2009.09.11 13:00 - "true self"

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Lia Rikugun. The comments are by Lia Rikugun.

    Sunfire Langer: Hello, Lia
    Lia Rikugun: helo sunfire
    Sunfire Langer: so, whats new?
    Lia Rikugun: hm every day a lot :)
    Lia Rikugun: and with you?


    people think in specific perspectives and start identifying themselves with those perspectives...

    Sunfire Langer: things. Mulling over paradigm rigidity
    Lia Rikugun: what does this mean?
    Lia Rikugun: my english is not the best sorry
    Sunfire Langer: people commit to thinking in a certain way and becoming inflexible
    Lia Rikugun: out of lazyness?
    doug Sosa: hi all.
    Sunfire Langer: Out of fear
    Sunfire Langer: hi doug
    Lia Rikugun: hello doug
    Lia Rikugun: hello pila
    Pila Mulligan: hi Lia, Doug and Sunfire
    doug Sosa: hi lia :)
    Sunfire Langer: hi Pila
    Lia Rikugun: so sunfire we have to keep our thought flexibke?
    Sunfire Langer: I think we ought to be ready to embrace new perspectives
    Pila Mulligan: things change :)
    Sunfire Langer: if we identify too strongly with one paradigm, sometimes we feel our identity is defined by t
    Sunfire Langer: it*


    embracing a new perspective

    doug Sosa: since we talk about experience, what is the experience like of embracing anew perspective? i mean the experience during the time between starting and achieving?
    Lia Rikugun: maybe confusion?
    doug Sosa: iam thinking that a new perspeive is to tender that "enbracing " it maynbe too rough.
    Sunfire Langer: Connection to other beings? the excitement of liberation?
    Pila Mulligan: my several prespective transitions have been gradual, mostly recognized after the fact
    Lia Rikugun: what do you exactly mean by 'poerspective'
    doug Sosa: yea, that was sort of wat i wanted to express.
    Pila Mulligan: point of view
    Pila Mulligan: an approach to something
    Lia Rikugun: in our daily life?
    Lia Rikugun: i change my view on something
    doug Sosa: "perspective has onething in relation to another, a whole field narowed down to one point looking out.
    Sunfire Langer: Thinking as a Law Enforcer, for example, or thinking as a Relativist, or thinking as an Agnostic
    doug Sosa: but it feels to me moregenerous than that.
    Lia Rikugun: ok thank you
    doug Sosa: "perspective" does.
    doug Sosa: Those are good examples.
    Bertram Jacobus: hello everybody ! ...
    Pila Mulligan: hi Bert [90 secs]
    Lia Rikugun: hi bertram :)


    Pila has a nice perspective looking outside his window

    Pila Mulligan: it is about 10:16 am here and outside the window there's a soft white moon still present in a deep blue sky
    Lia Rikugun: wow this must be wonderful!
    Pila Mulligan: nice perspective :)
    Bertram Jacobus: ups - ty - how unaware from me (!) (tz) ...
    Lia Rikugun: bertram we were talking about getting different perspectives
    Bertram Jacobus: ty lia :-)
    Lia Rikugun: like seeing the wolrd from a relativistic point of view
    Lia Rikugun: or as an agnosticist
    Bertram Jacobus: yes. i see :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: gnosis versus agnosis, too ? ;-)
    Lia Rikugun: gnosis?
    Bertram Jacobus: believing
    Lia Rikugun: erkenntnis!
    Lia Rikugun: ty
    Sunfire Langer: believing how, Bertram?
    Bertram Jacobus: if i don´t doubt, gnosis means believe (?)
    Bertram Jacobus: don´t fail, sry
    Bertram Jacobus: not doubt
    Sunfire Langer: but how to believe...
    Bertram Jacobus: when my knowledge in this point is correct
    Bertram Jacobus: how to believe ... interesting question ... i don´t know very well ...
    Bertram Jacobus: i think it´s a kind of help for many persons at points where they don´t know
    Sunfire Langer: perhaps feeling the truth, is that knowing?
    Lia Rikugun: whatever the truth may be:)


