2009.09.04 13:00 - exploring openly and critically

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Lia Rikugun. The comments are by Lia Rikugun.

    Fael Illyar: Hi Ade :)
    Adelene Dawner: Hello!
    Fael Illyar ruffles Ade's fur.
    Adelene Dawner: :)
    Adelene Dawner: You're looking pink, today. :)
    Fael Illyar smiles 'Yes. Quite pink.'
    Fael Illyar: Hi Arch :)
    Fael Illyar: Hi Lia :)
    Lia Rikugun: hello good evening ;)
    Archmage Atlantis: Hiya Fael, Ade
    Archmage Atlantis: Hello Lia
    Lia Rikugun: so how is everybody?
    Fael Illyar: I'm good :)
    Fael Illyar: How are you Lia? :)
    Fael Illyar: Hi Pema :)
    Archmage Atlantis: I am quit well, also.....and also echo Fael's question to all.
    Adelene Dawner: Hi, Pema. :)
    Lia Rikugun: I am good thank you
    Fael Illyar: Hi Wol, Eliza :)
    Lia Rikugun: hello pema, wol eliza
    Archmage Atlantis: Hello Pema, Wol, Eliza.
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Adelene, Fael, Archmage, Lia, Pema, Wold :))
    Adelene Dawner: Hi Wol, Eliza - wow, it's getting crowded. Did I miss a message about a special sewssion or something?
    Wol Euler: hello eliza, pema, lia, arch, fael, ade
    Pema Pera: Hi Lia, Fael, Eliza, Adelene, Arch, Wol!
    Adelene Dawner: *session
    Lia Rikugun: if you want i can give you my impression of the retreat :)
    Wol Euler: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: *Wol...forgive the odd spelling :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes great Lia
    Wol Euler: please do :)
    Pema Pera: yes, Adelene :)
    Pema Pera: Lia will talk
    Lia Rikugun: actuially i didnt prepare anything :)
    Pema Pera: even better!
    Lia Rikugun: but ok weher do i start
    Lia Rikugun: i found it aslo very nice (as pema remarked as well) that PaB attracts so many nice and wonderful people
    Lia Rikugun: )
    Lia Rikugun: it was great to meet some in RL somehow for me it still is a different experience ;)
    Lia Rikugun: as many of you know by now maybe
    Pema Pera: Hi Sophia!
    Lia Rikugun: we did 2 sessions of "meditation" "exercise" "exploratoion!"
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi everyone :)
    Lia Rikugun: hello sophia
    Wol Euler: hello sophia
    Eliza Madrigal: :)Hi SophiaSharon :)
    Archmage Atlantis: Greetings, Sophia
    Fael Illyar: Hi SophiaSharon :)
    Lia Rikugun: the first day i think it was with the words "appreciate the presence of appearance" right pema?
    Lia Rikugun: well what does this really mean?
    Lia Rikugun: haha, i still dont know exactly
    Pema Pera: :)
    Lia Rikugun: but ok lets just try something
    Lia Rikugun: and we will see what will come out
    Lia Rikugun: so what I did in the first meditation was somehow what pema suggested in the pheno workshop once
    Fael Illyar: well, I believe I'm likely correct to say that it ought to be interpreted more widely than anyone of us interprets it :)
    Pema Pera: :)
    Lia Rikugun: this was seing images you see as 2d image
    Lia Rikugun: and sounds you hear as something happening here and not seperate from you
    Lia Rikugun: well this confused me for 2 days !
    Lia Rikugun: :D
    Lia Rikugun: which was also an interesting experience
    Lia Rikugun: you somehow dont really know anymore what is true and what not
    Lia Rikugun: what can I really believe in?
    Lia Rikugun: well i dont know
    Lia Rikugun: i have my specific ideas about the world and this is all working
    Lia Rikugun: but actually there is most probably more
    Lia Rikugun: well i dont know if there is more
    Lia Rikugun: i think there is more
    Lia Rikugun: it could also be only imagination ;)
    Lia Rikugun: hehe
    Wol Euler: :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles
    Lia Rikugun: but well
    Lia Rikugun: lets go 2 paths
    Archmage Atlantis: The comment "what can I really believe in" is in the core of all religion and philosophical thought
    Lia Rikugun: one critical one and one explorative one
    Pema Pera: (footnote: I don't think I suggested to focus on 2D, but I have mentioned the analogy of a movie quite a number of times -- and though a movie does appear on a 2D screen, we experience it as 3D -- but somehow Fefonz and Lia have picked up the 2D aspect and ran with it, which of course is okay too; I guess it hadn't occurred to me, that aspect, when I mentioned the movie notion)
    Lia Rikugun: oh ok sorry pema
    Pema Pera: no problem!
