2009.08.23 13:00 - Follow-up to the Guardian's dilemma

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    Wol Euler recovered this session from the autologging database.





    Maxine Walden: hi, Paul

    Paul Namiboo: Hi Kira

    Maxine Walden: nice to see you again

    Paul Namiboo: Nice to be back

    Paul Namiboo: I've been working with a friend on the following problem -- how can we get people to be more thoughtful of the decendants they can't know -- those that appear after we're gone from both SL and FL?

    Maxine Walden: be right back, Paul

    Maxine Walden: ok, back

    Maxine Walden: oh, oh. have to check the stove again. thought I had turned it off, be back in a second

    Paul Namiboo: I just went and got more of my lunch!

    Maxine Walden: OK, we both had to go for a bit.

    Maxine Walden: Not sure what your question is Paul . Maybe you could say a bit more

    Maxine Walden: hi, Yakuzza

    Maxine Walden: nice to see you again

    Paul Namiboo: So many of our actions today are likely going to have their biggest impact on those who live in the future, climate disruption beings the most discussed currently. But so manyof us don't seem to care -- it's a problem that economists have struggled with some, the issue of how much we discont the future.

    Paul Namiboo: Hi Yakuzza -- sorry I was blabbing and not paying attention.

    Yakuzza Lethecus: paul ur microphone is still active

    Yakuzza Lethecus: np

    Yakuzza Lethecus: ur really 77 by the way ?

    Yakuzza Lethecus: i read a chatlog and was impressed :)

    Maxine Walden: Paul, maybe we can begin to think together about how to preserve caring and how easily memory is lost

    Paul Namiboo: Yeah, but I feel more like 40 inside my head -- my back is another issue!

    Maxine Walden: Paul, you might close your mike, most of us use text and it could be a bit distracting

    Paul Namiboo: Did I get the mike off -- I'm a newby.

    Paul Namiboo: How do I turn it off??

    Maxine Walden: OK, go to the right hand side of the lower bar to where it says 'talk'

    Maxine Walden: And click on the little lock...that should turn off the mike

    Paul Namiboo: tried that

    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey pila

    Maxine Walden: hmmm, maybe we can ask Pila, he knows a lot about the SL stuff

    Maxine Walden: Pila, hi

    Pila Mulligan: hi Yak,Paul and Maxine

    Maxine Walden: we may need your help: Paul is having trouble turning off his mike; he said he tried clicking on the 'talk' button...maybe you could help

    Paul Namiboo: Hi Pila -- is my mike still on?

    Pila Mulligan: just a sec please - rl phone call




    Pila Mulligan: back, thanks -- Paul the little voice indicator is not showing over your avi's head -- so it seems your SL voice feature is off

    Yakuzza Lethecus: paul: can you just press "ctrl + p" then voicechat and klick the checkbox activate voice chat

    Yakuzza Lethecus: i can still hear him

    Paul Namiboo: I'll try not to be a distraction in the future -- sorry!

    Yakuzza Lethecus: but you don't have one pila :)

    Pila Mulligan: I'm on a system wihtout speakers, so I cannot tell :)

    Maxine Walden: yes, think your mike is on, Paul. Can you follow Yaku's suggestion?

    Yakuzza Lethecus: but nevermind i turnd the sl volume down

    Pila Mulligan: hi Isadora

    Maxine Walden: OK, here come others.

    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey isa and ara

    Maxine Walden: Hi, Isadora and Arabella

    Pila Mulligan: hi arabella

    arabella Ella: hiya everyone

    Yakuzza Lethecus: maxine you had a topic

    Paul Namiboo: I tried the lock again and it indicates off again -- did that work?

    Isadora Davidov: Hello everyone

    Pila Mulligan: maybe disconnect the microphone as a last resort?

    Maxine Walden: Maybe I can just say something that I learned from our chat last week and which is on the chatlog for last Sunday at this time.

    Paul Namiboo: Hi isadora and whoever I misssed

    Yakuzza Lethecus: he got a laptop i guess because his typing was so clear :)

    Isadora Davidov: Hello

    Yakuzza Lethecus: but it's fine now

    Yakuzza Lethecus: thx paul i guess you did it :)

    arabella Ella: Hi Paul!

    Pila Mulligan: hi Steve

    arabella Ella: Hiya Steve

    stevenaia Michinaga: hello

    Yakuzza Lethecus: crap, its still there :(

    Maxine Walden: We got into what became a 'bar room' discussion, not a contemplative one...following rather intense thoughts about political things.

