2009.08.30 07:00 - Isadora Reports on Retreat

The Guardian for this meeting was Adams Rubble. The comments are by Adams Rubble.

Isadora Davidov: Hello Yakuzza.
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey isa
Yakuzza Lethecus: hello adams
Isadora Davidov: How are you?
Isadora Davidov: Hi Adams
Adams Rubble: Hello Isadora and Yakuzza :)
Adams Rubble: nice to meet you isadora
Yakuzza Lethecus: thx, fine :) , just finished my 2nd lunch :)
Isadora Davidov: What time is it there?
Adams Rubble: Hello Eliza :)
Isadora Davidov: Hello Eliza
Adams Rubble looking forward to first and second lunch :)
Adams Rubble: maybe a third too (giggles)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Isadora, Adams, Yakuzza :)
Isadora Davidov: Oh here its' really early...7:00AM
--BELL--
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey eliza
Adams Rubble: Helllo Pema :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: ah, hi pema :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Pema :)
Isadora Davidov: Hi Pema:0
Isadora Davidov: :)
Pema Pera: Good morning, Eliza, Isadora, Adams, Yakuzza!
Eliza Madrigal: Morning :)
Adams Rubble: Hello Gaya :)
Pema Pera: Good to see you again in SL, Isadora, for a chance!
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Gaya :)
Pema Pera: Hi Gaya!
Adams Rubble: Hello Bertram :)
Isadora Davidov: Thanks...same here...I would like to swoop in like that!
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello :)
Pema Pera: Hi Bert!
Eliza Madrigal: Hello Bertram :)
Pema Pera: :)
Isadora Davidov: Hello Gaya, hello Bertram
Pema Pera: Adams, is it okay with you to let Isadora talk about her experiences during the retreat, during this session, as I suggested in my email yesterday?
Adams Rubble: Of course Pema

Isadora Begins her Report

Isadora Davidov: Well, I can say that I met (RL) some quite distinguished individuals...and friendly too..all with highly distinct personalities...not to mention Pema's style of Being in this embodiment (2009)
Isadora Davidov: THe place...Pema Osel LIng...,,Pema (a Tibetan pronunciation of skt. Padma = lotus). osel+Tib. light or sun's ray's, ling+ Tib "place"...and I think our little group in it;'s collective way expressed that vision...the lotus unfolding...and all rather sunny Beings (in the happy mood we were in to be all together, on "vacation" (except Pema and Genesis worked hard...and surely it was a lovely place
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Isadora Davidov: THe discussions were remarkably high level, in my experience...I think people felt free and unintimidated to express themselves honestly and openly
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Isadora Davidov: No one got "corrected" for being insufficiently "developed"
Isadora Davidov: WE gathered for meals..had a lot of fun getting to know one another personally and then we all sat together for sessions , did some meditation type experiments and then had intense discussions afterwards
--BELL--
Isadora Davidov: Everyone was forthcoming and made sincere attempts to express the nature of their experience...even things that were very hard to put into worsds
Isadora Davidov: So..I would highly reccommend it...one day...when you get the chance...meeting such people all together...if nothing else...is my idea of an ideal community