    Pema Pera: it's interesting, new twists
    Pema Pera: but I can't get the credit :-)
    Lia Rikugun: ok so i see the critical perspective as something which can bring me back to the ground
    Lia Rikugun: when i get too confused
    Lia Rikugun: and I need something to hold on to
    Lia Rikugun: and on the other hand
    Lia Rikugun: if i just try out somethings any kind of exploration as long as i feel ok with it
    Lia Rikugun: i can find out several things
    Lia Rikugun: this is what i found out for me
    Lia Rikugun: is this going into the right direction?
    Lia Rikugun: or would you like me to tell you something different?
    Pema Pera: sure!
    Wol Euler: it's all good :)
    Pema Pera: right direction, at least one right direction!
    Lia Rikugun: :) wonderfukl
    Lia Rikugun: *ful
    Lia Rikugun: well then I tried to concentrate on one kind of exploration i talk about with pema
    Archmage Atlantis: For me, it is well said and inciteful
    Lia Rikugun: I call it "going to the happy place" hehe
    Lia Rikugun: (this is some imaginary place i came up with when i really felt stressed out once)
    Lia Rikugun: (to relax)
    Lia Rikugun: hm
    Lia Rikugun: so i will tell you how it looks like
    Lia Rikugun: but i wont twell you where it is :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    Lia Rikugun: itw ill get to crowded
    Lia Rikugun: ;)
    Lia Rikugun: so it is a very green lawn
    Adelene Dawner whispers "my apologies, work calls" and quietly leaves.
    Lia Rikugun: the green lawn and a little river
    Lia Rikugun: *bach*
    Pema Pera: Hi Doug!
    Wol Euler: hello doug
    Lia Rikugun: Hi Doug!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Doug
    doug Sosa: hi all :)
    Pema Pera: (creek)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi doug :)
    Pema Pera: (stream)
    doug Sosa: traffic :(
    Archmage Atlantis: *nods* Hi Dough
    Lia Rikugun: this was a static place and i didnt move around at all
    Archmage Atlantis: *Doug
    Fael Illyar: Hi doug :)
    Lia Rikugun: sometimes lying on the grass or just standing at the creek
    Lia Rikugun: with pema I started exploring this place
    Lia Rikugun: I found a little forest
    Lia Rikugun: and a little house
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Lia Rikugun: in the house there lives an old man
    Lia Rikugun: to whom I talk from time to time
    Lia Rikugun: ;)
    Lia Rikugun: ok critical me: well these are just memories from the past
    Lia Rikugun: pictures you put together
    Lia Rikugun: - well I dont know maybe it is maybe it isnt
    Lia Rikugun: but its fun!
    Lia Rikugun: so i continue going there from time to time, meeting new people
    Lia Rikugun: seeing different things
    SophiaSharon Larnia sighs happily
    Wol Euler smiles.
    Lia Rikugun: asnd maybe it helps me see things clearer
    Lia Rikugun: ok sometimes there are also scary things happening
    Lia Rikugun: but i can decide to open my eyes
    Lia Rikugun: or i decide that this is not scary to me
    Lia Rikugun: i decide that even though the situation seems unusual maybe i should just be open and see hwat is happening
    Lia Rikugun: and this directly relates to RL too, no?
    Lia Rikugun: you project your own expectations to a situation
    Wol Euler: oh yes :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: this visualization reminds me of looking at the world, to accept it as it is, to let some things go maybe
    Lia Rikugun: oh and doug gave us a wonderful introduction to Tai Chi every morning
    Pema Pera: yes, to appreciate both the attractive and unattractive
    Lia Rikugun: thank you!
    Archmage Atlantis: Lia, if that was asked as a general question, I would say it applies to all life and whatever is beyond.
    Lia Rikugun: yes
    Lia Rikugun: :)
    Lia Rikugun: so sory to disappoint you, i dont think i am enlightened now :)
    Lia Rikugun: hehe
    doug Sosa: imagine if you were but didn't know it :)
    Pema Pera: :)
    Lia Rikugun: exactly
    Lia Rikugun: thats what we try to do :)
    Archmage Atlantis: Perhaps others can see if you cannot, being inside the box isn't the best camera angle
    doug Sosa: the danger is to arrive at knowing it and having lost it on the way.
