2009.09.28 19:00 - death, dreams and awareness

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Fox Monacular. The comments are by Fox Monacular.

    doug Sosa: hi eos.
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi doug, paradise
    Paradise Tennant: hiya doug .. eos .. arch :)
    doug Sosa: paradise!
    Paradise Tennant: :)
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi Arch
    Eos Amaterasu: Does anyone have a pregnant topic?
    Paradise Tennant: :))
    Archmage Atlantis: Death
    Paradise Tennant: hmm was thinking about the benefits of silence ..thought it would be interesting to talk about it :) lol
    doug Sosa: death is not a topic. :)
    Paradise Tennant: death is good too
    Archmage Atlantis: Is that pregnant enough
    Eos Amaterasu: death is life's best idea
    Paradise Tennant: yes
    doug Sosa: no, life is death's best idea.
    Paradise Tennant: well we have a beginning two sides :)
    doug Sosa: Life's best idea is love.
    Paradise Tennant: I will take the middle they are both good ideas ;)
    Archmage Atlantis: Love ends when survival is required
    Eos Amaterasu: sometimes survival ends when love is required
    doug Sosa: paradise, why don't you show up in a list residents? can't ask you to be a friend :(
    Archmage Atlantis: Nice try Eos
    Eos Amaterasu: :-)
    Eos Amaterasu: little deaths happen all the time, every moment letting go into another
    Eos Amaterasu: I think that's part of the panic of the 90 secs
    Archmage Atlantis: I so not disagree with that EOS
    doug Sosa: today i haad one of those moments, the kind that can suck us under. I found out
    Archmage Atlantis: The big death does come
    doug Sosa: I've got some leakage in the back of my left retina. but 9 sec
    doug Sosa: realy helped. "What the hell i thought, after abit, it ok, whatever.."
    Eos Amaterasu: hmm
    Eos Amaterasu: even that's in the big 90 secs - sobering nonetheless
    Paradise Tennant: no worries just added you
    doug Sosa: :)
    Archmage Atlantis: I face it
    doug Sosa: see, things look up when least expected :)
    Archmage Atlantis: I will not let it own me
    Eos Amaterasu: let it be itself and unwind itself as well as wind itself up
    Archmage Atlantis: Nice try again Eos
    Eos Amaterasu: I'm Avis
    Paradise Tennant: hmm reading a very good book called what happens when you die by dr parnia ..the chat that is conducting nde research big study
    Archmage Atlantis: What happens is one ends
    Archmage Atlantis: Even if there is reincarnation
    Archmage Atlantis: this life ends
    Archmage Atlantis: this body ends
    Eos Amaterasu: indeed
    Paradise Tennant: *chap
    Paradise Tennant: most common outcome of nde is significant personality and behaviour changes
    doug Sosa: Like falling glass over edge of table, in very slow motion..
    Paradise Tennant: people become less materialistic more family oriented more alturistic getting near death sounds ok
    Archmage Atlantis: nde is near death experience?
    Paradise Tennant: yes
    Archmage Atlantis: I have had 4 of those
    Paradise Tennant: ;)
    Eos Amaterasu: it's got to be real enough to scare you
    doug Sosa: lets try nle... near life experience, first.
    Paradise Tennant: you kind of have to leave your body :)
    Archmage Atlantis: I did
    Eos Amaterasu: I like that idea, Doug :-)
    Paradise Tennant: what happened arch :)
    Archmage Atlantis: Try it, I doubt you will like it
    Eos Amaterasu: I will give that one my best nice try :-)
    Archmage Atlantis: car accidents
    doug Sosa: the greeks said death mut not be so terrific, or te gods would try it.
    Archmage Atlantis: Body damage
    Eos Amaterasu: hmm
    Eos Amaterasu: Argh! That's real enough!
