2009.10.16 13:00 - Theme session:Practice as debugging

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Yakuzza Lethecus. The comments are by Yakuzza Lethecus.

    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey qt,pema
    Qt Core: hi Yak, Pema
    Pema Pera: Hi Qt, Yaku!
    Pema Pera: oh hi Vendy, how nice to see you again!
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hello vendy
    Pema Pera: How's life, Vendy?
    Vendy Walpole: Hello everyone :)
    Qt Core: hi Vendy
    Vendy Walpole: Life? hm
    Vendy Walpole: up and down I think :)
    Vendy Walpole: more up, no worries
    Vendy Walpole: haha
    Pema Pera: :)
    Pema Pera: you have to move down, often, in order to move up :)
    Vendy Walpole: yes, and there we have to learn something, when we are down, right?
    Pema Pera: yes, at every step along the way
    Vendy Walpole: otherwise, it would be real tragedy ...grins
    Pema Pera: and each step is interesting, like a step in a dance
    Vendy Walpole: true
    Wol Euler: hello everyone
    Qt Core: hi wol
    Pema Pera: Hi Wol!
    Vendy Walpole: just need time to see the value
    Pema Pera: actually, Vendy, we'll talk about a kind of dancing today
    Pema Pera: only we call it "debugging"
    Pema Pera: like in debugging computer programs
    Pema Pera: I don't know whether you have heard of that word
    Qt Core: remind me dthe dance of the matador around the bull ;-)
    Vendy Walpole: debugging..I know it
    Pema Pera: hehehe, only a bit less dangerous
    Vendy Walpole: bug and no bug
    Pema Pera: bugs are much smaller than bulls
    Wol Euler has just got home from work and is still a little discombobulated.
    Pema Pera: compared to grabbing a bull by the horns, grabbing a bug by the antennae is far safer
    Pema Pera: well, Wol, why don't I start then:
    Vendy Walpole: they can escape easier cause they are smaller?
    Vendy Walpole: :)
    Qt Core: started reading that as decompiled (i didn;t get out of work mindset, be warned)
    Pema Pera: yes, true, Vendy :_)
    Pema Pera: hehe, Qt
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hi wol
    Wol Euler: hello yaku
    Pema Pera: first of all, "debugging" is a term using by computer programmers
    Vendy Walpole nods
    Pema Pera: when you write a computer code, almost always it doesn't do what you want it to do
    Pema Pera: in fact, in most cases it doesn't do anything at all
    Pema Pera: you run it and it crashes
    Pema Pera: and you wonder why
    Pema Pera: Hi Zen!
    Vendy Walpole: spunds like life itself...sometimes
    Qt Core: at first run i winder if it does not
    Pema Pera: Now the art of debugging is to find out what is wrong in such a case
    Vendy Walpole: sounds
    Pema Pera: where the "bug" is
    Zen Arado: Hi everyone
    Vendy Walpole: Hi
    Wol Euler: hello zen
    Pema Pera: a "bug" being slang for something wrong somewhere
    Pema Pera: Wol and I both agree that practice in particular, and life in general, have much in common with debugging -- in all three cases, the challenge is not so much to get something newer and bigger and better, but just to improve what you already have, to the point of finally making it run smoothly
    Pema Pera: would you agree, Wol?
    Pema Pera: Hi Zon!
    Zen Arado: Hi Zon :)
    Wol Euler: hello again zon
    Wol Euler: yes indeed, pema
    Qt Core: wouldn't that being optimization ?
    Wol Euler grins
    Wol Euler: at a later stage, sure.
    Qt Core: but that would mean we start from something functioning
    Wol Euler: it is part of the same process though.
