2009.09.04 13:00 - exploring openly and critically

The Guardian for this meeting was Lia Rikugun. The comments are by Lia Rikugun.

Fael Illyar: Hi Ade :)
Adelene Dawner: Hello!
Fael Illyar ruffles Ade's fur.
Adelene Dawner: :)
Adelene Dawner: You're looking pink, today. :)
Fael Illyar smiles 'Yes. Quite pink.'
Fael Illyar: Hi Arch :)
Fael Illyar: Hi Lia :)
Lia Rikugun: hello good evening ;)
Archmage Atlantis: Hiya Fael, Ade
Archmage Atlantis: Hello Lia
--BELL--
Lia Rikugun: so how is everybody?
Fael Illyar: I'm good :)
Fael Illyar: How are you Lia? :)
Fael Illyar: Hi Pema :)
Archmage Atlantis: I am quit well, also.....and also echo Fael's question to all.
Adelene Dawner: Hi, Pema. :)
Lia Rikugun: I am good thank you
Fael Illyar: Hi Wol, Eliza :)
Lia Rikugun: hello pema, wol eliza
Archmage Atlantis: Hello Pema, Wol, Eliza.
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Adelene, Fael, Archmage, Lia, Pema, Wold :))
Adelene Dawner: Hi Wol, Eliza - wow, it's getting crowded. Did I miss a message about a special sewssion or something?
Wol Euler: hello eliza, pema, lia, arch, fael, ade
Pema Pera: Hi Lia, Fael, Eliza, Adelene, Arch, Wol!
Adelene Dawner: *session
Lia Rikugun: if you want i can give you my impression of the retreat :)
Wol Euler: :)
Eliza Madrigal: *Wol...forgive the odd spelling :)
Eliza Madrigal: Yes great Lia
Wol Euler: please do :)
Pema Pera: yes, Adelene :)
Pema Pera: Lia will talk
Lia Rikugun: actuially i didnt prepare anything :)
Pema Pera: even better!
Lia Rikugun: but ok weher do i start
Lia Rikugun: i found it aslo very nice (as pema remarked as well) that PaB attracts so many nice and wonderful people
Lia Rikugun: )
Lia Rikugun: it was great to meet some in RL somehow for me it still is a different experience ;)
Lia Rikugun: as many of you know by now maybe
Pema Pera: Hi Sophia!
Lia Rikugun: we did 2 sessions of "meditation" "exercise" "exploratoion!"
SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi everyone :)
Lia Rikugun: hello sophia
Wol Euler: hello sophia
Eliza Madrigal: :)Hi SophiaSharon :)
Archmage Atlantis: Greetings, Sophia
Fael Illyar: Hi SophiaSharon :)
Lia Rikugun: the first day i think it was with the words "appreciate the presence of appearance" right pema?
Lia Rikugun: well what does this really mean?
Lia Rikugun: haha, i still dont know exactly
Pema Pera: :)
Lia Rikugun: but ok lets just try something
Lia Rikugun: and we will see what will come out
Lia Rikugun: so what I did in the first meditation was somehow what pema suggested in the pheno workshop once
Fael Illyar: well, I believe I'm likely correct to say that it ought to be interpreted more widely than anyone of us interprets it :)
Pema Pera: :)
Lia Rikugun: this was seing images you see as 2d image
Lia Rikugun: and sounds you hear as something happening here and not seperate from you
Lia Rikugun: well this confused me for 2 days !
Lia Rikugun: :D
Lia Rikugun: which was also an interesting experience
Lia Rikugun: you somehow dont really know anymore what is true and what not
Lia Rikugun: what can I really believe in?
Lia Rikugun: well i dont know
Lia Rikugun: i have my specific ideas about the world and this is all working
Lia Rikugun: but actually there is most probably more
Lia Rikugun: well i dont know if there is more
Lia Rikugun: i think there is more
Lia Rikugun: it could also be only imagination ;)
Lia Rikugun: hehe
Wol Euler: :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles
Lia Rikugun: but well
Lia Rikugun: lets go 2 paths
Archmage Atlantis: The comment "what can I really believe in" is in the core of all religion and philosophical thought
Lia Rikugun: one critical one and one explorative one
Pema Pera: (footnote: I don't think I suggested to focus on 2D, but I have mentioned the analogy of a movie quite a number of times -- and though a movie does appear on a 2D screen, we experience it as 3D -- but somehow Fefonz and Lia have picked up the 2D aspect and ran with it, which of course is okay too; I guess it hadn't occurred to me, that aspect, when I mentioned the movie notion)
Lia Rikugun: oh ok sorry pema
Pema Pera: no problem!
