2009.10.14 13:00 - Exhale, Inhale

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Fefonz Quan. The comments are by Fefonz Quan.

    Fefonz Quan: Hey Doug!~
    doug Sosa: hi.
    Fefonz Quan: Hi Pema
    doug Sosa: i can only stay 15, will leave at the bell
    Fefonz Quan: k, np
    Pema Pera: hi Fef and Doug!
    doug Sosa: :)
    Pema Pera: Hi Bert!
    Fefonz Quan: interesting, there's no way i can move to make this smmetrical :)
    Bertram Jacobus: hi all
    Fefonz Quan: Hi Bert! now there is
    doug Sosa: what does symmetry look like in 9 sec?
    Bertram Jacobus: i tried to come as close to symmetry as possible ... ;-)
    Fefonz Quan: like being of course :)
    Pema Pera: Bert, sorry that I dropped out yesterday; my connection was unusually slow . . . right now it's much better
    Pema Pera: how did your conversation go, re: the goal/meaning of PaB ?
    Pema Pera: Hi Yaku!
    Fefonz Quan: Hey Yaku!
    doug Sosa: do we "notice"?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey guys
    Fefonz Quan: now we are symmetrical, and i didn't even move :)
    doug Sosa: then who did?
    Bertram Jacobus: how can i express ? many very unsure ideas. some more concrete. big diversity.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i sat down :)
    Fefonz Quan: no one
    Fefonz Quan: yep Yaku!
    Bertram Jacobus: and hi yaku :-)
    Pema Pera: do you have a particular question or observation you'd like to start with, Bert?
    Wol Euler: hello pema, fef, yak, doug, bert
    Fefonz Quan: Hey Wol!
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hi wol sophia
    Wol Euler: hello sophia
    Pema Pera: Hi Wol!
    sophia Placebo: Hi al
    Bertram Jacobus: yes : i would like to ask, whether arbitraryness could not be dangerous ...
    sophia Placebo: sorry im lagging
    Fefonz Quan: Hi Sophia
    Bertram Jacobus: hi sophia and wol ! :-)
    Fefonz Quan: Nice color Sophia
    Pema Pera: Hi Sophia!
    sophia Placebo: ty
    Pema Pera: Yes, there a fine distinction between openness and arbitrariness
    Fefonz Quan: could you say what you mean by arbitrariness here Bert?
    Pema Pera: PaB tries to be open in what it may mean to "drop what you have to see what you are"
    Pema Pera: but that is not arbritrary at all.
    Bertram Jacobus: yesterday, fef, everybody told some ideas to the topic "what the pab aims could be" - there i had a feeling of such a arbitraryness - hope that sounds not too negative (?) ...
    Fefonz Quan: did you feel the responses were arbitrary or the PaB goals are?
    Pema Pera: (that doesn't sound negative at all, Bert, please be honest in your observations -- and I can perfectly understand that it may seem arbitrary -- it just means that we need to talk more to see whether we can find a pattern, or patterns, in the multiplicity of ideas.)
    Bertram Jacobus: the responses. but (!) : may be also that my very own attitude was and is responsible for my impressions : i avoid may be too often clear definitions, ask instead "could it be?" and similar - although i really mean "it is" - hm - others seem to talk in a similar way ... hm -
    Pema Pera: we can't give a definition of PaB, that would be impossible -- because to give a definition of Being is in principle impossible . . . .
    Pema Pera: yet we can get a sense, and share our senses and experiences and orientations and hesitations, etc . . . and we can even try to be systematic, doing so.
    Bertram Jacobus: heyy bolonath ! :-)
    Pema Pera: Hi Bolo!
    Bolonath Crystal: namaste @ all :)
    Fefonz Quan: Hi Bolonath
    Wol Euler: hello bolo
    Pema Pera: Thank you so much, Bolo, for your email introduction last week, and your description of Advaita Vedanta!
    Bolonath Crystal: yw :)
    Fefonz Quan: (is ther any link to that? i am ashamed to miss it
    Fefonz Quan: )
    Wol Euler: I can forward it to you, fef.
