2009.10.04 13:00 - AI (artificial intelligence)

The Guardian for this meeting was Maxine Walden. The comments are by Maxine Walden.

This session drew about a dozen people who gathered over the first 15 minutes or so.  It seemed difficult to get a conversation going about PaB issues, but spontaneous discussion did arise about a number of issues including artificial intelligence.  The text will speak for itself.  (I have deleted many of the introductions to allow focus on the main topics discussed) 

Maxine Walden: we may still be gathering, but are there some PaB issues, observations for us to consider?
Pema Pera: sure, I'd love to discuss those
Maxine Walden: :)

A few minutes later I try again.

Maxine Walden: we were just wondering about some PaB observations or topics....
SophiaSharon Larnia: I just read the emails you sent Pema, and am so invigorated :))
Pema Pera: :)
Pema Pera: glad to hear that, SophiaSharon!
Maxine Walden: yes :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes its exciting stuff


Several more greetings and entry of participants

Pema Pera: Maxine, do you want to start the discussion?
Maxine Walden: I asked if anyone has observations, or issues re PaB earlier
Maxine Walden: and it seemed we were still gathering...but maybe we can ask the question again, with such a full house
--BELL--
doug Sosa: i've been thinking about when the world of the 9 sec is more attractive and when RL is more attractive, or maybe the word is "compelling".
Maxine Walden: care to say more, doug?
doug Sosa: I could say no..
doug Sosa: but that isn't very friendly. I think..
doug Sosa: i mean it just that way. most of the time
doug Sosa: i love to go into the 9 sec, but sometimes
doug Sosa: the normal world is jjust so... there.
doug Sosa: and wants play. I have a new ofice..
Pila Mulligan: hello Eliza
SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: Hello everyone :)
doug Sosa: and my mind wants to go there.
doug Sosa: not for the decoration but for the use.
sophia Placebo: Hi Eliza
Pila Mulligan: :)
doug Sosa: We saved a place for you :)
Eos Amaterasu: Eli :-)
Mickorod Renard: hi Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: Thanks much :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey gaya :)
Mickorod Renard: Hi gaya
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Gaya :)
sophia Placebo: hello gaya :)
arabella Ella: hiya Gaya
SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Gaya
Pila Mulligan: hi Gaya
Gaya Serendipity: Hello :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: do you mean metaphorically, Doug, or literally?
Mickorod Renard: I must admit, I am having trouble breaking away from the fun I have at work to do the 9 seconds
Pila Mulligan: somethings really seem to capture our interest, especially new things
arabella Ella: why this human craving for novelty i wonder?
arabella Ella: or for distractions?
Maxine Walden: I had an experience during this just past 9 sec practice...of just being aware of heartbeat and pulse...sometimes the mundane rythyms of life seem too plain
Fox Monacular: Hello everyone
SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Fox
Mickorod Renard: Hi Fox
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Fox :)
arabella Ella: hiya Fox
sophia Placebo: hi fox
Pila Mulligan: hello Fox
doug Sosa: kind of like gilbert and sullivan.. :)
Maxine Walden: and 'novelty' distracts?
Mickorod Renard: its conditioning I guess?
Eos Amaterasu: Often it's not novelty, but repetitive stuff
Maxine Walden: we may be speaking about how 'fun and games' can distract us from basic awarenesses
Maxine Walden: (stopped the conversation?)