    Pema Pera: yes, but premature optimization is the root of all evil -- according to a famous programming guru
    Pema Pera: and I agree
    Pema Pera: before optimizing, better make sure you debug
    Wol Euler: you can see a parallel to practice there too: even when it is apparently working "perfectly well", there is still room and need for improvement
    Zen Arado: not sure about continual self-improvement though
    Pema Pera: after optimizing it is far harder
    Qt Core: (if i detour the discussion to technical about programs and not thoughts hit me with a stick, ok)
    Wol Euler: :)
    Zen Arado: why can't we be happy with the way we are?
    Wol Euler: "42"
    Pema Pera: (will do, Qt, a translation stick :)
    Vendy Walpole: how can someone be sure it is optimized if for someone else it is not yet..each has defferent expectations of the programme
    Vendy Walpole: so, it can never be "done" well enough
    Vendy Walpole: for all
    Pema Pera: well, Zen, we make mistakes, every day, every minutes, and it would be nice to really learn from our mistakes, to find the underlying mistaken orientation
    Wol Euler: what happens usually is that it reaches a point where most people are mostly satisfied, and remains there
    Qt Core: like monnalisa, Leonardo was never sure it was finished adding a stroke each day
    Pema Pera: and yes, Vendy, that's a great question -- and friends can help there!
    Zen Arado: but matbe that takes us farter away?
    Vendy Walpole: true
    Pema Pera: yes, Wol !
    Wol Euler: just as (to zen) there are people who arrive at a state which pleases them, and remain there.
    Wol Euler: others say to themselves what Vendy's users were saying to the programmer: "there's room to improve this bit"
    Zen Arado: there ia a kind of restless striving we get into
    Pema Pera: oh sure, Zen, only the best programmers can zoom in straightaway on bugs, most of us have to beat around the bush for a long time BUT if we don't give up, we generally get there
    Zen Arado: not sure the analogy with life works
    Wol Euler: let's try it and see :)
    Vendy Walpole: why not?
    Zen Arado: life projects are necessarily goal oriented
    Zon Muhindra: nods to zen, its not very zen ?
    Qt Core: in the past 15 years i discovered that bugs are quite tied to the personality/ability of the programmers
    Pema Pera: yes, Zen, but that's not what Wol and I mean -- not striving for improvement, for getting the next spiritual goody, but rather to try to find out how everything may be perfect already and how come that we can't usually see it
    Zon Muhindra: ah,,yes
    Wol Euler: one of the most important and most difficult skills of debugging is to see what the progrm is actually doing,
    Wol Euler: not what you think it ought to be doing.
    Wol Euler: the parallel to "stopping and dropping" is clear :)
    Vendy Walpole: how do you know that what you have done is really finished and optimized? Don't you need time to test it?
    Pema Pera: Zen, I could describe Zen as debugging, whether working with a koan as in Rinzai zen, or doing shikantaza, just sitting, as in Soto zen: in both cases you try, and then you notice what holds you back, at ever finer and finer and finer levels. It is misleading to say "just sit" and that's it -- that would create zombies. While you "just sit" you are also keenly aware and engaged and you are sheddning more and more.
    Pema Pera: yes, Wol, very much so!!!
    Zen Arado: interesting Pema
    Pema Pera: you use your life time testing, Vendy, every minute, till you die :)
    Wol Euler nods
    Vendy Walpole: yes
    Zen Arado: but isn't there the danger of always trying to figure things out intellectually?