    Pema Pera: We are talking about the possible "goals of PaB" -- and the limitations inherent in defining a goal that involves a notion like Being, a notion beyond concepts. What would you say, for comparison, what is the aim of studying Advaita Vedanta?
    Fefonz Quan: thanks, it'll be very nice.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hi eliza
    Wol Euler: hello eliza
    Pema Pera: Hi Eliza?
    Eliza Madrigal: Hola
    Fefonz Quan: Hey Liza
    Bertram Jacobus: enlightenment ? ...
    Bertram Jacobus: hello eliza ... :-)
    Bolonath Crystal: advaita vedanta means the "teaching of the oneness of all things". so vedantins seek oneness
    Bertram Jacobus: is oneness enlightenment ?
    Bolonath Crystal: i suppose so
    Bertram Jacobus: nice :-)
    Bolonath Crystal: enlightened people are said to see everything as "god"
    Bertram Jacobus: yes
    Bolonath Crystal: god is the undivided - oneness
    Bertram Jacobus: i understand those words
    Fefonz Quan: that sounds like one of the most east-west fusion sentences i'e heard (13:20)
    Bolonath Crystal: :)
    Bolonath Crystal: i luv east-west-fusions :))
    Bertram Jacobus: but then back to the same question in relation to practising pab ? can somebody say a goal in a similar clear way as bolo did it for studying advaita vedanta ?
    Fefonz Quan: To see the nature of reality?
    Pema Pera: to see what you really are
    Bertram Jacobus: is that enlightenment too fef ?
    Bolonath Crystal: this is the same
    Bertram Jacobus: and pema ?
    Fefonz Quan can't say anything intelligent about enlightement.
    Wol Euler wonders how many of us are actually seeking enlightenment as such.
    Pema Pera: well, I personally don't like to use the word enlightenment so much; I respect the way it is used, when it is used in the right way, but most of the time it is used as something to reach for, and can then easily become another lollipop, an example of spiritual materialism
    Wol Euler: hello zen
    Fefonz Quan: /nods , ay to that
    Pema Pera: Eos expressed it very nicely in his email recently -- hi Zen!
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zen :)
    Fefonz Quan: (>Pema)
    Bolonath Crystal: namaste zen
    Bertram Jacobus: then, please : could you say something unintelligent (but may be nearest to intelligent) about enlightenment fef ?
    Eliza Madrigal isn't sure bar-b-que sushi was a good idea (re east/west fusion)
    Fefonz Quan: Hello Zen
    Zen Arado: Hello Everyone
    Eliza Madrigal: (sorry)
    Wol Euler: O.O
    Eliza Madrigal giggles
    Pema Pera: Eos wrote:
    Pema Pera: Suzuki Roshi said something like, "we don't practice in order to attain enlightenment. Because we are already enlightened, we practice." That takes a lifetime because, um, we last a lifetime :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: enlightenment as such ? what does that "as such" mean wol please ?
    Wol Euler: :)
    Fefonz Quan: enlightenment is like the rainbow - the more you chase it, the more it goes away (colorfully) :)
    Eliza Madrigal: A wonderful quote
    Pema Pera listening intently for Wol's insight!
    Wol Euler: "das Ding an sich" so zu sagen
    Wol Euler: sorry to disappoint
    Pema Pera: nein das ist sehr gut!
    Pema Pera: und die Wol an sich!
    Zen Arado: is it gradual or a once and for all thing?
    Pema Pera: we are already enlghtened
    Wol Euler: I personally would accept enlightenment if it happened to arrive, like an unexpected guest, but I am not actually searching for it.
    Fefonz Quan: nicht mecht goontz ver grichen
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Zen Arado: what about 'realization' then?
    Pema Pera: but the waking up to that fact can take any form, spanning the whole spectrum for gradual to sudden
    Pema Pera: and it comes and goes
    Pema Pera: it is not something to put in your pocket
    Zen Arado: ttying to put word onto something indefinable maybe
    Pema Pera: now you see it now you don't
    Pema Pera: but the intervals between seeing will get shorter when you keep practicing, most likely
    Pema Pera: and your seeing deepens
    Pema Pera: but using a label like enlightenment is more likely to hinder than to help
    Zen Arado: yes
    Fefonz Quan: yes, putting a pedestal on a far, diminishing the now
    Zen Arado: how do know if you have it if you don't know what it looks or feels like?