Pema Pera: it's interesting, new twists
Pema Pera: but I can't get the credit :-)
Lia Rikugun: ok so i see the critical perspective as something which can bring me back to the ground
Lia Rikugun: when i get too confused
Lia Rikugun: and I need something to hold on to
Lia Rikugun: and on the other hand
Lia Rikugun: if i just try out somethings any kind of exploration as long as i feel ok with it
Lia Rikugun: i can find out several things
Lia Rikugun: this is what i found out for me
Lia Rikugun: is this going into the right direction?
Lia Rikugun: or would you like me to tell you something different?
Pema Pera: sure!
Wol Euler: it's all good :)
Pema Pera: right direction, at least one right direction!
Lia Rikugun: :) wonderfukl
Lia Rikugun: *ful
Lia Rikugun: well then I tried to concentrate on one kind of exploration i talk about with pema
Archmage Atlantis: For me, it is well said and inciteful
Lia Rikugun: I call it "going to the happy place" hehe
Lia Rikugun: (this is some imaginary place i came up with when i really felt stressed out once)
Lia Rikugun: (to relax)
Lia Rikugun: hm
Lia Rikugun: so i will tell you how it looks like
Lia Rikugun: but i wont twell you where it is :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
Lia Rikugun: itw ill get to crowded
Lia Rikugun: ;)
--BELL--
Lia Rikugun: so it is a very green lawn
Adelene Dawner whispers "my apologies, work calls" and quietly leaves.
Lia Rikugun: the green lawn and a little river
Lia Rikugun: *bach*
Pema Pera: Hi Doug!
Wol Euler: hello doug
Lia Rikugun: Hi Doug!
SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Doug
doug Sosa: hi all :)
Pema Pera: (creek)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi doug :)
Pema Pera: (stream)
doug Sosa: traffic :(
Archmage Atlantis: *nods* Hi Dough
Lia Rikugun: this was a static place and i didnt move around at all
Archmage Atlantis: *Doug
Fael Illyar: Hi doug :)
Lia Rikugun: sometimes lying on the grass or just standing at the creek
Lia Rikugun: with pema I started exploring this place
Lia Rikugun: I found a little forest
Lia Rikugun: and a little house
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Lia Rikugun: in the house there lives an old man
Lia Rikugun: to whom I talk from time to time
Lia Rikugun: ;)
Lia Rikugun: ok critical me: well these are just memories from the past
Lia Rikugun: pictures you put together
Lia Rikugun: - well I dont know maybe it is maybe it isnt
Lia Rikugun: but its fun!
Lia Rikugun: so i continue going there from time to time, meeting new people
Lia Rikugun: seeing different things
SophiaSharon Larnia sighs happily
Wol Euler smiles.
Lia Rikugun: asnd maybe it helps me see things clearer
Lia Rikugun: ok sometimes there are also scary things happening
Lia Rikugun: but i can decide to open my eyes
Lia Rikugun: or i decide that this is not scary to me
Lia Rikugun: i decide that even though the situation seems unusual maybe i should just be open and see hwat is happening
Lia Rikugun: and this directly relates to RL too, no?
Lia Rikugun: you project your own expectations to a situation
Wol Euler: oh yes :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: this visualization reminds me of looking at the world, to accept it as it is, to let some things go maybe
Lia Rikugun: oh and doug gave us a wonderful introduction to Tai Chi every morning
Pema Pera: yes, to appreciate both the attractive and unattractive
Lia Rikugun: thank you!
Archmage Atlantis: Lia, if that was asked as a general question, I would say it applies to all life and whatever is beyond.
Lia Rikugun: yes
Lia Rikugun: :)
Lia Rikugun: so sory to disappoint you, i dont think i am enlightened now :)
Lia Rikugun: hehe
doug Sosa: imagine if you were but didn't know it :)
Pema Pera: :)
Lia Rikugun: exactly
Lia Rikugun: thats what we try to do :)
Archmage Atlantis: Perhaps others can see if you cannot, being inside the box isn't the best camera angle
doug Sosa: the danger is to arrive at knowing it and having lost it on the way.
