2009.09.22 13:00 - Berts Trip and Downs Syndrome

    The Guardian for this meeting was Mickorod Renard.



    Bertram Jacobus: hey mick ! ... :-)

    Mickorod Renard: Hiya Bert!

    Bertram Jacobus: how are you ? - something new ?

    Mickorod Renard: how are you?

    Mickorod Renard: he he ..snap

    Bertram Jacobus: lol. ty - it's okay ...

    Mickorod Renard: nothing new, just work and then home

    Bertram Jacobus: okay ...

    Mickorod Renard: weather seems to be on the change

    Bertram Jacobus: oh yes ?

    Mickorod Renard: yes,,its been unusualy dry,,but a bit of rain tonite

    Bertram Jacobus: i see ...

    Mickorod Renard: whats it like with you?

    Bertram Jacobus: the weather ?

    Mickorod Renard: yes

    Bertram Jacobus: oh. very ... normal

    Bertram Jacobus: nothing special

    Mickorod Renard: these last few weeks have been better than the summer

    Mickorod Renard: so, have you been doing anything interesting?

    Bertram Jacobus: sometimes i have an imression, i don't notice weather very much ... hm

    Bertram Jacobus: yes 1 i was some days in austria, in the mountains. was VERY nice

    Mickorod Renard: ohh yes, i remember you saying you were going there

    Bertram Jacobus: yes. it was directly at the "zugspitze", the highest mountain in germany ...

    Mickorod Renard: wow

    Bertram Jacobus: and the two days there were top weather

    Mickorod Renard: fantastic

    Bertram Jacobus: hi florent :-)

    Mickorod Renard: I think he was passing through,,he he

    Bertram Jacobus: okay ... ;-)

    Mickorod Renard: so, the trip,,was it NICE for any particular reason?

    Bertram Jacobus: i went with such a mountain thing - how is it called - a lift to 2060 m high ...

    Bertram Jacobus: so beautyful

    Mickorod Renard: wow,,on a cable car?

    Bertram Jacobus: and a great sight over a big panorama ! - yes cable thing - like a bird in the sky ... :-)

    Mickorod Renard: yes..fantastic

    Bertram Jacobus: and i met very nice people there, too

    Mickorod Renard: yes,,were they people you knew before?

    Bertram Jacobus: i brought one friend back to cologne. his relation with a woman is finished. i did not know the woman before and her daughter. was all very friendly

    doug Sosa: appologies for lateness.

    Bertram Jacobus: hello doug ! ;-)

    Mickorod Renard: ok,,was he badly upset by it all,,or coped well?

    Mickorod Renard: hiya Doug

    doug Sosa: keep goin on whre you were.

    Bertram Jacobus: it was ... okay i think. sure : not the biggest joy, but okay ...

    Mickorod Renard: we were discussing bERTS TRIP TO THE MOUNTAINS IN AUSTRIA

    Mickorod Renard: OOPS sorry 4 shhouting

    doug Sosa: envy. i've doen them in slovenia.

    Mickorod Renard: what are they like there Doug?

    doug Sosa: just like austria :)

    Mickorod Renard: Hiya Ara

    arabella Ella: Hiya!

    Mickorod Renard: he he

    doug Sosa: :)

    Bertram Jacobus: hi ara :-)

    Mickorod Renard: Do you get to travel to europe often Doug?

    doug Sosa: i used to go about twice a year. went last year to umbria. no current plan.

    Mickorod Renard: nice

    Mickorod Renard: my travels sort of became more domesticated when I had my son

    doug Sosa: but i live in te coastal range north of san francisco, quite wild, on the russian river.