    Pema Pera: yet, if you throw away altogether the intention to see more deeply, you lose too :-) It is a fine balance
    Pema Pera: traditionally, the role of a teacher is to check your insight, Zen -- and the approach of PaB is to see to what extent we can replace the traditional teacher-student role by a community of peers. Using only SL may be tricky and it has to be seen how far that can go. But with the help of RL retreats, we may go further. It is all a wide-open experiment.
    Bertram Jacobus: sorry for the late saying : hi zen ! ... :-)
    Zen Arado: Hi Bertram
    Zen Arado: I have a RL teacher
    Fefonz Quan: ONe thought i do have sometimes about 'enlightenment', is that our view of it is too binary
    Fefonz Quan: we tend to think that 'either you got it, or you don't'
    Pema Pera: but perhaps the best attitude is not to worry at all about whether you have it or got it -- the idea of PaB is to see what happens when you play as if you already have had it, always, and to see what happens then
    Zen Arado: yes
    Wol Euler nods
    Pema Pera: and yes, Zen, it is of course best to combine your existing practice with PaB, which is perfectly possible
    Fefonz Quan: and maybe, each of us encounter thousands of enlightened moments
    Zen Arado: 'just sit'
    Eliza Madrigal: I think the two are be very complimentary zen (pab and traditional teacher)
    Pema Pera: I myself do the same
    Zen Arado: without attaining mind
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye everyone
    Pema Pera: yes, Fef, the challenge is to recognize them -- each moment reality opens more and closes more, for all of us
    Zen Arado: bye Yakuzza
    Bolonath Crystal: bye yak
    Wol Euler: ah, missed him
    Bertram Jacobus: for me that is different fef : it´s a kind of third aspect, above binaryty
    Fefonz Quan: yes, to recognize - but then not to cling to it - that's for me a big challenge
    Bertram Jacobus: and to me it´s that for some people the word can be helpful, for others a hindrance. and it may depend on time and situation as well ...
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Zen Arado: anyone use koans?
    Pema Pera: yes, very much, Bert
    Fefonz Quan: agree BVert
    Wol Euler: if they happen to come up, yes
    Zen Arado: ia koan study a good idea?
    Eliza Madrigal: Why not?
    Pema Pera: I'm using a kind of koans, Zen, but I call them "working hypotheses", like in my work as a scientist -- for me the hypothesis that it makes sense to really "Play as Being" is such a koan, a kind of working hypothesis
    Zen Arado: koans try to dislodge our usual reasoned approach
    Pema Pera: yes, they are a good tool
    Zen Arado: we are so intellectual
    Fefonz Quan: My father told ame a quan when i was a child, but i don't think he or i defined it like that
    Zen Arado: have to try to think our way to ....
    Wol Euler: I wonder about all this wondering about whether X is a good idea. If it works helpfully for you, it's good; if not, not. Whether it helps me or not is irrelevant to you. IMHO YMM
    Zen Arado: I am always trying figure it all out
    Zen Arado: yes
    Wol Euler: *YMMV :)
    Zen Arado: we should just do zazen
    Zen Arado: :)
    Fefonz Quan: any time i asked 'why' about something, he would say: 'because 'why' starts with a 'W" and end with an 'l', like 'rabbit'
    Wol Euler raises an eyebrow
    Pema Pera: was your father chinese?
    Fefonz Quan: not at all :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Zen Arado: or dyslexic :)
    Zen Arado: thats the koan :)
    Zen Arado: ?
    Bertram Jacobus: nice and funny fef :-)
    Fefonz Quan: thanks, i tried to make a fast translation...
    Zen Arado: some of the SL teachers are confusing me lately
    Bertram Jacobus: what is YMMV please ?
    Zen Arado: going to stop going to them
    Wol Euler: "your mileage may vary", i.e. this is what works for me, but it might not work for you.
