2009.10.06 13:00 - A light session of Death and Depression

    The Guardian for this meeting was Mickorod Renard

    "Life is beauty, admire it.
    Life is bliss, taste it.
    Life is a dream, realize it.
    Life is a challenge, meet it.
    Life is a duty, complete it.
    Life is a game, play it.
    Life is a promise, fulfill it.
    Life is sorrow, overcome it.
    Life is a song, sing it.
    Life is a struggle, accept it.
    Life is a tragedy, confront it.
    Life is an adventure, dare it.
    Life is luck, make it.
    Life is too precious, do not destroy it.
    Life is life, fight for it."

    - Mother Theresa

        Mickorod Renard: I get the idea your mentioning death and suchlike may stir emotions in folk Mary
        Mary Korpov: Why is that?
        Mickorod Renard: well, noone said as much but from my perspective death is usually a 'not mentioned subject' he he
        Mary Korpov: That's stupid. It's going to happen to all of us. Why not talk about it?
        Mickorod Renard: I know, I am with you there, maybe its a good idea to bring it up more often
        Mary Korpov: It seems like there are a lot of Europeans here. Maybe it is cultural. I'm not european.
        Qt Core: what you can say about that, no one can do anything serious about it and nobody knows the topic
        Mickorod Renard: well, I have a history of putting myself in danger, death is something that has never been a concern for me
        Mary Korpov: I've been in a few tight pickles myself.
        Qt Core: i just had once the nearby hospital phoning me asking why i wasn't death or at least in a coma ;-)
        Mickorod Renard: yes, I guess thats true too Qt, we have such little knowledge on what happenes when we are truly dead
        Mary Korpov: We don't have any knowledge of it
        Mickorod Renard: thats odd QT whats that about then?
        Qt Core: about my blood sugar level
        Mary Korpov: usually peopl just call me wishing that I were dead
        Wol Euler: O.O
        Mickorod Renard: ahh,are you diabetic?
        Qt Core: no more, but that was when i discovered i was
        Mickorod Renard: ohh,,so it was treated with medicine rather than insulin?
        Qt Core: yes, and diet, and stopping living in a sugar universe ;-)
        Wol Euler: very tricky that! there's sugar in everything htese days, it seems
        Mickorod Renard: he he , my wife is insulin dependent diabetic
        Qt Core: yes, but in the couple years before that i was really over the top with sugar consumption
        Mary Korpov: So I' curious why death is "not talked about" here
       Mickorod Renard: yea, I know of some of the dificulties
        Wol Euler: one reason might be that we usually talk about observation and experiences, and none of us hs experienced that yet
        Mary Korpov: makes sense
        Mickorod Renard: I wouldnt say its a taboo subject, but I guess its out of character when we look at enhancing our appreciation of life
        Mary Korpov: But we can observe others dying and dead
        Mary Korpov: With that I would disagree. It seems very much in character when thinking about enhancing life
        Mary Korpov: You can't fully ejoy pleasure unless you have fully felt pain
        Qt Core: as a reminder that we must live now or for something else ?
        Mickorod Renard: I am sure your right, it reminds me of a book or program I recently saw,,observing death is very much understanding life too
        Mary Korpov: I think living now is right, but I didn't mean it that way
        Qt Core: (i thought that, Mary)
        Mary Korpov: When I first saw my mother dead, I had a much stronger sense of life
        Mickorod Renard: ohh I remember now, it was the opening chapter or two of Mary Shellys 'Frankenstien'
        sophia Placebo: what brought the death topic if i may ask ?
        Mary Korpov: Mick did
        Mickorod Renard: me
        Qt Core: remembering Mary speaking about suicide
        Mickorod Renard: yes, that was it
        Mary Korpov: Right blame it on me
        Qt Core: ;)
        Mickorod Renard: its natural I would think to find talking about death as a lil sombre
        Mary Korpov: I was just sitting here minding my own business
        sophia Placebo: yes i remmber , she had a point as related to yesterday
        Mary Korpov: What was my point?