Secrets of the Universe

Isadora Davidov: ANd...I got to quiz Pema on the beginning of the cosmos...and he very well knows the secrets of the universe
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Thanks, Isadora :) You give such a clear picture, especially that no one was corrected for not being more developed... it seems like that is something easy to impose on oneself too, unless the environment counters it
Pema Pera: . . . :)
Bertram Jacobus: which secrets are they ?
Eliza Madrigal: hehe
Isadora Davidov: Oh you know...before time was time
Eliza Madrigal: oh, that
Bertram Jacobus: ah. sounds nice ...
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Isadora Davidov: the food was delicious and I ate a great deal...various men did dishes
Isadora Davidov: I saw that with my own eyes
Pema Pera: :)
Isadora Davidov: But seriously..one thing we experimented with was..umm...experiencing the presence of appearance as a presentation of Being...oh..Ihave not said that right!
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Isadora Davidov: So int that sense...the relative truth of phenomena
Pema Pera: almost: appreciating the presence of appearance as a presentation of Being
Pema Pera: (or "by Being")
Isadora Davidov: the interdependent arising due to causes and conditions...phenomena including thoughts, the sense objects...seemingly solid material objects..persons and our experiences, mental, physical, etc
Isadora Davidov: There were discussions of dreams and dream-liuke waking experiences..
Isadora Davidov: dream-like
Isadora Davidov: We discussed levels of consciousness and questioned the nature of reality...you know, chit-chat
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Isadora Davidov: We discussed the arising of emotions and feelings that came over us...how it blended in and colored our experiences that Pema and others suggested
Isadora Davidov: ANd the great mystery of how it is all combined within a person (so that you can hardly distinguish there things unless you are pretty careful)
Isadora Davidov: these things...these various elements comprising the "person"
Isadora Davidov: Going from a level of personal history, to "personality" , to ...usmm we.., you have to ask Pema...he's very good at verbalizing!
Gaya Ethaniel nods :)
Gaya Ethaniel: But I like your 'verbalising' too Isadora.
Eliza Madrigal: You seem to be too, Isadora :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)) Gaya
Pema Pera: I'd say so!
--BELL--
Isadora Davidov: Oh, thank you...

Bertram asks whether all this is possible without Pema and the discussion changes

Bertram Jacobus: in my mind there is a nearly heretical question : how much of all this would be possible without pema ?
Adams Rubble: I don;t beluieve that is a heretical question Bertram but it is irrelevant

I reacted a little strongly to the question because I think the message is more important than the messenger. I feel just as strongly about questions like "what would Buddha think?" or "what would Christ think?" or Lao Tze or Mohammad or Steven Tainer or Tarthang Tulku or anyone else. To me it how we apply the things we have been taught. But I did not consider "Pema Seeing" as I was about to find out. Pema disappears just as we begin the discussion and returns a bit later to tell whow he sees it.

Bertram Jacobus: i hope, this doesn´t hurt somebody, and i asked pema before IM because i was not brave enogh to ask it local, but he meant i could do it
Isadora Davidov: In my limited experience I would say (aside from the amazing creation of the group, PaB etc..) the open, non-hierarchical style and his non-egotistical presence is significant...the language, topics and styel of epxperimentation is a modern re-casting of ancient concerns...expressed by many highly gifted spiritual teachers, philosophers throughout time, East and West
Bertram Jacobus: so you see, at least for me, he´s a help
Adams Rubble: If you mean to ask whether we are grateful Bertram, then I am sure the answer is yes
Isadora Davidov: Oh I think he's a very big hellp...because he's extrememly open and non-judgemntal type of leader...I don't try to categorize his "level" of realization or any of that ...but he is an excellent catalyst and knows how to integrate groups,
Eliza Madrigal nods. Of course Pema is a help :) I understand also what Adams is saying... Thankfully we begin 'from here :)
Isadora Davidov: I think he's had enormous experience dealing diplomatically with some high-level thinkers..hwere you can run into some very big egos
Isadora Davidov: where
Gaya Ethaniel: wb Pema :)
Adams Rubble: wb Pema
Eliza Madrigal nods to Isadora..yes certainly a unique and very rare/precious skill set :)
Bertram Jacobus: no adams. that was not my question, sorry - and so my fears take place ... not to be understood with such a question and similar ...
Isadora Davidov: And that makes a gigantic differenced...especially when you're dealing with "spiritual seekers
Eliza Madrigal: WB Pema :)
Isadora Davidov: who often have gigantic egos
Pema Pera: (hotel internet connection not too reliable, it seems; good to be back :-)
Adams Rubble: I just feel it is a distracting question
Isadora Davidov: But group dynamics...kepping things open and positive is a signigicant skill for a leader or participant...so people don't get so "stepped on" emotionally so that they close up and withdraw
Adams Rubble: A better question might be what are we doing with what is being given to us
Gaya Ethaniel: We can worry about what to do if Pema runs away from us then anyway :P
Adams Rubble giggles
Eliza Madrigal: I wonder about the question you are asking though Bertram, whether it isn't really about our own responsibility levels and the extent to which we can easily project onto people... Is that what you mean?
Pema Pera quietly reading Gaya's notecard about what I missed
Pema Pera: funny, that SL dropped me when you started to talk about me :-)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Adams Rubble: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: :P