Pema asks a question

Pema Pera: can I do a quick poll?
Maxine Walden: please
Pema Pera: For a weekly guardian meeting
Pema Pera: we used to have Sundays 8 am SLT
Pema Pera: but Pila just emailed me that 5 am is too early for him
Pema Pera: how about 2 pm SLT
Pema Pera: would that work for everybody?
Pema Pera: who can *not* come at 2 pm SLT?
Maxine Walden: I have another meeting then
Mickorod Renard: 2 pm is ok with me
Pila Mulligan: that may be late in Europe -- its this round world thing
Pema Pera: (though perhaps those who can't, can't be here at 1 pm either :-)
Yakuzza Lethecus: 2pm is very late
sophia Placebo: me :)
arabella Ella: its fine with me
Pila Mulligan: ... but fine with me
Pema Pera: it may be impossible to get one time for everybody
Mickorod Renard: 2 pm would be 11pm for you Yaku
Mickorod Renard: i think
arabella Ella: yes Yaku immediately after PaB
Yakuzza Lethecus: i have to get up at 7:30 pdt in the morning
Mickorod Renard: ahh you young ones,,no staying power
Yakuzza Lethecus: but keep it at 2 pm
doug Sosa: ok.
Pema Pera: an alternative would be 12 noon on Sunday
Gaya Serendipity: I can't do 12 noon SLT - I have Tibetan class.
arabella Ella: that would clash with Gaya's WoK meeting
arabella Ella: right Gaya?
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Eos Amaterasu: (why can't we live on a flat earth?)
Mickorod Renard: which many of us attend
SophiaSharon Larnia: either one, would miss 1 out of 3 so either is fine with me :)
Gaya Serendipity: Sorry I have Tibetan at 10 am then WoK meeting at noon.
Maxine Walden: 12 noon Sunday would work for me
sophia Placebo: 2 hold a possibility , 12 noon hold non for me
Mickorod Renard: he he
Yakuzza Lethecus: so 2pm is fine
Pema Pera: well, this gives me an impression; we can do the rest by email
Pema Pera: thank you!
Yakuzza Lethecus: there is a problem at anytime for anyone
Pema Pera: yes
Pema Pera: so we'll choose two times
--BELL--
Maxine Walden: we are about to have a 90 sec pause, shall we see what we experience?

But we are not onto PaB issues it seems, but rather important scheduling

Eliza Madrigal: Perhaps alternating would be a good idea... biweekly... morning/afternoon?
Eliza Madrigal: one week early, the next later?
Pema Pera: yes
Mickorod Renard: thats a good idea
Eos Amaterasu likes that idea
Maxine Walden: if we can keep the weeks straight
Eliza Madrigal: :) well yes that would be helpful
Gaya Serendipity leaves quietly. RL calls, good night :)
Eos Amaterasu: 'night bunny
Mickorod Renard: bye gaya
Maxine Walden: but it would give everyone a chance to come at least once every two weeks or so
SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Gaya
sophia Placebo: bye gaya
Maxine Walden: you know, maybe we are talking about concrete and practical things about meeting times, etc because it is difficult to find a meeting place with our practice
Maxine Walden: we have so many things that distract us
Maxine Walden: not to say the practicals are not important, just so much easier to talk about
Pema Pera: :)
arabella Ella: if i may be permitted to change the topic

Arabella asks a question which begins the discussion which will consider artificial intelligence, but of course other things as well

