2009.09.09 13:00 - Like going to the gym

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Fefonz Quan. The comments are by Fefonz Quan.

    Bertram Jacobus: hey fef ! ... :-)
    Fefonz Quan: hey Bert
    Bertram Jacobus: hello isa ... :-)
    Fefonz Quan: i still see balls instead of cushions
    Bertram Jacobus: i had bad rezzing the last days too
    Bertram Jacobus: but today its better here ... hm
    Fefonz Quan: Hey Isadora!
    Fefonz Quan: have a sit
    Isadora Davidov: Hello everyone...I could not make myself sit down.
    Bertram Jacobus: i´m a bit sad, that i did not manage it until now fef to write a bit about our uncleared topic, you know what i mean ? ...
    Fefonz Quan: can you remind me?
    Fefonz Quan: (fefonz is having a very busy week, sorry)
    Bertram Jacobus: yes. sure. whether emptyness could be good, nice and so on - remeber now ? ;-)
    Bertram Jacobus: and me a very busy life at the moment
    Fefonz Quan: yes, sure, a good topic.
    Bertram Jacobus: very kind ...
    Isadora Davidov: Bertram, do you have a specific meaning for "emptiness"?
    Bertram Jacobus: that´s very hard to say i find
    Bertram Jacobus: because in general it may be not even possible to express it - like "the finger which shows to the moon is not the moon"
    Isadora Davidov: Well, can you give some idea in words about what you mean...or Fefonz? I guess you two have discussed this quite a bit before.
    Bertram Jacobus: but i think it´s a kind of equivalent to buddhahood, absolute, even god may be - the thing with the thousand names ?
    Isadora Davidov: Yes, I don't think "emptiness" is a thing in itself...but it is a characteristic or property.
    Bertram Jacobus: yes. no thing
    Bertram Jacobus: but may be one can experience it
    Bertram Jacobus: whether nirvana is another word for it ?
    Isadora Davidov: I think if one has definitely directly realized emptiness one might very well be on the way to full realization
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
    Bertram Jacobus: one moment telephone
    Isadora Davidov: No...it is not a synonym for nirvana as I understand it...
    Fefonz Quan: Hey Yakuzza!
    Isadora Davidov: Hello Yakuzza
    Fefonz Quan agree with Isadora
    Fefonz Quan: it more a characteristic of reality, from my vague notion of it
    Fefonz Quan: is*
    Isadora Davidov: Emptiness is the word in English most often used in translating the term sunyata (Sanskrit)...although some do not prefer the term, because it may lead some to an incorrect nihilistic interpretation.
    Isadora Davidov: It refers to the ultimate status of persons and phenomena
    Bertram Jacobus: sry and back : hi yaku :-)
    Isadora Davidov: Both persons (people) and phenomena (objects, situations, thoughts) are "empty" of a permanent, inherently self-existent nature...they arise due to causes and conditions...so that is their relative status, ultimately they are said to "empty of" a permanent self-existent naturef-existent,
    Yakuzza Lethecus: wb :)
    Isadora Davidov: Is that helpful?
    Bertram Jacobus: i know these explanations , yes ...
    Isadora Davidov: Oh OK...
    Bertram Jacobus: may be the others too ? :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: but nice that you have them in mind isa :-)
    Isadora Davidov: So you mean what is it like to experience emptiness directly? also there are other points of view which concern "emptiness"
    Bertram Jacobus: yes. that was the thought. to experience it.
    Isadora Davidov: Oh...!! Yes, well there are metaphors....but I agree that would be more or less ineffable...the collapse of subject/object duality...
    Yakuzza Lethecus: wo could all try voice here, by the way :)
    Bertram Jacobus: i´m on voice but i think, that´s not the idea of the pab meetings ?
    Isadora Davidov: Oh..I guess I'm not...but please speak I can hear you...I have microphone but haven't hookt it up
    Yakuzza Lethecus: ok, nevermind :)
    Fefonz Quan: no it is not Bert
    Fefonz Quan: sorry for the interruption
    Isadora Davidov: I think it would be nice to hear the voices
    Yakuzza Lethecus: it was interesting :)
    Bertram Jacobus: because so it could not be recorded (yet?) ... ;-)
    Fefonz Quan: new continent, new infrastructure, new pc, new settings....
    Yakuzza Lethecus: anything you say can be deleted from the log if you wish
    Isadora Davidov: technologically challenged
    Bertram Jacobus: i like the idea too, but there are other places where we could test that perhaps, later or so ? :-)
    Isadora Davidov: could someone tell me how to do it?