    Pema Pera: yes, indeed
    Vendy Walpole: Believe Leonardo would change Mona Lise even today
    Zen Arado: to me that is waht koans try to defeat
    Vendy Walpole: Lisa*
    Wol Euler: actually, in my experience debugging is often very un-intellectual, very much based in pure observation and experiment
    Qt Core: and when in deep concerntration to find a bug, trying to get how the pc is thinking it is easy to be distracted and starting watching your internal pc with the same eyes
    Pema Pera: so for people reaching for goodies: the antidote is "just sit" -- and when people then tend to become zombies, the next antidote is "try to really see what it is that is preventing you from "just sitting" -- that's the debugging stage
    Wol Euler: being able to set aside what you know about the program and the task, and pretend to be an absolute beginner, a child
    Wol Euler: and look with open eyes at what actually happens
    Pema Pera: yes, Vendy, there is that danger too :)
    Vendy Walpole: to forget the knowledge, that is hard but useful
    Pema Pera: yes & yes & yes! :)
    Vendy Walpole: it can mislead us
    Wol Euler: in that sense, I agree with Zen: knowledge (intellect) can get in the way
    Wol Euler: hello ara
    Qt Core: (and pride too, wol)
    arabella Ella: Hiya
    Qt Core: hi ara
    Pema Pera: yes, I know people who are extremely intelligent but lousy debuggers
    Wol Euler: oh yes! "the problem is in your part of the code, mine works perfectly"
    Pema Pera: and the other way around, in fact -- a different kind of intelligence
    arabella Ella: Hiya
    Pema Pera: hehehe, Wol
    Pema Pera: Hi Arabella!
    Zen Arado: but isn't it ego that wants to undHi Ara
    Zen Arado: to understand everything/
    Pema Pera: so we have to debug the parts of our life where the ego wants to step in
    Zen Arado: Zon and I were just at a meeting where the teacher was saying that
    Pema Pera: what sometimes is called spiritual materialism
    Zon Muhindra: ego wants to strive..to achieve
    Qt Core: so, how to debug our life/mind... post mortem or in vivo ? ;-)
    Zen Arado: yes but there is something else there too
    Vendy Walpole: we need to watch with heart?
    Zen Arado: I think
    Pema Pera: I'd start in this life, Qt :)
    Vendy Walpole: not mind
    Pema Pera: yes, Vendy, using all our faculties including intuition
    Zen Arado: intellectual ppl have difficulty dropping that questioning mind
    Zon Muhindra: but i understand that so that u just watch what rises...
    Zon Muhindra: not striving or contoling
    Pema Pera: yes, you try that and you faill after seconds or perhaps minutes . . .
    Pema Pera: . . . and then the debugging starts
    Pema Pera: why did you fail?
    Zen Arado: its like searchng for something you already have
    Qt Core: strange, i think a metamind, even more intellectual that the everyday one is needed for debugging programs and life
    Pema Pera: how to improve your engagement?
    Zen Arado: gets you farther from it
    Pema Pera: yes, Zen, but let's go really slowly
    Zon Muhindra: to be more here and now
    Pema Pera: we all know the ideas
    Pema Pera: but how to do the practice?
    Zon Muhindra: not get away with thoughts
    Pema Pera: we all know "just to be with what is" as a nice sentence
    Zen Arado: I don't know how to put it into words
    Pema Pera: but what happens when you do that?
    Pema Pera: you fail, right? we all do, each time, right?
    Pema Pera: then what?
    Zon Muhindra: hm fail ?
    Zen Arado: how do you know you fail?
    Zon Muhindra: how
    Zon Muhindra: so
    Zen Arado: what were you expecting?
    Pema Pera: whatever practice we do, staying with the breath, going into a koan, just sitting
    Zon Muhindra: u fail if u expect sothing
    Pema Pera: we fail very quickly, getting distracted
    arabella Ella nods
    Zen Arado: why is that failure?
    Pema Pera: if you call that distraction okay, because everything is okay, that would be a great mistake, I think . . . .
    Zen Arado: the brain will always produce thoughts
    Pema Pera: at least if you take that as a sign to either give up, or to keep on slugging in a dull way
    Pema Pera: I think that is a mistaken interpretation of zen
    Zon Muhindra: so how to prolong that state of awareness ?
    Pema Pera: but I'd like to hear if you disagree, of course!
    Wol Euler: that's where debugging comes in, zon. finding the reason you cannot stay in that state
    Zen Arado: mistaken interpretation?
