2009.09.29 19:00 - 90 sec oceanic puddles

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Eos Amaterasu. The comments are by Eos Amaterasu.

    Eos Amaterasu: Hi Widget, Aidan
    Widget Whiteberry: Hello


    Widget Whiteberry: Eos, we are in skype, is it appropriate?
    Eos Amaterasu: I've just "claimed" the session, so will get an email with the URL of the log of the session
    Eos Amaterasu: Well, discussions here are in local chat.
    Widget Whiteberry: Hello Doug, Paul
    Paul Namiboo: Hi all :)
    doug Sosa: hi.
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi Doug and Paul
    Aidan Spiritor: hello all
    doug Sosa: new people for me.
    Eos Amaterasu: Aidan is here for the first time; Widget's been once before
    doug Sosa: welcome. where where you think you are is where you are.
    Eos Amaterasu: :-)
    Eos Amaterasu: Here comes Paradise :-)
    Widget Whiteberry: *smiles*
    Paradise Tennant: hello everyone :)
    doug Sosa: paradise. i can't separate out the meaning of the word from your presence :(
    Paradise Tennant: lol
    Paradise Tennant: well it was an kind of attempt on a buddhist play on words :)
    doug Sosa: ??
    Paul Namiboo: I'm lost :)
    Paradise Tennant: that we are in paradise .. just not aware of it
    Eos Amaterasu: holding on to Paradise?
    Paradise Tennant: that our awareness is the limitation ...not the external reality
    Paul Namiboo: This spot s certainly more like Paradise than my office!
    Paradise Tennant: yes it is a nice build.. .storm is a gifted builder :)
    Aidan Spiritor: What are you drinking Paul?
    doug Sosa: uh oh, the puns are swamping me.
    Paul Namiboo: Virtual Chateau Mouton '45, a gift from Pila Mulligan
    Paradise Tennant: wow nice
    Aidan Spiritor: Nice choice!
    Eos Amaterasu: a limitless bottle, it seems :-)
    Paul Namiboo: It never runs dry, and I never get a hangover!
    doug Sosa: unfortunately bandwidth does not allow passing it around.
    doug Sosa: but keep paul sober :)
    Paul Namiboo: A project many have tried, but few succeeded
    Widget Whiteberry keeps breathing
    Aidan Spiritor: So are we expecting others?
    Paradise Tennant: ;)

    Paradise Tennant: did anyone have a topic ?
    doug Sosa: always but sometimes they just never...
    Eos Amaterasu: How about what the 9 secs, 90 secs is, maybe suggestion for upcoming one
    doug Sosa: I must go to dinner, hope to be back before its over. bye.
    Eos Amaterasu: ciao
    Paradise Tennant: nite nite doug bon appetit
    Eos Amaterasu: [19:06] Paradise Tennant: that our awareness is the limitation ...not the external reality
    Eos Amaterasu: Can you say more, Paradise?
    Paradise Tennant: well ...
    Eos Amaterasu: or how would you find that in the 9 secs?
    Paradise Tennant: our awareness is caged by sensory systems that make constructs out of the reality around us ..which I suspect is very different than we really perceive it
    Paradise Tennant: sometime by quieting the mind you get a little glimpse of .. the bigger picture
    Eos Amaterasu: So maybe in the next 90 secs we could take that as an experiment: watch the caging by sensory systems :-)
    Paradise Tennant: that even a glimpse can calm you to the point that you really see the beauty
    Paul Namiboo: We know "reality" is very different -- after all were bathed in radio waves we can't recieve, ultraviolet light, etc. etc.
    Paradise Tennant: yep


