2009.08.22 01:00 - Karma

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Scathach Rhiadra. The comments are by Scathach Rhiadra.

    Bertram Jacobus: hello scath and arch :-)
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Bertram, arch
    Archmage Atlantis: hello
    Archmage Atlantis: bertram
    Archmage Atlantis: Hello and nice to meet you scath
    Scathach Rhiadra: nice to meet you too:)
    Scathach Rhiadra: so how are you both today?
    Bertram Jacobus: the morning is still very young here - so it is fine, ty. and you ? :-)
    Archmage Atlantis: I like that quote, ""Things are not what they appear to be: nor are they otherwise." Surangama Sutra\
    Archmage Atlantis: It is 4
    Scathach Rhiadra: i am fine too thank you
    Archmage Atlantis: am here
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes it is a great quote
    Archmage Atlantis: And I am well thank you
    Bertram Jacobus: whaow - that´s a strange time for being at the computer !
    Bertram Jacobus: hello yaku ... :-)
    Scathach Rhiadra: hello Yakuzza
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey scath,bert,arch
    Archmage Atlantis: Not if you are me *chuckle*
    Archmage Atlantis: Hiya Yak
    Bertram Jacobus: lol okay. and when, then is your normal sleeping time arch ? :-)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: 4 am in fl right now ?
    Bertram Jacobus: for me 10, for arch 4. yes yaku :-)
    Archmage Atlantis: The last few weeks it has been primarily in the afternoon, between 3 PM and whenever I wake up.....I've given up trying to change it, now I accept
    Archmage Atlantis: 'And work around it
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i only do early shift, i ,,always" have to get up at 4:30 in the morning so even during days off i can´t sleep longer then 6-7 am
    Bertram Jacobus: what is the reason for that unusual rhythm arch ?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: but i for example have to be in bed at 11-12 pm or i fall asleep :)
    Archmage Atlantis: Could be many things, meds, meetings I chose to attend on
    Yakuzza Lethecus: thats even why i sleept away during the 1pm session here often :)
    Archmage Atlantis: SL and the fact that those I care about here all on all different schedules
    Bertram Jacobus: okayy ... i see ...
    Scathach Rhiadra: ah, that explains a lot Yakuzza:))
    Archmage Atlantis: It's better for my conditions to be in bed when I sleep, rather than sliding off a chair asleep at the computer *smile*
    Bertram Jacobus: :o)
    Scathach Rhiadra nods
    Yakuzza Lethecus: ah, you can connect modern televisons with your computer :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: and use a wireless keyboard
    Yakuzza Lethecus: and you´ll see how fast you might fall asleep from the couch :)
    Archmage Atlantis: Thanks for the thoughts Yak.......I deal with this stuff all the time, let's talk about something else
    Scathach Rhiadra: any body have a topic?
    Archmage Atlantis: This is the most folks I've seen at the 1AM meeting in a few days
    Archmage Atlantis: Actually, I do
    Bertram Jacobus: perhaps we could take again the quote from arch from before ? : "Archmage Atlantis: I like that quote, ""Things are not what they appear to be: nor are they otherwise." Surangama Sutra\" ? :-)
    Archmage Atlantis: Sure, that would be good
    Archmage Atlantis: How did you come to choose that quote
    Bertram Jacobus: i read a lot of stuff at the moment which encloses many of such quotes ...
    Archmage Atlantis: Scath?
    Scathach Rhiadra: mmm, I can't remember really, probably read it a few years ago and it stuck in my mind
    Archmage Atlantis: I relate it to my understanding of enlightenment which is - In this exact moment all things are as they are meant to be"\
    Scathach Rhiadra nods
    Scathach Rhiadra: can you say more?
    Bertram Jacobus: for me, still (?) things appear very much as that which they seem to be (!) ... ;-)
    Archmage Atlantis: Hmmm, I might can......if it comes to me
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes Bertram
    Bertram Jacobus: one the one hand at least. on the other one i study all the teachings to that topics and try to look at these aspects ...
