2009.09.19 07:00 - A Tightrope Only IF You Are Afraid

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Eliza Madrigal, filling in for Sophia Placebo. The comments are by Eliza Madrigal.

    An exhilarating session in which Corvi, SophiaSharon, Gaya, Fael, and I share thoughts about risk-taking, guilt, fear, and 'coming from nothingness'.

    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Corvi!
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: G'mornin, Eliza!
    Eliza Madrigal: How nice to see you. Happy Saturday :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Happy Saturday to you, too.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: what have you been thinking about lately?
    Eliza Madrigal: All kinds of things...
    Corvuscorva Nightfire grins.
    Eliza Madrigal: This morning I watched an interview with Juliette Binoche, for instance..
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Juliette Binoche?
    Eliza Madrigal: and she talked about risk taking a bit... and coming from nothingness
    Eliza Madrigal: yes :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: ohhhh
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: that's cool! I've been thinking about that too.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: what did she say?
    Eliza Madrigal: yes?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: well..I've been thinking about risk taking
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: not coming from nothingness.
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, please share!
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: nothing that profound.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Eliza and Corvi :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi Sophia!
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi SophiaSharon :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I think what we talk about here a lot... is living on a kind of edge...
    Eliza Madrigal: or living from an edge?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire listens.
    Eliza Madrigal: She seemed to touch on that, and I wonder if risk taking in that light becomes a very dynamic thing :)
    Eliza Madrigal: (SophiaSharon, I mentioned a Charlie Rose interview with Juliette BInoche)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: thank you
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I've been thinking about guilt and risk taking...problem solving and guilt...and thinking about how to make decisions without using guilt as a marker for "right thing to do, wrong thing to do"
    Eliza Madrigal: She acts, paints, writes poetry... talked about how money and fame were never sufficient motivators...
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods, thoughtfully.
    Eliza Madrigal: but dancing that edge... yes, quite a motivator :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello :)
    Eliza Madrigal: So I wonder about the edge between risk and recklessness
    SophiaSharon Larnia: HI Gaya
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Gaya :))
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi, Gaya!
    Eliza Madrigal: So those are my thoughts on risk taking... Others? Or Other topics? :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks for the note Corvi :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: by saying you are taking a risk, implies you have something to lose
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: welcome...I jsut passed the note of the conversation so far to Sophia and Gaya.
    Eliza Madrigal: Thanks so much Corvi :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: What did it spark in you, Eliza?
    Eliza Madrigal: A desire to sky dive :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles

    Fael arrives

    Corvuscorva Nightfire: gigggles
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Fael
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Fael :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi, Fael.
    Fael Illyar: Hi Sophia, Corvi, Eliza, Gaya, Doug :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Fael, you have a frog on your head ;p
    Fael Illyar: Oh? I didn't notice :)
    Eliza Madrigal giggles
    SophiaSharon Larnia: smirks'
    Eliza Madrigal: She has a prince on her head
    Gaya Ethaniel: Go for it Eliza!
    Fael Illyar smiles.
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: skydiving is something ive wanted to do for years and havent done yet
    Eliza Madrigal smiles. I don't know if it is necessary to do it physically yet...
    Fael Illyar: RL? SL?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: me Fael? rl
    Eliza Madrigal: There are little booths one can be suspended in...
    Eliza Madrigal: that might be fun to try first
    Eliza Madrigal: this idea is more about that experience within other experiences...don't know why I relate it to 'coming from nothing'
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i understand the fear if you have something to lose, such as your life or your family's loss of you
    Eliza Madrigal: but for instance a painter can start with a just a line... just a leap
    SophiaSharon Larnia: but in tis risk taking that you are talking of..
    Eliza Madrigal: yes exactly SophiaSharon...we are 'responsible' for others
    SophiaSharon Larnia: what is it that your losing?
    Eliza Madrigal: I think the process shows that?
    Eliza Madrigal: even just when we talk here, don't we risk something sometimes?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: (yea i risk looking stupid)
    Eliza Madrigal: hehe yes, sure, that's one thing :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: pffft
    Eliza Madrigal: heheh
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: neither of you could look stupid if you tried
    SophiaSharon Larnia: grins
    Fael Illyar smiles.
    Eliza Madrigal giggles and purposefully doesn't point to numerous occasions...hahahha
    Corvuscorva Nightfire rolls her eyes.

    Gaya brings up a wonderful film...

