2009.10.06 13:00 - A light session of Death and Depression

The Guardian for this meeting was Mickorod Renard

"Life is beauty, admire it.
Life is bliss, taste it.
Life is a dream, realize it.
Life is a challenge, meet it.
Life is a duty, complete it.
Life is a game, play it.
Life is a promise, fulfill it.
Life is sorrow, overcome it.
Life is a song, sing it.
Life is a struggle, accept it.
Life is a tragedy, confront it.
Life is an adventure, dare it.
Life is luck, make it.
Life is too precious, do not destroy it.
Life is life, fight for it."

- Mother Theresa

    Mickorod Renard: I get the idea your mentioning death and suchlike may stir emotions in folk Mary
    Mary Korpov: Why is that?
    Mickorod Renard: well, noone said as much but from my perspective death is usually a 'not mentioned subject' he he
    Mary Korpov: That's stupid. It's going to happen to all of us. Why not talk about it?
    Mickorod Renard: I know, I am with you there, maybe its a good idea to bring it up more often
    Mary Korpov: It seems like there are a lot of Europeans here. Maybe it is cultural. I'm not european.
    Qt Core: what you can say about that, no one can do anything serious about it and nobody knows the topic
    Mickorod Renard: well, I have a history of putting myself in danger, death is something that has never been a concern for me
    Mary Korpov: I've been in a few tight pickles myself.
    Qt Core: i just had once the nearby hospital phoning me asking why i wasn't death or at least in a coma ;-)
    Mickorod Renard: yes, I guess thats true too Qt, we have such little knowledge on what happenes when we are truly dead
    Mary Korpov: We don't have any knowledge of it
    Mickorod Renard: thats odd QT whats that about then?
    Qt Core: about my blood sugar level
    Mary Korpov: usually peopl just call me wishing that I were dead
    Wol Euler: O.O
    Mickorod Renard: ahh,are you diabetic?
    Qt Core: no more, but that was when i discovered i was
    Mickorod Renard: ohh,,so it was treated with medicine rather than insulin?
    Qt Core: yes, and diet, and stopping living in a sugar universe ;-)
    Wol Euler: very tricky that! there's sugar in everything htese days, it seems
    Mickorod Renard: he he , my wife is insulin dependent diabetic
    Qt Core: yes, but in the couple years before that i was really over the top with sugar consumption
    Mary Korpov: So I' curious why death is "not talked about" here
    
   Mickorod Renard: yea, I know of some of the dificulties
    Wol Euler: one reason might be that we usually talk about observation and experiences, and none of us hs experienced that yet
    Mary Korpov: makes sense
    Mickorod Renard: I wouldnt say its a taboo subject, but I guess its out of character when we look at enhancing our appreciation of life
    Mary Korpov: But we can observe others dying and dead
    Mary Korpov: With that I would disagree. It seems very much in character when thinking about enhancing life
    Mary Korpov: You can't fully ejoy pleasure unless you have fully felt pain
    Qt Core: as a reminder that we must live now or for something else ?
    Mickorod Renard: I am sure your right, it reminds me of a book or program I recently saw,,observing death is very much understanding life too
    Mary Korpov: I think living now is right, but I didn't mean it that way
    Qt Core: (i thought that, Mary)
    Mary Korpov: When I first saw my mother dead, I had a much stronger sense of life
    Mickorod Renard: ohh I remember now, it was the opening chapter or two of Mary Shellys 'Frankenstien'
    sophia Placebo: what brought the death topic if i may ask ?
    Mary Korpov: Mick did
    Mickorod Renard: me
    Qt Core: remembering Mary speaking about suicide
    Mickorod Renard: yes, that was it
    Mary Korpov: Right blame it on me
    Qt Core: ;)
    Mickorod Renard: its natural I would think to find talking about death as a lil sombre
    Mary Korpov: I was just sitting here minding my own business
    sophia Placebo: yes i remmber , she had a point as related to yesterday
    Mary Korpov: What was my point?