        Mickorod Renard: but its poingniant to remind ourselves that we are so entwined with life and death
        Mary Korpov: Death is just as everywhere as life is
        sophia Placebo: i guess you rplayed to would one be himself if he was born in another invironment ,another parents
        Mickorod Renard: I always think its strange how some people go crazy as they get old and start repenting their sins etc,,just in case there is a God
        Mickorod Renard: preparing for death
        Mary Korpov: Believing in a god seems crazy to me in the first place
        Mickorod Renard: Well, many folk choose their beliefs for diferent reasons, but I think basically its about compartmentalising things that cant be understood
        Mary Korpov: Yes, fear of teh unknown
        Mickorod Renard: Hi Zon
        Zon Muhindra: hello
        Mickorod Renard: not nessesarily fear
        Mary Korpov: I think it's fear
        Mickorod Renard: Hi, come and sit with us if u like
        sophia Placebo: hi zon
        Mickorod Renard: Hi, just agve u a notecard
        Zon Muhindra: k, reading....
        Mickorod Renard: the chat log here gets put on a public wiki
        Mickorod Renard: so if you are uncomfortable with that please say and i can doctor it
        Zon Muhindra: k..dont let me disturb..go on..lol
        Mickorod Renard: ok
        Mary Korpov: Maybe god and death are the same thing--just labels to describe things we don't understand
        Mickorod Renard: thers not so much fear as the unexplained
        Mickorod Renard: its handy to put some things in compartments
        Zon Muhindra: god is not death..but life..lol
        Mickorod Renard: yes, for me, but thats not everyones opinion
        Mickorod Renard: Zon is new I think
        Zon Muhindra: yes
        Zon Muhindra: so i might say something wrong but bear with me
        Wol Euler: :)
        Mickorod Renard: Wol, could you give Zon a quick insite to what we do here?
        sophia Placebo: we would bear with you
        Zon Muhindra: :)
        Wol Euler chuckles.
        Mickorod Renard: I am sure there would be nothing that hasnt already been said wrong,,he he
        Wol Euler: ok, the short version. In theory we are a meditation group, we meet to discuss our practices and matters that arise from them
        Zon Muhindra: good..im on right palce then
        Wol Euler: in reality, we often just sit and chat :)
        Mickorod Renard: grin
        Zon Muhindra: even better
        Bertram Jacobus: both fine
        Wol Euler: the practice is a kind of "time tax", in the pure theoretical form we stop to meditate for nine seconds every quarter-hour
        Mickorod Renard: when the fountain goes misty we contemplate for a few seconds
        Mickorod Renard: and dont talk
        Bertram Jacobus: mostly ;-)
        Wol Euler: the idea being to take meditation down from the pedestal of being a special thing to do only at a certain place and time
        Zon Muhindra: mmm..sounds good idea
        Wol Euler: and to make it a part of normal lilfe, a tool available to you at all times and in any place
        Zon Muhindra: agrees heavily
        Mickorod Renard: thanks Wol, I needed reminding myself
        arabella Ella: that's a lovely description Wol for all of us thanks :)
        Wol Euler: :)
        Wol Euler smiles. I'm pleased.
        Bertram Jacobus: i´m too very enlightened by wols explanations ! ... :-)
        Zon Muhindra: to be aware..isnt it ..in all different situations
        Wol Euler: mmhmm
        Bertram Jacobus: hey hoo yak :-)
        Mickorod Renard: we meet here 4 times a day
        Zon Muhindra: hi
        Mickorod Renard: what are your interests Zon, if I may ask?
        Zon Muhindra: why, how, what
        Mickorod Renard: sounds like us
        Zon Muhindra: lol
        Mary Korpov: I'm back. And, Zon, don't let me scare you, but I'm the death lady
        Mickorod Renard: he he
        sophia Placebo: hehe
        Zon Muhindra: whta does that mean
        Wol Euler: we all have our hobbies.
        Bertram Jacobus: re mary :-)
        Zon Muhindra: im exited now
        Mary Korpov: I bring up morbid topics that others don't like...
        Zon Muhindra: i like them
        Mickorod Renard: well, the problem with that is its a dead end subject
        Mary Korpov: Jokes like that will be the death of you, Mick
        Mickorod Renard: silent period
        Mary Korpov: sshhhhhhhhh
        Zon Muhindra: Mary..thats ok..im the life guy
        Mary Korpov: Now you can be loud
        Bertram Jacobus: whaow ! a life guy ! :-)
        Mary Korpov: IS that like a life guard?