Lia Rikugun: oh yes
Lia Rikugun: so what is my conclusion?
Lia Rikugun: ...
Archmage Atlantis: Wol, you drew a diagram in our Pa
Lia Rikugun: :)
Wol Euler: eh?
Archmage Atlantis: *sorry, that sentence was still being constructed
Archmage Atlantis: Please finish Lia
Lia Rikugun: oh , I finished
Lia Rikugun: ;)
Lia Rikugun: just teasing
Lia Rikugun: i dont know what my conclusion is
Archmage Atlantis: Wol, do you remember the diagram that ended with -> suffering
Lia Rikugun: maybe i am crazy, maybe you all are crazy, maybe we know more than anybody else, maybe you all dont exist maybe maybe maybe :D
SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles
Archmage Atlantis: To forget and relearn is to suffer
Archmage Atlantis: It is my understanding that to suffer is to learn and is a path to enlightenment
Wol Euler: well, I think that I exist, but I might be wrong. Perhaps I am just a part of your hallucination, that imagines itself to be self-aware
SophiaSharon Larnia: a conclusion implies and end to something...
SophiaSharon Larnia: an*
Archmage Atlantis: Not that enlightment is a steady state
Lia Rikugun: HAHA
Lia Rikugun: *I* wouldnt know wol ;)
Eliza Madrigal giggles at Wol
Wol Euler: :)
--BELL--
Pema Pera: Thank you so much, Lia! The way you described explorations in PaB is very similar to the way I see research in science: at the same time progressive and conservative, open and critical
Lia Rikugun: it was evry good to have all the people arouind
Lia Rikugun: yes to keep an objective image still
Lia Rikugun: and dont get lost in enthusiasm
Lia Rikugun: in the group we could build up our explorations
Lia Rikugun: this had a dynamic on its own
Lia Rikugun: which was great
Lia Rikugun: (wrong order of lines..)
Eliza Madrigal: still seems to work :)
Lia Rikugun: on your own you keep practicing ina specific way maybe
Lia Rikugun: but with the group you get new ideas
Wol Euler nods
Lia Rikugun: and try out something different which was nice
SophiaSharon Larnia: good point
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Lia Rikugun: we evaluated new possible explorations
Lia Rikugun: and well of course getting all the impressions from everybody else
Lia Rikugun: you can get a different perspective
Lia Rikugun: which opens your mind
SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Ari
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Ari :)
Lia Rikugun: hi ari
Arisia Vita: Hi all
Wol Euler: hello ari
Pema Pera: Hi Ari!
Archmage Atlantis: Heho, Ari!
Fael Illyar: Hi Ari :)
Lia Rikugun: somehow you constantly rething of what you think you know in such a group
Lia Rikugun: and it is wonderful to see that actually there is so much more to know
Wol Euler grins and nods
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Lia Rikugun: ok i mustr admit
Lia Rikugun: teh first day of the retreat
Lia Rikugun: i thought of myself - wow I experienced so much already (haha which is completely dumb)
Lia Rikugun: and it was great to get all the different perspectives
Lia Rikugun: each different person sees different things in every little thing in the world or in the explorations
Lia Rikugun: so just listening makes you learn so much
Lia Rikugun: always trying to understand what that person feels or sees
Lia Rikugun: well now i dont know what to talk about anymore :)
Lia Rikugun: i talked too much!
Eliza Madrigal: haha..not at all. Thank you
Wol Euler applauds
Archmage Atlantis: Thank you very much LIa
Lia Rikugun: hehe (embarrased)
SophiaSharon Larnia: i loved hearing it
Eliza Madrigal: You *all* came back very energized
Eliza Madrigal: so interesting :)
Wol Euler nods
Lia Rikugun: so next retreat in malta :)
Lia Rikugun: but actually we have retreat every day right!
Eliza Madrigal grins
Lia Rikugun: here in SL ;)
Fael Illyar smiles.
Wol Euler: mmhmm :)
Archmage Atlantis: Wondered when Malta would come up again
Archmage Atlantis: I really need to google it
--BELL--
Lia Rikugun: my plan is to continue going to the happy place
Lia Rikugun: and cotinue to have this open mind
Fael Illyar smiles.
Lia Rikugun: which is not always easy so i have to remind myself!