A Teachable Moment about the Group

Pema Pera: but I do think it's an interesting question that Bert asked -- certainly for me it is an ongoing concern
Pema Pera: I'm happy to help and share where I can, but I also am eager to let the group grow in its own way, far far more broadly in its collective wisdom that what any of us could provide
Adams Rubble: Funny that the discussion of the retreat should be reflect on the future of the group
Pema Pera: and I must say that is one of the main things I learned during the retreat, for myself, about ways to let things go without trying to steer or "help" more than minimally necessary
Bertram Jacobus: sorry eliza, that was the second fear i had : that i wouldn´t exactly understand all the following discussion and i try to react : it was simply meant as asked, constructive and a question, how much pema helps and how much would get lost without him for example
Isadora Davidov: THis is a grand cultural experiment...we are from different cultures in some ways...and we gather and talk across great distances. so this
Pema Pera: of course, Adams, a sign of a good retreat is that you want to come back for more :-)
Eliza Madrigal: and to bring what richness was developed back?

Global Goals

Isadora Davidov: so a leader who leads "lightly" is highly valuable...and we are learning to lead (perhaps) in this style...which can be inclusive for a broad range of peopel..spread across distances and cultures
Isadora Davidov: people...which is our global circumstance in this time of "liquid modernity"
Pema Pera: yes, Eliza, sharing it all . . .
--BELL--
Pema Pera: In a way, you could say that humanity as a whole is now at a point where an individual practitioner gets sooner or later in her/his practice: realizing that the old ways of thinking don't work any longer, and feeling disoriented, no longer knowing where to stand, without any clue as to where to find handholds . . .
Isadora Davidov: Integrating a diverse group is not so easy..even with those "familiar" with democracy
Pema Pera: we are facing a planetary koan
Pema Pera: how to sustain our life and that of the planet
Pema Pera: without any concrete guidance from the past
Isadora Davidov: We may have "hints", traditions...but never before this dire global challenge
Gaya Ethaniel: Sorry I am a bit lost ... was this a theme for a practice or a consensus that grew out of the meeting ... or ?
Eliza Madrigal: Interesting.. a question posed that can't be held with any of the tools we're so proud of and accustomed to.. can see that..hm
Pema Pera: it came up from time to time
Pema Pera: it was not central, but it did held people's interest
Pema Pera: so in PaB we are turning traditional practice upside down
Pema Pera: and globally we are dealing with the environment in ways we don't really understand
Isadora Davidov: Several people who met have been working actively in RL with these problems: environment, leadership
Pema Pera: interesting to see the two parallel ways of groping in the dark
Isadora Davidov: healing
Isadora Davidov: creative visions
Gaya Ethaniel: Turning traditional practices upside down = groping in the dark?
Pema Pera: so perhaps PaB could be a sandbox for learning to approach really important questions in a playful way, irreverent way even
Pema Pera: by turning upside down, we have to grope in the dark, I mean
Eliza Madrigal: which speaks directly to Bertram's question in a way... regarding 'teachers' and the extent to which we rely or project?
Gaya Ethaniel: ah
Pema Pera: because we don't have manuals to guide us
Isadora Davidov: certianly a model for integrating groups while reducing agression
Pema Pera: yes, related Eliza

