2009.10.03 19:00 - Long Lasting Ripples

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Pema Pera. The comments are by Pema Pera.

    doug Sosa: hi tar.
    Tarmel Udimo: Hi Doug, how's things?
    doug Sosa: great hat.
    Tarmel Udimo: tks:)
    doug Sosa: things are ok, its the people i worry about :)
    Tarmel Udimo: nods
    Pema Pera: Hi Doug and Tarmel!
    doug Sosa: hi pema.
    Tarmel Udimo: Hi there Pema
    doug Sosa: your hair is longer?
    Tarmel Udimo: Hi Eos:)
    Pema Pera: Hi Eos!
    Tarmel Udimo: Pema's hair?
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi Tarmel! Hi Pema! Hi Doug!
    doug Sosa: yes..
    Tarmel Udimo: So are you back home Pema?
    doug Sosa: eos :)
    Pema Pera: my hair hasn't changed in the last year . . . .
    Pema Pera: yes, back in New York, for a change :)
    Tarmel Udimo: nice
    doug Sosa: hm, it is hitting the bak of your shirt differently.
    Pema Pera: perhaps SL is getting smaller?
    doug Sosa: more crowded.
    Eos Amaterasu notices Tarmel's dragon pet
    Tarmel had appeared with a charming pointed red witch's hat and a small dragon on her shoulder.
    Pema Pera: the wicked witch of Oz?
    Tarmel Udimo: perhaps:)
    stevenaia Michinaga: better rezz a bit more
    Pema Pera: Hi rezzing Steve!
    stevenaia Michinaga: didn;t mean to sit on you eos
    Tarmel Udimo: Hi Steve
    Eos Amaterasu: :-)
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Doug, Pema, Tarmel
    doug Sosa: :)
    Tarmel Udimo: So....
    Tarmel Udimo: Things sure seem different aftre the retreat.. anyone else notice that?
    Pema Pera: oh yes, very much so for me
    Pema Pera: it really helped to deepen my own involvement with PaB
    Tarmel Udimo: yes?
    Eos Amaterasu: I've found that it's been an experience with long lasting ripples
    Pema Pera: made the whole thing even more concrete
    Pema Pera: yes, well put Eos, for me too
    Tarmel Udimo: yes Eos me tooo
    Pema Pera: hehehe, group think
    Tarmel Udimo: grins
    Pema Pera: well, Steve, you'll get your chance in a month!
    Pema Pera: in Princeton
    Tarmel Udimo: its like so much has dropped away
    Pema Pera: can you say more about that, Tarmel?
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, I will be happy to join you at a minimum for the better part of Saturday
    Pema Pera: great, Steve!
    Eos Amaterasu: cool!
    Tarmel Udimo: yes you must Steve the RL expereince is very different
    Pema Pera: Doug, we'll have a four day, three nights, two full days retreat in Princeton, the first weekend of November
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes
    Pema Pera: yes indeed
    stevenaia Michinaga: it;s a lovely experience
    Tarmel Udimo: well, its like I am still trying to figure it out
    doug Sosa: again sorry i can't make it. in this case costs plus other commitments.
    Tarmel started to describe her post-retreat experiences, which were similar to those of Eos and mine and others.
    Tarmel Udimo: but its like all my parts have come together and I am no longer in need of reassurance about Being
    Pema Pera: too bad we dont' have a tp in RL, Doug
    stevenaia Michinaga: Princeton is just a bit closer than Malta
    Tarmel Udimo: that would be great pema
    Pema Pera: wow, Tarmel, glad to hear that!
    Pema Pera: can you say (even) more?
    stevenaia Michinaga: Droping doubts, Tarmel?
    Eos Amaterasu: I am also wowed by that, Tarmel!
    Tarmel Udimo: yes well you did kind of ZAP me Pema:)
    doug Sosa: Inhawaii week before till 3rd.
    Pema Pera: Hawaii is on our list for RL retreats, Doug, in July perhaps
    Pema Pera: you mean, walking back from the restaurant, Tarmel?
    Tarmel Udimo: well yes that as well as the whole retreat of course but mainly then... oral transmission of some kind:)
    Pema Pera: do you want to describe what happened?
    Tarmel Udimo: Well essentially Pema joined myself, Corvi and Fefonz for a final bite in Berkely?
    Tarmel Udimo: and then walked with us to the station.
    Tarmel Udimo: During that walk Pema basically bombarded me with the need to 'wake' up
    Tarmel Udimo: That was it really quite a simple everyday activity... but coupled with the retreat I think something shifted...