    Paul Namiboo: Speaking of waves, I've got to go now or it will make some with my lover. Bye!
    Paradise Tennant: :) nite paul
    Eos Amaterasu: So this is the question: what happened in these 90 secs?
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi Stevenaia
    stevenaia Michinaga: it rained stevie
    Paradise Tennant: hey steve
    Paradise Tennant: ;)
    Aidan Spiritor: Hello Stevenaia--nice to meet you.
    Paradise Tennant: hmm what did you notice eos :)
    Eos Amaterasu: How would you describe the 90 secs pause / silence / suspension ?
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Aidan
    Paradise Tennant: i always find when I focus on my senses .. i am amazed by how engaging they are ..how great a sip of wine tastes or the smell of coffee
    Aidan Spiritor: It could be a moment of Rigpa
    Paradise Tennant: yes
    Eos Amaterasu: not separate from the coffee smell
    stevenaia Michinaga: Rigpa?
    Aidan Spiritor: Hmm, a big subject. I probably should not have opened this question.
    Paradise Tennant: but a great topic
    Eos Amaterasu: Basically, a dzogchen term for basic awareness
    Eos Amaterasu: open clarity/knowingness
    stevenaia Michinaga: thank you Eos
    Eos Amaterasu: the field of Being
    Aidan Spiritor: Yes, but could be a bit jargony for some.
    Eos Amaterasu: True. We need better poetry.
    Paradise Tennant: mudra teachings.  Rigpa is a Tibetan word, which in general means intelligence or awareness. In Dzogchen, however, the highest teachings in the Buddhist tradition of Tibet, rigpa has a deeper connotation, the innermost nature of the mind. The whole of the teaching of Buddha is directed towards realizing this, our ultimate nature, the state of omniscience or enlightenment â a truth so universal, so primordial that it goes beyond all limits, and beyond even religion itself.[1] Sogyal Rinpoche
    Aidan Spiritor: An interesting challenge would to describe it in simple plain english
    Eos Amaterasu: That's our challenge here :-)
    Paradise Tennant: :)
    Eos Amaterasu: I think starting with experience, observing that, is key
    Aidan Spiritor: Key to what?
    Paradise Tennant: like an opening door ..
    Eos Amaterasu: it - observing - is ultimately itself rigpa
    Paradise Tennant: outside the room of the senses :)
    Widget Whiteberry: for me, as I listened to the water and the birds, knowing them digital, I thought the three of us - now four - might have a more present conversation, and it seems we are
    Aidan Spiritor: Just a momentary glimpse can cut through the ignorance.
    Widget Whiteberry: have you had that experience, Aidan?
    stevenaia Michinaga: ignorance?
    Aidan Spiritor: Yes rarely.
    stevenaia Michinaga: what is ignorance
    Eos Amaterasu: that's a highly personal question
    Aidan Spiritor: Ignorance in the sense of not seeing our "real" selves.
    Widget Whiteberry: the root ignore is interesting
    stevenaia Michinaga: not sure many see real selves
    Widget Whiteberry: perhaps it is the prcocess of ignoring our nature
    Eos Amaterasu: negative gnosis
    Widget Whiteberry: connected to that
    stevenaia Michinaga: maybe a hint though
    Aidan Spiritor: and how do we know when we do?

    Paradise recalls limitless phenomenality... 

    Paradise Tennant: sometimes I think there can be a connection just through joy.. use to feel that when I was a kid .. just really happy .. so happy a feeling of oneness...
    Paradise Tennant: i think you know ..
    Paradise Tennant: well know maybe isn't the word
    Paradise Tennant: a sense of space
    Eos Amaterasu: Ah, there's a quality of unquestioning freshness
    Aidan Spiritor: And as children so few judgements.
    Eos Amaterasu: along with fresh inquisitiveness
    Widget Whiteberry: for me that feeling of oneness is more a feeling of setting aside awareness of disconnection, of separateness
    stevenaia Michinaga: what is more important, the real self, or how the world perceives your real self
    Aidan Spiritor: And much less labelling and conceptualizing.
    Eos Amaterasu: Ladies and gentlement, we approach the next gap