    Pema Pera: well, trying to prolong would be like grasping for results, which isn't ideal either, Zon
    Pema Pera: yes, Wol
    Pema Pera: So I agree with all that Zen says against grasping and striving for results, but debugging is exactly not that
    Pema Pera: nor is it "just sitting" in a stupor . . .
    Pema Pera: it is highly intelligent and engaged
    Zen Arado: I know nothing about debugging so ...
    Zon Muhindra: neither do i
    Vendy Walpole: neither do I but get the point I hope
    Zen Arado: it is being alert and mindful
    Qt Core: just think about try do discover why a car don't run
    Zon Muhindra: that means something is wrong and i try to fix it..i have a goal...dont quit get the idea ?
    Pema Pera: well, we can drop the metaphor, but let us go really slowly into the question of "what does it mean not to grasp for spiritual goodies" -- does that mean "all is okay, so there is nothing to do, I can just sit and accept everything as is"? Is it that simple? Can we just congratulate us as we are, warts and all? That would be the kind of game that the ego would LOVE to play . . . but that wouldn't be zen
    Pema Pera: Wol, I've spoken too much already, do you want to answer Zon's question?
    Wol Euler smiles. I'm learning too, enjoying listen ing to you.
    Wol Euler: but I'll try.
    arabella Ella: sounds a bit like the concept of 'continuous improvement' in organisations Pema
    arabella Ella: but at an individual personal level
    arabella Ella: feedback feedforward loop
    Pema Pera: no, it's the opposite, Arabella
    arabella Ella: ah
    Pema Pera: this will take some time to unpack, we have to go slowly . . . . I'll wait for Wol :)
    Zon Muhindra: i understand zen so..that u r content and act
    Wol Euler: ok
    Wol Euler: there is goal-orientated fixing, sure, the car is an example of that.
    Zon Muhindra: nods
    Wol Euler: much of life though is state-oriented, not goal. "Why am I unhappy today" isn't about fixing a single goal
    Wol Euler: it's about discovering something basic about my state of being
    Zon Muhindra: nods
    Wol Euler: that is one of the points at which the debugging exercise of pretending you know nothing about the program is relevant to life
    Wol Euler: where you try to ignore all that you think that you know -- becase your knowledge clearly isn't complete or sufficiennt
    Wol Euler: else there would be no bug, and you would be happy :)
    Zon Muhindra: nods
    Pema Pera: willing to go back to strongly held presumptions, and willing to re-re-re-examine them, yes Wol
    Wol Euler: you try to ignore what you know and just look step by step at what is really happening
    Stargate Tone: _/!\_ all
    Wol Euler: right, the willingness to back away and say "what I thought about this is clearly not true"
    Wol Euler: hello star
    Qt Core: hi Stargate
    Zon Muhindra: yes..watching actively..
    Pema Pera: hi * and Ludwig!
    Wol Euler: oh yes, very active :)
    Pema Pera: yes
    ludwig Melodie: hi all
    Vendy Walpole: that confirms that grasping the goals firmly can be very wrong
    Wol Euler: which is why pema keeps contrasting it whith just sitting still and eating bonbons on the sofa
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hello ludwig
    Vendy Walpole: cause they are not fixed ever
    Zen Arado: Hi Star
    Zon Muhindra: begiingin to see...
    Zen Arado: good article on tricycle today: http://www.tricycle.com/blog/?p=1583
    Wol Euler: hello ludwig
    Zen Arado: about this
    Zen Arado: but it refers to sitting
    Stargate Tone: (loves bonbons too)
    Pema Pera: like putting all the pieces of the puzzle on the table, and then watching intently -- it has elements of a koan and elements of just sitting, it's both really
    Wol Euler: yes, vendy.