    Fefonz Quan: Yo Man, Movoe your Vehicle
    Wol Euler: or that :)
    Eliza Madrigal: hahaha
    Pema Pera: the challenge for us may be to share our experiences, more than to just talk about methods to obtain experiences, as Wol also indicated. Shall we do a little exploration during the next 90 seconds brake?
    Bertram Jacobus: and here i disagree wol : Whether it helps me or not is irrelevant to you. ;-)
    Pema Pera: any proposal for a practice to do briefly?
    Wol Euler: ((bert, can we come back to that after the practice?))
    Bolonath Crystal: we might concentrate on the break between ex- and inhaling. that always works fast
    Fefonz Quan: picture the other participant as enlightened?
    Fefonz Quan: ..pans*
    Fefonz Quan: pants*
    Pema Pera: sure, that would be fine, Bolo!
    Bertram Jacobus: ((sure wol)) ! :-)
    Zen Arado: ok
    Pema Pera: let's all do that, and share what we find
    Fefonz Quan go with Bolo too
    Fefonz Quan: was wondering which of the two breaks you meant Bolo
    Bolonath Crystal: it works with both of them, fef
    Fefonz Quan: i went with the literal one
    Bertram Jacobus: thoughts, thoughts, thoughts : i thought about that aspect just the last days and noticed : there is only a bigger break between ex- and inhaling and not between in- and exhaling - is that the same with you ?
    Bolonath Crystal: i prefer the break betwenn ex- and inhaling
    Wol Euler: I nearly sent myself to sleep :)
    Wol Euler: stop that!
    Wol Euler: ((damn these automatic gestures))
    Pema Pera: it was nice to rest in the resting of the breath
    Pema Pera: Nice to meet you, Zon !
    Bolonath Crystal: same with me, bert
    Bertram Jacobus: :-)
    Zen Arado: the break between ex and inhaling has some fear in it for me
    Fefonz Quan: i prefer the one between in-and ex, it seems to last longer and have less urge to inhale :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zon :)
    Zon Muhindra: hi all¨
    Bertram Jacobus: hi zon ! ... :-)
    Bolonath Crystal: hello zon
    Wol Euler: hello zon, nice to see you again
    Zen Arado: Hi Zon
    Fefonz Quan: hello Zon
    Zon Muhindra: what r u talking about
    Bolonath Crystal: breathing meditation, zon
    Eliza Madrigal: That was the first time since this morning I think I've really relaxed... even here I was running to and from the kitchen but wow :)
    Pema Pera: :)
    Bertram Jacobus: the pauses between ex- and inhaling and in- and exhaling ...
    Fefonz Quan: Zon, we are a group that gather together soome time each day, and discuss the nature of reality and of our experience of it
    Bertram Jacobus: i´m very astonished fef (!) - SO different from my experience (!) ... (whaow) ...
    Bolonath Crystal: after exhaling i feel completely free and relaxed. i drop everything, even breath
    Zen Arado: I think an exhale will someday be my last breath :)
    Fefonz Quan: I see youve been here before Zon, sorry for misunderstanding
    Zen Arado: fail to inhale
    Zon Muhindra: np..lol
    Wol Euler: well, yes actually zen, that is pretty much how it works :)
    Zen Arado: hope I have a few left yet :)
    Zen Arado: it is a finite number though
    Fefonz Quan: I Do appreciate also the exx-then in break, it is also a great practice, just a little different for me.
    Zen Arado: inot death meditation now :)
    Pema Pera: it felt nice to compare the resting in the movement and the resting in the stillness between the movements of the breath
    Bertram Jacobus: very interesting too to me fef - because i thought, it would be for everyone that the pause after the exhaling is much longer then the other one ...
    Wol Euler nods
    Zen Arado: it is for m
    Zen Arado: me
    Zon Muhindra: after outbreath..like dying..