    stevenaia Michinaga: I perefer you have a very accurate clock Eos
    stevenaia Michinaga: was thinking about real self for 90
    Aidan Spiritor: any insights?
    stevenaia Michinaga: I often see an empty sphere with those who surround me defining it
    stevenaia Michinaga: I am defined by my actions and thir affect on others
    Aidan Spiritor: That's very interesting; how does it feel?
    stevenaia Michinaga: a hug, a smile and the reflection of that back
    Widget Whiteberry: and now, Stevenaia? Here?
    stevenaia Michinaga: and here, nothing
    Widget Whiteberry: no sense of being defined by others?
    stevenaia Michinaga: no
    stevenaia Michinaga: which is perfectly fine
    Widget Whiteberry: and what's in the center for you? the empty sphere?
    Aidan Spiritor: Where do all the ideas of self go when you aren't thinking of them?
    stevenaia Michinaga: a very nice empty sphere
    Eos Amaterasu: :-)
    stevenaia Michinaga: not sure they go anywhere, they just wait
    Eos Amaterasu: Where were all the ideas of self before you began thinking of them?
    stevenaia Michinaga: they must have arisen from somewhere, not sure the source is important
    Widget Whiteberry: we create concepts from experience
    Eos Amaterasu: That's one of the classic instructions: to watch thoughts / perceptions arise
    Widget Whiteberry nods ty to Eos
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, but they reside deep in the past
    Aidan Spiritor: And emotions
    Paradise Tennant: was remembering - once when I was a kid lying on a big rock in a rain storm and watching the rain form a big puddle on my rain jacket just around my stomach... and imagining what being an ocean would be like .. just feeling unbelievable happy to be in the rain .. and a sense of being totally connected :) i suspect opening that door is a happy experience
    stevenaia Michinaga: dificult to "touch" someone without them
    Paradise Tennant: well emotional intelligence .. a kind of empatic understanding
    Paradise Tennant: totally necessary to social systems
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, can't have that without the rain
    Paradise Tennant: ;)
    Eos Amaterasu: Paradise - revelling in Being as a child
    stevenaia Michinaga: and you as more than a metaphorical vessel
    stevenaia Michinaga: relates to what I I was thinking, you are what wthout that which surrounds you, , friends, rain, people
    stevenaia Michinaga: being
    stevenaia Michinaga: :
    Widget Whiteberry: many things can surround me
    Eos Amaterasu: 90 second puddle
    Widget Whiteberry: *smiles*
    Paradise Tennant: ;)
    Eos Amaterasu: Paradise, that quality of limitless senses you were describing....
    Eos Amaterasu: appreciating the presence of appearance
    Eos Amaterasu: we melt into its puddle
    stevenaia Michinaga: we observe
    Paradise Tennant: yes the rain is the puddle and we are the puddle too because we contain it :)) one with experience ..
    Eos Amaterasu likes the 90 second puddle :-)