    Lia Rikugun: oh yes
    Lia Rikugun: so what is my conclusion?
    Lia Rikugun: ...
    Archmage Atlantis: Wol, you drew a diagram in our Pa
    Lia Rikugun: :)
    Wol Euler: eh?
    Archmage Atlantis: *sorry, that sentence was still being constructed
    Archmage Atlantis: Please finish Lia
    Lia Rikugun: oh , I finished
    Lia Rikugun: ;)
    Lia Rikugun: just teasing
    Lia Rikugun: i dont know what my conclusion is
    Archmage Atlantis: Wol, do you remember the diagram that ended with -> suffering
    Lia Rikugun: maybe i am crazy, maybe you all are crazy, maybe we know more than anybody else, maybe you all dont exist maybe maybe maybe :D
    SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles
    Archmage Atlantis: To forget and relearn is to suffer
    Archmage Atlantis: It is my understanding that to suffer is to learn and is a path to enlightenment
    Wol Euler: well, I think that I exist, but I might be wrong. Perhaps I am just a part of your hallucination, that imagines itself to be self-aware
    SophiaSharon Larnia: a conclusion implies and end to something...
    SophiaSharon Larnia: an*
    Archmage Atlantis: Not that enlightment is a steady state
    Lia Rikugun: HAHA
    Lia Rikugun: *I* wouldnt know wol ;)
    Eliza Madrigal giggles at Wol
    Wol Euler: :)
    Pema Pera: Thank you so much, Lia! The way you described explorations in PaB is very similar to the way I see research in science: at the same time progressive and conservative, open and critical
    Lia Rikugun: it was evry good to have all the people arouind
    Lia Rikugun: yes to keep an objective image still
    Lia Rikugun: and dont get lost in enthusiasm
    Lia Rikugun: in the group we could build up our explorations
    Lia Rikugun: this had a dynamic on its own
    Lia Rikugun: which was great
    Lia Rikugun: (wrong order of lines..)
    Eliza Madrigal: still seems to work :)
    Lia Rikugun: on your own you keep practicing ina specific way maybe
    Lia Rikugun: but with the group you get new ideas
    Wol Euler nods
    Lia Rikugun: and try out something different which was nice
    SophiaSharon Larnia: good point
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Lia Rikugun: we evaluated new possible explorations
    Lia Rikugun: and well of course getting all the impressions from everybody else
    Lia Rikugun: you can get a different perspective
    Lia Rikugun: which opens your mind
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Ari
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Ari :)
    Lia Rikugun: hi ari
    Arisia Vita: Hi all
    Wol Euler: hello ari
    Pema Pera: Hi Ari!
    Archmage Atlantis: Heho, Ari!
    Fael Illyar: Hi Ari :)
    Lia Rikugun: somehow you constantly rething of what you think you know in such a group
    Lia Rikugun: and it is wonderful to see that actually there is so much more to know
    Wol Euler grins and nods
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Lia Rikugun: ok i mustr admit
    Lia Rikugun: teh first day of the retreat
    Lia Rikugun: i thought of myself - wow I experienced so much already (haha which is completely dumb)
    Lia Rikugun: and it was great to get all the different perspectives
    Lia Rikugun: each different person sees different things in every little thing in the world or in the explorations
    Lia Rikugun: so just listening makes you learn so much
    Lia Rikugun: always trying to understand what that person feels or sees
    Lia Rikugun: well now i dont know what to talk about anymore :)
    Lia Rikugun: i talked too much!
    Eliza Madrigal: haha..not at all. Thank you
    Wol Euler applauds
    Archmage Atlantis: Thank you very much LIa
    Lia Rikugun: hehe (embarrased)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i loved hearing it
    Eliza Madrigal: You *all* came back very energized
    Eliza Madrigal: so interesting :)
    Wol Euler nods
    Lia Rikugun: so next retreat in malta :)
    Lia Rikugun: but actually we have retreat every day right!
    Eliza Madrigal grins
    Lia Rikugun: here in SL ;)
    Fael Illyar smiles.
    Wol Euler: mmhmm :)
    Archmage Atlantis: Wondered when Malta would come up again
    Archmage Atlantis: I really need to google it
    Lia Rikugun: my plan is to continue going to the happy place
    Lia Rikugun: and cotinue to have this open mind
    Fael Illyar smiles.
    Lia Rikugun: which is not always easy so i have to remind myself!