Lia Rikugun: that is why it is good we have our meetings here ;)
Eliza Madrigal nods....certainly true
Lia Rikugun: so "radical openess" as summary ;)
Lia Rikugun: ok now i talked too much definitely
Wol Euler: heheheh
Lia Rikugun: would yu like to add something?
Eliza Madrigal will take the phrase "radical openness" with me now... must go :) Thanks so much Lia, everyone
Lia Rikugun: this is what pema said
Fael Illyar: See you later Eliza :)
Wol Euler: goodnight eiliza, take care
Pema Pera: bye Eliza!
Lia Rikugun: "radical openness"
Wol Euler: *eliza
Lia Rikugun: byebye
Eliza Madrigal: Bye for now, hugs
SophiaSharon Larnia: Bye Eliza
Pema Pera: openness can come in many degrees
Pema Pera: from an idea, to a stance, to an effort . . .
Pema Pera: the more radical ways are always surprising when you fall into them, even very briefly
Fael Illyar: Hi Yak :)
Wol Euler: hello yakuzza
Pema Pera: take for example Wol's question, about being open to what existence means
Pema Pera: Hi Yak!
Lia Rikugun: hi yakuzza
Pema Pera: about what really exists: Wol, perhaps existence is relative -- relative to a frame, an assumption, a kind of story we weave, but it may not be sensible to talk about something "existing" in any absolute way -- does that make sense?
doug Sosa: hi must go, garden calls..
Pema Pera: bye Doug!
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye doug
Lia Rikugun: bye doug
Wol Euler: get dirty, doug :)
Lia Rikugun: was good to see you
Wol Euler nods to Pema
doug Sosa: just as the words caught my attenntion!
Fael Illyar: See you later doug :)
doug Sosa: Anything like absolute existence is a contruct. Bye.
SophiaSharon Larnia: Lia, you said: lets go 2 paths, one critical one and one explorative one
SophiaSharon Larnia: is this what you mean by radical openness?
SophiaSharon Larnia: (or Pema) :))
Lia Rikugun: pema used the words radical openness, and I understand the explorative me as the very open one
Lia Rikugun: the critical one takes me back to the ground to rethink what I saw or felt
Lia Rikugun: to see if this makes sense
Pema Pera: it's part of it, Sophia, a way to go deeper and deeper, way deeper than you initially held possible
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes, i know what you mean by needing to go back to ground
SophiaSharon Larnia: ok
Lia Rikugun: i dont mean that the critical me will throw everything away which doesnt sound logical
Lia Rikugun: it will just say- maybe it is your imagination maybe it is more
Pema Pera: keeping that judgment open too
--BELL--
Wol Euler wonders about "imagination" as a negative term, a lesser quality. When Mozart imagined "Don Giovanni", was that an inferior moment?
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes, ive been thinking about the imagination piece the last few weeks :)
Archmage Atlantis: As one who wished to be a theoritical mathematician in a prior life, all logic does is extend the assumptions one makes when one begins the prove
Archmage Atlantis: *proof
Archmage Atlantis: Logic does not invalidate the assumptions
Lia Rikugun: well maybe imagination is part of the unconscious
Lia Rikugun: and what is the unconscious?
SophiaSharon Larnia: intuitive??
Lia Rikugun: or intuitive what is intuitive?
Pema Pera quietly leaving the party . . . RL calling -- thanks again, Lia!
SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Pema :))
Wol Euler: bye pema, take care.
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye pema
Lia Rikugun: was great seeing you
Fael Illyar: See you later Pema :)
Lia Rikugun: byebye
Archmage Atlantis: Bye Pema
Pema Pera: bye everybody!
SophiaSharon Larnia: intuitive as snsing a truth in it Lia
SophiaSharon Larnia: sensing*
Lia Rikugun: yes this is how i do the explorations, if i feel it is somehow true then it "makes sense" (even though it doesnt maek sense)
Lia Rikugun: but i dont throw the idea away just because it sounds absurde
SophiaSharon Larnia: for me, critically examining what is, and what is I wish it to be
Wol Euler nods
Fael Illyar: Lia do you mean it "feels sensible" instead of "logic makes sense"?