    Tarmel Udimo: What about you Eos, you mentioned ripples?
    Pema Pera: I basically asked Tarmel when she wanted to "wake up", pointing out that it couldn't possibly take time :-)
    Eos Amaterasu: :-)
    Eos Amaterasu: The RL retreat was more meaningful and lasting than anticipated - I mean, was kind of an experiment
    Tarmel Udimo: :)
    Tarmel Udimo: nods
    Eos Amaterasu: and the retreat time itself had a kind of vividness
    Tarmel Udimo: nods
    Eos Amaterasu: but I keep noticing/encountering that just doing this, whether 9secs or 90 or random or longer, whenever,
    Eos Amaterasu: actually "works" - it's just enough, and it keeps disclosing more
    Eos Amaterasu: it's also affected the cross SL/RL boundary
    Pema Pera: yes, it grows on itself, doesn't it
    doug Sosa: part of the 9 sec seems to me that one can experience one is is in it because there is not in it experience at both ends. whereas
    doug Sosa: i normal meditation the "in it" is so long that the contrast is not so evident.
    Pema Pera: interesting point, Doug!
    Tarmel Udimo: not sure if I got it?
    Eos Amaterasu: also done in little dots it can become or be more normal
    Pema Pera: second nature, yes
    Pema Pera: like breathing almost
    doug Sosa: its like if a vacation were a year long, he contrast between vacation and not vaction would dissapear from consciousness.
    Pema Pera: Tarmel, Doug pointed to the transitions, in and out of the 9 seconds
    Tarmel Udimo: OK
    Pema Pera: whereas transitions in and out of half an hour of meditation are less frequent
    doug Sosa: and less clear.
    Tarmel Udimo: nods
    In response to Tarmel, I tried to express the effect that the August retreat had had on me, but I found it difficult to really convey the sense in a few words.  I was clearly struggling for words.
    Pema Pera: for me an important effect of the retreat has been that it somehow produced a much stronger connection between the 9-sec practice and my normal practice that I was already engaged in
    Tarmel Udimo: yes?
    doug Sosa: we are talking of the santa cruz retreat?
    Tarmel Udimo: in what way?
    Pema Pera: yes
    Pema Pera: integrating more my regular daily practice into a momen-to-moment sense during the day
    Tarmel Udimo: nods
    doug Sosa: i need to go at the bell.
    Pema Pera: (as I told *you* to do, I guess it backfired!!)
    stevenaia Michinaga: enjoy dinner
    Tarmel Udimo: hehe
    Pema Pera: (be carefull what you wish to others, hehe)
    Tarmel Udimo: well I am glad it backfired if that was the case:)
    Pema Pera: :)
    Tarmel Udimo: its strange it feels less about practice and more about just being present
    Pema Pera: the whole spirit of PaB is very close to that of wu-wei, not-doing, yes, Tarmel
    Pema Pera: letting it be, letting it happen
    Pema Pera: not trying to interfere
    Tarmel Udimo: nods
    Pema Pera: yet being alert and present
    Pema Pera: watching
    stevenaia Michinaga: I enjoy the opportunities to turn my thinking inside out, be it for 9 or 90 seconds and as the day moves on
    Eos Amaterasu: HI Fox!
    Fox Monacular: Hi everyone
    stevenaia Michinaga: it all helps with that
    Tarmel Udimo: Hi Fox
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello fox
    Pema Pera: Good evening Fox!
    Fox joined us and talked about her experiences attending a Dalai Lama talk.
    Fox Monacular: I went to Dalai Lama's talk today:)
    Fox Monacular: so I'm all inspired
    Tarmel Udimo: in what way may i ask?
    Fox Monacular: it was a public talk on compassion and education
    Tarmel Udimo: intergrating compassion into education?
    Fox Monacular: well, basically he just talked about compassion, and at the end formulated that integrating compassionate ethics into education is the next challenge for this century
    Fox Monacular: the talk was nice, but the place was very disorienting for me - it was in a huge stadium - 15 000 people they say
    Pema Pera: wow! That's quite a crowd
    Tarmel Udimo: wow
    Fox Monacular: yeah, hard to wrap your mind around
    Fox Monacular: I've been to such a huge place only once before - to see cirque du soleil... and it was spooky:)
    Fox Monacular: and Mathieu Ricard was his French translator today:)
    Pema Pera: I've never met him, but he seems like a very special person, from what I've read
    stevenaia Michinaga: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthieu_Ricard
    Tarmel Udimo: are you in France Fox?