    Archmage Atlantis: Perhaps for some, enlightenment is a continuous state of being
    Archmage Atlantis: For me, it is intermittent
    Archmage Atlantis: Of a specific moment
    Scathach Rhiadra: for me it would be being awake to your true nature
    Bertram Jacobus: and for me the end of suffering
    Archmage Atlantis: Yes, that is encapsulated in my understanding
    Archmage Atlantis: Ah, suffering
    Archmage Atlantis: An interesting topic
    Bertram Jacobus: a terrible one ! ;-)
    Archmage Atlantis: If one suffers in the moment, and all things are in that momemt as they are meant to be,......then the tools of logic argues for suffering as a state of being that should be in that instant
    Archmage Atlantis: To which one must ask, does suffering serve a purpose
    Scathach Rhiadra: mmm, suffering could be seen as our exoereince without being awake to our true nature
    Archmage Atlantis: I like that
    Archmage Atlantis: Scath
    Scathach Rhiadra: so really seeing what is in any moment can be an end to suffering, in that moment
    Archmage Atlantis: So, extending that comment, suffering could serve as a guide to our true nature
    Bertram Jacobus: by the way : i always "stumble" when the word "nature" is used in such coherences, because natus, -a, -um means "born" (!) and especially here it´s said, that the "true nature" or similar descriptions - are not born (!) or existing in a conventional way ...
    Scathach Rhiadra: um, would reality be a better word maybe?
    Archmage Atlantis: here I would easily substitute "essense" for "nature"
    Scathach Rhiadra: what we really are?
    Archmage Atlantis: Yes, without the illusion of RL, SL or whatever L
    Bertram Jacobus: "being" for example ...
    Scathach Rhiadra nods
    Bertram Jacobus: does anyone here not suffer anymore ?
    Archmage Atlantis: I know of no human who does not suffer......even the great teachers
    Archmage Atlantis: The suffering is just of a different order/state of "to suffer"
    Scathach Rhiadra: :) even the Buddha at the end of his life called that time the 'time of being held together by bandages', so he experienced pain like everyone else, but...
    Scathach Rhiadra: I think he did not suffer, so to speak, because he was awake to what is, or things 'as they are', so not grasping or clinging to false ideas
    Bertram Jacobus: may be. "okay". another question : in your daily life, do you see more psychic or physical pain ?
    Scathach Rhiadra: a good question
    Archmage Atlantis: I agree, Scatch, that he probably did not suffer as those less enlightened might in his essense, but he was human....There is always new understanding that can cause one to suffer if one cannot accept
    Scathach Rhiadra nods
    Scathach Rhiadra: what do you think Bertram, physical or psychic pain is more pronounced in life?
    Archmage Atlantis: Bertram, was it you who brought up the issues with the word "geist" the other day?
    Bertram Jacobus: yes arch. i guess so
    Bertram Jacobus: 8and thinking* about scath´s question) ...
    Archmage Atlantis: Sorry this body demands attention, brb
    Bertram Jacobus: i think, normally the physical ones scath, because they are more accepted, but that is not the most important aspect of that topic to me. to me it´s more important, what is more felt to the individuals : psycic or physical pain ...
    Scathach Rhiadra nods
    Bertram Jacobus: and for me personally, its very obvious the psycic one - would like to know, how that is with others ...
    Scathach Rhiadra: I would agree Bertram, the pain we experience internally is much more prevelant
    Bertram Jacobus: prevelant ? could you say another word please ? don´t know and find it ... :-/
    Scathach Rhiadra: mmm, noticed, or to the fromt?
    Bertram Jacobus: ah ok. ty. :-)
    Scathach Rhiadra: I probably spelt it incorrectly anyway:))
    Bertram Jacobus: ah ! :o)
    Bertram Jacobus: but the textes i read at the moment say also again and again, there were no "internal" or "external" in the end ... ;-)
    Archmage Atlantis: back, and "again and again" is a good translation for prevalent......for psychic pain is much
    Archmage Atlantis: like throwing oneself over and and over at the same stone barries
    Archmage Atlantis: barrrier
    Bertram Jacobus: aahh - prevalent ! ty ! (now i found it) :-)
    Archmage Atlantis: and expecting it to be different somehow
    Scathach Rhiadra: um, but that may be when you are in a continous state of being awake, or aware, but we have to work with where we are at this moment
    Scathach Rhiadra: *at any moment
    Archmage Atlantis: Very much truth Scath
    Bertram Jacobus: yes. on the one hand again scath. but on the other it´s like a kind of taste when i read thoses textes. and that´s so ... i like to say : healing
    Scathach Rhiadra: /nme nods, yes like pointers
    Archmage Atlantis: Aw, good answer Scath, I wondered what you would respond with
    Scathach Rhiadra: ha:)
    Bertram Jacobus: but for me it´s more : i feel inspiredand even more : as if a tiny realisation would come with it. which gets lost fast again mostly but. but nevertheless ! -
    Bertram Jacobus: that´s much more then a pointer
    Archmage Atlantis: Then Bertram, you have been blessed
    Scathach Rhiadra: I agree Bertram, and those glimpses show us what is possible, inspire us to continue with practice
    Bertram Jacobus: i feel so, very much. but on the other hand i suffer very strong in daily life ...