    Gaya Ethaniel: Must be a French thing ... heheheh
    Gaya Ethaniel: Have you guys seen "Man on WIre"?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: ok..here in the us all those stupid things would look elegant and brilliant..
    Corvuscorva Nightfire grins with assurance.
    Eliza Madrigal: YES Gaya...love that film
    Gaya Ethaniel: He says ... let me look up ...
    Eliza Madrigal: A French clown... reckless, elegant...brilliant
    Gaya Ethaniel: "Life should be lived on the edge – see every day as a true challenge and then you live your life on a tightrope."
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i cant help think it's a tightrope only if your afraid
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods thoughtfully


    Corvuscorva Nightfire: that's what I've been thinking about guilt.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I use it to keep me on the tightrope
    Eliza Madrigal: Hmm
    Eliza Madrigal listens
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah ... I see the connection now.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: but what if there are some simpler ways to stay upright?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I don't want to lose "doing the right thing"
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: but I don't want to use fear to do it.
    Eliza Madrigal: Ahhh wow yes
    Eliza Madrigal: responsible yet free
    Eliza Madrigal: that is a tightrope
    Gaya Ethaniel: That can become an ostacle ... think/try to "do the right thing."
    Fael Illyar: what more do you need for doing the right thing than simple will to do so?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire narrows her eyes..quite oftne I don't have the will to do so.
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: nods
    Eliza Madrigal: and 'right'...can be such a subjective word
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: exactly
    Fael Illyar: so you use guilt to bring that will out from yourself? Why?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: good question.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Will comes out naturally I think.
    Gaya Ethaniel: It's not something I can manufacture from goals ... fear etc.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: one that seems a little dangerous to explore...what if I just let go of guilt(cruel self judgement) and the fear that follows...
    Fael Illyar: why would you torment yourself with guilt unless you actually wanted to do the right thing?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: and just go do bad things cause I don't care anymore?
    Gaya Ethaniel thinks ...
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: or choose to do no good things, cause they are not required by guilt and fear.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: because a part of you does care
    SophiaSharon Larnia: maybe
    Eliza Madrigal: Fael, that is interesting... that a person who feels much guilt might be coming from quite a place of desire to do well...
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: me laughs..you know what I see....is a bunch of unruly children in my heart running free and doing awful things...cause there is no strict parent.
    Eliza Madrigal: maybe IN that is the doorway to transcend it
    Eliza Madrigal: Thing 1 and Thing2 Corvi?
    Eliza Madrigal: heheh
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: heheh...nods.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: we are all a bunch of unruly children at heart :P
    Fael Illyar: strict parent? or perhaps loving parent that would give them attention when they need it?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles wryly at Fael.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I don't know if that parent is around either.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Sometimes I need to be firm at those unruly children but out of care.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Though in my case, I first try out dropping self-criticism.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: this is something I'm considering as a goal...asking that judge to step aside and watch instead of judging.
    Eliza Madrigal: Part of that interview today, Charlie said that one only regrets what they say no to...rarely what they say yes to
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, Corvi... that's a reasonable request :)

    SophiaSharon asks quite a question...