    Mickorod Renard: but its poingniant to remind ourselves that we are so entwined with life and death
    Mary Korpov: Death is just as everywhere as life is
    sophia Placebo: i guess you rplayed to would one be himself if he was born in another invironment ,another parents
    Mickorod Renard: I always think its strange how some people go crazy as they get old and start repenting their sins etc,,just in case there is a God
    Mickorod Renard: preparing for death
    Mary Korpov: Believing in a god seems crazy to me in the first place
    Mickorod Renard: Well, many folk choose their beliefs for diferent reasons, but I think basically its about compartmentalising things that cant be understood
    Mary Korpov: Yes, fear of teh unknown
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Zon
    Zon Muhindra: hello
    Mickorod Renard: not nessesarily fear
    Mary Korpov: I think it's fear
    Mickorod Renard: Hi, come and sit with us if u like
    sophia Placebo: hi zon
    Mickorod Renard: Hi, just agve u a notecard
    Zon Muhindra: k, reading....
    Mickorod Renard: the chat log here gets put on a public wiki
    Mickorod Renard: so if you are uncomfortable with that please say and i can doctor it
    Zon Muhindra: k..dont let me disturb..go on..lol
    Mickorod Renard: ok
    Mary Korpov: Maybe god and death are the same thing--just labels to describe things we don't understand
    Mickorod Renard: thers not so much fear as the unexplained
    Mickorod Renard: its handy to put some things in compartments
    Zon Muhindra: god is not death..but life..lol
    Mickorod Renard: yes, for me, but thats not everyones opinion
    Mickorod Renard: Zon is new I think
    Zon Muhindra: yes
    Zon Muhindra: so i might say something wrong but bear with me
    Wol Euler: :)
    Mickorod Renard: Wol, could you give Zon a quick insite to what we do here?
    sophia Placebo: we would bear with you
    Zon Muhindra: :)
    Wol Euler chuckles.
    Mickorod Renard: I am sure there would be nothing that hasnt already been said wrong,,he he
    Wol Euler: ok, the short version. In theory we are a meditation group, we meet to discuss our practices and matters that arise from them
    Zon Muhindra: good..im on right palce then
    Wol Euler: in reality, we often just sit and chat :)
    Mickorod Renard: grin
    Zon Muhindra: even better
    Bertram Jacobus: both fine
    Wol Euler: the practice is a kind of "time tax", in the pure theoretical form we stop to meditate for nine seconds every quarter-hour
    Mickorod Renard: when the fountain goes misty we contemplate for a few seconds
    Mickorod Renard: and dont talk
    Bertram Jacobus: mostly ;-)
    Wol Euler: the idea being to take meditation down from the pedestal of being a special thing to do only at a certain place and time
    Zon Muhindra: mmm..sounds good idea
    Wol Euler: and to make it a part of normal lilfe, a tool available to you at all times and in any place
    Zon Muhindra: agrees heavily
    Mickorod Renard: thanks Wol, I needed reminding myself
    arabella Ella: that's a lovely description Wol for all of us thanks :)
    Wol Euler: :)
    Wol Euler smiles. I'm pleased.
    Bertram Jacobus: i´m too very enlightened by wols explanations ! ... :-)
    Zon Muhindra: to be aware..isnt it ..in all different situations
    Wol Euler: mmhmm
    Bertram Jacobus: hey hoo yak :-)
    Mickorod Renard: we meet here 4 times a day
    Zon Muhindra: hi
    Mickorod Renard: what are your interests Zon, if I may ask?
    Zon Muhindra: why, how, what
    Mickorod Renard: sounds like us
    Zon Muhindra: lol
    Mary Korpov: I'm back. And, Zon, don't let me scare you, but I'm the death lady
    Mickorod Renard: he he
    sophia Placebo: hehe
    Zon Muhindra: whta does that mean
    Wol Euler: we all have our hobbies.
    Bertram Jacobus: re mary :-)
    Zon Muhindra: im exited now
    Mary Korpov: I bring up morbid topics that others don't like...
    Zon Muhindra: i like them
    Mickorod Renard: well, the problem with that is its a dead end subject
    Mary Korpov: Jokes like that will be the death of you, Mick
    Mickorod Renard: silent period
    Mary Korpov: sshhhhhhhhh
    Zon Muhindra: Mary..thats ok..im the life guy
    Mary Korpov: Now you can be loud
    Bertram Jacobus: whaow ! a life guy ! :-)
    Mary Korpov: IS that like a life guard?