    Eliza Madrigal: I've a bit of a habit of holding breath after inhale.. then takes attention to make sure exhale is complete
    Fefonz Quan: i also feel a difference between the inhale resting and the exhale one. exhale tends to feel much more relaxed
    Bertram Jacobus: :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: and i am VERY interested in not to change anything with the natural breathing ... hm -
    Zon Muhindra: after inbreath---fullness
    Wol Euler: doing this reversed my usual pattern of attention, which is why I nearly went to sleep. Usually I note the in-breath when doing exercises, but this made me very are of the exhale.
    Wol Euler: I started following hte breath out :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Wol Euler: *very aware
    Fefonz Quan: the exhale has for me a very strong feeling of release, letting go
    Bolonath Crystal: nods
    Fefonz Quan: \(works great in relaxation practice, like after Yoga class)
    Zen Arado: because you are expelling something
    Zon Muhindra: ego..
    Eliza Madrigal: interesting way you phrased that Pema, re movement/stillness
    Bolonath Crystal: when i practice that for longer, my breath seems to fade out sometimes
    Zen Arado: wish it was so easy :)
    Pema Pera: shall we do it again? [13:43] Bolonath Crystal: we might concentrate on the break between ex- and inhaling. that always works fast
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Wol Euler nods
    Bolonath Crystal: :)
    Bertram Jacobus: yes please
    Zen Arado: sure
    Fefonz Quan: /,e nods
    Zon Muhindra: like expanding in space
    Bolonath Crystal: everyone still in nirvana? *gg*
    Wol Euler: :)
    Fefonz Quan: like expanding the moment
    Bertram Jacobus: not sure ... ;-)
    Wol Euler: bardo, perhaps?
    Zen Arado: hard to determine when the exhale has stopped I noticed
    Fefonz Quan: if it smells like teen spirit Bert ;-)
    Eliza Madrigal: hehe... a bit like "Why do I ever stop doing this?"
    Pema Pera: nice way to enter timeless time :)
    Wol Euler laughs
    Bertram Jacobus: lol okay ty fef :-)
    Zen Arado: it's a kind of exponential decay :)
    Zon Muhindra: decay of ego...
    Fefonz Quan: agree with Zen, so subtle the line is
    Zen Arado: I thought it was abrupt but it is not
    Bertram Jacobus: i think, i´ll leave. appreciated it very much. ty to all. will think about the pab aims further on a bit (was there already an answer?) ... have a nice time all. and may all beings be happy please !
    Wol Euler: 'night bertram, take care
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Bert :)
    Zen Arado: Bye Berttram
    Bolonath Crystal: interesting... how much still can be observed in breathing, even after approximately 3 million breathings
    Bertram Jacobus: ty again
    Bolonath Crystal: nite bert
    Fefonz Quan: Night Bert, thanks for leading us along this issue
    Pema Pera: by Bert!
    Eliza Madrigal: Thanks everyone, this has been delightful... Bye for now :)
    Wol Euler: bye eliza
    Pema Pera: bye Eliza!
    Fefonz Quan: Bye Eliza
    Bolonath Crystal: bye eliza
    Zen Arado: remember reading somewhere about the thousands of things you can notice with the breath
    Zen Arado: bye Eliza
    Bolonath Crystal: yogis use their breath to control prana (energy)
    Zon Muhindra: bye bert and eliza
    Fefonz Quan: like Yoga practitioners too
    Zon Muhindra: breath is the link of mind and body
    Pema Pera: (as an aside to Zon: it is nice to see you here -- I enjoyed reading your discussion about depression, during a session last week)
    Fefonz Quan: (i know it sounds the same, but i refered to the western more physical aspect)
    Bolonath Crystal: *g* i was still thinking about that, fef
    Zon Muhindra: (depression..yes..do u agree?)
    Pema Pera: (Zon defined depression as self-focused and happiness as other-focused, roughly speaking)
    Fefonz Quan: hope i clarified it :)
    Bolonath Crystal: u did :)
    Pema Pera: but of course, when someone is really depressed, it may be very hard to realize the possibility of a switch!