    Archmage Atlantis: Intensive care for 45 days
    Archmage Atlantis: Lungs popped out, ribs were destroyed
    Archmage Atlantis: Ankles were shattered
    Archmage Atlantis: One nurse said "you will not die on my watch"
    Archmage Atlantis: One surgeon went in twice
    Archmage Atlantis: Into my chest
    Archmage Atlantis: It was 2000
    doug Sosa: I had a pateint one, a brilliant surgeon. a girl cam in from a car acidnet toally broken. they said she woul be deas in a few hours. he started to operate, worked at it for more than 24 hours. A year later they married.
    Archmage Atlantis: My partner had left for Arizona for his 3rd kidney transplant
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi guys :)
    Paradise Tennant: :) doug ..nice story :)
    Archmage Atlantis: Do I qualify to speak of these issues now?
    Paradise Tennant: hiya eliza
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi Elly
    Paradise Tennant: during this time you had an out of boy experience arch ?
    doug Sosa: of course, but you didn't have to go through all that to qualify.
    Paradise Tennant: body
    Eliza Madrigal: Just peeking in for a few minutes :)
    doug Sosa: there is stuf in lao tzu i don't really undersand "if you live as though life doesn't matter you can;t be killed."
    Archmage Atlantis: Lao Tse is the first to see
    Paradise Tennant: definition of nde .. usually entails leaving your body .. feeling of peace .. really pleasant feelings of being loved.. no desire usually to go back in the body :)
    Archmage Atlantis: This RL matters
    Fox Monacular: hi everyone, sorry I'm late
    Paradise Tennant: hiya fox
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Fox :)
    Archmage Atlantis: It is a test
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi Fox
    Eliza Madrigal: I was sorry not to make your first session last week, Fox! :)
    Fox Monacular: sorry about that... late evening RL sruff...
    Fox Monacular: that's ok :) Eliza
    Eliza Madrigal nods... it happens :)
    Paradise Tennant: no worries :)
    Eos Amaterasu: paying attention to ordinary little gaps, endings, transitions
    Eos Amaterasu: I think this how 9 secs, 90 secs, relates to death, loss of identity, letting go (maybe not willingly)
    Archmage Atlantis: I give you a poem
    Eos Amaterasu: just finding that in the little things
    Archmage Atlantis: White Frogs Song Outside my windows the white frogs sing Some would say they chirp like birds I live by the biggest swamp Where pythons and alligators die in battle I wait to turn on this dayтАЩs news As I know it will be old Humankind, are we worthy The white frogs ask
    Eos Amaterasu: back to Doug's "near life experience" - are we worthy?
    Fox Monacular: 'near life
    Fox Monacular: sounds great
    Fox Monacular: what does it mean?
    Eos Amaterasu: I don't know - Doug?
    doug Sosa: That we think we are awake but really rather asleep. 9 sec often reveals that.
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Fox Monacular: asleep? in what sense?
    Eliza Madrigal: I'd agree with that... when we notice we are alseep, we wake
    Eos Amaterasu: I'm also reminded of something Eliza said yesterday, that you can let go into "up", not just let go into "drop"
    Eos Amaterasu: something like that :-)
    doug Sosa: this morning, forgive the language, i was standing pissing 9not giving anything away) and i caught myself, am i really aware/ decided to do the 9sec in themiddle.
    Fox Monacular: sometimes when we notice we're asleep we have a lucid dream :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal smiles@Fox
    Fox Monacular: :)
    doug Sosa: Amazing, consciouness spred to thriple, quaddruple, the intensity..
    Paradise Tennant: blinks
    Eliza Madrigal: So when we notice we are asleep when seemingly awake, we have a more lucid life
    Eos Amaterasu: the whole world perks up
    doug Sosa: i saw much more of the room, the raptors in the sky, the reflections off the windows of nearby house..