    Zon Muhindra: it means i dotn believe in death
    Mary Korpov: Wol, you are uncharacteristically quiet today
    Zon Muhindra: so u have work to do Mary
    Mickorod Renard: I think a typical observation we make is that work and commitments tend to drag us along, yet if we stop for a few seconds, take a good look around and appreciate,,things look a lil diferent
    Mary Korpov: life and death are the same thing
    Wol Euler: sorry, I'm caught up in IMs. I've been online so little lately, people keep calling to say "hello"
    Qt Core: sadly i have to go, have fun ;-)
    Bertram Jacobus: but death is a reality (?)
    Zon Muhindra: depends where u look at it
    Zon Muhindra: little egos die
    Mary Korpov: look at what?
    Zon Muhindra: consciousness doesnt
    Mickorod Renard: maybe death is just a passing on into another realm
    Zon Muhindra: yup
    Mary Korpov: maybe we are all dead and just don't know it
    arabella Ella: life is all we have isnt it ... although death is the only inevitability we should consider life a precious gift
    Mickorod Renard: its an adventure anyway
    Mary Korpov: Why is life a gift? The world largely sucks
    Zon Muhindra: lol
    Wol Euler: what?
    Bertram Jacobus: so many people know so much or believe ... i´m only not knowing ... so much ...
    arabella Ella: let it suck Mary ... thats my opinion it doesnt have to be yours too
    Zon Muhindra: glass is eitehr half empty or half full..depends how u like to look at it
    Mary Korpov: I asked a question to understand your opinion, not to challenge it
    Mary Korpov: Sorry I spoke.
    Mickorod Renard: I have moments when life is strained, but generaly I want to see it through
    Mickorod Renard: yes,, thats a favorite saying for me Zon
    Zon Muhindra: its ok to enjoy feeling pissed off sometimes
    Zon Muhindra: it feels good
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,u need a lil contrast
    Mickorod Renard: I think life should be an adventure
    Zon Muhindra: it is
    Wol Euler: it is
    Wol Euler: snap
    Mickorod Renard: if its boring or bad,,move on
    Zon Muhindra: Mary ?
    Mary Korpov: yes
    Zon Muhindra: good
    Wol Euler: "boring" is a perception, not a reality (IMHO YMMV)
    Mary Korpov: What is good?
    Zon Muhindra: that u agree
    Bertram Jacobus: ymmv ? what´s that please ?
    Mary Korpov: I didn't agree with anything. I was told to shut up, so I am
    Mickorod Renard: true, but you can look for new adventures within ones lifetime
    Zon Muhindra: lol
    Zon Muhindra: lol
    sophia Placebo: what is IMHO YMMV?
    Wol Euler: "your mileage may vary", and mary nobody told you to shut up.
    Wol Euler: "in my humble opinion"
    Bertram Jacobus: imho is in my humble opinion
    Wol Euler: meaning: that's my view of the matter, yours might differ.
    sophia Placebo: ok thanks
    Bertram Jacobus: i´m always a bit irritated about that humble ... :o)
    arabella Ella: :)
    Wol Euler: :)
    Zon Muhindra: "your mileage may vary" ?
    Zon Muhindra: what does that mean
    Wol Euler: it's usually a hollow rhetorical gesture to humility :)
    arabella Ella: 'humble' is an english polite way of expressing that statement Bert
    Mickorod Renard: i GUESS SOME PATHS ARE LONGER, BUT A LONGER PATH MAY BE MORE FUN
    arabella Ella: not to sound too arrogant
    Mickorod Renard: OOPS,,SORRY FOR SHOUTING
    Zon Muhindra: ah goody one
    Wol Euler: zon, it comes from American advertising, where they say "look at our car, it gets 118 miels to the gallon YMMV"
    Bertram Jacobus: in my opinion ? wouldn´t that be enough ? and is humble not here mostly a bit irritating ? ;-)
    Mickorod Renard: miel..isnt that honey in french?
    arabella Ella: it is enough Bert, humble just makes it sound less arrogant and more polite
    Wol Euler: it's just a common expression, don't take it too seriously.