    Paul Namiboo: Hi Arabella -- it's wonderful having great minds teaching me to use SL

    stevenaia Michinaga: seems to be some noisy typsts

    Pila Mulligan: :)

    Maxine Walden: I felt I learned a lesson on that, being the guardian, and the lesson was for us to try to keep our discussions around meditative/contemplative topics, not to dip into issues which could easily polarize us and so stop generative thinking togehter.

    Yakuzza Lethecus: did you click on apply after you unchecked the checkbox deactivate voice chat ?

    Isadora Davidov: Oh... I recall, that topic brought out some strong emotional responses, in the sense that I supposed that even if someone wanted to express a political point of view...it would be in a sort of civil or more detached tone

    Pila Mulligan: your comments with the posted chat log from last week nicely described the concern, Maxine -- thanks for mentioning it here

    Paul Namiboo: Where is apply -- when I piut curson on lock it says "click to get voice mode" -- If I can't turn off, I'll leve

    Pila Mulligan: I'm afraid you're beyond my skill level Paul :)

    stevenaia Michinaga: try lower right "talk" click it should turn off your ability to "talk"

    Maxine Walden: (interesting we have different levels of discourse right now: a practical one of helping Paul turn off his mike and then the issue of our topics of conversation. This often happens in these discussions, and seeing if we can manage these different threads is often interesting

    stevenaia Michinaga: (jsut guessing)

    Maxine Walden: yes, if you try, Paul, to click on the little lock in that 'talk' button at the lower right of your screen it might deactivate your mike

    Paul Namiboo: Tried that again -- is it off??

    Maxine Walden: think so...

    Paul Namiboo: Really sorry

    Pila Mulligan: :)

    stevenaia Michinaga: how would we know, we can;t hear you

    Maxine Walden: not a problem, Paul, we all do this with each other...

    Yakuzza Lethecus: it's fine thats one of the most common problems :)

    stevenaia Michinaga: no it;s still on...

    Paul Namiboo: What's not contemplative about thinking of our future descendants -- seems to me something we all should do?

    Maxine Walden: maybe we can live with Paul's mike being on...and go on with other thoughts? Paul, your question?

    Pila Mulligan: it is a practical aspect, isn;t it

    stevenaia Michinaga: we can all turn our sound down , or turn Pauls volume down




    Pila Mulligan: Maxine, n aside, have you guys started the RL pre-retreat dinners?

    Paul Namiboo: But how we should live always has a practical aspect, doesn't it?

    Pila Mulligan: yes, indeed, Paul

    Maxine Walden: the pre-retreat dinners have begun, Pila, but I will not join the group til tomorrow morning, so not sure how they are going...wish I were there of course

    Pila Mulligan: me too :)

    arabella Ella: me too :)

    Isadora Davidov: I went to dinner last night; it was delightful and surprising (naturally)

    Pila Mulligan: how surprising Isadora?

    arabella Ella: apologies ... Ara has a mind of her own, cant understand why she got up and gave a lil dance :)

    Pila Mulligan: :)

    Isadora Davidov: well, meeting in RL is sort of inherently surprising...in such a good way...such talented and accomplished peopele

    arabella Ella: is anyone here going to join the retreat ... besides Maxine of course

    Isadora Davidov: people

    Isadora Davidov: I am

    Pila Mulligan: meat people, as Wol said, in comparison with SL avis

    arabella Ella: how lovely :)

    Isadora Davidov: ys, I thinki it's fortunate I can attend

    arabella Ella: (not meat ppl, more Isa's attendance)

    Pila Mulligan: :) yep

    stevenaia Michinaga: I heard corvi is delayed in Denver and won;t be joining you tonight

    stevenaia Michinaga: if you can pass that on

    Isadora Davidov: Oh, goodness...yes I will

    arabella Ella: it all sounds so exciting I so wish I could have made it too

    Maxine Walden: different levels of joining here maybe: some physically at the retreat; others in spirit, and some of us with certain topics and questions while others have different things to bring...

    arabella Ella: :)

    stevenaia Michinaga: an excitng mix

    Maxine Walden: maybe we are all trying to join or see how we fit in, or not, a lot of the time in SL as well as in RL

    arabella Ella nods

    Isadora Davidov: THe most interesting thingabout meeting in RL was not so much the person exactly (although very nice)...but their bodies of knowledge, I would say the result of in-depth work and study

    Maxine Walden: it can be surprising to discover the depth of thought and experience amongs the folks here in SL

    Pila Mulligan: how many were at the dinner Isadora?

    arabella Ella: I also think it is interesting as I always feel that via chat we get to know the real essence of the person without any outside image or distractions

    Maxine Walden: yes, interesting, ara

    Isadora Davidov: There were 5 altogether

    Pila Mulligan: fun

    Isadora Davidov: Yes it was!