Pema gives a vision

Pema Pera: I see a shift from individual to group-based
Pema Pera: from feudal to democratic
Eliza Madrigal nods
Pema Pera: from hierarchical to shared
Eliza Madrigal: and yet there is a fine line there...
Pema Pera: daring to swim in uncertainty as a group
Eliza Madrigal: good to appreciate those who inspire and point
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Pema Pera: without panicking and appointing a leader
Pema Pera: appreciating *everyone's* inspiring contributions
Eliza Madrigal nods
Pema Pera: while also appreciating that some of us just happen to have more experience and perhaps are somewhat better initially at conveying ideas
Pema Pera: but we all grow
Pema Pera: together
Isadora Davidov: a degree of leadership, or"wisdom" that others can recognize...but to the extent that an individual wants to integrate because they see that their very personal survival is at stake...it is so hard to reduce the intense level of self-grapsoing, self-protection, self-driven existence
Isadora Davidov: and yet not behave in a totaly pack-like fashion...to destroy the prey or enemy
Pema Pera: so I think Bertram's question set in motion an important train of thought here, thank you, Bert!
Gaya Ethaniel nods. Once can acknoledge/respect someone else without necessarily putting that person on pedestal.
Eliza Madrigal nods to Gaya
Pema Pera: "holding things open", "not believing and not disbelieving" is at the core of PaB -- and rather scary at first; so appointing a leader or council is typically the way to avoid that kind of collective responsibility
Isadora Davidov: But we can see historically the devastating power of the emergence of a strong leader
Gaya Ethaniel: Glad you had a successful retreat, thank you. Enjoy your day :)
Pema Pera: Stim made a very interesting point: that what we are doing in PaB is actually quite close to very early Buddhism, the first few generations after the Buddha lived.
Adams Rubble: bye Gaya :)
Bertram Jacobus: you too gaya
Pema Pera: Bye Gaya!
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Gaya :)
Eliza Madrigal: Some of us learning more traditional means along side/overlapped with PaB I think have strong questions in this area... finding balance or not seeking it
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye gaya
Pema Pera: no hierarchy then
Isadora Davidov: Goodbye Gaya
--BELL--
Pema Pera: can you say more, Eliza?
Isadora Davidov: But some collective acknowledge of a common purpose...of sorts?
Eliza Madrigal: Difficult actually, but there is a certainly a traditional model of teachers, and specific guidence seems vital

I bring up the SL Rtreat and try to explain how we too got into the subject of "letting go" on a deeper level.

Adams Rubble: I am very appreciative of the role you have played in bronging us together, challenging us, and guiding us with love and care Pema but alo the group functioned the past five days without a leader which is evidence that things are in motion. Eliza and I spent five and a half evenings in our own retreat here in SL which I found very moving
Isadora Davidov: Oh...remarkable..
Pema Pera: yes, I'd love to hear more about that Adams!
Pema Pera: that was such a nice gesture . . . .
Adams Rubble: Being away from the log we were able to talk about "letting go" in a very personal way
Isadora Davidov: Oh dear...I have to get ready to drive a long distance (alone!)...so regretfully...Goodbye..
Eliza Madrigal: yes it was a lovely gesture... it felt very comforting
Pema Pera: bye Isadora, thank you for your report!!
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Isadora, thank you so much!
Adams Rubble: bye Isadora :)
Bertram Jacobus: bye isadora and thanks a lot
Adams Rubble: thanks for the report
Isadora Davidov: Yes....and goodbye see you seeon!
Isadora Davidov: soon!
Pema Pera: did you have a mix of practice and discussions?
Adams Rubble: Paradise and SophiaSharon also joined us for part of the time
Eliza Madrigal: We held the idea... letting go...and each day it took on different aspects
Eliza Madrigal: funny to hold letting go
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Pema Pera: :-)
Adams Rubble: We started out more meditative and discussed more as we went along but we mixed that with the Zen Rtereat zazen
Adams Rubble: so we meditated there
Adams Rubble: I think it would be useful to make some kind of permanent setup for that
Pema Pera: letting go more and more of your ideas of letting go can be . . . a wonderful progression!
Eliza Madrigal: :) Shedding
Pema Pera: very interesting idea, Adams
Pema Pera: or of course we could designate some of the PaB sessions for that
Adams Rubble: you mean no logs?
Pema Pera: we have 28 every week, so why not use some of those?
Pema Pera: ah, okay, the log aspect is different of course
Pema Pera: how important did it feel, not to have logs?
Adams Rubble: it too would be nice to just have a place to go at a personally convenient time
Pema Pera: yes
Adams Rubble: I felt it was very importaht Pema
Adams Rubble: for me anyway
Eliza Madrigal: There was a subtle difference at some point... Permission, perhaps?
Pema Pera: you used the Zen Retreat outdoor place?
Adams Rubble: and I have been pretty open here
Pema Pera: yes, I can see that, Adams, good point
Adams Rubble: no I rezzed some cushions and tress in the PaB Retreat Center in Bieup
Pema Pera: ah, very nice to see that used!
Pema Pera: Is that the first time it is used?
Adams Rubble: It was used temporarilyy for an Art History workshop for a temprary exhibition/discussion
Pema Pera: I think it is a very good idea to keep it open permanently, as a more informal meeting place
Pema Pera: and we can individually announce through the email group when we go there
Pema Pera: or through the PaB SL group . . . if that would not get too noisy, with too many group's IMs . . . just an idea
Adams Rubble: my building skills aren't the best so it is rough cut indeed :)
Eliza Madrigal: :) It is lovely, Adams... very nice trees especially
Adams Rubble: spring, summer and fall all together (giggles)
Adams Rubble: but somehow that was nice :)
Eliza Madrigal: seems appropriate
Eliza Madrigal: haha
Pema Pera: I will have to leave in a few minutes, but perhaps we can briefly hop over there, to have a look?
Adams Rubble: sounds nice
Pema Pera: who would like to come with us?