    Bertram Jacobus: yes mick :-)
    Mickorod Renard: ;)
    Mickorod Renard: I would love lots of honeys per mile
    sophia Placebo: hi lila
    Wol Euler: :)
    Lila Sideways: hello all
    Bertram Jacobus: hi lila ... :-)
    Mickorod Renard: are you new to here Lila
    Lila Sideways: very new
    Lila Sideways: this is my first second
    Zon Muhindra: but isndt she lovely
    Mickorod Renard: the chat is logged and pasted on a public wiki Lila
    Lila Sideways: hey, this sounds like a civilized twitter
    Wol Euler: nice damselfly hair, lila :)
    Mickorod Renard: yes, but is it ok if we include your remarks too?
    Mickorod Renard: Lila
    Lila Sideways: sure
    Lila Sideways: but i wont talk
    Mickorod Renard: if not I can edit them
    Mickorod Renard: he he
    Lila Sideways: i listen
    Mary Korpov: good idea
    Zon Muhindra: if we all could listne
    Zon Muhindra: world would be a better opalce
    Mickorod Renard: well, has anyone done anything interesting today?>
    Mickorod Renard: or have some odd thoughts?
    Mary Korpov: I burried a dead squirel in my backyard
    Mickorod Renard: sure it wasnt just sleeping?
    Mary Korpov: No, my dog killed it
    sophia Placebo: i've met a very kind old lady today , really kind , thats something special for today
    Mickorod Renard: it may have been pretending,,as a defence mechanism?
    Wol Euler: that is nice, sophia.
    Mary Korpov: No, dog brought it to the back door as a trophy. It was dead
    Mickorod Renard: thats lovely Sophia
    Mickorod Renard: squirels can be very good actors
    Mary Korpov: Then I burried it alive
    Wol Euler nods. Ah well.
    Mary Korpov: Rocky was a pretty good actor
    Wol Euler: Bullwinkle?
    Mary Korpov: yes
    sophia Placebo: i've met a very dead person too , young lady
    Wol Euler smiles. Wow, that brings back very vague memories :)
    Mickorod Renard: yes? today?
    Mary Korpov: You met a dead young lady? Today?
    sophia Placebo: totally dead spirit
    arabella Ella: say more please sophia
    Wol Euler: poor girl.
    Mary Korpov: Oh spiritually dead
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,I am interested Sophia
    Mary Korpov: I've met a few of those
    Mary Korpov: Can you elaborate?
    sophia Placebo: not much to be said , depressed , sad , unmotivated , negligting her health etc etc
    Mickorod Renard: what sort of age Sophia?
    sophia Placebo: early 30s
    Zon Muhindra: i see dead ppl every day
    Mary Korpov: I don't mean this to be contrary, but just a question. why do we assume that depressed, unmotivated, etc. is bad?
    Mickorod Renard: ohhh,,thats sad, its a good age for having fun
    Zon Muhindra: agrees
    Zon Muhindra: more fun to have fun
    arabella Ella: there is a lot more to life than that of course Mary
    sophia Placebo: bad a s evil or bad as not working ?
    Mickorod Renard: Zon, dead spiritually or otherwise?
    Mary Korpov: than what?
    Zon Muhindra: sleeping
    Zon Muhindra: walking in sleep
    Mary Korpov: That's a good question, Sophia. Maybe we think of it as disfunctional, but I've never been so sure that being depressed is disfunctional--maybe it is defense
    Mary Korpov: I'm never really happy, so perhaps I empathize with the depressed
    arabella Ella: more to life than just being depressed i meant
    Mickorod Renard: but if they are asleep they may be spiritually alive in their thoughts
    Zon Muhindra: well..if u enjoy being depressed ..its ok
    Mary Korpov: yes, they might. Depression might be a kind of intensification
    Zon Muhindra: depression can be rewarding
    Zon Muhindra: u get pity points
    Mickorod Renard: many great artists and writers create stuff when depressed
    Mary Korpov: Happiness and unhappines are flip sides of the same thing
    Wol Euler nods to Zon.
    arabella Ella likes the way of describing 'pity points' ... hmmmm
    Mickorod Renard: maybe the intenseness of feelings is not so bad
    Zon Muhindra: nothing is bad as such
    sophia Placebo: the old lady had her own problems , but thats life no ? i kinda agree that depresion is sort of defence
    Mary Korpov: It might better than the dull sameness of neither unhappiness nor happiness that I experience. I don't know
    sophia Placebo: but some tight guirding may suffocate
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,see ur point Mary
    Zon Muhindra: depression means one is in his/her ego
    Mickorod Renard: I think there is depression and depression
    Mary Korpov: Is there depression about depression?