    Pila Mulligan: and adozen will be at the retreat I heard

    arabella Ella: we succeed in dissolving so many boundaries on SL which re-occur in RL ... geography, status, etc

    Maxine Walden: and maybe in SL we can get around the emotional issues which can so divide us, think that is what you are suggesting, ara

    arabella Ella: yes that too

    Isadora Davidov: Yes, Ara., I think that is one of the attractive benefits

    arabella Ella: I get the feeling ... and hope ... you will all get to see the real persons once you meet, as opposed to each person's external image

    Maxine Walden: yes, hope so, ara.

    arabella Ella: a true meeting of minds :)

    stevenaia Michinaga: what impressions did you take with you from the first meeting in Princeton last October, Maxine?

    Isadora Davidov: I would probably never encounter the participants in RL

    Maxine Walden: Let me think, steve, maybe you have some impressions to share from that last retreat

    stevenaia Michinaga: the most unexpected "thing" that I took with me was that the avatars now carried with them their RL physical presence whenever I encountred them, at least the image of their RL-ness

    arabella Ella: :)

    Maxine Walden: yes, another dimension sor of or image...also how similar some of the avs were to their rl 'typists'




    stevenaia Michinaga: ThreeDee is a lion and lovely retired gentleman, and pema now has an accent when he types :)

    arabella Ella: :)

    Maxine Walden: Also wondering how we all in the group right here are feeling, included or not, especially Paul, who feels new and may wonder how/whether he fits in ...it is such a vulnerable thing to feel new, at least for me when I first came to SL

    Isadora Davidov: I am new too

    Maxine Walden: ah, Isadora, yes, so sorry...did not mean to leave you out of my thoughts

    Isadora Davidov: :)

    Paul Namiboo: I don't want my typing to disturb you. Are you all talking about the upcoming meeting that Doug Sosa is going to this week?

    Maxine Walden: we are, Paul.

    Isadora Davidov: The typing doesn't bother me

    arabella Ella: typing does not bother me either

    Paul Namiboo: Sounds extremely interesting -- I especially like the idea of meeting in SL BECAUSE we're not distracted by appearance.

    Maxine Walden: agree Paul

    arabella Ella: do you know if any europeans are joining you for the retreat Maxine?

    Isadora Davidov: YEs, Ara mentioned several factors: social position, and of course gender has a strong RL effect

    Paul Namiboo: Doug and I are involved in a project that will attempt to get the whole world chatting about how we should live.

    arabella Ella: cool

    Isadora Davidov: Can you say more?

    Pila Mulligan: Tarmel is coming from Australia, Arabella

    Maxine Walden: not sure where each one is from, Ara, think Tarmel is from Australia

    arabella Ella: i was gonna say ... could you reveal more please?

    Paul Namiboo: I found the problem -- I made a letter my toggle, and every time I hit it, it turns the mike on!

    Yakuzza Lethecus: is fef living in israel or in the us ?

    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, but in princeton for a bit longs

    stevenaia Michinaga: longer

    Paul Namiboo: I'll say more if I can find how to reprogram the toggle!

    Pila Mulligan: I think Fefonz is on his way back to Israel now Yak

    stevenaia Michinaga: Wol, He Adams and I had dinner a few weeks ago

    Pila Mulligan: oh,Steve had it :)

    arabella Ella: Yes but Fef will be at the retreat won't he?

    Maxine Walden: yes, Ara

    arabella Ella: oh and Pema is European :)

    Pila Mulligan: Paul, do you want to speak in voice about the project with Doug?

    arabella Ella: so we will have one representative ... otherwise you would have lots more accents

    Pila Mulligan: I can change over to s amachine with speakers?

    arabella Ella: mine for example :)

    Pila Mulligan: oops, unfortunately, I need to leave now for RL matters, so excuse me

    Maxine Walden: I would like to suggest that if we want to go to voice to hear Paul, that we plan that a bit ahead so others will know what to expect. We could do that next Sunday at this time. But it might be a little jarring to ask the whole group to do that now .

    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye pila

    Maxine Walden: bye Pila

    Pila Mulligan: bye for now

    Paul Namiboo: Did it. Program is called Millennium Assessment of Human Behavior. Very soon we'll have a web site that can be visited. Idea is that most of our failure to do things like end racism and sexism, deal with climate disruption, etc. are not for lack of knowledge but have behavioral roots.

