2009.08.20 13:00 - I'm an avatar most of the time... probably

The Guardian for this meeting was Storm Nordwind. The comments are by Storm Nordwind.

Only eight cushions adorn the middle of the Pavilion. We nearly fill them all today, but not quite.

Bertram Jacobus: hello storm ... :-)
Storm Nordwind: Hello Bert
Storm Nordwind: .
Bertram Jacobus: why so few cushons today ?
Storm Nordwind: I'm not expecting many people! :) I can always add some later
Bertram Jacobus: okay ... did not know, that that can be changed ...
Storm Nordwind: It can all be changed by guardians. Traditionally the guardian whose slot it is has control, but any guardian can do it.
Bertram Jacobus: uh. i would not know how to do that when i for example shall do some sessions as temporary guardia or how you call that and not enough cushions would be here ...
Storm Nordwind reveals to Bertram the mystic arts of controlling the fountain, pool and cushions
Bertram Jacobus: okay. thanks :-)
Storm Nordwind: You are welcome :)
Storm Nordwind: This setting, with just 8 cushions, is quite cosy.
Bertram Jacobus: have to take the dictionary and search "reveal" ... ;-)
Bertram Jacobus: no : not have to - like to ! :-)
Storm Nordwind smiles
Bertram Jacobus: reveal - ok :-)
Storm Nordwind: We all learn so much here!
Bertram Jacobus: thats wonderful !
Storm Nordwind nods in agreement
Bertram Jacobus: and it´s my impression already, too -

Bertram asks about the first days of Play as Being.

Bertram Jacobus: how long do you already the pab thing ? :-)
Storm Nordwind: I was here from day 1
Bertram Jacobus: you started it with pema ?
Storm Nordwind: yes. He started it on April 1st last year. I was there on that day.
Storm Nordwind: It did not happen here, not in this building
Bertram Jacobus: i see - shouldn´t we change to the local chat again ?
Storm Nordwind: We are in local chat
Bertram Jacobus: ups lol ah oh äh ... :o)
Storm Nordwind chuckles
Bertram Jacobus: sometimes not so aware like one "should" ... :o)
Bertram Jacobus: hello qt ... :-)
Storm Nordwind: Hello Qt
Bertram Jacobus: and do you and pema know each other also in rl ? did you before the start here ?
Bertram Jacobus: hello shayama ... :-)
Qt Core: hi storm, bertram
Storm Nordwind: We met in SL. We have not yet met in RL. That will happen in a few days!

Surprisingly, though our relationship is so close, Pema and I have never yet met in real life. However, with the Play as Being retreat only a few days away, this will shortly be remedied. Meanwhile, we continue to chat a little about real life and Second Life.

Bertram Jacobus: hello hana ... :-)
--BELL--
Bertram Jacobus: oh. i see. great ! ... :-)
Bertram Jacobus: ups
Shyama Sheryffe: hi everyone
Hana Furlough: hi qt, storm and bert
Hana Furlough: hi shy
Storm Nordwind: Hi Shyama, Hana
Qt Core: hi
Bertram Jacobus: sometimes i think, it should be called fl for first life and not rl , because rl is this here in a certain way, too
Shyama Sheryffe: nods
Qt Core: agree
Storm Nordwind: I agree Bert. In fact if you look at anyone's profile, it says 1st life
Hana Furlough: how about (un)real life?
Storm Nordwind: And my own profile says (under 1st life) "For me there is little difference between SL and RL."
Bertram Jacobus: which one ? first or second or both ? ;-)
Hana Furlough: both i suppose, but for first it has more impact
Storm Nordwind: One of my Buddhist teachers claims that SL is meaningless activity. I tell her that it is just a means of expression and communication like many other media.
Shyama Sheryffe: why should it be meningless ?
Hana Furlough: does she think first life has meaning?
Storm Nordwind: She certainly thinks that one needs to make the most of one's precious human life.
Hana Furlough: i agree ad that's what we're all about here
Storm Nordwind: Yes. I expect I will convince her one day!
Bertram Jacobus: hey wol ! ... :-)
Storm Nordwind: Hi Wol!
Wol Euler: hello bertram, storm, shyama, qt, hana
Shyama Sheryffe: hi wol
Qt Core: Hi Wol
Hana Furlough: hi wol
Wol Euler: sorry to be late, please continue

Hana makes a significant observation about avatars and what is really real.