    Fox Monacular: that's one of the goals of stuff like dream ypga
    Fox Monacular: yoga
    Fox Monacular: cool, doug
    Eliza Madrigal: MM
    Paradise Tennant: well going to excuse my self .. sorry busy week .. interesting as always thank you all :))
    Eos Amaterasu: kept going through the 90 secs, but also kept in the space of my going
    Archmage Atlantis: The tatoo I wear is Kanje
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Paradise :)
    Fox Monacular: bye Paradise
    Archmage Atlantis: For Heaven
    Paradise Tennant: nite nite all :)) big wave
    Archmage Atlantis: It is like the oldest writing
    doug Sosa: :)
    Eos Amaterasu: night
    Archmage Atlantis: Pictures of words
    Eliza Madrigal: keeping the space of going, hmm
    Eos Amaterasu: tien, or tian, heaven
    doug Sosa: inchnese, japanese too?
    Eliza Madrigal: When a child, I pictured a place "heaven" but now see constant unfolding...giving up into maybe
    Archmage Atlantis: Would have to ask, gien to me by another who comes here
    Eos Amaterasu: Chinese; Japanese characters are same, spoken diff
    Archmage Atlantis: He speaks Japanese
    Eos Amaterasu: sometimes in wildflower, sometimes in sand
    doug Sosa: character origin: big man balancing horizon on head :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Fox, do you know much about dream yoga? I know one breathing technique only
    Fox Monacular: I have read a couple of books...
    Eos Amaterasu: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/хдй
    Fox Monacular: actually, I can probably find a link to one in pdf online
    Eliza Madrigal: There was one I read most of in the bookstore one day, but it seemed to complicated at the time
    Eos Amaterasu: There are many techniques, most of them related to finding some kind of reminder, and then an "am I dreaming" test
    Eos Amaterasu: remember to question whether you're dreaming
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Archmage Atlantis: I give another writing as it seems time
    Eos Amaterasu: text in dreams does not stay still
    Archmage Atlantis: Statement Of Purpose Of тАУ The New Library of Alexandria in SL The ancient Library of Alexandria (~300 BC - early AD) was charged with collecting all written human knowledge. Its destruction was a severe loss to the perpetuation of that knowledge, and to the advancement of human understanding. Now, humanityтАЩs store of wisdom and knowledge exists in numerous forms--books, art, music, and especially electronic media. This тАЬwealthтАЭ could easily disappear, again causing a serious loss to civilization, unless measures are taken to preserve the availability of these materials in accessible forms for all time to come. While no longer accomplishable under one roof, current and future technology must be used to insure its continuous existence. The purpose of this тАЬAlexandria NovusтАЭ project, The New Library of Alexandria, is to provide a focal point and gathering place where participants can come together to develop and carry out plans that will accomplish the goal of continuous preservation, p
    Eos Amaterasu: you can read analog clocks, but not digital
    Fox Monacular: http://www.awakening-intuition.com/D...u_Rinpoche.pdf
    Archmage Atlantis: ropagation, and growth of the recorded record of the fruits of human intellect.
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, great, thanks
    Fox Monacular: cool
    Fox Monacular: you are right, Eos, text in dreamn never stays still
    Eliza Madrigal: When in dreaming, i do pretty well seeing that I'm dreaming... but Hm... think it would be nice more often :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I've read pab logs in sleep before hahah
    Eos Amaterasu: You can also go from waking to dreaming, and stay awake
    Archmage Atlantis: Have any of you taken the dream walk?
    Fox Monacular: in fact I don't know anyone who claims to have read something in their dream (other than short signs or something)
    Fox Monacular: dream walk?
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, Eos that I would call a vision
    Eos Amaterasu: that's probably what visions are!