    It could be wrong, it could be true"

    doug Sosa: i want to keep a space where i can believe and yet know i could be wrong.
    Lia Rikugun: exactlythis is what i want too
    Bertram Jacobus: for me knowing is a very normal "thing" . having experienced something, be able to repeat these experiences and to know how they will be so until a falsification happens
    Bertram Jacobus: a change
    Sunfire Langer: that seems a very scientific perspective
    Bertram Jacobus: for me it´s my experience and orientation : experience, clues and feeling, of course, too.
    Bertram Jacobus: the modern art to try to understand life, world and all ... :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: or, another expression : heart AND mind - thats what i like
    doug Sosa: it is intersting to try to say what we experience using few technical words, as few as possible.
    Bertram Jacobus: yes. i like simplicity very much
    Sunfire Langer: The intellect knows a lot, the heart knows other things...
    doug Sosa: at the retreat we had that wonderful phrase, " a mind is a terrible thing to watch."
    Bertram Jacobus: lol
    Bertram Jacobus: very nice :-)
    Pila Mulligan: hi Wol
    Lia Rikugun: hello wol
    Bertram Jacobus: hello wol ... :-)


    watching the world from the perspective of love

    Sunfire Langer: it is when not watched from the perspective of love
    doug Sosa: :)
    doug Sosa: can love be a perspective? Feels to me less geometric and more diffused
    Bertram Jacobus: for me is love being and coming together
    Bertram Jacobus: and may be sun meant the state, the level of love (?9
    Bertram Jacobus: ups (?), not (?9
    Sunfire Langer: I think in looking at things from the perspective of love, we can see people, instead of problems
    Wol Euler nods
    Lia Rikugun: so what is the perspective we should look for?
    Sunfire Langer: it is a perspective sometimes forgotten by the intellect, to its own dismay
    Lia Rikugun: should we constantly try to change the perspective? to keepp an open mind
    Lia Rikugun: and heart
    Sunfire Langer: If we could approach the topic from a whollistic perspective...
    Bertram Jacobus: i try to take it as is is - when it´s good ;-)
    Lia Rikugun: asit is
    Bertram Jacobus: as it is ...
    Bertram Jacobus: yes. ty :-)
    doug Sosa: note the language perspective and look for are both visual metaphors.
    Lia Rikugun: i was justrepeating for myself :)
    Bertram Jacobus: well done lia ! :-)
    Lia Rikugun: hehe :)
    Sunfire Langer: do we always need the specifics of what and how?
    Lia Rikugun: it may be completely differnt for everybody else
    Bertram Jacobus: "need" ...
    Sunfire Langer: :)
    Sunfire Langer: do we always 'want' them?
    Lia Rikugun: sometimes its good to justtry out something
    Lia Rikugun: sometimes its good to get some hints
    Lia Rikugun: where to look at what to look for
    Lia Rikugun: no?
    Wol Euler: yes
    Bertram Jacobus: yes. but sometimes it´s nice to relax, too
    Bertram Jacobus: hello eliza
    Wol Euler: hello eliza
    Lia Rikugun: and see what happens exactly
    Pila Mulligan: hi Eliza
    Lia Rikugun: hello eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Everyone :)
    Bertram Jacobus: yes lia. for me it´s both : sometimes interest in so many things and sometimes relaxin ...
    doug Sosa: (need to go ) shh.
    Lia Rikugun: (bye doug ;))
    Bertram Jacobus: perfect bye of doug that was ... :-)
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Wol Euler: quite in character.
    Lia Rikugun: sorry eliza i forgot to give you a brief overview abou tour discussion
    Lia Rikugun: we were talking about having different perspectives
    Eliza Madrigal: Thanks Lia :)
    Lia Rikugun: and that it is sometimes better to not have any ideas in mind
    Lia Rikugun: where to gom, what to look for
    Lia Rikugun: did i summarize this correctly?
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, nice. I like that idea of letting something or situation say something before you frame it... greeting it anew...?
    Bertram Jacobus: i´m not long enough here to say
    Bertram Jacobus: i came a bit late too
    Lia Rikugun: so what is our conclusion?
    Sunfire Langer: to embrace experience unconditionally, Eliza?
    Wol Euler: one might call that "being in the Moment" :)
    Lia Rikugun: be open, see things as they are
    Lia Rikugun: yes this is what i look for
    Lia Rikugun: being in the moment is not so easy ;)
    Sunfire Langer: yes, Lia
    Wol Euler: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Sunfire, maybe yes...
    Lia Rikugun: especially forgetting the self in this moment
    Wol Euler: life gets in the way. "Look at me, I'm shiny and flickering!"
    Lia Rikugun: i am trying to collect those experiences of no-self moments
    Eliza Madrigal: I think of it as that first look from someone.. "Hello!"
    Lia Rikugun: what do you mean eliza?
    Lia Rikugun: yes wol, in daily life it is somehow difficult
    Eliza Madrigal: Before anything has been said... just ready to be friendly
    Lia Rikugun: and just be
    Lia Rikugun: do the intuitive
    Eliza Madrigal: even if the moment before hand't gone well too... that takes intention?
    Eliza Madrigal: *hadn't
    Bertram Jacobus: hy qt :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Qt :)
    Wol Euler: hello qt
    Pila Mulligan: hi QT
    Lia Rikugun: hello qt