arabella Ella: i would like an opinion from all here
Maxine Walden: of course, ara
arabella Ella: on what you think the future of higher education will be
arabella Ella: say in 10 to 15 years time?
arabella Ella: like a huge leap in to the future ... visions ... scenarios?
Mickorod Renard: unless we save the planet it wont be needed
arabella Ella: :)
arabella Ella: lets assume the planet will still be here
Mickorod Renard: ok
Eos Amaterasu: I would hope it would include more practice of how to hold our minds, our selves, which in turn are what are holding our planet
Eos Amaterasu: (& the interesting vice-versa question....)
arabella Ella: yes
doug Sosa: Two scenarios: one, it kind of falls apart into small movements, like monestaries, local and spiritual and pragmatic.
doug Sosa: the other
Fox Monacular: it would be nice if after specialization (like now) came integration and interdisciplinarity
doug Sosa: is that it is an even tighter strugle as a path into the elite and authoritarian control
arabella Ella: you seem to be reading my mind there Fox
arabella Ella: i was gonna ask ... will it be more comparmentalised or more interdisciplinary?
arabella Ella: interesting doug
arabella Ella: please say more if u cud
Fox Monacular: hopefully interdisciplinary, but now I see growing divides
doug Sosa: The rpoblem with interdisciplinary is that neurology, tied to atificail intelligence ( i just got an email about a symposium on "outsourcing your memory" )
arabella Ella: yes ... unfortunately IMHO
doug Sosa: will be the dominant integrating disciplie until it braks down from leaving out too much.
arabella Ella: leaving out too much ... dont you think many more questions will be answered doug?
arabella Ella: dont we always widen the goal posts once we achieve our aims ... making the target increasingly more difficult to achieve?
doug Sosa: no. we all too often narrow.
arabella Ella: will memory still play an important role in higher education ... or will skills take over?
doug Sosa: Look at how "finance" excluded economics, that is, wealth, resources and the rst of the real world.
arabella Ella: IMHO in AI we often widen the goal posts
Mickorod Renard: my thoughts too Doug
Eos Amaterasu: we need to discover and then address our blind spots (as in finance)
Eliza Madrigal: Have a lovely rest of Sunday everyone :) Bye for now
arabella Ella: is that being done in HE you think Eos?
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye eliza
Pila Mulligan: bye Eliza
Mickorod Renard: Bye Eliza
sophia Placebo: bye eliza
SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Eliza
Yakuzza Lethecus: night/bye everyone
Mickorod Renard: nite Yaku
sophia Placebo: bye yak
SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Yakuzza, I must go too, take care everyone :)
Mickorod Renard: AFC
sophia Placebo: bye sophias
Pila Mulligan: by SophiaSharon
--BELL--
Pila Mulligan: I'm unfamiliar with how atificial intelligence relates to education these days ... (?)
arabella Ella: doug brought up the topic of AI
arabella Ella: as he said neurology and AI are ... need to look up his comment there :)
doug Sosa: ther is a field called "developmental neurology."
arabella Ella: (My memory ...)
Pila Mulligan: :) I thoung AI was just an abstraction for software
arabella Ella: as far as i know AI is mostly focussed on in IT faculties
doug Sosa: It is fascinating, and a bit narrow.
Pila Mulligan: could you elaboarate a bit, please, doug?
doug Sosa: Not easy. The drive is to make models of the brain, that take into account the new developments in understanding neirons. So, is this reductionistic? Last week, anotehr symposium on "we can now simulate 1 billion neurons interacting in real time. This is jjust a factor of ten from the real brain.." not the slip from one realm to another.
doug Sosa: Now, look at where the funding comes from, big pharma and military and homeland security.
doug Sosa: not=note
arabella Ella: that is scarey doug
arabella Ella: as they all have specific agendas
arabella Ella: which may limit authentic research
arabella Ella: authentic ... in the sense of opposite of agenda based
doug Sosa: yes, and education is not one of them except to the extent there are opportnities to replace some of education with drugs and (what, inplants, programming..?)
Fox Monacular: I think AI now is more than computational brain model... they incorporate subjectivity and artistic research too now
arabella Ella: and ... the question arises ... should educational funding come from such sources in the future ... or are other options open?
Pila Mulligan: I'm already bothered by genetic modification, now to add brain imitation :)
doug Sosa: Sure, lets get computers to be crative. just a question of programming, right?
arabella Ella: i dont mind the idea of implants ... our cell phones are already a sort of prosthetic device with additional memory as are our laptops
Fox Monacular: no, what I mean is that AI is now slowly getting away from the ghost in the machine
Fox Monacular: at least some people in AI
arabella Ella: and whether computers are creative is just a matter of what definition you give to creative
Eos Amaterasu: problem is _we_ tend to become artificially intelligent
Pema Pera: I'll have to leave, I'm afraid. See you all soon!
Eos Amaterasu: we create a simplified model, and then model ourselves on that
doug Sosa: But ther is a ghost in the machine, and they don;t want us to beleieve it. it is all rpogrammable, skripted, aganet modules..
Fox Monacular: for example articles in Artificial Intelligence and Society journal are often really interdisciplinary and talk about phenomenology and subjectivity and social systems and such
sophia Placebo: bye pema
Eos Amaterasu: "authentic" research - the "authentic" part is also a practice
Pila Mulligan: bye Pema
Mickorod Renard: bye Pema
arabella Ella: bye Pema
doug Sosa: Not interdiscipinary, more overreach of empire.
Fox Monacular: some are interdisciplinary :)