    Mickorod Renard: I cant say I know that area too well Doug

    doug Sosa: looks like austria :)


    arabella Ella: i've been to the redwoods area north of SF myself

    Mickorod Renard: wow,,are you at risk from the fires that seem to breaK OUT EACH YEAR?

    arabella Ella whispers ... really beautiful

    arabella Ella: (the redwood area i mean ... not the fires)

    Mickorod Renard: I keep finding redwoods here in the uk..US imports

    arabella Ella: :)

    doug Sosa: well, we were tlaking about the fires this morning. we are at the point where the valley opens to the flood plain so the trees are closest about 100-150 yards, and not many at that distance. beyond, 33 meters, dense. so it think we are ok.

    doug Sosa: 33=300

    Mickorod Renard: yes,,thank goodness..I suppose it could be a worry

    doug Sosa: our discussion this morning was - in case of fire, is the river safe, or do we boil?

    Mickorod Renard: he he

    doug Sosa: that's when to do the 9 sec :)

    Mickorod Renard: grin

    Mickorod Renard: I came accros some wellingtonia tree's the other day

    Mickorod Renard: looked like redwoods

    Mickorod Renard: I think they must have been from new zealand

    Bertram Jacobus: i met in the two days in austria too agirl, the daughter of the family where i was, with the down's syndrome and that was a very nice experience

    Bertram Jacobus: i like these people already since a long time very much because they always look so happy

    Mickorod Renard: wow,,I think it must have been a rewarding experience Bert

    doug Sosa: brb

    Bertram Jacobus: and it was my first time with such a person close and known

    arabella Ella: oh yes you have just been to Austria Bert haven't you?

    arabella Ella: was it a good trip?

    arabella Ella: were you in Vienna or elsewhere?

    Bertram Jacobus: yes ara - we talked already a bit about that - was great :-)

    arabella Ella: fantastic!

    Mickorod Renard: the mountains Ara

    arabella Ella: ah lovely

    arabella Ella: in Corinthia?

    doug Sosa: b

    Bertram Jacobus: no. direct at the "zugspitze" - germans highest mountain - about - a bit less as 3000 m i guess

    Bertram Jacobus: and the other half is autriche ;-)

    arabella Ella: yes i know it although have not been to german mountains

    arabella Ella: sounds beautiful

    arabella Ella: although too cold for me i guess

    Bertram Jacobus: was phantastic, also because i had very nice weather. was very lucky

    Mickorod Renard: did you experience anything special that you can share with the downs syndrome girl?

    Bertram Jacobus: no no not cold at all

    Bertram Jacobus: i went with a t shirt walking

    Mickorod Renard: nice

    arabella Ella: how lovely

    Bertram Jacobus: absolutely yes mick. she was so trustingly and confident and i could accept that very good

    Bertram Jacobus: so we had two very close days

    Bertram Jacobus: may be when you have that all day may be more difficult

    Bertram Jacobus: but so it was great

    arabella Ella: sounds lovely it is so important for us to realise that we can get on with everyone regardless

    arabella Ella: unfortunately too many ppl have prejudices

    arabella Ella: unfounded prejudices

    doug Sosa: is that one? seriously.

    arabella Ella: for some people yes

    Bertram Jacobus: but when you look in the faces of these people you can see how happy they are

    Bertram Jacobus: again and again

    arabella Ella nods

    Bertram Jacobus: their basic mood seems to be very happy

    Mickorod Renard: thats good

    doug Sosa: i would suggest that perhaps all prejudices are grounded, jut not well enough. but the intent is to deal with far and expecially economic anxiety.

    Bertram Jacobus: that's fantastic - a really nice specialty

    arabella Ella: well doug if you include religious superstition as a grounding for prejudice ... then that's something else

    Mickorod Renard: I guess you mean the amount of extra care needed by carers/parents Doug?

    doug Sosa: i was responding to the "prejudices" idea.

    Mickorod Renard: I am not quite sure what the foundation of the predjudice must be,,,now I think about it


    doug Sosa: take for example, whites fear of black in the inner city, and, what comes only from exxperience, knowing the even deeper fear blacks have of whites in the inner city. bith are based on real expeience unfortuanatly overgeneralized but not "stupid"

    arabella Ella: i guess it is a religious superstition related to either 'punishment' or 'perceived punishment' ... a type of karma

    doug Sosa: sorry :(

    doug Sosa: bith-both

    Mickorod Renard: ;)

    arabella Ella: isn't it really some sort of 'fear' of 'difference' ... after all in some people's living memory people who were 'different' were often locked up and lived in 'oblivion' ... something we tend to condemn today

    Mickorod Renard: I have to admit to making avoiding action whenconfronted with someone with downs

    doug Sosa: i need to slowly calmly go to a five minute lunch... bye.