    Fefonz Quan: do what?
    Isadora Davidov: speak rather than type
    Isadora Davidov: ok, thanks
    Isadora Davidov: Yes, I see it now, thank you.
    Fefonz Quan: oh, You go to Edit->preferences->voice chat
    Isadora Davidov: Oh...OK!
    Fefonz Quan: but we prefer not to use it here
    Isadora Davidov: Yes, I understand
    Bertram Jacobus: may be once the voice chat could be recorded, too (?) ... ;-)
    Fefonz Quan: i guess even if it can be done, it might be less convenient.
    Bertram Jacobus: some like it some not ...
    Fefonz Quan: no search, no jumpng back and forth
    Isadora Davidov: Oh, by the way, Bertram: the terms I used etc...and the point of view, is Mahayana Madyamika (Prasangika) ...so of course there are other views and now I see you might have been speaking from another view.re other views
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i like the recordings of stim´s rl sessions by the way
    Bertram Jacobus: but faster ! and in this point more comfortable
    Fefonz Quan: which recordings are you talking about Yaku?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: http://berkeleymonastery.org/steven/fall07.asp
    Bertram Jacobus: [sh\] ;-)
    Bertram Jacobus: whaow
    Fefonz Quan: thanks
    Bertram Jacobus: and isa - i have to say : i try to take these ideas more simple. sry. too complicated i can´t handle them very well ... hm - only my way of trying to handle that
    Bertram Jacobus: i hope that is not too disappointing for you (?) ... :-/
    Isadora Davidov: Umm...well, I have heard from one teacher that at the moment one realizes emptiness directly...it's like pouring water into water an all appearanances collapse...
    Isadora Davidov: and
    Isadora Davidov: appearances
    Bertram Jacobus: yes. i can imagine that very well and understand ... :-)
    Isadora Davidov: well, then...that is quite something!
    Bertram Jacobus: and i like words like that very much too. no problems with typos beside :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: ty for them ! (the words) :-)
    Isadora Davidov: oh thank you...so that would be a very great thing...to have such an experience!
    Fefonz Quan: Yet as Pema or Stim might say, that is when described as a 'process' happening in time
    Bertram Jacobus: don´t we experience more and more experiences, especially spiritual ones on our ways ?
    Isadora Davidov: Hmm...what do you think they mean...I have not heard much from them directly on this topic..
    Fefonz Quan: just to note that all i say about it is not from direct knowledge, so don't take my word on it completely
    Fefonz Quan: In a way they mean, that the notion of linear time, advancing from past to future through the present, is also just an appearance, and that one is also empty
    Isadora Davidov: my training and experiences are not extensive enough...maybe if somehow I go further in this lifetime...I could say more...and some say all beings have the capacity...I myself have not developed much capacity for direct realization
    Fefonz Quan: hence from the 'realized' point of view, there is no point in talking about an 'experiencer' who 'progress' till it sees emptiness
    Isadora Davidov: Fefonz...I am sorry, I typed over you...could you say the first comment again...yes, from an ultimate point of view...but here I am in the relative mode..using language
    Isadora Davidov: about time?
    Fefonz Quan: yes, this ultimate-relative issue is trickey
    Fefonz Quan: about time - it is said that from the 'ultimate' point of view, there is no linear time evolving
    Isadora Davidov: Oh...thank you...yes...although I can read and even say it...I'm stuck in the linear mostly!
    Fefonz Quan: so a kind of 'no-space no-time no-self ' is what we are talking about
    Isadora Davidov: Have you a method of experiencing that?
    Bertram Jacobus: for me it´s helpful to know that also time is relative ...
    Fefonz Quan: or in the words of the heart sutra - no suffering, no end of suffering, and no path
    Bertram Jacobus: that it related to speed for example
    Bertram Jacobus: + is
    Isadora Davidov: Right...helps to recall both those things...but just thinking and recalling is not enough for me
    Bertram Jacobus: and also our experience of time is extremly various
    Fefonz Quan: how do you find it helpful bert?
    Fefonz Quan nods to Isadora
    Bertram Jacobus: in a way which takes me away from the stucking idea it was an absolute aspect
    Bertram Jacobus: or something fixed
    Bertram Jacobus: in the way of studying, comtemplate and at least realize may be.
    Isadora Davidov: Maybe there are time exercises?