I have to go as well, and as usual the conversation continues

Maxine Walden: I will have to go as well. see you all soon.
sophia Placebo: bye max
Pila Mulligan: bye Maxine
Fox Monacular: but it's a minority, yes
Eos Amaterasu: bye Maxi
Fox Monacular: bye Maxine
Mickorod Renard: bye max
Fox Monacular: what I meant is that not all AI people are concerned with ghost in the machine anymore
arabella Ella: most are not
sophia Placebo: my brain circuts start to shut down i guess , night all !
doug Sosa: These are profoundly diiffcult questions, either because they upset our epistemology, or they upset our career paths.
arabella Ella: nite sophia
Pila Mulligan: bye Sophia :)
Eos Amaterasu: true, Fox, but that needs to start reaching the halls of power
Mickorod Renard: nite sofia
Eos Amaterasu: probably dire necessity will be the only way
arabella Ella: yea Eos ... reaching the halls of power ... what a difficult enterprise that would be :)
Fox Monacular: I'm working with some people in AI, and it is really interesting, they do responsive media, phenomenological experiments and total events
arabella Ella: sounds intruiging to me Fox ... would love to hear more
Fox Monacular: but these are marginal people in academia... not industry-driven
Eos Amaterasu needs to connect with Fox on that work
Eos Amaterasu: Ah yes, Fox
Eos Amaterasu: but there is a meeting point
Fox Monacular: hopefully:)
arabella Ella: yes needs to connect with Fox too
Eos Amaterasu: because the people doing corporate change management, are starting to realize the need to address the "blind spot": subjectivity
arabella Ella: yes
Eos Amaterasu: eg. MIT Society for Organiational Learning
Eos Amaterasu: "Presencing", as presented by Otto Scharmer, etc
Fox Monacular: I work with some poeple in topological media lab in concordia, they are not AI per ce but publish in AI journals
doug Sosa: I was at the foubding meeting of SOL.
arabella Ella: cool
Fox Monacular: topologicalmedialab.net
Eos Amaterasu: ALIA Institute - which in our vocabullary is how to lead from Being
Fox Monacular: also, a journal that I mentioned before, AI and society publishes some pretty cool stuff
Fox Monacular: http://www.springer.com/computer/artificial/journal/146
--BELL--
Pila Mulligan: thanks for the link Fox
Eos Amaterasu: Also, there's openings to introduce symbiosis into software itself
Fox Monacular: As the 21st Century dawns, a gap is emerging between the reality of the rapidly evolving 'information society' and the humanistic vision of developing socially useful technologies which deal with wider societal issues. AI & Society provides an international forum for analysis of these conflicts and dilemmas, and a focus for a growing community committed to the 'knowledge society' and to 'human-centered' technologies and systems.
Fox Monacular: that's from AI and society
arabella Ella: thanks Fox
arabella Ella: and from what i can see it is an open source journal too right?
Fox Monacular: sorry to interrupt 90 sec
arabella Ella: :)
Fox Monacular: I don't know about open source... I always access it through university account:)
arabella Ella: oh ok now i see
arabella Ella: it got me through cos i am using my uni IP
Eos Amaterasu: Nah, DRM .... sucks
arabella Ella: so it recognised it immediately :)
Fox Monacular: So perhaps AI is not not so much about how to simulate human brain but rather how to build machines that we will interact with
Pila Mulligan: DRM?
Eos Amaterasu: Digital Rights Management - locks you out of publically funded research
Pila Mulligan: thanks
arabella Ella: yes Fox I agree ... so many practical things AI could be so useful for
Pila Mulligan: for the definiiotn
Eos Amaterasu: part of my interest in PaB is that I see it, or something like it, as essential practice of us as human beings if we are to survive
Eos Amaterasu: the results of our ill-considered actions are just too huge
Eos Amaterasu: so how do we "well-consider"?
Eos Amaterasu: Delphi: know thyself
arabella Ella: that is a huge question Eos
Fox Monacular: sorry everyone, I have to leave
Pila Mulligan: Eos, we are about to shift over to the village to consider the common area between arabella, Mick and me
Mickorod Renard: bye Fox
Fox Monacular: thanks for the great discussion
Pila Mulligan: oops
Eos Amaterasu: Thanks Fox
Pila Mulligan: so much for the plan
arabella Ella: bye Eos
Pila Mulligan: we can stay then
arabella Ella: we should bring up this topic again soon ok?
Fox Monacular: yes, definitely
Pila Mulligan: it was to try to squeeze some time in befiore Fox had to go
Pila Mulligan: :)
Mickorod Renard: sounds intiguing
Mickorod Renard: ok,,going to Ara's plot
Eos Amaterasu: Okay... see you all soon.. bye!
Mickorod Renard: nice seeing you Eos
Mickorod Renard: bye
arabella Ella: bye
Pila Mulligan: forward, then
Mickorod Renard: or come with us
Eos Amaterasu: I'll be there later tonight.... int he village
Pila Mulligan: see you then Eos :)
Mickorod Renard: great
Pila Mulligan: bye for onw