    Tarmel Udimo: tks Steve
    Fox Monacular: I could hardly see anything, of course, because we were kinda far, and so saw mostly screens, but it was nice to know you're in the presence... like knowing that he's there:)
    Fox Monacular: No, I'm in Montreal
    Tarmel Udimo: ahh canada like Eos
    Fox Monacular: yes:)
    Eos Amaterasu: :-)
    Eos Amaterasu: it's a broad topic - integrating compassionate ethics into education - but think that's where the short PaB sessions can make that real in everyday life
    Eos Amaterasu: at least re connecting where such an ethics comes from
    Pema Pera: yes, ethics is all about integration
    Fox Monacular: it's also a loaded topic, since there are many religious backgrounds... and the whole hostility between atheists and believers... we have a long way to go to develop a sensitive approach
    Eos Amaterasu: yes, so it has to be accessible either thru or without such lenses
    Pema Pera: yes, PaB is an attempt to go beyond the divide
    Fox Monacular: nods
    Tarmel Udimo: so what would that look like? intergrating compassionate ethics into education?
    Fox Monacular: good question:)
    I brought up the ideal of the Kira Institute (http://kira.org).
    Pema Pera: Kira is a modest attempt in that direction . . . .
    Tarmel Udimo: nods
    Pema Pera: educating from a base attitude of respect rather than competition
    Tarmel Udimo: OK
    Fox Monacular: in some schools they do 15 mins of transcendental meditation before classes... they found that it reduces aggressivity and improves relashionships between pupils and teachers
    Fox Monacular: yes
    Tarmel Udimo: OH
    Pema Pera: The vision I had, and still have, is that Kira could grow into a kind of "university based on respect"
    stevenaia Michinaga: the insecurities of humanity creates that competition
    Pema Pera: interesting, Fox
    Fox Monacular: university based on respect:) how great!
    Fox Monacular: actually TM in schools is promoted by David Lynch foundations
    Eos Amaterasu: One aspect is that of ethics coming from Being rather than from rules, prescriptions for actions
    Pema Pera: So there are Catholic Universities, Black Universities, Buddhist Universities; Kira's possible goal would be a University based not on a creed or a subgroup, but on respect
    Pema Pera: YES, Eos!
    Tarmel Udimo: to achieve this would take some kind of training as outlined by Eos
    Fox Monacular: The question is: how many people are actually ready for this:)
    Tarmel Udimo: my question too
    Eos Amaterasu: so in a way ethics in education means that we students :-) also learn, practice getting or not getting away from being
    Pema Pera: respect, like in PaB; that is one thing PaB and Kira have in common, even while there are many differences. We don't respond with "I disagree!" but with "interesting, can you tell me more, so we can compare notes?"
    Pema Pera: perhaps more than we think, Fox -- most people have never even gotten exposed!
    Pema Pera: yes, Eos, very much so
    Pema Pera: we are all students together, learning from each other
    Fox Monacular: you know, sometimes I find that with my friends, my teachers, my family we have some common understanding of these thigs, there;s PaB, there;s Kira... and then I go out for a drink and find out that people are still homophobic, or still rant that religion is the root of all evil...
    Eos Amaterasu: It's bringing it into the everyday that's a challenge
    Fox Monacular: and I find that I don't know what to answer to such things anymore... because I have incorporated certain things as true and good and obvious
    Steve brought up a central question.
    stevenaia Michinaga: why is "respect" such a dificult concept, why do people think they loose something by respecting others (who may disagree)
    Fox Monacular: yes, exactly
    Eos Amaterasu: they feel threatened
    stevenaia Michinaga: seems to be a fence the place around themslves
    Fox Monacular: if they feel threatened, does it imply they are insecure in their own worldview?
    Eos Amaterasu: Well, if something questions their worldview they feel threatened - we do too :-)
    Eos Amaterasu: At least for an instant :-)
    Tarmel Udimo: its an emotional response that unfortuantely is triggered and often the person has no control.. or even awareness of the need for control
    Pema Pera: we draw back from what we are into what we have -- a movement largely built on fear, a defense reaction; PaB gently tries to undo that
    Tarmel Udimo: and is fear based,
    Pema Pera: yes, Eos, and it's fun to watch that, isn't it, in ourselves!
    Tarmel Udimo: agree with pema
    Fox Monacular: yes, I know!