    wu-wei as actionless-action? and what is the true self?

    Sunfire Langer: there is the Buddhist idea of actionless-action
    Lia Rikugun: actionless action?
    Lia Rikugun: is this cortrect?
    Bertram Jacobus: or isn´t it taoism too ? wu wei ?
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, wu-wei?
    Lia Rikugun: but it does not mean actionless...
    Lia Rikugun: it just means does not do anything against your true self
    Lia Rikugun: any action coming from the true self is easy to do
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Lia Rikugun: it just happens
    Lia Rikugun: there is not effort
    Lia Rikugun: but i think it is full of actions
    Lia Rikugun: wu-wei
    Lia Rikugun: hwo do you see it?
    Lia Rikugun: did i understand it in a wrong way?
    Sunfire Langer: who is the true self?
    Lia Rikugun: well this is what you have to find out
    Lia Rikugun: :)
    Wol Euler: I wold agree, Lia, but I'm not an expert :)
    Lia Rikugun: me neither
    Bertram Jacobus: i understand wu wei as being with the universe
    Eliza Madrigal: There's been discussion lately about whether it is possible to cultivate an environment for wu-wei ... because one can't seem to purposefully DO wu-wei
    Sunfire Langer: but allow it to descend
    Lia Rikugun: bertram be with the universe is swimming in the flow and do the things which are true to you
    Lia Rikugun: thats how i see it
    Pila Mulligan: http://playasbeing.wik.is/PaB_Books/..._Play_as_Being
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, kind of getting in tune and then just see what that means
    Wol Euler: mmhmm
    Bertram Jacobus: in my understanding there is then no i anymore
    Lia Rikugun: well
    Pila Mulligan: that is a link to a dialogue between Pema and Stim on wu wei
    Lia Rikugun: i not as in i but there is no more word then exactly
    Pila Mulligan: hi Eos
    Eliza Madrigal: Hello Eos :)
    Lia Rikugun: hello eos
    Eos Amaterasu: Howdy Partners
    Bertram Jacobus: hello eos ... :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: no more words lia ?
    Wol Euler: hello eos
    Lia Rikugun: hm
    Lia Rikugun: i have difficulties to express myself;)
    Wol Euler sneaks out quietly to a previous engagement. Goodbye all, enjoy the evening!
    Eos Amaterasu: :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: Interesting that the wu-wei topic compliments seeing with fresh perspective... welcoming.
    Bertram Jacobus: ups. bye wol ...
    Lia Rikugun: i try to rephrase
    Bertram Jacobus: yes. fine. ty
    Lia Rikugun: hm
    Lia Rikugun: i think as we are part of something big
    Lia Rikugun: we must all have the truth in us already
    Lia Rikugun: right?
    Lia Rikugun: so when i speak of the true me, the true self
    Pila Mulligan: excuse me, Lia, I am going to the same meeting as Wol -- bye for now
    Bertram Jacobus: bye pila ...
    Eliza Madrigal: Being
    Lia Rikugun: i dont exactly mean the me here in SL or RL
    Lia Rikugun: but basically just be
    Lia Rikugun: so in this way i didnt use the correct words
    Eliza Madrigal: I like the way you phrase it... true
    Lia Rikugun: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I have to go also though, what a nice topic
    Eliza Madrigal: hard to drag away :)
    Lia Rikugun: byebye eliza
    Bertram Jacobus: bye eliza ...
    Eliza Madrigal: Thanks guys, Bye for now :)