    Zon Muhindra: sure
    Mickorod Renard: I think those depressed about being depressed may need help
    Mary Korpov: why
    sophia Placebo: im a sad grumpy person and so i'll cry ? guess so
    Mickorod Renard: obviously they are not happy with their depression
    Zon Muhindra: depressin means..me me me me
    Mary Korpov: I agree. Hapiness also means me me me
    Zon Muhindra: no
    arabella Ella: no
    Mary Korpov: yes
    Wol Euler: I disagree.
    Wol Euler: but that's fine too :)
    Zon Muhindra: happiness means yuo yuo yuo
    Mary Korpov: not according to some, Wol
    Mickorod Renard: some depression is a retreat into onesself
    Bertram Jacobus: no. it means to be
    Mary Korpov: What I mean is that the only loss of the me focus is to be detached
    Mary Korpov: Not happy, not unhappy, not angry not sad, not wanting not clinging
    Zon Muhindra: if ur detached of urself..u cant be depressed
    Lila Sideways: one question...are we talking about medical, clinical depression?
    Mary Korpov: right zon
    Zon Muhindra: we agree Mary ???
    Mickorod Renard: I think we would like to be talking about that lila
    Mary Korpov: clinical depression is just created by the medical establishment so that they can sell drugs
    Wol Euler: again, I disagree. I've known people who were deeply depressed, incapacitated by it. That's not just unhappiness.
    Mickorod Renard: its been written recently that most drugs do not work for depressinon
    Mary Korpov: doesn't stop pharm companies from selling them
    Mickorod Renard: yea,,maybe depression is created by the drug companies
    Zon Muhindra: depression has states of course....but the cause IMHO is attachement to ones ego
    Zon Muhindra: like buddha said..
    Zon Muhindra: suffering...
    Zon Muhindra: suffering..
    Mickorod Renard: good point Zon
    sophia Placebo: depression might be like the recession , in ability to handle things when they fall apart
    Mickorod Renard: yes,maybe by the attachment of values to things not relevent
    sophia Placebo: you fall , you broke to pieces , each piece of you is another corner , cant concentrate , cant do things , cant handle your own thoughts
    sophia Placebo: you close your windows and doors , you want to manage your own inner mess
    sophia Placebo: some sucseed , some fail
    Mickorod Renard: yes, comes often to values and ego.or both
    Mickorod Renard: or extreme bad luck
    sophia Placebo: some due to the lenghty course used to the sadness type of awarness of things and attach them selves to it , as part of thier own identity
    Mickorod Renard: but as we all know, many situations can be up lifted by positive thought
    sophia Placebo: easy said :)
    Mickorod Renard: I know
    Mickorod Renard: but one mustnt fall too deep
    sophia Placebo: must not < that is not one of life rules
    Mickorod Renard: maybe it should be a person rule
    sophia Placebo: life rules says that if you dial the wrong number , it is never busy ! ^^
    Wol Euler: that is true.
    sophia Placebo: it is life rule
    sophia Placebo: i must go , bye all
    Bertram Jacobus: bye sophia - what an outfit ! :-)
    Wol Euler: bye sophia, take care.
    Bertram Jacobus: nice
    Mickorod Renard: bye sophia
    sophia Placebo: :)
    Mickorod Renard: go well
    arabella Ella: bye sophia lovely outfit
    Zon Muhindra: must go too, hope i wand rude
    Zon Muhindra: wasnt
    arabella Ella: you were not rude Zon lovely meeting you here tonite
    Mickorod Renard: nice meeting you Zon
    Mickorod Renard: come anytime
    Wol Euler: you were fine, zon. come back any time
    Zon Muhindra: good, nite all :)
    Mickorod Renard: nite
    Bertram Jacobus: bye zon have a good time
    Mickorod Renard: well,,funny evening
    Mickorod Renard: interesting though
    Wol Euler: yeah, quite a mixed bag.