    Eos Amaterasu: wb, Doug
    doug Sosa: thanks. good dinner.
    doug Sosa: please continue..
    Aidan Spiritor: You joined when we are all at a loss for words
    Aidan Spiritor: So please jump in
    doug Sosa: good place to be..
    Aidan Spiritor: BTW I can't see you
    doug Sosa: hm, i look ok to me.
    Eos Amaterasu can see doug
    Eos Amaterasu: Is doug a cloud?
    Widget Whiteberry can too
    stevenaia Michinaga: I see doug fine, waves
    doug Sosa: waves back.
    doug Sosa: but its ok if i look like a cloud to some.
    Aidan Spiritor: I see his moniker but no avatar
    Eos Amaterasu: we were talking about rain, doug, and Paradise described a childhood experience of limitless puddle
    Eos Amaterasu: :-)
    doug Sosa: :)
    Eos Amaterasu: one of those IRL - Impossible in Real Life - things :-)
    doug Sosa: so i am the cloud :(
    Aidan Spiritor: I guess for me Doug is modelling emptiness :-)
    Paradise Tennant: lol
    Widget Whiteberry: Clouds reflect in puddles
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    Widget Whiteberry: everything connects
    Eos Amaterasu: ah, but emptiness is no other than av
    doug Sosa: rain usually has that cleaning the world feeling.
    Widget Whiteberry: or drowning it.
    Eos Amaterasu: "I can see clearly now the rain has gone..."
    Widget Whiteberry thinks of today
    Eos Amaterasu: Lots of rain where you are, Widget?
    doug Sosa: "im' singin' in the rai.."
    doug Sosa: rain
    Aidan Spiritor: Rain makes me remember childhood freedom and running in the rain with no clothes
    Widget Whiteberry: no but I think
    Widget Whiteberry: Manilla is underwater
    Aidan Spiritor: Tsunami?
    Eos Amaterasu: a persistent one
    Widget Whiteberry: typhoon Ondoy
    Paradise Tennant: well emptiness has kind of a misnomer more like connectedness None of these translations of Anya is, however, quite satisfactory and there is much to be said for Stcherbatsky's [Stcherbatsky (1927). The Conception of Nirvana.] rendering - relative or contingent. Phenomena are Anya or unreal because no phenomenon when taken by itself is thinkable: they are all interdependent and have no separate existence of their own.[3]
    Eos Amaterasu: waves from 8.5 earthquake in Samoa should hit western US about now.....
    Paradise Tennant: yowser
    doug Sosa: pull my feet up into mu chair..
    Widget Whiteberry is on the pacific coast
    Widget Whiteberry: about 12 miles in
    Widget Whiteberry is glad to be sleeping upstairs tonight
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi Foxy
    Fox Monacular: hi everyone
    Aidan Spiritor: Hello
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello fox
    Paradise Tennant: hiya fox
    Eos Amaterasu: we are talking of childhood freedom, limitless puddles, and many things
    Fox Monacular: childhood freedom? it exists:)?
    Widget Whiteberry: there is freedom from and freedom to
    Fox Monacular: only before primary school perhaps:) then you're in the system
    Widget Whiteberry: childhood has elements of both
    Eos Amaterasu: maybe different freedoms at different ages
    Widget Whiteberry: even in primary school
    Fox Monacular: yes, of course:)
    Widget Whiteberry: but different, yes
    Widget Whiteberry: *smiles*
    doug Sosa: the new book, "philosophical babay" alison gopnik, says wonderful
    Aidan Spiritor: freedom is always possible--just takes a bit of work when older
    Paradise Tennant: yes
    doug Sosa: things about young minds. uch more complex than adult thinking.
    Fox Monacular: i read about that book on salon.com
    Aidan Spiritor: Midnight here; off to bed soon
    Eos Amaterasu: 'night Aidan
    Fox Monacular: what i didn't understand was that who exactly was thinking that children have promitive brains? sounds weird to me


    Widget Whiteberry: sleep well, friend
    Aidan Spiritor: good night all
    Paradise Tennant: nite nite aidan :)
    Paradise Tennant: well going to have to scoot too . .thank you all .. interesting ideas and thoughts :))
    stevenaia Michinaga: me too
    stevenaia Michinaga: see you
    Eos Amaterasu: Good night, Paradise
    Eos Amaterasu: and Steve
    doug Sosa: wonderful even if short, being with you solace..
    doug Sosa: night all.
    Paradise Tennant: nite nite eos .. doug .. fox widget :)) be well ;)
    Widget Whiteberry: good nite
    Fox Monacular: I guess I'll be going too, good night Widget and Eos
    Eos Amaterasu: Good nightm, Fox
    Widget Whiteberry: Eos, are you +4 tonight?
    Widget Whiteberry: I'd like to chat for a few minutes
    Eos Amaterasu: Yes, it's midnight here
    Eos Amaterasu: Sure
    Widget Whiteberry: skype? (quicker)
    Eos Amaterasu: okay
    Eos Amaterasu: I'll click the log
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