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Fox Monacular: Eos, that's what dream yogas are supposed to accomplish
    Eliza Madrigal: those edges and transitions
    Eos Amaterasu: you go into the dreamtime, to the songs that sing the world
    Eliza Madrigal smiles widely
    Fox Monacular: staying aware and awake across states
    Archmage Atlantis: Yes Eos
    Archmage Atlantis: I have been taken there, kicking and fighting
    Eos Amaterasu: I've been noticing more how much, probably we all, dream, dream-think, while waking
    Fox Monacular: daydreaming
    Archmage Atlantis: Daydreaming is a mild form
    Eos Amaterasu: there's also a quality of waking from dreaming, or similar to that, in PaB, APA
    Eliza Madrigal: when we get into a playful, open, sharing place... sometimes that is like collective dreaming...
    Eos Amaterasu: sharing imagery
    Fox Monacular: for Freud for example, phantasies, daydreams were made of the same stuff as dreams
    Eos Amaterasu: we have a kind of language of ourselves
    Archmage Atlantis: To walk in the dream time, that is to experience new reality
    Eos Amaterasu: that plays out at more awake and less awake levels
    Fox Monacular: you mean like australian dreamtime?
    Eliza Madrigal thinks of different levels of air
    Archmage Atlantis: They are near the first humankind.....DNA studies seem to say that
    Eos Amaterasu: these are all ways to access where reality gets soft, pliable, plays with you, you as it, etc....
    Archmage Atlantis: Humans before us used tools, had thumbs
    Archmage Atlantis: We are capable of dreaming the future
    Fox Monacular: yes, I agree
    Archmage Atlantis: And singing the past
    Fox Monacular: definitely
    Eliza Madrigal: there is something about that first moment falling into sleep which seems to be a letting go which allows a kind of insight to emerge
    Fox Monacular: hypnagogic imager
    Fox Monacular: images
    Eliza Madrigal: yes...that first drop
    Fox Monacular: if you resist falling deeper asleep and rouse yourself to notice them they can be quite amazing
    Eliza Madrigal: like your consciousness was determined to stay too busy to let you see
    Fox Monacular: it's one of the funnest things we do in the lab - sleep onset awakenings
    Eliza Madrigal would prob be a good test case
    Eliza Madrigal: heh
    Fox Monacular: you wait for a particular EEG signature, and wake them up
    Eos Amaterasu: you study that, FOx?
    Fox Monacular: yes:)
    Eos Amaterasu: Have you experimented with communication from lucid dreaming?
    Fox Monacular: not really, but we've asked a lucid dreamer to signal to us when in a dream moving his eyes up and down
    Fox Monacular: and recorded it, it was quite exciting... lucid communication is something I would like to do one day
    Eos Amaterasu: Exercise for tonight: wake up in your dream and appreciate the presence of appearance
    Fox Monacular: easy to say... :)
    Eos Amaterasu: :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: : )
    Eos Amaterasu: You might see people in your dreams holding APA signs
    Fox Monacular: APA?
    Eos Amaterasu: whch you find hard to read, which means you're dreaming!
    Eliza Madrigal giggles
    Fox Monacular: haha, yes
    Eos Amaterasu: Appreciate the Presence of Appearance
    Fox Monacular: :)
    Eos Amaterasu: Let's give it a try!
    Eliza Madrigal: I don't know if text moves, but I had a pretty clear dream of sending the wrong information through IMs once
    Eos Amaterasu: :-)
    Fox Monacular: I was trying to make a phone call last night in my dream... and couldn't get the numbers right...
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Fox Monacular: it was very frustrating... I was supposed to save the world from the curse of some primeval evil
    Archmage Atlantis: I leave you with wishes for a new year, and a new covenant Our Creator, our Sustainer, we have no other but you Our Creator, our Sustainer, help us for your own sake Our Creator, our Sustainer, grant us a blessed New Year Our Creator, our Sustainer, annul all miscreant decrees against us Our Creator, our Sustainer, annul the plots of our enemies Our Creator, our Sustainer, rid us of tyrants Our Creator, our Sustainer, rid us of pestilence, sword, famine, captivity,and destruction Our Creator, our Sustainer, forgive us and parden our sins.