Hana Furlough: i was skeptical too
Hana Furlough: but that was before i realized that i'm an avatar most of the time in fl too
Wol Euler: :)
Storm Nordwind: Yes. And that's an important realisation.
Bertram Jacobus: you are hana ? can you say some more about that please !?
Hana Furlough: well
Bertram Jacobus: or somebody else (?) ... (for sure)
Hana Furlough: when i really appreciate Being i see that i am not defined by or confined to what i usually think i am or what i want
Bertram Jacobus: hmmm -
Wol Euler: hello ari
Bertram Jacobus: hi ari ... :-)
Arisia Vita: Hi all
Hana Furlough: hi ari
Shyama Sheryffe: hi ari :)
Hana Furlough: it's like i don't have to identify with concepts
Storm Nordwind: Hello Ari
Qt Core: hi Arisia
Bertram Jacobus: i see. so the traditional i is the ava ?
Hana Furlough: what traditional?
Bertram Jacobus: that what is normally called i
Storm Nordwind: perhaps an avatar is something we have, rather than something we are
Hana Furlough: yeah
Wol Euler: :)
Hana Furlough: it's something that we're getting caught up in constantly
Hana Furlough: rather than just appreciating and celebrating
Storm Nordwind: Nicely put Hana
Hana Furlough: thanks ;)
Qt Core: the instrument we use to interact with the world ?
Bertram Jacobus: (i meaned conventional, not traditional - is that more clear ? sry : again and again : my probs with english) ... :-/
Hana Furlough: exactly qt -- an instrument
Hana Furlough: oh yes bert
Hana Furlough: that's crystal clear~
Bertram Jacobus: wonderful. ty (eased) ... :-)

What is it that is "us"?

Shyama Sheryffe: our ego is like avatar ?
--BELL--
Qt Core: but saying so we end up saying our mind/soul/spirit is something different (and maybe even separated) from our body
Storm Nordwind: What do you think about that Qt? Do you think it is different and/or separated?
Hana Furlough: that's a great point qt
Shyama Sheryffe: isnt our ego body-mind ?
Wol Euler: the effectiveness of embodiment here, and the strong emotional attachment we feel for our avs nd each other, is pretty strong circumstantial evidence for a separation IMHO
Qt Core: i would like to think that as in the mind is separated, indipendent and "superior" but then everytime you see a dessert you like you discover it isn't ;-)
Bertram Jacobus: isn´t it so, that that is only a question of the point of view and from a so to say "absolute view" all is one and from a relative one - separatet and distinguishable ?
Hana Furlough: but to really appreciate the body, i feel like we need to bring our awareness to the body, leaving no separation
Bertram Jacobus: [ego = body - mind . very interesting] ! ... :-)
Shyama Sheryffe: but spirit is something separate ?
Hana Furlough: only when you start thinking it is
Bertram Jacobus: i wrote my consideration : may be a question of the point of view "only" -
Shyama Sheryffe: or should i say our egos seem to be separate like avatars although basically we r one whole
Bertram Jacobus: i think it´s nice to play separated - when it´s nice ... ;-)
Bertram Jacobus: but when it harms ...
Bertram Jacobus: not so easy

So how does PaB fit into all this?