    Bertram Jacobus: yes scath. exactly
    Archmage Atlantis: For the future, whatever that concept ma mean, you will come to see that suffering is your choice
    Archmage Atlantis: *may
    Bertram Jacobus: but habits are no actual choices anymore i think
    Scathach Rhiadra nods to Bertram
    Archmage Atlantis: As, although I do not and cannot know this, you are likely in a struggle with your true essence
    Bertram Jacobus: hard to say. i think i´m "still"a bit" blind at that "area" ... (should i laugh or cry now?) ... ;-)
    Archmage Atlantis: Or it could just be digestive gas from food choices, who know?
    Scathach Rhiadra: being locked in to our habits stops us from really acting by choice, in an enlightened way, I think
    Bertram Jacobus: lol arch :o)
    Bertram Jacobus: nicely expressed ! :o)
    Archmage Atlantis: ty
    Bertram Jacobus: i think, one can choose even when habits are still stongly, more or less, a factor in our lives. both then goes hand in hand. and enlightenment ... we all know the descriptions i think
    Bertram Jacobus: choices AND habits
    Bertram Jacobus: are two aspects of karma in my understanding
    Bertram Jacobus: the causes and the efforts
    Bertram Jacobus: effects, sorry, not effords
    Archmage Atlantis: habit = effort for you?
    Archmage Atlantis: Ah
    Bertram Jacobus: sorry, wrong word :-(
    Archmage Atlantis: Even then, I would not equate habit with effect, or effort.....
    Bertram Jacobus: i didn´t do that ! i set it in relation to causes
    Bertram Jacobus: okay - effects, too ... ;-)
    Bertram Jacobus: sorry telephone here
    Archmage Atlantis: For me, habit is a learned response to something in life ..... we learned it because it worked for us in the past
    Archmage Atlantis: Now it no longer works so well
    Scathach Rhiadra: so like habitual tendencies?
    Archmage Atlantis: Certainly, although it can be as simple as always looking in the place where one used to keep the can opener
    Archmage Atlantis: Especially, if one's ex always put it back in that drawer for both of you
    Archmage Atlantis: But since we tend to be a bit more exoteric in our discussions, I'd say "habitual tendencies" works quite nicely
    Archmage Atlantis: *esoteric
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Bertram Jacobus: but what you say is not necessairily an opposite mark arch i think. you describe the function and i meant "habit" from the sight of "karma" ...
    Bertram Jacobus: and in context of coices ...
    Scathach Rhiadra: if I react to some situations with anger, I 'become' an angry person, more likely to react with anger in future situations, the tendency builds up
    Scathach Rhiadra: but if I can catch myself reacting that way, see it in the moment, I have a choice not to get lost in the reaction, so to speak
    Yakuzza Lethecus: good morning star :)
    Bertram Jacobus: hello star ! late arrival ... ;-)
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Stat
    Scathach Rhiadra: *Star
    Stargate Tone: Good morning Yakuzza; Bert; Scat and my bro :)***
    Bertram Jacobus: yes scath
    Scathach Rhiadra: unfortunately, I must go now, thank you all for a great discussion:)
    Archmage Atlantis: Greetings sister Star
    Bertram Jacobus: ah. then have a good day scath ! :-)
    Stargate Tone: _/!\_ to Scath
    Scathach Rhiadra: have a good day Bertram, Arch, Yakuzza, Star:)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye scath
    Archmage Atlantis: I've enjoyed your comments and your presence Scath
    Archmage Atlantis: Blessings be
    Scathach Rhiadra: ty, it was very nice meeting you too:)
    Archmage Atlantis: And bye for now
    Bertram Jacobus: and arch ? i would like to ask : what did you mean with "struggle with my true essence" and how could i do better ?