    Fox Monacular: I think I watch too much true blood
    Eliza Madrigal smiles.... yes tough to think of phone numbers when you must save the world
    Eliza Madrigal: I had rather clear and interesting dreams the night that we played tai chi here with Pila, too
    Fox Monacular: I knew that I knew the number, but I couldn't get the sequence right... like reading in the drea,
    Eos Amaterasu: maybe find a rotary phone next time
    Eliza Madrigal: haha
    Eliza Madrigal: will have to go back in time
    Eos Amaterasu: whoa!
    Fox Monacular: it was a rotary phone!!
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello
    Eos Amaterasu: :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: !! well that solves that
    Eliza Madrigal: hahah
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Steven!
    Fox Monacular: hey Stevenaia
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eos Amaterasu: ok, you need to call the operator!
    stevenaia Michinaga: thought I;d drop in for a moment
    Fox Monacular: no, Eliza, it didn't solve it...
    Fox Monacular: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eos Amaterasu: literaly
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: So the world went unsaved?
    Fox Monacular: the evil guy who looked like Morgan Freeman put everyone under his spell
    Eliza Madrigal giggles
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, Morgan would never do that
    Eos Amaterasu: yuck, I hate it when that happens!
    Eliza Madrigal: heheh
    Fox Monacular: and their eyes went black, which meant that they are revercing to the state of total ID
    Fox Monacular: yes, the evil guy looked like a nice guy
    Eliza Madrigal: Morgan is always playing God
    Fox Monacular: so everyone liked him, and I was the only one who knew the truth
    stevenaia Michinaga: is this a movie you are discussing?
    Eos Amaterasu: Fox's movie
    Fox Monacular: no, it's a dream I had last night:)
    Eliza Madrigal: Ohhh, yes I would have fallen for his scheme
    Eos Amaterasu: 3D, all sensations - his dream
    Fox Monacular: immersive cinema of the future
    Eliza Madrigal: :) PaB Playhouse
    Eos Amaterasu: time for me to dream - ciao all!
    Eliza Madrigal: Night Eos :)
    Fox Monacular: so Morgan was getting close to hypnotizig my baby, and then she cried and woke me up
    Fox Monacular: sweet dreams Eos
    Eos Amaterasu: Ah...
    Fox Monacular: spooky
    Eos Amaterasu: Thanks Fox, Eliz, Steve...
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, your baby can resist Morgan's powers
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Fox Monacular: no, what's spooky is the continuity between dream and reality
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, I definitely agree
    Fox Monacular: I mean, we know that RL stimuli get incorporated but still
    stevenaia Michinaga: isn;t it supposed to be that way?
    Eliza Madrigal: one flowing into the other you mean, Steven?
    Fox Monacular: yes, of course
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, and related
    Fox Monacular: but sometimes the synchronicity is spooky - like dreaming of someone only to wake up to them calling you on the phone
    Fox Monacular: or precognitive dreams...
    Eliza Madrigal: yes indeed
    stevenaia Michinaga: sometimes I thing the dream gets created after you answer the phone and posted to your past
    Fox Monacular: but sometimes not...
    Fox Monacular: :)
    Eliza Madrigal nods... that's true too... and often I wake up thinking a dream was very ordinary, and then write pages unpacking it
    Eliza Madrigal: big things in small packages :)
    Fox Monacular: I'm supposed to study dreams scientifically and have a natural sciences approach, but I have had some pretty crazy experiences that I can't deny :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: I used to do a dream journal when I moved once, pages and pages of details
    Fox Monacular: yes, that's a very rich practice, you can uncover a lot of stuff
    Eliza Madrigal: This has been a major focus for me this year in particular, though I've always paid attention
    stevenaia Michinaga: amazing how you can still remember them years later if you write quick enough
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Fox Monacular: for me the dream diary was too much... I would rememver dreams better and better and then I ended up spending at least an hour every morning just writing them down
    Fox Monacular: and I would think about them all day
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Fox Monacular: and then go to work... in the dream lab... and talk about dreams!