    Bertram Jacobus: at last sry
    Fefonz Quan: yes, it does liberates some concepts and ideas we take for granted
    Bertram Jacobus: exactly fef. so i experience that :-)
    Isadora Davidov: Oh right...I forgot...being in the "now"...tha's one
    Bertram Jacobus: another tool. yes :-)
    Fefonz Quan: yes, and the one with droping the past, then droping the future, then.... te present
    Fefonz Quan: dropping**
    Bertram Jacobus: again : ah, yes :-)
    Isadora Davidov: Recognizing the past only exists as we conceive (of) it in the present
    Fefonz Quan nods
    Bertram Jacobus: so many words ...
    Fefonz Quan: yes, i find it also very mind boggling
    Isadora Davidov: Well me...I am always drifting off into memory or plans
    Bertram Jacobus: that´s normal all dharmas say ... :-)
    Fefonz Quan: and focusing no the now, as basic and cliche as it sounds, does make miracles sometimes
    Isadora Davidov: Yes, my regular samsara
    Fefonz Quan: on the now *
    Isadora Davidov: YEs, yes...very good!
    Fefonz Quan: we did one of these kind in the RL retreat, as you may recall, Isadora
    Isadora Davidov: time experiment?
    Fefonz Quan: yes, the stage with dropping the personal history
    Isadora Davidov: Right...now I remember...
    Bertram Jacobus: sounds very interesting : is that possible ? to drop personal history ?
    Fefonz Quan: you can try it Bert: first, contemplate for a couple of minuts your personal history, without getting attached or judgemental about it.
    Fefonz Quan: Then, contemplate on who you are, but while dropping the history behind and focus on now
    Bertram Jacobus: i see. but sounds easier to me then to be done (!) (?) :-)
    Fefonz Quan: In a way, when you are engaged in some action wholly, you don't have time/will to bring up your personal history to the playground
    Isadora Davidov: Well...if you do it for a few minutes...what "comes up" for you?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i need sleep, good night everyone maybe day isa
    Fefonz Quan: Good night Yakuzza!
    Isadora Davidov: Oh Yakuzza, good night...rest well!
    Bertram Jacobus: i think getting attached and judgement would come up - no ?
    Fefonz Quan: up to some level i guess. it is a practice, so it might get better :)
    Isadora Davidov: Well...it would be normal to have lots of feelings and conclusions about what you'd experienced in life...the people, the events, the places...then there are futher parts to the exercise
    Bertram Jacobus: yes. training and time (!) could help may be ...
    Bertram Jacobus: and great ideas
    Bertram Jacobus: nice ideas
    Bertram Jacobus: very interesting
    Isadora Davidov: You have no doubt already developed some perspective on what has happened to you and what made you "who" you are...that is the basis of our normal everyday life experience
    Bertram Jacobus: how was your experience with that ?
    Isadora Davidov: Me? Well...I categorized: the big tragedy, then the normal disasters and down the line so on...the large mistakes, the minor mistakes...etc
    Bertram Jacobus: (both) (?) :-)
    Fefonz Quan: For me,ii could partly see that i can let go of some of the past, see a space of freedom to act
    Bertram Jacobus: whaow
    Bertram Jacobus: how nice
    Isadora Davidov: Oh yes, that would be the good result
    Fefonz Quan: i am sure it needs more practice in order to make it more deep into daily life, not just for the exercise time interval
    Bertram Jacobus: i agree very much. it is often said, that the exercises are only the first step in acalm surrounding . and then slowly also more uncalm surroundings allow to stay in the good stages and moods or how one can say that. state of conciousness ? :-)
    Fefonz Quan: maybe it is like going to the gym - the muscles and airobic shape you develop there, manifest in your walk and moves everywhere you go
    Bertram Jacobus: nice picture ! :-)
    Isadora Davidov: That is integration of the practice...
    Fefonz Quan nods
    Bertram Jacobus: here it´s 11 pm - have to stop . sad but reasonable ... ;-)
    Fefonz Quan: bye ert
    Fefonz Quan: Bert :) 12 here too...
    Isadora Davidov: Yes... I should go to...Fefonz Bertram..thank you so much...that was really helpful!S
    Bertram Jacobus: ty for the very nice talk and sharing of your experiences and thoughts !
    Fefonz Quan: thanks you Isa and Bert for the talk!
    Bertram Jacobus: for me too : it´s like to get energy ...
    Fefonz Quan: good night/morning
    Isadora Davidov: Great to see you both!
    Bertram Jacobus: have a nice time
    Isadora Davidov: Good bye.
    Fefonz Quan: _/!\_

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