        Zon Muhindra: it means i dotn believe in death
        Mary Korpov: Wol, you are uncharacteristically quiet today
        Zon Muhindra: so u have work to do Mary
        Mickorod Renard: I think a typical observation we make is that work and commitments tend to drag us along, yet if we stop for a few seconds, take a good look around and appreciate,,things look a lil diferent
        Mary Korpov: life and death are the same thing
        Wol Euler: sorry, I'm caught up in IMs. I've been online so little lately, people keep calling to say "hello"
        Qt Core: sadly i have to go, have fun ;-)
        Bertram Jacobus: but death is a reality (?)
        Zon Muhindra: depends where u look at it
        Zon Muhindra: little egos die
        Mary Korpov: look at what?
        Zon Muhindra: consciousness doesnt
        Mickorod Renard: maybe death is just a passing on into another realm
        Zon Muhindra: yup
        Mary Korpov: maybe we are all dead and just don't know it
        arabella Ella: life is all we have isnt it ... although death is the only inevitability we should consider life a precious gift
        Mickorod Renard: its an adventure anyway
        Mary Korpov: Why is life a gift? The world largely sucks
        Zon Muhindra: lol
        Wol Euler: what?
        Bertram Jacobus: so many people know so much or believe ... i´m only not knowing ... so much ...
        arabella Ella: let it suck Mary ... thats my opinion it doesnt have to be yours too
        Zon Muhindra: glass is eitehr half empty or half full..depends how u like to look at it
        Mary Korpov: I asked a question to understand your opinion, not to challenge it
        Mary Korpov: Sorry I spoke.
        Mickorod Renard: I have moments when life is strained, but generaly I want to see it through
        Mickorod Renard: yes,, thats a favorite saying for me Zon
        Zon Muhindra: its ok to enjoy feeling pissed off sometimes
        Zon Muhindra: it feels good
        Mickorod Renard: yes,,u need a lil contrast
        Mickorod Renard: I think life should be an adventure
        Zon Muhindra: it is
        Wol Euler: it is
        Wol Euler: snap
        Mickorod Renard: if its boring or bad,,move on
        Zon Muhindra: Mary ?
        Mary Korpov: yes
        Zon Muhindra: good
        Wol Euler: "boring" is a perception, not a reality (IMHO YMMV)
        Mary Korpov: What is good?
        Zon Muhindra: that u agree
        Bertram Jacobus: ymmv ? what´s that please ?
        Mary Korpov: I didn't agree with anything. I was told to shut up, so I am
        Mickorod Renard: true, but you can look for new adventures within ones lifetime
        Zon Muhindra: lol
        Zon Muhindra: lol
        sophia Placebo: what is IMHO YMMV?
        Wol Euler: "your mileage may vary", and mary nobody told you to shut up.
        Wol Euler: "in my humble opinion"
        Bertram Jacobus: imho is in my humble opinion
        Wol Euler: meaning: that's my view of the matter, yours might differ.
        sophia Placebo: ok thanks
        Bertram Jacobus: i´m always a bit irritated about that humble ... :o)
        arabella Ella: :)
        Wol Euler: :)
        Zon Muhindra: "your mileage may vary" ?
        Zon Muhindra: what does that mean
        Wol Euler: it's usually a hollow rhetorical gesture to humility :)
        arabella Ella: 'humble' is an english polite way of expressing that statement Bert
        arabella Ella: not to sound too arrogant
        Mickorod Renard: OOPS,,SORRY FOR SHOUTING
        Zon Muhindra: ah goody one
        Wol Euler: zon, it comes from American advertising, where they say "look at our car, it gets 118 miels to the gallon YMMV"
        Bertram Jacobus: in my opinion ? wouldn´t that be enough ? and is humble not here mostly a bit irritating ? ;-)
        Mickorod Renard: miel..isnt that honey in french?
        arabella Ella: it is enough Bert, humble just makes it sound less arrogant and more polite
        Wol Euler: it's just a common expression, don't take it too seriously.