    Mickorod Renard: bye Doug

    arabella Ella: bye doug enjoy your lunch :)

    Bertram Jacobus: have a nice time doug

    Bertram Jacobus: i have also problems with some deseases, but the down's sydrome i nearly like (!) ...

    Mickorod Renard: yes, I dont have an issue with people with these sorts of problems,,its just , like many I guess, life is so rushed I dont want complications

    arabella Ella: yes Bert I too have no problem with downs

    arabella Ella: i guess the attitude in the Uk may be a bit different ... some people in the Uk consider abortion, unfortunately, when they learn that their feutus has downs

    Bertram Jacobus: it´s the point that i see so much joy in life of these people. that attracts me -

    arabella Ella: yes

    Mickorod Renard: yes,,thats fantastic Bert

    Bertram Jacobus: as i said before : in a every day mode that may be more difficult, but as a visitor ... it was a great experience : she came so often and took my hand, sat beside me, all so friendly and - happy - can't say it in a other way ...

    Mickorod Renard: thats true Ara,,the uk is in some respects a huge mechanical monster,,and it presses on relentlessly..sometimes in an uncaring way

    Bertram Jacobus: thats not only in the uk with the abortions ...

    Mickorod Renard: we the inhabitants try hard to slow it down but its not always posible

    Mickorod Renard: I am very anti abortion,,but I suppose if confronted with a dilemna I may become ruthless

    arabella Ella: yes - here it is illegal

    Bertram Jacobus: i don't experience you as "ruthless" at all mick (!)

    Bertram Jacobus: never

    arabella Ella: neither do i

    Mickorod Renard: thankyou, but I can remember looking into adopting once

    Bertram Jacobus: i think you could express that in a more smoother way too ... ;-)

    Mickorod Renard: and when it was put to me that I could adopt a child with dificulties I didnt follow it up

    Bertram Jacobus: i repeat : with some difficulties i can´t cope too for sake -

    Mickorod Renard: ;)

    arabella Ella: as Bert said Mick ... it is not an easy task if it is 24/7

    Mickorod Renard: exactly

    Bertram Jacobus: but i try to learn ... so many things "yet" ...

    arabella Ella: we all do Bert and it is therefore important to maintain our curiousity

    Mickorod Renard: but its nice to be open about these things,,it is better than storing away tabboo subjects

    Bertram Jacobus: and it's a question of power too i think. what one can do and what not yet -

    arabella Ella: yes

    Mickorod Renard: I agree

    Bertram Jacobus: yes mick :-) i agree very much :-)

    arabella Ella: although one must try to remain open to opportunities and recognise them when they occur ... we dont always do so

    Mickorod Renard: I always thought I may reconsider adopting or fostering when my own son is independant

    Mickorod Renard: but I recon he will always be around..he he

    arabella Ella: :)

    Bertram Jacobus: ;-)

    arabella Ella: do you know if Gilles' workshop is today at Kira or tomorrow?

    Bertram Jacobus: no idea sry

    arabella Ella: ok

    arabella Ella: i guess it is tomorrow wednesday ... first meeting after summer break


    Bertram Jacobus: and i think ... i'll leave today a bit earlier ... - now ! ;-)

    Mickorod Renard: Is it not dreams tonight?

    Bertram Jacobus: ty for the talk and have a nice time please

    Mickorod Renard: bye Bert,,nice chatting

    arabella Ella: guten nacht Bert

    arabella Ella: schlaf gut

    arabella Ella: :)

    Bertram Jacobus: dank euch ! :-)

    Mickorod Renard: he he

    Bertram Jacobus: :o))

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