    Lia Rikugun: that is why it is good we have our meetings here ;)
    Eliza Madrigal nods....certainly true
    Lia Rikugun: so "radical openess" as summary ;)
    Lia Rikugun: ok now i talked too much definitely
    Wol Euler: heheheh
    Lia Rikugun: would yu like to add something?
    Eliza Madrigal will take the phrase "radical openness" with me now... must go :) Thanks so much Lia, everyone
    Lia Rikugun: this is what pema said
    Fael Illyar: See you later Eliza :)
    Wol Euler: goodnight eiliza, take care
    Pema Pera: bye Eliza!
    Lia Rikugun: "radical openness"
    Wol Euler: *eliza
    Lia Rikugun: byebye
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye for now, hugs
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Bye Eliza
    Pema Pera: openness can come in many degrees
    Pema Pera: from an idea, to a stance, to an effort . . .
    Pema Pera: the more radical ways are always surprising when you fall into them, even very briefly
    Fael Illyar: Hi Yak :)
    Wol Euler: hello yakuzza
    Pema Pera: take for example Wol's question, about being open to what existence means
    Pema Pera: Hi Yak!
    Lia Rikugun: hi yakuzza
    Pema Pera: about what really exists: Wol, perhaps existence is relative -- relative to a frame, an assumption, a kind of story we weave, but it may not be sensible to talk about something "existing" in any absolute way -- does that make sense?
    doug Sosa: hi must go, garden calls..
    Pema Pera: bye Doug!
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye doug
    Lia Rikugun: bye doug
    Wol Euler: get dirty, doug :)
    Lia Rikugun: was good to see you
    Wol Euler nods to Pema
    doug Sosa: just as the words caught my attenntion!
    Fael Illyar: See you later doug :)
    doug Sosa: Anything like absolute existence is a contruct. Bye.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Lia, you said: lets go 2 paths, one critical one and one explorative one
    SophiaSharon Larnia: is this what you mean by radical openness?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: (or Pema) :))
    Lia Rikugun: pema used the words radical openness, and I understand the explorative me as the very open one
    Lia Rikugun: the critical one takes me back to the ground to rethink what I saw or felt
    Lia Rikugun: to see if this makes sense
    Pema Pera: it's part of it, Sophia, a way to go deeper and deeper, way deeper than you initially held possible
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes, i know what you mean by needing to go back to ground
    SophiaSharon Larnia: ok
    Lia Rikugun: i dont mean that the critical me will throw everything away which doesnt sound logical
    Lia Rikugun: it will just say- maybe it is your imagination maybe it is more
    Pema Pera: keeping that judgment open too
    Wol Euler wonders about "imagination" as a negative term, a lesser quality. When Mozart imagined "Don Giovanni", was that an inferior moment?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes, ive been thinking about the imagination piece the last few weeks :)
    Archmage Atlantis: As one who wished to be a theoritical mathematician in a prior life, all logic does is extend the assumptions one makes when one begins the prove
    Archmage Atlantis: *proof
    Archmage Atlantis: Logic does not invalidate the assumptions
    Lia Rikugun: well maybe imagination is part of the unconscious
    Lia Rikugun: and what is the unconscious?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: intuitive??
    Lia Rikugun: or intuitive what is intuitive?
    Pema Pera quietly leaving the party . . . RL calling -- thanks again, Lia!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Pema :))
    Wol Euler: bye pema, take care.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye pema
    Lia Rikugun: was great seeing you
    Fael Illyar: See you later Pema :)
    Lia Rikugun: byebye
    Archmage Atlantis: Bye Pema
    Pema Pera: bye everybody!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: intuitive as snsing a truth in it Lia
    SophiaSharon Larnia: sensing*
    Lia Rikugun: yes this is how i do the explorations, if i feel it is somehow true then it "makes sense" (even though it doesnt maek sense)
    Lia Rikugun: but i dont throw the idea away just because it sounds absurde
    SophiaSharon Larnia: for me, critically examining what is, and what is I wish it to be
    Wol Euler nods
    Fael Illyar: Lia do you mean it "feels sensible" instead of "logic makes sense"?