    Archmage Atlantis: Let me try to say this correctly
    Archmage Atlantis: I drew some "conclusions" based in part on my own path, and in part on things you said........Intense daily suffering for me ususally means I am attempting to go down the wrong path for me
    Archmage Atlantis: It may be the one "approved" by family and friends and society
    Archmage Atlantis: But for me it is incorrect
    Archmage Atlantis: That is all I meant
    Bertram Jacobus: i see. okay. ty !
    Archmage Atlantis: My pleasure
    Archmage Atlantis: To share value is a gift
    Bertram Jacobus: the "sangha aspect" ? ...
    Archmage Atlantis: You should know I am not a
    Bertram Jacobus: community in english (*laugh a bit*) ... :o)
    Archmage Atlantis: Buddhist, so sometimes I have to look up a reference ....Like "sangha aspect" .... or ask you to explain
    Bertram Jacobus: sure - sry - i wrote it : sangha = community. well known also in christian circles (?) ...
    Stargate Tone: sangha is gathering together to learn from each other
    Stargate Tone: and ...well...like I use to say, that no matter if people were talking about the wearther only; that's the gathering that accouts
    Stargate Tone: accounts....means...
    Bertram Jacobus: hello ludwig ... :-)
    Archmage Atlantis: Must have missing going around in that circle, yikes....there are circles, in our circles, in our circles.......Old Carol Burnett show
    Stargate Tone: hello lugwig
    ludwig Melodie: bonjours a tous
    Bertram Jacobus: sry. this i don´t know : madame burnett ... :o)
    Archmage Atlantis: Bonjours Ludwig
    Archmage Atlantis: brb (again)!
    Bertram Jacobus: i did not meet you before ludwig (?) - you come here already since a longer time ? :-)
    ludwig Melodie: je ne comprend pas le sens de ta question
    Stargate Tone: are you ludwig the first time in PaB ?
    Stargate Tone: (thought you met on Hikari)
    Bertram Jacobus: ah pardon. mon francais nést pas très bien ... les conversations ici sont recorded et nous regard les gents pour leurs accords ou non (?)
    ludwig Melodie: oui
    Stargate Tone: feels soooo good that you can speak french Bert :)***
    Bertram Jacobus: tu autorise les records de toi contributions ici ludwig ?
    Bertram Jacobus: my french is VERY poor only for sake ...
    ludwig Melodie: oui
    Bertram Jacobus: merci beaucoup :-)
    Stargate Tone: btw; did I Bert understand that you spoke in a way about 'to be the rebel' in surrouding society ?...to do something not approved by 'it' ?
    Stargate Tone: ...or 'be' something not approved ?
    Bertram Jacobus: no. sry :o)
    Stargate Tone: ah ok
    Bertram Jacobus: okay - i spoke about much suffering - that led arch to the idea, that there something is not approved by me i think - and he may be right with that
    Stargate Tone: _/!\_
    Bertram Jacobus: but i have only little ideas what that could be ...
    Stargate Tone: ...how U suffer for other people's suffering ....I assume...
    Bertram Jacobus: not only that. also more simple : i´m unhappy about some impressions i get from the actual society and so on ... *sigh*
    Stargate Tone: *
    Bertram Jacobus: not some, many i should say
    Stargate Tone: _/!\_
    Stargate Tone: understand
    Bertram Jacobus: nice. ty. like the buddha already explained : about the suffering ...
    Bertram Jacobus: i feel, that not being enlightened is suffering
    Stargate Tone: as yes; that is the desire of your golden heart that people would feel better than how they do
    Bertram Jacobus: absolutely , yes , that also ("may all people be happy") (!) ...
    Archmage Atlantis: Being back, may I venture a theory
    Stargate Tone: _/!\_
    Stargate Tone: wb my bro :)*
    Bertram Jacobus: sure - although i´m not the one to give permissions ...