    Vendy Walpole: even the best programmer does not know what he will get at the end I am sure somehow
    Pema Pera: it's always in the last place you looked :)
    Stargate Tone: _/!\_
    Zen Arado: i'm still not sure this analogy with what is a practical task is helpful
    Wol Euler: yes, vendy (not to call myself a good programmer) it is always a learning experience
    Wol Euler: it
    Zon Muhindra: so..u watch..u dont strive for a specific answer..u let things appear ..and u get it ?
    Pema Pera: well, let us take a specific situation, shall we?
    Pema Pera: and very slowly describe it and see where debugging comes in
    Zen Arado: it is different to life in general or zen practice except that we do it mindfully and completely?
    Wol Euler: pretty much so, zon :) sooner or later you see the knot in the string
    Pema Pera: shall we take zen meditation as an example?
    Pema Pera: Zen or Zon or someone: would you like to pick a particular type of zen meditation?
    Pema Pera: and then we can slowly see whether the analogy of debugging can be helpful there
    Zen Arado: "Just sitting means just that. That “just” endlessly goes against the grain of our need to fix, transform, and improve ourselves. The paradox of our practice is that the most effective way of transformation is to leave ourselves alone. The more we let everything be just what it is, the more we relax into an open, attentive awareness of one moment after another. Just sitting leaves everything just as it is.
    Zen Arado: that's an excerpt that shows waht I mean
    Pema Pera: yes, but that is general advice, shall we pick a specific situation?
    Zen Arado: that is a specific situation?
    Zen Arado: of meditation
    Pema Pera: (for someone striving too much, that is good advice; for someone sitting too much like a robot, that would be bad advice, in fact)
    Pema Pera: yes
    Zon Muhindra: hm..so it depends on the mind in question
    Pema Pera: let's pick a very specific situation, of starting to sit in meditation; would you like to choose a type?
    Zen Arado: explain 'like a robot
    Pema Pera: okay, Zen
    Stargate Tone: can something be experienced completely in medtative pharase ?
    Pema Pera: if someone is interpreting "just sitting" in a way like becoming frozen
    Zen Arado: nobody can I suspect
    Zen Arado: the brain never stops
    Pema Pera: and then you say to that person "leave everything as it is" that person is likely to become more frozen, so that would be bad advice *for that person*
    Zen Arado: experienced meditators told me that
    Pema Pera: no paragraph can be good advice for anybody in any situation -- it would be nice to have a formula to give, the universal formula, but that is impossible, Zen
    Zen Arado: but if you meditate you have a way fo prcticing
    Pema Pera: but shall we pick a specific example?
    Zen Arado: either by keeping coming back to the breath or shikantaza
    Pema Pera: otherwise we can philosophize for the rest of our life
    Zen Arado: usinf a focus
    Stargate Tone: can somebody be alone in meditative phrase ?
    Qt Core: The more we let everything be just what it is= let the program run and attentive awareness of one moment after another.=just see what the program does, not what it should do, debugging as i know it
    Zon Muhindra: to me it seems debugging Pema talks about is same as mindfulness Zen talks about ?
    Wol Euler nods
    Pema Pera: shall we test our opinions in a specific case?
    Wol Euler: that is the parallel we wanted to discuss. (to see whether it did in fact exist)
    Qt Core: mindfulness about another artificial mind maybe
    Vendy Walpole: could you suggest the case Pema to test it?
    Pema Pera: I mentioned meditation as an example
    Pema Pera: but we have to be very specific
    Pema Pera: does anyone like to suggest a specific case?
    Zen Arado: why?
    Stargate Tone: artificial
    Zon Muhindra: Pema could u suggest, as
    Zon Muhindra: its hard to follow
    Zen Arado: why not just be open and receptive and waiyt and see what happens?
    Pema Pera: one example would be to "just sit" as in shikantaza, the Soto zen practice
    Zen Arado: yes..is that a specific case?
    Zen Arado: that is what I was describing though not very well
    Pema Pera: yes, it is a specific case of meditation, there are very many different ways of meditation
    Pema Pera: so let us go slowly, line by line as a programmer would say, okay?