    Pema Pera: it can feel like a vicious circle
    Fefonz Quan: sounds like a very buddhist approach
    Wol Euler: MMHMM
    Zen Arado: yes...they don't want to know sometimes
    Zon Muhindra: yes,,and there might be some execptions..as i was reminded
    Zon Muhindra: by someone
    Pema Pera: "want" is perhaps too strong . . . they don't know that they can know. . . .
    Fefonz Quan: is there a link to that talk Zon?
    Pema Pera: http://playasbeing.wik.is/index.php?...light=muhindra
    Zon Muhindra: dont know ?
    Pema Pera: (toward the end of that session)
    Zon Muhindra: but to me depression is linked to the idea of ur separateness
    Pema Pera: Wol, did that resonate?
    Wol Euler: the caps were accidental, but yes it did.
    Zen Arado: maybe Pema...but ppl can be very attached to the thought pattern that produces it I think
    Fefonz Quan: thanks for the link ema
    Fefonz Quan: P
    Pema Pera: yes, but for a depressed person to be lectured is the most depressing thing . . . .
    Zon Muhindra: yes..
    Wol Euler nods.
    Zon Muhindra: compassion
    Pema Pera: so asking them to breathe may be a perfect first step, for example
    Zon Muhindra: being
    Wol Euler: depression feels like being put into one of those machines that compact cars into shoebox-sized blocks of steel
    Zon Muhindra: yes as breath takes u from ur separateness
    Fefonz Quan: (maybe off topic, but one common saying goes that depressed people are more realistic in their view - idoes it have some truth in it?)
    Zon Muhindra: depends what u mean by reality fefong...if u consider separatness as reality..yes..if oneness...hm..perhaps no
    Pema Pera: (sorry, have to leave, RL calling for dinner . . . good seeing y'all !)
    Bolonath Crystal: not more realistic, fef. maybe more trendy
    Wol Euler: bye pema, bon appetit!
    Bolonath Crystal: nite pema
    Zon Muhindra: bye Oema nice to meet u
    Fefonz Quan: nite Pema
    Pema Pera: merci bien!
    Zon Muhindra: Pema
    Pema Pera: same here Zon!
    Pema Pera: buy Zen, Zon, and ze rest!
    Zen Arado: bye Pema
    Fefonz Quan: as i heard it, more accurate in statistical saying about the world. the normal person seems to have a tendency toward optimism
    Fefonz Quan: (i am not defending this view, i bring it here because it annoys me)
    Zon Muhindra: it also depends on tha amount of sunlight..lol
    Zen Arado: I wonder if more education = more depression
    Bolonath Crystal: yes *smile*
    Zon Muhindra: yes
    Zen Arado: too much thinking
    Wol Euler: agreed, that saying always felt like a fashionable would-be paradox to me, rather proud of itself
    Zon Muhindra: intelect means breaking things
    Zon Muhindra: it enhances separateness
    Zon Muhindra: anakysing
    Zon Muhindra: analysing in parts
    Bolonath Crystal: great. so blessed be the stupid ;)
    Zon Muhindra: no
    Fefonz Quan: yes, sometimes intelect is define as the ability to analyse, take apart, reductionism etc.
    Zen Arado: yes ...its not good when we analyse ourselves too much
    Zen Arado: :)
    Zon Muhindra: but after analysing.. put it all together
    Bolonath Crystal: intellect can also help in graspimg the oneness
    Fefonz Quan: and than you are always left with some screws :)
    Zen Arado: it says that in a book I read on mindfulness
    Zen Arado: negative rumination is a downward spiral
    Fefonz Quan: I will have to go friends, Good night!
    Wol Euler: 'night fef, take care
    Zen Arado: you need to be present instead
    Bolonath Crystal: nite fef
    Zen Arado: bye Fef
    Fefonz Quan: It has been a pleasure, but tomorrow is a working day...
    Zon Muhindra: me 2, nice talking with u, bye all
    Fefonz Quan: _/!\_
    Bolonath Crystal: i'm off, too
    Zen Arado: guess I'll go too then
    Bolonath Crystal: nite all, om shanti
    Wol Euler: goodngiht bolo, zon, take care
    Wol Euler: bye zen
    Wol Euler: bye me!
    Zen Arado: bye all
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