    Fox Monacular: I get into very heated debates with my brother in law who is in evolutionary psychology
    Fox Monacular: and I often observe myself becoming very emotional and defensive...:)
    stevenaia Michinaga: having compassion for someone does not mean you necessarily share their view or lifestyle, compassion does not diminish or threaten
    Fox Monacular: that's right, and that is why compassion is like a muscle that needs to be built gradually
    Eos Amaterasu: as does our own sense of being able to let go
    Tarmel Udimo: nods being right is no longer important
    Fox Monacular: Dalai Lama gave an example today of a Tibetan monk who was in Chinese concentration camps for 20 years, was then released, and was asked what was the greatest danger that he faced in the goulags. He responded that the greatest danger was losing his compassion towards the Chinese
    Pema Pera: that's a profound reaction, Fox . . . .
    Tarmel Udimo: yes
    Fox Monacular: that's a high degree of compassion training...!
    Tarmel Udimo: yes talk about one pointed focus in a lifetime:)
    Fox Monacular: I'm from Russia, and there were memberst of my family that were victims of the Stalinist regime, and the new regime is also quite bloody, and even now, in Canada, I sometimes have real anger buld up, even though I directly didn't saw anything evil myself... but have family members who suffered
    Tarmel Udimo: nods
    Fox Monacular: even to just imagine being compassionate towards some people of the government is hard for me... although in theory I know why I should
    Eos Amaterasu: I've found that people with concentration camp and similar histories can still relate very humanely to individual people
    Eos Amaterasu: the question is about the "systems" the "oppressors" belong to
    Pema Pera: I have a similar experience, Fox, growing up soon after the second world war, and hearing stories about the German occupation of Holland; probably not as brutal as in your case, but nonetheless incredibly brutal for those who were directly affected
    Eos Amaterasu: and we sometimes find ourselves belonging to such oppressive systems
    Pema Pera: and indeed, some people could cope with it remarkabl well
    Eos Amaterasu: that's the challenge for ethics
    Fox Monacular: yes, in theory I understand. but when I introspectively observe myself, I know I can't quite help feeling strong emotion
    Pema Pera: "unconditional" is what is being tested in compassion under such circumstances
    Fox Monacular: yes, exactly
    stevenaia Michinaga: certain aspects of compassion are as blind as some aspects of love
    Pema Pera: yes, Fox, and the challenge is NOT to suppress or deny or wish away those emotions, but to include them in what you feel compassion about -- if you don't look at your own reactions in an inclusive compassionate way you cannot possibly be compassionate toward others
    Tarmel Udimo: well said Pema
    Tarmel Udimo: and the only way to deal with it
    Eos introduces an interesting new initiative.
    Eos Amaterasu: I have to leave, but just want to say that Eliza and I have been talking about having a book club or something similar about Francisco Varela's "Ethical Know-How", a very short book which I believe talks about ethics from Being
    Pema Pera: what you really are goes beyond your emotions; emotions are tools or ornaments to work with and polish
    Tarmel Udimo: grest topic Eos
    Eos Amaterasu: (I believe based on having read it twice :-)
    Tarmel Udimo: And true enough Pema
    Pema Pera: great idea, Eos!
    Tarmel Udimo: *great
    Pema Pera: and actually, I have to go too
    Tarmel Udimo: yes me too
    Tarmel Udimo: nice chat all
    Pema Pera: how do you intend to structure that, Eos?
    Eos Amaterasu: This was great discussion - thanks all, and see you soon!
    Fox Monacular: that would be great Eos
    Eos Amaterasu: Not sure - maybe just announce it, and set it up with those that are interested.
    stevenaia Michinaga: you should have it here, in the community
    Fox Monacular: yes, I know what you mean, Pema
    Pema Pera: sure
    Pema Pera: (to Eos)
    Fox Monacular: I'm definitely interested
    Eos Amaterasu: Elize suggested doing it a spart of regular sessions - that's one way
    Pema Pera: perhaps in the Village?
    Tarmel Udimo: keep us all posted
    Pema Pera: the PaB Village?
    Eos Amaterasu: Yes
    Tarmel Udimo: yes right place
    Fox Monacular: yes, we should start using tje village:)
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes
    Tarmel Udimo: I am thinking of moving in:)
    stevenaia Michinaga: it's easier than you think Tarmel
    Tarmel Udimo: grins at Steve, actually found a spot I liek
    Tarmel Udimo: Like
    Tarmel Udimo: close to a tree:)
    stevenaia Michinaga: or, bring your own tree
    Pema Pera: bfn
    Eos Amaterasu: bye....
    Tarmel Udimo: bye
    stevenaia Michinaga: buy pema, see you soon
    Eos Amaterasu: ttfn!
    Fox Monacular: bye everyone, thanks for the great discussion
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