2009.09.20 13:00 - Bricks and mortgages

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Maxine Walden. The comments are by Maxine Walden.

    The discussion today seemed to revolve around different perceptions of concrete elements such as bricks or more abstract notions, such as the economy or mortgages.  Different vantage points of course offered different emphases.  I have deleted much of the introductions to bring the heart of the conversation more to the fore. 

    Maxine Walden: any topics of interest today, especially around PaB or meditation issues?
    doug Sosa: in the 9 sec, is a brick more (present, real, I don't know what word) than say the state of
    doug Sosa: the economy?
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: depends on whether it has a mortgage :)
    doug Sosa: :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: it's so interesting that you said that, I was thinking along those lines today.
    Eos Amaterasu: brick and mortgage in SL, or brick and mortgage in RL?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: wb Gaya
    doug Sosa: Interesting i am sue i meant rl.
    Pila Mulligan: and relative degrees of real-ness
    Eos Amaterasu: What is your experience of the reality of a brick?
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    doug Sosa: does one have more degrees of realness than the others - in the 9 sec?
    Pila Mulligan: probably not
    doug Sosa: Eos, good question.
    Eos Amaterasu: I think immediate perception has more immediately apparent realness
    Eos Amaterasu: percpetion of touch of hard surface
    Eos Amaterasu: or weight on toe of descending brick...
    doug Sosa: I was going to agree with Pila. Eos, that then says why is the perception of the brick more real than the perception
    doug Sosa: of the state of the economy?
    doug Sosa: Esp in the 9 sec?
    Eos Amaterasu: the pain of the perceptino of the missing mortgage payment is just as real, though, is it not?
    Pila Mulligan: I agree with Eos that we have zones of perception
    Pila Mulligan: some close, some far
    Eos Amaterasu: /thinks: perceptino : new elementary particle
    doug Sosa: is not the state of the economy as close a zone as the brick?
    Pila Mulligan: for some, for sure
    Maxine Walden: maybe we can ponder these elements in the upcoming 90 sec pause
    Eos Amaterasu: perception of thought, thought of perception
    Maxine Walden: the relative realness of bricks and mortgages, in personal perceptual terms
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Adams :)
    Adams Rubble: Hello everyone :)
    Maxine Walden: Adams, we are in the midst of considering the 'reality' of various perceptions, such as a 'brick' and a 'mortgage'...
    Maxine Walden: Any experiences from the 90 sec pause anyone would like to share?
    Eos Amaterasu: ditto re "she loves me, she loves me not"
    Maxine Walden: are you bringing in doubts, hopes, fears, Eos?
    Pila Mulligan: I'm curious to hear more about what SophiaSharon mentioned that she was thinking along these lines
    Eos Amaterasu: mortgage brings on bodily-felt anxiety
    Eos Amaterasu: Yes, SophiaS
    Maxine Walden: right, Sophia, care to come in here?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: just that matter looked and felt more there, more cement like is the word I thought of at the time, in contrast to thoughts, which were softer
    Pila Mulligan: mass
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes
    SophiaSharon Larnia: but thoughts being softer
    Maxine Walden: softer....less 'concrete'
    SophiaSharon Larnia: more fluid, each thought influencing the others
    doug Sosa: Remember the question was, the difference, if any in 9 sec begween the two.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: piles of contructs
    doug Sosa: In 9 sec "concrete" should be dropped, no?
    Eos Amaterasu: ?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: it was the disparity to my expectation that i noticed
    Eliza Madrigal: maybe one sees the perceptions which make up the concrete feeling, when paused
    Maxine Walden: perhaps, doug, tho 'concrete' may describe the quality of a perception
    Eliza Madrigal: and is able to do so by comparisons
    Eos Amaterasu: solid mass is only slowly fluid
    SophiaSharon Larnia: nods
    Maxine Walden: maybe Sophia and Eos were aiming similarly about feelings and thoughts, as more fluid perhaps but very impacting likely
    doug Sosa: is the economy (that was the original "other", fluid?
    Maxine Walden: while the brick may be rather steady in its impact/impression upon our perception
    Maxine Walden: interesting question, doug. What do others think?
    Maxine Walden: does economy stir emotions which impact perception?
    Eliza Madrigal: While in the process of paying the mortgage it seems pretty solid :)
    Maxine Walden: hahaha, Eliza
    Maxine Walden: mortgage = ton of bricks?
    Eos Amaterasu: I think fluidity of the karma involved, what we can do with things, varies from brick to mortgage
    Eliza Madrigal nods and laughs
    Eos Amaterasu: we can make a wall with bricks
    doug Sosa: And the economy? Here is one idea..
    Eos Amaterasu: a bond trader can ruin millions of lives with a click o fthe mouse
    Eliza Madrigal: yes indeed
    Eliza Madrigal: a flash
    Maxine Walden: yes,eos
    Eos Amaterasu: but it's harder for us to stop the earth from rotating
    doug Sosa: we have 6billions tons of co2 released by human activity in the atmosphere. that is the euivalent of 300
    doug Sosa: no, 3 billion volvos.
    Eos Amaterasu: but Doug, think of the employment benefit in making all those Volvos!
    Maxine Walden: doug, not sure I have gathered your whole point
    doug Sosa: done and gone.
    Eliza Madrigal: re karma... one has the idea of an equality of 'thing' but why does one obstacle dissolve 'poof tada' and another unwind sllooooowwwwlllyy... number of people contributing/giving gravity/value? Can such a thing be qualified?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: the concepts that are important to you do stand out in high relief during the 9 secs
    SophiaSharon Larnia: sometimes
    Maxine Walden: thoughts? experiences?
    Eos Amaterasu: I tend to experience thoughts as "Mine" in a way that I don't for perceptions (such as the bird sounds here in both SL and RL)
    Maxine Walden: hmmm
    doug Sosa: is the "mine" of thought owning an addition to the experience of the thought?
    Eos Amaterasu: excelllent question - to be investigated in the next 90 secs
    Maxine Walden: !!
    Eos Amaterasu is enjoying this group of mad scientists