    SophiaSharon Larnia: Eliza, can you explain this risk taking coming from nothingness?
    Eliza Madrigal: Oooo I really want to
    Eliza Madrigal grins
    Gaya Ethaniel: Self-criticism often creates pressure, sometimes demotivate myself enough not to do something I set out to.
    Eliza Madrigal: I really want to display it!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: listens
    SophiaSharon Larnia: what does it mean?
    Fael Illyar: yes, something not done leaves one without undestanding. Something done leaves one with more understanding.
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, there is treasure in there either way
    Eliza Madrigal: The closest example I have is a good friend who was in a terribly limiting situation...
    Eliza Madrigal: and one day with her children, began to play around with their paints...
    Gaya Ethaniel: If you can practice dropping bit by bit on a task that is not too challenging and learn from the process, the result can seep into other areas of your life ... well I've been doing that anyway.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Go slow ... and easy on yourself Corvi :)
    Eliza Madrigal: painted a figure.. crouched in corner... showed a group of us... someone bought it from her... she just kept going with that... and now is quite a successful artist
    Corvuscorva Nightfire grins
    Eliza Madrigal: She painted she and her children out of a corner, literally
    Eliza Madrigal: from nothing
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes, i see, but that talent was in her to do
    Eliza Madrigal: was it?
    Eliza Madrigal: she might never have known....
    Gaya Ethaniel: Everyone has talent in something.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: she was pushed
    Eliza Madrigal: showing it to a group of us was a vulnerable moment for her
    Eliza Madrigal: she exposed herself completely
    Eliza Madrigal: dove
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: thats not an easy thing to do
    SophiaSharon Larnia: its taking a huge risk of rejection :)
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Eliza Madrigal: even now she gives interviews and tells the real story
    Gaya Ethaniel: With enough practice, vulnerable moments will become something one feels compelled to do ... fear doesn't figure in that picture imo.
    Eliza Madrigal: No?
    Fael Illyar: the leap of faith into the unknown and scary...
    Eliza Madrigal: Do you think confidence, boldness rises... AH...yes Gaya!! naturally!
    Gaya Ethaniel: Not sure about leaping ... start small ... build up confidence.
    Gaya Ethaniel nods :)
    Fael Illyar: even small leap is a leap :)
    Eliza Madrigal thinks sometimes one needs to leap over all the fear...like ripping off the band aid
    Gaya Ethaniel: Need encouagement by oneself as well as from others ... but self-apraising is essential I think.
    Eliza Madrigal: funny how guilt and fear end up in the same conversations so often :)
    Fael Illyar: guilt is fear
    Eliza Madrigal: shame/hiding
    Gaya Ethaniel: I've changed my mind about risk over time ... doesn't have to dive in.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: the other night Three challenged me on something....and reminded me that guilt is a judgement
    Eliza Madrigal listens
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: so I asked..what is this feeling that I think of as guilt, a tightening in my chest?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: fear.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: which helped...remind me that guilt is about thinking.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: and the result is fear.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: a feeling
    Eliza Madrigal: hmm, yes
    Eliza Madrigal: if we can see that... maybe we don't have to let it limit us
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods...that fear is used as a stop sign...don't go there!
    Gaya Ethaniel nods ... guilt out of judging a situation against one's 'standard'.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: which is a kind of shorthand for us...we don't have to think through why not to touch that particular stove.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: but...it is limiting, too.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: is a boundary
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: and prevents me sometimes from doing what is most right for the situation.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Have you discovered what you're judging yourself against Corvi?
    Eliza Madrigal thinks of the jar test.... where the frogs don't jump beyond the barrier that 'used' to be there
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Kind of self-images?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire thinks of what the judge looks for.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: mmm...mostly disappointing people, I think...that's the usual litmus test.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: kinda sucks as a test of "goodness"
    Eliza Madrigal nods vigorously
    Fael Illyar: Yes... almost anything at all you do, someone will be disappointed.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods vigourously.

    Greedy for love?