We all tp'd to the site in Bieup where the disucssion continued. 

Pema Pera: nice place, Adams!
Pema Pera: no fire in the middle?
Adams Rubble: It was nice when we thhought of you all out there
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bertram Jacobus: lol. sry :o)
Pema Pera: glad to hear that, Adams!
Adams Rubble: the pillows were reminding me of sheep in a pasture :)
Pema Pera: :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)

I start making a point about the chaat logs and Pema thinks I am talking about the logs in the fire he rezzed in the moddle of the circle

Adams Rubble: I think one problem with the logs, which overall are a great thing, is sometimes we start to talk to the microphone
Adams Rubble: also we can't talk about the realy personal things
Bertram Jacobus: some people may feel comfortable with that, some less
Adams Rubble: yes Bert
Pema Pera: sorry, why can't we talk about the really personal things, Adams?
Adams Rubble: there are many things we would prefer not to have printed on the wiki
Pema Pera: ah, but here it is okay, right?
Eliza Madrigal: I'm a little conflicted about the logs, because being able to read them gives me continuity and yet, yes, there is value to having another layer like this :)
Pema Pera: ah, the logs as in wiki logs -- I thought the burning logs, hahahaha
Adams Rubble: Yes, Eliza, this as a supplement
Adams Rubble: hehe
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Pema Pera: I was wondering how they interfered with voice
Adams Rubble: :)
Pema Pera: since they didn't seem to make noise.....
Adams Rubble: we used text chat this week
Adams Rubble: just no wiki
Pema Pera: yes, I think it is an excellent idea to have off-time sessions, spontaneously, without logging
Adams Rubble: talking about "letting go" can get very personal
Adams Rubble: especially when deep things start to move
Pema Pera: when we get more and more guardians, it is possible that we'll have an (almost) constant present here
Pema Pera: forming a kind of . . . what? . . . monastery? . . . neighborhood cafe? . . . community park?
Adams Rubble: Let me add something else
Eliza Madrigal: for me would be a monastery...for others a cafe...hehe
Pema Pera: :)
Adams Rubble: we can talk personally many places but this week this spot allowed us to get away and focus on something specific
Pema Pera: Belgian trappist monasteries do brew very good beer, Eliza!
Eliza Madrigal: hahah
Pema Pera: yes, Adams, I can see that!
Pema Pera: (and I have to leave in two minutes)
Adams Rubble: Good to have you back Pema :)
Eliza Madrigal: :) Good to see you Pema, yes
Pema Pera: one other option is to add bits and pieces of the chats here to a session, if everyone agrees, occasionally
Bertram Jacobus: have a nice time pema and ty
Yakuzza Lethecus: good day pema
Pema Pera: for example, what we just said here could be appended to the session we just came from
Pema Pera: to share with our readers our further thoughts about using this place, don't you think?
Adams Rubble: yes, this one could :)
Eliza Madrigal: Sure...if agreed upon then...
Pema Pera: but by default most wont
Pema Pera: it's fine with me
Adams Rubble nods
Eliza Madrigal: a bit like Maxine's workshop, which isn't logged
Pema Pera: ah, yes
Adams Rubble: I am the GOC so I am OK with it :)
Eliza Madrigal: but shared at times
Yakuzza Lethecus: and it´s always possible to ask the guardian to delete the special sentences