    Isadora Davidov: What is that screaming?

    Paul Namiboo: Am I still broadcasting?

    Isadora Davidov: I thnk I have to turn the screaming off..help please

    Maxine Walden: not sure, Isadora, may be from someone passing over/through.

    Isadora Davidov: Can anyone else hear this

    Maxine Walden: I heard it, Isadora

    Paul Namiboo: I can't

    arabella Ella: cant hear any noise, but also dont have problems with using voice either

    Isadora Davidov: Wow...that was really disturbing...an agonizing sound

    Yakuzza Lethecus: somebody wanted to bother us i guess

    Maxine Walden: now I do not hear the screaming

    Isadora Davidov: yes, it's stopped

    Yakuzza Lethecus: there were some boxes with disturbing images and a screaming

    Maxine Walden: there are many folks with many agendas who pass by...

    Isadora Davidov: We cn't stop that??




    Isadora Davidov: Is it possible to do worse things here?

    Maxine Walden: if it gets really serious we can ban them from this area...but we try to connect with them first

    stevenaia Michinaga: I don;t see or hear anything

    arabella Ella: yes i hear it is possible to do very bad things ... but i did not see or hear anything myself

    arabella Ella: so cant really judge

    Yakuzza Lethecus: yeah, it's gone, and i believe it should stay open to everyone as long as possible

    Yakuzza Lethecus: i got to leave as well

    Yakuzza Lethecus: good night or day

    arabella Ella: bye Yak

    Maxine Walden: thanks for coming Yaku

    Isadora Davidov: Good bye

    stevenaia Michinaga: bye Yakuzza

    arabella Ella: i must go too nite everyone!

    Isadora Davidov: THank you...goddbye

    arabella Ella: enjoy the retreat Maxine and Isa ... and all who are joining you!

    Paul Namiboo: Thanks to all of you for your patience. See you again, I hope

    Isadora Davidov: THanks

    Maxine Walden: thanks, ara, see you soon

    stevenaia Michinaga: nice meeting you Paul

    Isadora Davidov: Goodbye Paul

    Paul Namiboo: enjoy the retreat. Bye

    Maxine Walden: thanks Paul for coming. Please do come again; would really like to hear more about your thoughts and project

    stevenaia Michinaga: enjoy your week maxine

    Paul Namiboo: Will do, and will work on sound control

    Maxine Walden: will do, steve. Maybe we can share some of the fruits of it

    stevenaia Michinaga: I will be here at 7:00 PM

    Paul Namiboo: I'll try that too.

    stevenaia Michinaga: yes maxine, your second "retreat" shold bear interesting ones

    stevenaia Michinaga: or is it bare

    Maxine Walden: will be interesting, expect it will somehow be quite different from our first experience

    stevenaia Michinaga: yes

    Maxine Walden: had you thought of coming to this retreat, Steve?

    Isadora Davidov: THank you both...I should get back to RL and get something done...Maxine...see you soon...Goodbye Steve

    Maxine Walden: bye

    stevenaia Michinaga: no for a number of reasons, and my wife broke her ankle as well

    Maxine Walden: oh, so sorry....yes life has its priorities

    stevenaia Michinaga: balthough I ahve many friends on the west coast and love the SF and santa Cruz area

    Maxine Walden: see you soon, I hope. Would be nice to meet sometime again in RL

    Maxine Walden: well, better be going as well.

    Maxine Walden: Have a good week; hope to see you soon

    stevenaia Michinaga: I am sorry I misses the begining conversation about civil discourse

    stevenaia Michinaga: perhaps another worthy topic for the future

    stevenaia Michinaga: :)

    stevenaia Michinaga: I work with many uncivil people

    Maxine Walden: oh, I was sharing some of the lessons from last week, which I put on the chatlog where our discourse here became more barroom like in terms of polarized opinions about health care reform....lesson might be for the guardina to try to help keep the discourse 'civil' rather than polarized, because thinking stops when polarization begins

    Maxine Walden: and folks left the session because it was getting really heated....

    stevenaia Michinaga: that has happened before in the past, always a dificult situation in a group

    Maxine Walden: I try to frame the chatlog as a 'lesson' for guardians...at least I learned a lot from it...

    Maxine Walden: yes...maybe inevitible at times

    stevenaia Michinaga: issued don;t change , only people can

    Maxine Walden: well, off to get ready for the plane to the Bay area in the morning...

    Maxine Walden: bye for now.

    stevenaia Michinaga: enjoy

    Maxine Walden: thanks...

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