        Bertram Jacobus: yes mick :-)
        Mickorod Renard: ;)
        Mickorod Renard: I would love lots of honeys per mile
        sophia Placebo: hi lila
        Wol Euler: :)
        Lila Sideways: hello all
        Bertram Jacobus: hi lila ... :-)
        Mickorod Renard: are you new to here Lila
        Lila Sideways: very new
        Lila Sideways: this is my first second
        Zon Muhindra: but isndt she lovely
        Mickorod Renard: the chat is logged and pasted on a public wiki Lila
        Lila Sideways: hey, this sounds like a civilized twitter
        Wol Euler: nice damselfly hair, lila :)
        Mickorod Renard: yes, but is it ok if we include your remarks too?
        Mickorod Renard: Lila
        Lila Sideways: sure
        Lila Sideways: but i wont talk
        Mickorod Renard: if not I can edit them
        Mickorod Renard: he he
        Lila Sideways: i listen
        Mary Korpov: good idea
        Zon Muhindra: if we all could listne
        Zon Muhindra: world would be a better opalce
        Mickorod Renard: well, has anyone done anything interesting today?>
        Mickorod Renard: or have some odd thoughts?
        Mary Korpov: I burried a dead squirel in my backyard
        Mickorod Renard: sure it wasnt just sleeping?
        Mary Korpov: No, my dog killed it
        sophia Placebo: i've met a very kind old lady today , really kind , thats something special for today
        Mickorod Renard: it may have been pretending,,as a defence mechanism?
        Wol Euler: that is nice, sophia.
        Mary Korpov: No, dog brought it to the back door as a trophy. It was dead
        Mickorod Renard: thats lovely Sophia
        Mickorod Renard: squirels can be very good actors
        Mary Korpov: Then I burried it alive
        Wol Euler nods. Ah well.
        Mary Korpov: Rocky was a pretty good actor
        Wol Euler: Bullwinkle?
        Mary Korpov: yes
        sophia Placebo: i've met a very dead person too , young lady
        Wol Euler smiles. Wow, that brings back very vague memories :)
        Mickorod Renard: yes? today?
        Mary Korpov: You met a dead young lady? Today?
        sophia Placebo: totally dead spirit
        arabella Ella: say more please sophia
        Wol Euler: poor girl.
        Mary Korpov: Oh spiritually dead
        Mickorod Renard: yes,,I am interested Sophia
        Mary Korpov: I've met a few of those
        Mary Korpov: Can you elaborate?
        sophia Placebo: not much to be said , depressed , sad , unmotivated , negligting her health etc etc
        Mickorod Renard: what sort of age Sophia?
        sophia Placebo: early 30s
        Zon Muhindra: i see dead ppl every day
        Mary Korpov: I don't mean this to be contrary, but just a question. why do we assume that depressed, unmotivated, etc. is bad?
        Mickorod Renard: ohhh,,thats sad, its a good age for having fun
        Zon Muhindra: agrees
        Zon Muhindra: more fun to have fun
        arabella Ella: there is a lot more to life than that of course Mary
        sophia Placebo: bad a s evil or bad as not working ?
        Mickorod Renard: Zon, dead spiritually or otherwise?
        Mary Korpov: than what?
        Zon Muhindra: sleeping
        Zon Muhindra: walking in sleep
        Mary Korpov: That's a good question, Sophia. Maybe we think of it as disfunctional, but I've never been so sure that being depressed is disfunctional--maybe it is defense
        Mary Korpov: I'm never really happy, so perhaps I empathize with the depressed
        arabella Ella: more to life than just being depressed i meant
        Mickorod Renard: but if they are asleep they may be spiritually alive in their thoughts
        Zon Muhindra: well..if u enjoy being depressed ..its ok
        Mary Korpov: yes, they might. Depression might be a kind of intensification
        Zon Muhindra: depression can be rewarding
        Zon Muhindra: u get pity points
        Mickorod Renard: many great artists and writers create stuff when depressed
        Mary Korpov: Happiness and unhappines are flip sides of the same thing
        Wol Euler nods to Zon.
        arabella Ella likes the way of describing 'pity points' ... hmmmm
        Mickorod Renard: maybe the intenseness of feelings is not so bad
        Zon Muhindra: nothing is bad as such
        sophia Placebo: the old lady had her own problems , but thats life no ? i kinda agree that depresion is sort of defence
        Mary Korpov: It might better than the dull sameness of neither unhappiness nor happiness that I experience. I don't know
        sophia Placebo: but some tight guirding may suffocate
        Mickorod Renard: yes,,see ur point Mary
        Zon Muhindra: depression means one is in his/her ego
        Mickorod Renard: I think there is depression and depression
        Mary Korpov: Is there depression about depression?