    Eos Amaterasu: RE " Lia Rikugun: i dont exactly mean the me here in SL or RL" lately I've been tying together the 9 or 90 or whatever in both SL RL simultaneously
    Eos Amaterasu: very powrful, kind of obvious, but still surprising
    Lia Rikugun: i didnt understand sorry what do you mean?
    Bertram Jacobus: me not too :-/
    Eos Amaterasu: I mean when I do the 90 secs here, I pay attention to also doing it imy RL body and context
    Eos Amaterasu: so it crossed SL/RL boundaries
    Eos Amaterasu: *crosses
    Lia Rikugun: haha wow how is this possible
    Lia Rikugun: you let your avatar do 90 secs and your real bosy do 9secs ;)
    Lia Rikugun: double meditation
    Eos Amaterasu: of course :-)
    Lia Rikugun: wow
    Eos Amaterasu: it's really not two
    Lia Rikugun: this is also what i tried to do in a different way though
    Eos Amaterasu: Is that the sort of thing you meant?
    Lia Rikugun: no? eos do you want to tell us more?
    Lia Rikugun: you meant before when i was talking about the me?
    Lia Rikugun: i am not sure but i dont think so
    Eos Amaterasu: I mean something really simple. When the bell rings for 90 secs, I stop my RL body also, and do the 90 secs - the 90 secs in SL kind of pull in the 90 secs in RL
    Lia Rikugun: previously we were talking about wu wei
    Lia Rikugun: ok :)
    Eos Amaterasu: both SL and RL are playthings of something bigger
    Lia Rikugun: the big being :)
    Eos Amaterasu: bigger even than the big bang :-)
    Lia Rikugun: well in a way we are all talking about the same thing then ;
    Bertram Jacobus: sry - i´ll leave too - have a good time and ty ! ...
    Lia Rikugun: byebye bertram
    Eos Amaterasu: Ciao!
    Bertram Jacobus: ty again ... :-)
    Lia Rikugun: so we were talking about wu wei and i understood it in a way that wu-wei is action full you just do everything which is your true self the true me but it doesnt make any effort
    Lia Rikugun: so the term "me" is confusing here
    Eos Amaterasu: if you're 100% resting in yourself, in yourself as a presentation of being, there's no effort
    Lia Rikugun: bertram said, at this point there should be no me anymore
    Lia Rikugun: so i had to rephrase
    Eos Amaterasu: "no me" is tricky - I would say no me is not so much less than me as more than me
    Lia Rikugun: saying that i believe being is already in me
    Eos Amaterasu: the "no Me" includes "all me" and "all that"
    Lia Rikugun: so the true self is not the 'RL or SL' me but more the being me
    Lia Rikugun: you see it is difficult wioth all the diffinitions and words
    Pila Mulligan: excuse me please - anyone nterested in the land meeting should IM Wol for a tp
    Lia Rikugun: thank you pila
    Pila Mulligan: or go to http://slurl.com/secondlife/Mugunghwa/127/162/33
    Eos Amaterasu: OH, I'm interested int hat, and in the village
    Pila Mulligan: thank you Lia -- sorry to interrupt :)
    Pila Mulligan: ues
    Pila Mulligan: bye for now
    Pila Mulligan: yes*
    Eos Amaterasu: Lia, I think I will TP over to the meeting, but I'd love to continue this conversation another time
    Lia Rikugun: ok eos
    Lia Rikugun: it was very nice thank you!
    Lia Rikugun: :)
    Eos Amaterasu: nice to see you here in SL, after RL meeting
    Lia Rikugun: yes definitely ;)
    Eos Amaterasu: Bye!

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