Storm Nordwind: Does anyone think that Play as Being can give us any insights into this questions?
Hana Furlough: yeah
Wol Euler: maybe :)
Hana Furlough: this idea of letting life live through you
Bertram Jacobus: sorry - i didn´t get it : which question please ?
Shyama Sheryffe: nods to Hana
Storm Nordwind: I meant "question" as a general topic of conversation bert
Storm Nordwind: You sound doubtful Wol (?) :)
Wol Euler: not doubtful as such. It surely can do, if we go at it with that in mind.
Wol Euler: almost anything could, I think.
Bertram Jacobus: [ah, i read this question, but it may be meant these questions]
Storm Nordwind: That almost sounds, Wol, as though PaB is a koan.
Bertram Jacobus: my empathy not always seems to function perfect
Wol Euler: I'd rather say that it is a cross-headed screwdriver.
Wol Euler: you can do lots of really cool stuff with screwdrivers, if you use them well :)
Storm Nordwind smiles
Hana Furlough: lol nice
Wol Euler: it's a tool, and I think a very good one.
--BELL--

We learn about Wol's odd state of mind... perhaps!

Wol Euler: I'm in an odd state of mind, lately I find that "probably" or "maybe" is the right answer to nearly every question i hear.
Qt Core: maybe is a great answer to many question
Storm Nordwind: That sounds a very positive and optimistic state of mind... if one asks the right question! ;)
Wol Euler: :)
Wol Euler: well, it doesn't apply to all questions. "Do you want a pickle and chili pepper milkshake?" um, no.
Shyama Sheryffe: maybe...
Wol Euler: I was afraid of that :)
Storm Nordwind: I can think of places to put such a beverage, usually involving politicians! ;)
Wol Euler laughs
Shyama Sheryffe: u should try everything once..lol
Bertram Jacobus: i would like if politicians would experience more help ...
Shyama Sheryffe: well maybe almost everything...
Hana Furlough: thanks for a beautiful discussion everyone
Hana Furlough: bye for now
Bertram Jacobus: have a good time hana
Qt Core: bye hana
Wol Euler: bye hana, take care.
Shyama Sheryffe: i must leave too
Storm Nordwind waves
Shyama Sheryffe: bye everyone
Storm Nordwind: Bye!
Wol Euler: bye shyama
Bertram Jacobus: bye shayama then ...
Qt Core: bye shyama
Storm Nordwind: It must have been something in the milkshake

We discuss absolutist tendencies.

Wol Euler: I think my use of "maybe" is a reluctance to surrender to the suggestion that life has binary yes/no outcomes
Storm Nordwind: Fuzzy logic rules... maybe
Wol Euler: :)
Wol Euler: there seems so much absolutist thought in the world lately, or perhaps I just feel that way...
Storm Nordwind: There certainly seems to be more in some places rather than others.
Storm Nordwind thinks about his new home
Wol Euler nods
Qt Core: it is so easyer to see everything in black and white
Wol Euler: true, which is why it happens. But doing so is essentially false.
Storm Nordwind: I disagree Qt. I think that is an acquired/trained habit
Wol Euler: (in most cases, in my opinion)
Wol Euler grins. I think you're both right :)
Storm Nordwind: A look at fuzzy logic will illustrate...
Bertram Jacobus: i think, there is both : duality AND diversity
Storm Nordwind: People do not divide the world into tall people and not-tall people...
Storm Nordwind: They say, He is fairly tall, she is very short, he is moderately tall. It is all subjective and in context.
Storm Nordwind: And someone can fit into the short class and the tall class at the same time!
Wol Euler: ah, I think I have seen something. Storm, you are talking about fuzziness of observation; QT and I were addressing (unconsiously in my case) judgements.
Qt Core: yes, but i'm thinking more about situation when you have to "decide" if something/someone is right or wrong
Wol Euler: exactly :)

But what is "observation"? Is it possible to observe without judgement? The answer seems to me to be yes, though we are trained to relinquish that at an early age. Thus, unless we have learned to appreciate the presence of appearance, or engaged in phenomenological experiments, our observations are so often coloured by judgements.