        Zon Muhindra: sure
        Mickorod Renard: I think those depressed about being depressed may need help
        Mary Korpov: why
        sophia Placebo: im a sad grumpy person and so i'll cry ? guess so
        Mickorod Renard: obviously they are not happy with their depression
        Zon Muhindra: depressin means..me me me me
        Mary Korpov: I agree. Hapiness also means me me me
        Zon Muhindra: no
        arabella Ella: no
        Mary Korpov: yes
        Wol Euler: I disagree.
        Wol Euler: but that's fine too :)
        Zon Muhindra: happiness means yuo yuo yuo
        Mary Korpov: not according to some, Wol
        Mickorod Renard: some depression is a retreat into onesself
        Bertram Jacobus: no. it means to be
        Mary Korpov: What I mean is that the only loss of the me focus is to be detached
        Mary Korpov: Not happy, not unhappy, not angry not sad, not wanting not clinging
        Zon Muhindra: if ur detached of urself..u cant be depressed
        Lila Sideways: one question...are we talking about medical, clinical depression?
        Mary Korpov: right zon
        Zon Muhindra: we agree Mary ???
        Mickorod Renard: I think we would like to be talking about that lila
        Mary Korpov: clinical depression is just created by the medical establishment so that they can sell drugs
        Wol Euler: again, I disagree. I've known people who were deeply depressed, incapacitated by it. That's not just unhappiness.
        Mickorod Renard: its been written recently that most drugs do not work for depressinon
        Mary Korpov: doesn't stop pharm companies from selling them
        Mickorod Renard: yea,,maybe depression is created by the drug companies
        Zon Muhindra: depression has states of course....but the cause IMHO is attachement to ones ego
        Zon Muhindra: like buddha said..
        Zon Muhindra: suffering...
        Zon Muhindra: suffering..
        Mickorod Renard: good point Zon
        sophia Placebo: depression might be like the recession , in ability to handle things when they fall apart
        Mickorod Renard: yes,maybe by the attachment of values to things not relevent
        sophia Placebo: you fall , you broke to pieces , each piece of you is another corner , cant concentrate , cant do things , cant handle your own thoughts
        sophia Placebo: you close your windows and doors , you want to manage your own inner mess
        sophia Placebo: some sucseed , some fail
        Mickorod Renard: yes, comes often to values and ego.or both
        Mickorod Renard: or extreme bad luck
        sophia Placebo: some due to the lenghty course used to the sadness type of awarness of things and attach them selves to it , as part of thier own identity
        Mickorod Renard: but as we all know, many situations can be up lifted by positive thought
        sophia Placebo: easy said :)
        Mickorod Renard: I know
        Mickorod Renard: but one mustnt fall too deep
        sophia Placebo: must not < that is not one of life rules
        Mickorod Renard: maybe it should be a person rule
        sophia Placebo: life rules says that if you dial the wrong number , it is never busy ! ^^
        Wol Euler: that is true.
        sophia Placebo: it is life rule
        sophia Placebo: i must go , bye all
        Bertram Jacobus: bye sophia - what an outfit ! :-)
        Wol Euler: bye sophia, take care.
        Bertram Jacobus: nice
        Mickorod Renard: bye sophia
        sophia Placebo: :)
        Mickorod Renard: go well
        arabella Ella: bye sophia lovely outfit
        Zon Muhindra: must go too, hope i wand rude
        Zon Muhindra: wasnt
        arabella Ella: you were not rude Zon lovely meeting you here tonite
        Mickorod Renard: nice meeting you Zon
        Mickorod Renard: come anytime
        Wol Euler: you were fine, zon. come back any time
        Zon Muhindra: good, nite all :)
        Mickorod Renard: nite
        Bertram Jacobus: bye zon have a good time
        Mickorod Renard: well,,funny evening
        Mickorod Renard: interesting though
        Wol Euler: yeah, quite a mixed bag.

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