    Lia Rikugun: as archmage said, maybe our assumptions are just wrong
    Lia Rikugun: and if it sounds absurde with these assumptions it doesnt mean that in "reality" it is wrong
    Archmage Atlantis: Lia, I did not say they were necesarily wrong
    Lia Rikugun: (i am not sure if i am making sense)
    Lia Rikugun: well i didnt say it either
    Lia Rikugun: :)
    Lia Rikugun: maybe not complete then
    Archmage Atlantis: Or too complete
    Lia Rikugun: or too complete ;)
    Lia Rikugun: exactly
    Lia Rikugun: i think this is a wonderful example
    Lia Rikugun: in maths when we want to proof something we build our system onto some assumptions
    Lia Rikugun: and can prrof in this system spomething
    Wol Euler remembers Karl Gödel and smiles.
    Lia Rikugun: some assumptions could be wrong
    Lia Rikugun: have to google that wol :-s
    SophiaSharon Larnia: grins
    Wol Euler: oh, I'm very surprised :)
    Wol Euler: incompleteness theorem?
    Lia Rikugun: hm
    Wol Euler: Karl said that there are statements which can be made within a system, which cannot be proven or disproven within that system.
    Wol Euler: thus proving that an absolute, definite, always-valid mathematical/logical proof of the universe was imposssible
    Lia Rikugun: (kurt) :)
    Archmage Atlantis: I think the most startling RL example is Einstien vs. Euclid
    Wol Euler: "Anything that can be proven, is true; but there are things that are true that cannot be proven."
    Wol Euler: ah, right, thank you :) Too many years ago.
    Lia Rikugun: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6...eness_theorems
    Lia Rikugun: ups
    Lia Rikugun: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goedel%27s_incompleteness_theorems
    Lia Rikugun: yes i like this idea
    Lia Rikugun: and it makes sense
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Thank you Lia, I need to log off, Take care everyone :))
    Wol Euler nods and smiles.
    Wol Euler: bye sharon, take care.
    Lia Rikugun: byebye sophia
    Lia Rikugun: take care
    Fael Illyar: See you later SophiaSharon :)
    Archmage Atlantis: Bye
    SophiaSharon Larnia: waves
    Lia Rikugun: i think i will need to go to bed soon too
    Lia Rikugun: i hope this was all interesting for you and I didnt pressure my words on you :)
    Archmage Atlantis: Time for some "happy place" time
    Lia Rikugun: :)
    Archmage Atlantis: *smile*
    Lia Rikugun: you all take care
    Lia Rikugun: and good night
    Wol Euler: goodngiht lia, and thank you very much.
    Archmage Atlantis: Thank you for your generocity LIa
    Fael Illyar: Good night Lia :)
    Archmage Atlantis: Guess I need to stop ignoring my cat
    Archmage Atlantis: Good discussion all
    Wol Euler: :)
    Wol Euler: goodngiht arch, take care.
    Fael Illyar: See you later Arch :)
    Arisia Vita: night Arch
    Fael Illyar: Have fun with your cat :)
    Wol Euler smiles
    Arisia Vita: I need a bell to remind me to observe 90 seconds of chat... :)
    Wol Euler: hjeheheheh
    Wol Euler raises an eyebrow and waits patiently.
    Arisia Vita: cna
    Arisia Vita: can't think of a thing to say
    Arisia Vita: except time for me to go, give others a chance...
    Wol Euler: ach.
    Wol Euler: bye ari, enjoy the day.
    Fael Illyar: see you soon Ari :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hmm :)
    Fael Illyar: meep meep! :)
    Wol Euler: mmm?
    Wol Euler: Meep Meep ;P :p:P :p :P
    Yakuzza Lethecus: lol
    Yakuzza Lethecus: onigokko
    Fael Illyar: oh :P
    Wol Euler laughs
    Yakuzza Lethecus: stop
    Fael Illyar: I'm not wearing it :P
    Yakuzza Lethecus: :), ok good night everyone :)
    Fael Illyar: good night yakuzza :)
    Wol Euler: 'night yakuzza, sleep well
    Fael Illyar: I've discovered something about artistic work :)
    Wol Euler: mmm?
    Fael Illyar: going with the first thing that feels right tends to make the best result :)
    Wol Euler: heheheh
    Fael Illyar: I've made two posters that were quickies. First one an hour, second one a bit more.
    Fael Illyar: I love both a lot :)
    Fael Illyar: also this hairflower was a quickie
    Wol Euler nods
    Fael Illyar: except for the script... that's difficult as a quickie
    Wol Euler: exept for simple tasks, yes
    Wol Euler: that lion cub really is very cute :)
    Fael Illyar: Yes, very :)
    Fael Illyar: Well, I'll need to go. See you later Wol :)
    Wol Euler: goodnight fael, take care
    Fael Illyar: good night Wol :)
    Fael Illyar waves.
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