    Eliza Madrigal: yes I try to take a little note, but sometimes there is something that just insists on being seen!
    Eliza Madrigal: hehe
    Fox Monacular: so I just stopped. now I only write down really interesting stuff
    stevenaia Michinaga: I would wake myslef up in the middle of the night and write, could beatly read it int he morning :)
    Fox Monacular: :) I used to have a pen with a little light on the tip
    Fox Monacular: so you can write in the dark
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, great idea :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: nice, I did this before that technology existed
    Fox Monacular: it used to drive my ex crazy
    Eliza Madrigal: :))
    Eliza Madrigal: My whole interview for the Chronicles with Adams, turned out to be dreams...wasn't intended that way
    Fox Monacular: cool, I should read it!
    Eliza Madrigal: I'd love for you too...would be interesting to hear your thoughts
    Eliza Madrigal: but dreaming kind of brought me to PaB... or a gecko in a dream anyway :)
    Eliza Madrigal: We live in a wonderous world :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: love when Maxine speaks of her dream work
    Fox Monacular: synchronicity brought me to PaB
    Eliza Madrigal smiles
    Fox Monacular: I can never manage to go to the dream seminar! every tuesday something else happens!
    Eliza Madrigal: And yes, I love that Maxine speaks of the topography of our consciousness/unconscious.... MM
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, the timing is bad for me too
    Fox Monacular: it's during the day when I'm at home with baby... and it's 5 pm for me... so after her nap :(
    Eliza Madrigal: Sundays we get into those discussions too sometimes
    Fox Monacular: what's on Sundays?
    Eliza Madrigal: Maxine's PaB session
    Eliza Madrigal: For a few weeks we talked about dreams and time...that was an interesting thing to look at
    stevenaia Michinaga: thank you
    Fox Monacular: dreams change with time... and then there's time perception in dreams
    Eliza Madrigal: The discussions took turns here and there, but yes the part I was most keyed into
    Eliza Madrigal: was the time perception
    Eliza Madrigal: how instantaneous change can be, etc...overlapping times
    Eliza Madrigal: rotary phones, for instance, seems a time dream to me :)
    Fox Monacular: right... sometimes it seems like a whole life happened in one REM cycle
    Eliza Madrigal: yes!
    Eliza Madrigal: Okay... getting sleepy
    Fox Monacular: it's interesting... research data shows pretty convincingly that if you wake someone up after, say 5 min of REM
    Fox Monacular: they would say that they've been dreaming about 5 mins
    Eliza Madrigal: really?
    Fox Monacular: but with all the context of 'dream' memory
    Eliza Madrigal: I thought the accepted idea was that the person experiences it as much longer
    Fox Monacular: not necessarily
    stevenaia Michinaga: some dreams seem to last for hours
    Eliza Madrigal: neat!
    Fox Monacular: it's the context that changes
    Fox Monacular: some REM cycles last for over an hour too
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, that goes against what I thought also
    Eliza Madrigal is ready to pack up and be Fox's assistant
    Eliza Madrigal: hehehe
    Fox Monacular: as soon as I write my thesis, i'll hire you:)
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    Eliza Madrigal grins
    Fox Monacular: oh, right, and as soon as I do a phd
    Eliza Madrigal: Well if I'm going to make such big life changes, I'd better get some sleep
    Fox Monacular: sleep on it
    Eliza Madrigal: yes
    Eliza Madrigal: haha
    Eliza Madrigal: Night to you both :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Thanks for a lovely evening
    Fox Monacular: big decisions are better after dreaming
    Fox Monacular: good night Eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Sweet dreams
    Fox Monacular: I'm afraid I have to go too
    Fox Monacular: baby's still not in bed :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: bye fox
    Fox Monacular: night Steve
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