Lia Rikugun: as archmage said, maybe our assumptions are just wrong
Lia Rikugun: and if it sounds absurde with these assumptions it doesnt mean that in "reality" it is wrong
Archmage Atlantis: Lia, I did not say they were necesarily wrong
Lia Rikugun: (i am not sure if i am making sense)
Lia Rikugun: well i didnt say it either
Lia Rikugun: :)
Lia Rikugun: maybe not complete then
Archmage Atlantis: Or too complete
Lia Rikugun: or too complete ;)
Lia Rikugun: exactly
Lia Rikugun: i think this is a wonderful example
Lia Rikugun: in maths when we want to proof something we build our system onto some assumptions
Lia Rikugun: and can prrof in this system spomething
Wol Euler remembers Karl Gödel and smiles.
Lia Rikugun: some assumptions could be wrong
Lia Rikugun: have to google that wol :-s
SophiaSharon Larnia: grins
Wol Euler: oh, I'm very surprised :)
Wol Euler: incompleteness theorem?
Lia Rikugun: hm
Wol Euler: Karl said that there are statements which can be made within a system, which cannot be proven or disproven within that system.
Wol Euler: thus proving that an absolute, definite, always-valid mathematical/logical proof of the universe was imposssible
Lia Rikugun: (kurt) :)
Archmage Atlantis: I think the most startling RL example is Einstien vs. Euclid
Wol Euler: "Anything that can be proven, is true; but there are things that are true that cannot be proven."
Wol Euler: ah, right, thank you :) Too many years ago.
Lia Rikugun: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6...eness_theorems
Lia Rikugun: ups
Lia Rikugun: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goedel%27s_incompleteness_theorems
Lia Rikugun: yes i like this idea
Lia Rikugun: and it makes sense
SophiaSharon Larnia: Thank you Lia, I need to log off, Take care everyone :))
Wol Euler nods and smiles.
Wol Euler: bye sharon, take care.
Lia Rikugun: byebye sophia
Lia Rikugun: take care
Fael Illyar: See you later SophiaSharon :)
Archmage Atlantis: Bye
SophiaSharon Larnia: waves
Lia Rikugun: i think i will need to go to bed soon too
Lia Rikugun: i hope this was all interesting for you and I didnt pressure my words on you :)
Archmage Atlantis: Time for some "happy place" time
Lia Rikugun: :)
Archmage Atlantis: *smile*
Lia Rikugun: you all take care
Lia Rikugun: and good night
Wol Euler: goodngiht lia, and thank you very much.
Archmage Atlantis: Thank you for your generocity LIa
Fael Illyar: Good night Lia :)
Archmage Atlantis: Guess I need to stop ignoring my cat
Archmage Atlantis: Good discussion all
Wol Euler: :)
Wol Euler: goodngiht arch, take care.
Fael Illyar: See you later Arch :)
Arisia Vita: night Arch
Fael Illyar: Have fun with your cat :)
Wol Euler smiles
--BELL--
Arisia Vita: I need a bell to remind me to observe 90 seconds of chat... :)
Wol Euler: hjeheheheh
Wol Euler raises an eyebrow and waits patiently.
Arisia Vita: cna
Arisia Vita: can't think of a thing to say
Arisia Vita: except time for me to go, give others a chance...
Wol Euler: ach.
Wol Euler: bye ari, enjoy the day.
Fael Illyar: see you soon Ari :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: hmm :)
Fael Illyar: meep meep! :)
Wol Euler: mmm?
Wol Euler: Meep Meep ;P :p:P :p :P
Yakuzza Lethecus: lol
Yakuzza Lethecus: onigokko
Fael Illyar: oh :P
Wol Euler laughs
Yakuzza Lethecus: stop
Fael Illyar: I'm not wearing it :P
Yakuzza Lethecus: :), ok good night everyone :)
Fael Illyar: good night yakuzza :)
Wol Euler: 'night yakuzza, sleep well
Fael Illyar: I've discovered something about artistic work :)
Wol Euler: mmm?
Fael Illyar: going with the first thing that feels right tends to make the best result :)
Wol Euler: heheheh
Fael Illyar: I've made two posters that were quickies. First one an hour, second one a bit more.
Fael Illyar: I love both a lot :)
Fael Illyar: also this hairflower was a quickie
Wol Euler nods
Fael Illyar: except for the script... that's difficult as a quickie
Wol Euler: exept for simple tasks, yes
Wol Euler: that lion cub really is very cute :)
Fael Illyar: Yes, very :)
Fael Illyar: Well, I'll need to go. See you later Wol :)
Wol Euler: goodnight fael, take care
Fael Illyar: good night Wol :)
Fael Illyar waves.