    Pila continues with the isue of personal bias/choice/perspective in terms of these varying realities and other images, stories are offered 

    Pila Mulligan: I read recently there is contention among some Italians over the proper ratio of pasta to sauce in making spaghetti -- but maybe it is a personal preference instead of an absolute -- it is probably somewhat the same with perception being whatever occupies one's interest or attention
    Eliza Madrigal grins
    doug Sosa: but in the 9 sec we should drop the filter of interests, no?
    Pila Mulligan: can you?
    Eos Amaterasu: I think the filter can become more apparent
    doug Sosa: is it the gial even?
    doug Sosa: goal, sorry.
    Eos Amaterasu: and what tends to hppen when we notice something is that it tends to get dropped
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes I agree Eos
    Eos Amaterasu: I don't think the goal is to "prevent" anything
    Maxine Walden: paying attention seems to have that capacity
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, or things ripe to drop, drop then
    Maxine Walden: to de-activate the un-noticed filters/assumptions
    Eos Amaterasu: give it space, and the un-noticed filters will rise up
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye everyone
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Ya
    Pila Mulligan: maybe if we consider the analogy of pasta as mass or density and spaghetti sauce as the ethereal bond of perception ...
    Eliza Madrigal giggles but likes the visual
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    doug Sosa: noe how, i think, our own discussion goes from the relatively "concrete" to abstractions and, may I say it (he is tired) platitudes?
    doug Sosa: noe=note
    Eos Amaterasu: those words are affecting my stomach!
    Eliza Madrigal: I think anytime we are comparing perceptions we are going to have a range of textures and visuals
    Eliza Madrigal: some abstract
    doug Sosa: A little boy visiting here last week, "I can't tell if i am eating my food or it is eating me."
    Pila Mulligan: sounds like Chaung Tze
    doug Sosa: mius whiskers.
    doug Sosa: minus
    Pila Mulligan: Tzu*
    Maxine Walden: Doug, are you disappointed with the conversation; had you been hoping we would become more concerned with our environmental degradation?
    Eos Amaterasu: ultimately we come out of our environment, and back into it
    Pila Mulligan: "Once Zhuangzi dreamt he was a butterfly, a butterfly flitting and fluttering around, happy with himself and doing as he pleased. He didn't know he was Zhuangzi. Suddenly he woke up and there he was, solid and unmistakable Zhuangzi. But he didn't know if he was Zhuangzi who had dreamt he was a butterfly, or a butterfly dreaming he was Zhuangzi."
    doug Sosa: not at all. i am intersted in why we think bricks are more real than economies.
    doug Sosa: Especially in the 9 sec.