Storm Nordwind: Observation is not absolute either... or is it? ;)
Qt Core: and evenm in the tall/short area you can have the "fixed" point of your own height for deciding where tall start and short end
Storm Nordwind: Yes it's subjective... but you could say someone was a little short and moderately tall at the same time
Storm Nordwind: So the boundary is not an absolute. It is fuzzy
--BELL--
Qt Core: that is if you detach yourself from it
Storm Nordwind: Many people seem to believe (especially in some parts of the world) if they are right, then any other opinions on the subject must be wrong.
Storm Nordwind: But that need not be so
Bertram Jacobus: i´ll leave. ty for the talk. may all beings be happy -
Qt Core: hi bertran
Storm Nordwind bows to Bertram
Wol Euler: 'night bertram.sleep well
Bertram Jacobus: ty again all :-)
Storm Nordwind: I like this slot... so many thinking Europeans around! :)
Wol Euler: :)
Wol Euler: this is mid-fternoon for you now?
Storm Nordwind: It is 3pm yes
Storm Nordwind: A good time before I drive to pick up my wife from work
Wol Euler: ah :)
Wol Euler ponders.

The 13:00 slot is indeed good for Europeans. It starts at 9pm or 10pm (or perhaps 11pm) and that's why I originally volunteered for this slot while I was still in Europe. Now I am on Mountain Time, it is still good for me, and I can keep in touch with old friends.

Storm Nordwind has made the mistake again of forgetting about Stim's workshop at this time!
Wol Euler: oops.
Wol Euler: off you go :)
Qt Core: run run
Storm Nordwind watches the tumbleweed as no one moves ... ... ... ... @ ... ... ... ... @ ... ... ...
Wol Euler: hmm, you didn't say that _we_ had forgotten about it.
Storm Nordwind smiles
Storm Nordwind: No, but I like to remind everyone.
Wol Euler: :)
Storm Nordwind: I still associate workshops with evenings, not mid-afternoons
Wol Euler: ah, yes. that will take a while to become habitual :)
Wol Euler: where were we?
Wol Euler: being fuzzy about observation and quite rigid about judgement/opinion
Storm Nordwind: maybe
Wol Euler: :)
Wol Euler: it seems to me that the rigid judgers conflate their opinions with their _selves_
Wol Euler: if you reject my opinion, you are rejecting _me_ personally.
Storm Nordwind resists the temptation to suggest that is a rigid judgment
Storm Nordwind: You're right. I am sure that is something many do. But I suspect it's not limited to rigid judgers.
Wol Euler: no, just a fuzzy observation.
Storm Nordwind: I recall an example of that here very recently
Wol Euler: remind us?
Storm Nordwind: 24 hours ago
--BELL--
Wol Euler smiles. I thought you meant that.

Qt now discloses a linguistic phenomenon that I find absoluely fascinating. :)

Qt Core: (thinking about the different way italian and english ue to state that people are saying something wrong)
Storm Nordwind: Please illustrate Qt
Qt Core: the english form "you are wrong" don't really specify if the idea or the person is wrong
Wol Euler nods
Qt Core: italian use the verb "to be" for the person (very rude i may add and not even nice on a grammatical level)
Qt Core: and the "to have" verb for the idea as in you did something wrong
Storm Nordwind: Wonderful. I like that!
Qt Core: so, maybe, in english is easyer to take it personally
Wol Euler: mmhmm
Wol Euler: that fits.
Storm Nordwind: So does that mean that in Italy we will find evidence of more tolerance of ideas than in the UK or the US?
Qt Core: to explain it better we have the verb "sbagliare", "to wrong"
Qt Core: no, i don't think, we only have a way that could help if people would make an effort ;-)
Wol Euler: ... but if they would make an effort, any way would work :)
Qt Core: :)
Wol Euler: the problem is in the desire for a work-free short-cut solution
Wol Euler: (applies to many situations of personal and political life!)
Storm Nordwind nods

It still comes down to wanting to make that difference after all.

Qt Core: i have to go, bye
Wol Euler: 'night, qt. sleep well
Storm Nordwind: Good night Qt
Storm Nordwind: Perhaps I should see about putting up this log, rather than gazing out at Pike's Peak 55 miles away!
Wol Euler smiles. Let's call it a night, or an afternoon, then.
Storm Nordwind: hehe
Wol Euler: I'll adjust the flower and go to bed.
Storm Nordwind: Thank you. A delight to see you as always
Wol Euler: likewise!
Wol Euler: take care, be happy.
Wol Euler: play well.
Storm Nordwind: You too!