    Stargate Tone: lol
    Bertram Jacobus: :o)
    Archmage Atlantis: Bertram, is what you wish most fervently to escape your own suffering?
    Bertram Jacobus: (*thinking*) ...
    Bertram Jacobus: i don´t know
    Archmage Atlantis: My impression Bertam is that you see your path, but you resist is
    Archmage Atlantis: *it
    Bertram Jacobus: my impressions are that many things are dissoling in my life in theses days - and weeks and months ...
    Bertram Jacobus: dissolving*
    Bertram Jacobus: all i could say could be wrong
    Bertram Jacobus: very few fixed
    Bertram Jacobus: it´s okay and it hurts
    Stargate Tone: _/!\_
    Bertram Jacobus: it´s unusual
    Bertram Jacobus: strange
    Bertram Jacobus: i don´t know much these days ("on the one hand")
    Stargate Tone: ah; so healthy phase :)*
    Bertram Jacobus: would be nice. thnaks for your healing words star
    Stargate Tone: well...as I know that Arch can also see very clearly....but the word 'resist' is difficult for me to 'connect' with you Bert
    Stargate Tone: but...well...as I know it's hard for us to 'give to ourself'....that's in a way to resist
    Stargate Tone: ...meaning that it's often the struggle that we dont let ourself to do....
    Stargate Tone: but...well...I'de 'call' you Bert also to 'be the pioneer'....
    Yakuzza Lethecus: ok, bye everyone, it was interesting again
    Stargate Tone: and that means that we should let ourself to do more easy what ever our heart desires
    Bertram Jacobus: bye yaku - have a good time
    Stargate Tone: wishing nice time to you Yakuzza :)***
    ludwig Melodie: bonne jounée yakussa
    Stargate Tone: hm
    Bertram Jacobus: star ? for example : this afternoon will be here a neighbour party on the street. i don´t like to go there but think i should - what do you think about that ?
    Bertram Jacobus: what should i do !?
    Stargate Tone: that you shouldn't go there if you dont want to do that
    Bertram Jacobus: hm
    Stargate Tone: that's one way to 'be the rebel'....
    Bertram Jacobus: but i feel that may be poor-spirited
    Bertram Jacobus: in this and my "case"
    Stargate Tone: so; that is one example what Arch ment
    Bertram Jacobus: sure. i know.
    Stargate Tone: you hasitate to stay home for them other people
    Bertram Jacobus: but it could have disadvantages if i don´t go there. both may cause disadvantages : to go there or not to do it. only the question, which is less bad. - all samsara ...
    Stargate Tone: understand that verrry well
    Stargate Tone: but
    Stargate Tone: you are the only person with whom you must life your whole life
    Stargate Tone: so;
    Stargate Tone: if you give attention to your needs; not to go there
    Stargate Tone: that's to give value to yourself *
    Bertram Jacobus: ok i see
    Bertram Jacobus: ty
    Stargate Tone: and yes; verrry important to do
    Stargate Tone: ...to do against oneself....no matter for what reason...it's the most hard question...
    Bertram Jacobus: question ?
    Stargate Tone: but if one always does what other people want's one to do; that's desaster
    Stargate Tone: ah yes
    ludwig Melodie: on doit faire que que nous penson juste pour nous
    ludwig Melodie: sans nuire aux autres
    Stargate Tone: yea; that I mean; as there's always much such that is must to compromise
    Stargate Tone: more easy to find a pillow now ?
    Bertram Jacobus: it´s fine. ty :-)
    Stargate Tone: smiles *
    Stargate Tone: as I also mostly feel the need to find the harmony how to sit here :)***
    Bertram Jacobus: "yes" :-)
    Stargate Tone: and that is what we miss, but sometimes there's need to 'brake' something that the harmony can appear
    Stargate Tone: ...that's in my mind to 'be the rebel' and the pioneer
    Bertram Jacobus: i see
    Bertram Jacobus: interesting
    Bertram Jacobus: and i take a braek now you nice people. thank you for being here
    Stargate Tone: was nice to met you again *
    Bertram Jacobus: have a good day and may all beings be happy please#+
    Stargate Tone: wishing you to have fun your way while other people have fun there way :)*
    Bertram Jacobus: very nice wish. ty again
    Stargate Tone: _/!\_

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