    The question of ethics also arises

    Pila Mulligan: so it is like an ethics queation, Doug -- and a nice one too
    doug Sosa: ah, yes. dream... butterfly... me.. what is and what isn't.
    Eos Amaterasu: They are or seem real in different ways: the obvious question is what does "real" mean to you?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: ah Eos! I think that was the question that I hadn't formulated yet ;p
    Pila Mulligan: here's how I see Doug's question: shouldn't our philosophical drift into the ethereal aspects of perception also keep our feet on the ground
    Eos Amaterasu: our ethereal drift is what is screwing up the planet
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Eos Amaterasu: abstractions _do_ affect reality --- through us
    Adams Rubble: greed iwould seem to be more what is screwing up the planet
    Maxine Walden: easier to pay attention to 'bricks' than to inconvenient truths?
    Eos Amaterasu: how tangible is greed?
    Pila Mulligan: how tangilbe is desire?
    Eos Amaterasu: how tangible is touch?
    Pila Mulligan: or suffering
    Pila Mulligan: these are ethical questions -- they go hand in hand with enlightenment, it seems
    Adams Rubble quietly slips away
    Maxine Walden: bye adams
    Eos Amaterasu: it's not bricks that are screwing up the planet
    Pila Mulligan: in a practical sense, the question may be 'what's a Buddha to do?'

    And doug brings in the notion of how to proceed ethically, the suggestions of Schumaker and Soros ...

    doug Sosa: remember schumaker (sp)..? a late buddha.
    Pila Mulligan: e.f.?
    Maxine Walden: but perhaps our helplessness need not keep us turning away from the issues
    Maxine Walden: Schumaker of Small is Beautiful, doug?
    doug Sosa: yes.
    Eos Amaterasu: we need buddhas on wall street
    Maxine Walden: yes, he proposed human scale avenues for 'what to do'
    doug Sosa: Soros? Might get there.
    Eos Amaterasu: "the open society" - that's what Soros is into
    Maxine Walden: hope here, perhaps, if we keep our eyes/minds open
    Maxine Walden: what does Soros propose?
    doug Sosa: At the least, return to high reserves in the bannks and no derivatives.
    Eos Amaterasu: He has a vision heavitly influenced by Karl Popper, "the open society and its enemies"
    Pila Mulligan: ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._F._Schumacher
    Eos Amaterasu: derivates are "less real" money
    Eos Amaterasu: *derivatives
    Maxine Walden: gotta go, gang. Great discussion. Looking forward to posting it...
    Maxine Walden: see you all soon
    arabella Ella: bye Maxine
    doug Sosa: yes, time to go.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: laughs
    Pila Mulligan: bye
    Mickorod Renard: not far home
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes!
    Pila Mulligan: ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Society_Institute
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Ara, Mick
    SophiaSharon Larnia: cool thanks Pila
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: wiki is wonderful
    SophiaSharon Larnia: im on google part of everyday looking up stuff :)
    Pila Mulligan: yep, me too
    Pila Mulligan: such as leanring how to build in SL :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: and yet still dont know what comes up here lol
    Eliza Madrigal: between google and youtube we are covered
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yep, it reallllly helps