Pema Pera: see you soon again!
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Pema
Yakuzza Lethecus: or just stop logging
Pema Pera: yes, or to delete it yourself, Yak
Eliza Madrigal: True, ya...or take them out oneself :)
Adams Rubble: yes, it still felt different here this week
Pema Pera: hehe, yes
Pema Pera: bye for now
Pema Pera: we all have access to the wiki
Adams Rubble: can't explain it all
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye
Adams Rubble: bye
Eliza Madrigal: Thanks, Adams :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: i just fear that seprate groups could be created
Eliza Madrigal: yes there is a little concern there Ya
AuraKyo Insoo is Online
Eliza Madrigal: but this being a pab site....
Eliza Madrigal: this also allows for it to be part of the whole
Eliza Madrigal: rather than splinterig
Eliza Madrigal: *splintering
Adams Rubble: I think that has happened along the way Yakuzza and they last for a while and then idsappear
Eliza Madrigal: yes, sometimes people have something they want to say...
Eliza Madrigal: and not on the record
Adams Rubble: we find people searching for things we are searching for
Adams Rubble: running parallel with us
Eliza Madrigal: and they leave or 'retreat' from pab without making that known....
Adams Rubble: then we go in doifferent directions and that disappears
Adams Rubble: I don't think that is a threat to the group
Adams Rubble: It may make it stronger
Eliza Madrigal: any place really... so the thing would maybe to have a place, outside of session times...
Eliza Madrigal: where the same spirit of openness
Eliza Madrigal: and good will pervades
Adams Rubble: This too is a supplement...takes place in off PaB hours
Adams Rubble: not a substitute
Eliza Madrigal: AND, ultimately it is our own choice to nurture it in the same way....
Adams Rubble: I had a thought this morning

I share a bit of what is happening to me as a result

Adams Rubble: In some way I feel I am at the end of a caterpiullar stage
Adams Rubble: and just beginning to go off and become a pupa
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Adams Rubble: spinning my little cocoon or whatever it is called
Adams Rubble: Eliza talks of level and this is on some level :)
Eliza Madrigal: I love that..... you haven't 'arrived' but you see the process unfolding
Adams Rubble: yes, a withdrawing process
Eliza Madrigal: :) And your friends support you in that....
Eliza Madrigal: won't try to peel at the cocoon
Adams Rubble: thanks Eliza :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: so yes, layers of unfolding
Adams Rubble: Knew you would like the layers Eliza. hehe
Eliza Madrigal: sounds like Heaven : )
Adams Rubble pokes Eliza
Eliza Madrigal giggles
Adams Rubble: :)
Eliza Madrigal: sheer layers....
Eliza Madrigal: important to be able to see through them
Bertram Jacobus: I'll leave - very tired ... ty all for all ...
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Bertram :)
Adams Rubble: byer Bert :)
Eliza Madrigal: Good to see you
Adams Rubble: bye, that is
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye bert
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye everyone
Bertram Jacobus: ty . friendly people ...
Yakuzza Lethecus: i also gonna leave
Adams Rubble: bye Yak :)
Eliza Madrigal: Bye yakuzza :) Glad you guys have the lm now
Bertram Jacobus: so tired ...