    Gaya Ethaniel: So ... your self-image in this would be a person who is loved and popular etc?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire thinks...I'd liked to be loved, anyway.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Everyone does I think :)
    Eliza Madrigal: yes :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire thinks...and I am admittedly greedy.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Perhaps linking that to 'being good' is problematic?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: oh yes.
    Eliza Madrigal giggles... me too...evidenced by my attendance at PaB
    Corvuscorva Nightfire grins at Eliza.
    Gaya Ethaniel: People can love each other for who we are ... just as we are. If not, it's not real love we would like, is it?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: true
    Fael Illyar: love is always real. It just easily gets hidden behind all the fears.
    Fael Illyar: and the person becomes unable to express it anymore.
    Eliza Madrigal: there's the risk taking then....
    Gaya Ethaniel: Fear comes I think because you want to be 'good' and find yourself in situations that you can't stick to that rule ... so feeling divided, uncertain, probably a physical pain as Corvi described.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: well I think it's lucky for me, that people love us for who we are..*smiles warmly at Gaya*
    Gaya Ethaniel: *big smile*
    Eliza Madrigal: it seems to me taking a broken heart... and rather than looking to heal it... looking to break it more and more
    Corvuscorva Nightfire considers..."say more?"
    Eliza Madrigal: and somehow let that be a natural state...
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: hmm..
    Gaya Ethaniel: I was thinking about this point ... last night actually ... about 'fixed views'.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: fixed views?
    Fael Illyar: Eliza, yes, that is what happens when there's a lack of love for yourself... or more like, that is the result.
    Gaya Ethaniel: yeah ... in loving-kindness verse mentions [let me look up] ...
    Gaya Ethaniel: By not holding to fixed views, The pure-hearted one, having clarity of vision, Being freed from all sense desires, Is not born again into this world.
    Gaya Ethaniel: It makes sense ... I think. Does that make sense to you Corvi? Holding onto 'being good'?
    Gaya Ethaniel: To obtain love/affection etc
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: thinks more about this.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I think I'm a lonnnnnng way from that.
    Eliza Madrigal: I'm not sure... I think there is life/love there in a way, Fael... like nothing TO lose so can really fly ... be love?
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh those edges are tricky to articulate
    Fael Illyar: tricky subject :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :) start small Corvi, practice on something different, not on this particular issue.
    Gaya Ethaniel: Practice being flexible ... just enjoy what you do for the sake of it.
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: oh...damn..you would make it hard.
    Fael Illyar: yes, whatever you do, have fun :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: I know it's not straightforward.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods, grins. It's not.
    Gaya Ethaniel: You need lots of encouragement so share what you do as Eliza mentioned. That helps.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: nods
    Eliza Madrigal: Sharing is key... it is a subtle stretching
    Fael Illyar: having someone confirm your initial feeling about what to do is tremendous help always :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire envisions Eliza's skydiving
    Gaya Ethaniel: I've found I didn't have to tackle difficult stuffs directly. Attitudes seep into all areas once learnt.
    Gaya Ethaniel imagines Eliza ... too heheheh
    Eliza Madrigal: Gaya, do you think that IN tackling the simple stuff one can find that they've done the big stuff too??
    Gaya Ethaniel: It has been my case anyway ...
    Gaya Ethaniel: the case for me*
    Eliza Madrigal: Nice to be out on the edges with you guys :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Okay... so on a practical level... there has to be a skydiving thing in SL?
    Eliza Madrigal: hahah
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes several, but i dont have any landmarks
    Fael Illyar: yep, there is
    Eliza Madrigal: I wonder how it would be... but we're falling out of the sky all the time here anyway
    Eliza Madrigal: Thanks Gaya :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hehe
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: it's pretty great
    Gaya Ethaniel: Wear that and fall off somewhere high Eliza, chute will open as you near the ground.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: try it with regular view then with mouse view
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh great!! Thanks
    Gaya Ethaniel: yw :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: thanks Gaya!
    Eliza Madrigal: Maybe I'll go to virtual alps
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Fael Illyar: my skybox works nicely :)
    Fael Illyar: it's high enough :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Sounds fun!
    Eliza Madrigal: Freedom's just another word, for nothing left to lose...
    Eliza Madrigal: haha.... how'd that get in there? :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Fael Illyar smiles. True Freedom is having but not having :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia grin
    Fael Illyar: physically having but not mentally having.
    Eliza Madrigal: /thinks of a Piercy poem I found through a link on Adam's blog page... to have without holding


    Gaya Ethaniel: It's one of those things that sounds contradictory but isn't.
    Gaya Ethaniel: mm ... better go grab something to eat. See you later!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Gaya :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Gaya :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye, Gaya
    SophiaSharon Larnia: I'm off too, take care everyone!
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye SophiaSharon :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye SophiaSharon!
    Eliza Madrigal: (you look quite edgy today...)
    Fael Illyar: see you later Sophia :)
    Fael Illyar: Ah, just occurred to me that both me and SophiaSharon are wearing cat ears and tail :)
    Eliza Madrigal: hehe
    Eliza Madrigal: yes but only you are wearing a frog
    Fael Illyar: also quite black both.
    Eliza Madrigal: :))
    Fael Illyar: Well, yes, not many people in SL who wear frogs :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I'm going afk for a little..I wanna download something.
    Eliza Madrigal: Okay, Corvi :)
    Eliza Madrigal: In a little while I'm going to see a film... Unmistaken Child... a film about finding an incarnated lama...
    Eliza Madrigal: the environment and visuals are supposed to be striking
    Eliza Madrigal: http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/10601
    Eliza Madrigal: (For the log/ the Binoche interview)
    Eliza Madrigal: I should get going too... get scrubbed up
    Eliza Madrigal: Thank you for a lovely and substantive talk this morning
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye
    Fael Illyar smiles See you later Eliza.
    Fael Illyar: just the two of us left then :)
    Fael Illyar: Corvi?
    Fael Illyar: ah well. Have fun :) See you later.
    Fael Illyar waves.

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