    The conversation, as often occurs, continues creatively beyond the hour's bell

    Eliza Madrigal: Don't you think that we could be 'trying' to figure out strategies for the world/engineering and ideal plans, and it all fall short without the types of abstract conversation we often have here... conversations which open the heart, etc.?
    Eliza Madrigal: Both are necessary. Maybe one looks more useful
    Pila Mulligan: yes, Eliza, I agree
    SophiaSharon Larnia: definately Eliza, I think thats the point
    Pila Mulligan: it is a question of blanace
    Eliza Madrigal: but beneath the surface...
    Eliza Madrigal: yes
    Pila Mulligan: frm an EF Schummacher web page: "He didn’t think much of traditional economists. In fact he used to tell this story. An architect, an astronomer and an economist were sitting around one day arguing about which of them had the oldest profession. The architect said his was the oldest because it was an architect who must have planned and built the Garden of Eden, humankind’s first home. No, said the astronomer, before the Garden there was the creation of heaven and earth, and there must have been an astronomer to study that heaven. Well, said the economist, yes you’re right, but God made heaven and earth out of chaos – and, he said, who do you think created that?"
    Eos Amaterasu: not separting the two
    Eliza Madrigal: I don't think we need to frame things in either/or.... I suppose is what I'm thinking... YES, Eos
    SophiaSharon Larnia: grins @ Pila, thats funny
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Eos Amaterasu: but it is a challenge to bring "this" into the hard sciences, and pseudo-sciences (like economics)
    Eliza Madrigal smiles...thanks Pila :)
    Eos Amaterasu thinks it will take a few hundred years)
    Pila Mulligan: I think the balance problem is more heavily evident in economic insitutiotns than our PaB discussions
    Eliza Madrigal: yes...and I thinks it might come from excavatig where/how it is already there
    Pila Mulligan: cleaning up, so to speak
    SophiaSharon Larnia: thats all Eos, thats not too bad
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eos Amaterasu: :-)
    Eos Amaterasu is hoping Sophia has something visual to show
    Eliza Madrigal: :))
    SophiaSharon Larnia: in a few hundred years though, we may not be able to travel outside without protective gear
    SophiaSharon Larnia: not yet Eos, Im working on a mini vilage on a mandala
    SophiaSharon Larnia: and dont have a copy, its not linked yet
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    Eos Amaterasu: wow - can we live init?
    Pila Mulligan: nice idea
    SophiaSharon Larnia: no, its tiny!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i make regular sized building and shrink them wayyyyyy down
    Eos Amaterasu: "shrink and keep proportions"
    SophiaSharon Larnia: but there are very specific parameters to building it
    SophiaSharon Larnia: and everyhitng has to be full perms
    Pila Mulligan: and mandala symmetry
    SophiaSharon Larnia: and i have to learn how to make, everyhting, i didnt know what i was asking of myself when i started
    SophiaSharon Larnia: but the universe on a mandala reminds me of the sand panting tibetian monks do
    SophiaSharon Larnia: painting*
    Eos Amaterasu is impressed, and looks forwared to seeing this
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: but you know what the monks do whenit is completed :)
    Eos Amaterasu: at the end it is wiped out
    Eos Amaterasu: dissolved
    SophiaSharon Larnia: dont be, im not that good yet
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes Pila, ive thought of that many times
    Eliza Madrigal is back... how neat
    Eos Amaterasu: it goes back into is own nature
    Pila Mulligan: so like the Zen gareden, there is always a stone out of place
    SophiaSharon Larnia: makes a note
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Sin cere
    Eliza Madrigal: I need to go... my son is not fond of homework and I'm not a good taskmaster :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: it was inspired by the pab retreat village
    Pila Mulligan: be ELiza
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Eliza
    Eos Amaterasu: Bye Eli
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye for now guys. thanks for a nice afternoon :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)) hope to talk to you soon
    Eos Amaterasu: probably time for me to go as well
    Pila Mulligan: bye Eos
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes me too take care Eos and Pila!!
    Eos Amaterasu: SophiaSharon, do yu have plot in the village
    SophiaSharon Larnia: b4n
    Pila Mulligan: bye ShopiaSharon
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Eos Amaterasu: too late.... bye Pila, RL food calls
    Eos Amaterasu: :-)
    Pila Mulligan: bye Eos
    Eos Amaterasu: feeling tangible
    Pila Mulligan: pasta
    Eos Amaterasu: rubbing the tummy of being
    Pila Mulligan: :)
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