    Zen Arado: but basically is is all the same too
    Zen Arado: a very analytic approach
    Pema Pera: zen, if you conclude that you know already everything there is to know about meditation, that is the exact opposite of debugging, as Wol said
    Zen Arado: to something that might be unalysable?
    Pema Pera: you don't even give us a chance to get started
    Zen Arado: sorry
    Zon Muhindra: Pema. guide as line by line , please
    Pema Pera: so I start trying to "just sit"
    arabella Ella is eager to listen
    Pema Pera: at first, it is hard, I am very distracted
    Pema Pera: many many thoughts, wishes, memories, you name it
    Pema Pera: and paradoxically the more I sit, the more my mind becomes calmer, at the same time, the wilder it seems to get
    Pema Pera: because I learn to become more sensitive
    Pema Pera: yet I fell increased well being
    Pema Pera: and over the weeks, months, years, I learn to become more calm and integrated
    Pema Pera: YET
    Pema Pera: what often happens then is that you get into a rut
    Stargate Tone: integrated
    Pema Pera: you get very good at "just sitting" like your fellow meditators
    Zon Muhindra: we get stuck ?
    Pema Pera: and for decades you can infact get stuck into a sense of basic well being that can get quite dull
    Vendy Walpole: no progress?
    Stargate Tone: integrated
    Zon Muhindra: nods
    Pema Pera: progress is a tricky word here
    Pema Pera: give me just a couple minutes to describe more precisely, sorry
    Zon Muhindra: opening...
    Zon Muhindra: enfolding..
    Pema Pera: so you sit and sit and sit . . . and at some point you wonder whether "just sitting" is nothing more than to sit and sit and sit
    Pema Pera: and when you really stay engaged, and really give all you have and really try to drop all you have then sooner or later you begin to notice all kind of small or big things that were holding you back
    Pema Pera: all kind of subtle ways in which the ego is playing for example
    Pema Pera: you notice how the ego is parotting the holy words that you have read and heard from teachers
    Pema Pera: and you notice more and more how incredibly complex the presumptions are that you operate with in your life
    Pema Pera: and you realize more and more that the challenge is not to reach or gain anything,but rather to step bac
    Pema Pera: back
    Pema Pera: further and further and further
    Pema Pera: giving up more and more and more of the assumptions you had, tacitlly
    Pema Pera: sorry to take a long time, but I just wanted to sketch in some detail one very specific kind of meditation practice, and the sort of things that can happen with that, over the years, as an example of what Wol and I tried to say earlier about debugging
    Pema Pera: Wol do you see this as a valid example of debugging, the way you understand it?
    Wol Euler: debugging is usually simpler and shorter process, but yes :)
    Zon Muhindra: nods..to me like mindfulness
    Wol Euler: the essence is clearing out wrong ideas - mindfulness, yes
    Pema Pera: so if we can now bring our questions to bear on this very specific example, it is more likely that we will learn to undestand the different ways in which we may use simiilar sounding words
    Zon Muhindra: yes..sounds very zen to me..the way u put it Pema
    Pema Pera: yes, Zon, but mindfulness as such is a nice word, and we would like to know how to cultivate and apply it, in practice -- that's why Wol and I think "debugging" is a bit more precise than just the general "mindfulness" -- it's mindfulness as actively being passive, in some sense: keenly watching, dropping expectations while turning up the heat in some cool way :-)
    Pema Pera: (in reply to your penultimate sentence, sorry)
    ludwig Melodie: doit on etre assis pour mediter ? en marchant cela est possible
    Pema Pera: non, Ludwig :)
    Pema Pera: et oui!
    Stargate Tone: or washing dishes
    Pema Pera: yes
    ludwig Melodie: si je pratique en marchant
    Pema Pera: oui
    ludwig Melodie: et me vas bien
    Zon Muhindra: i practice working
    ludwig Melodie: mon esprit medite pas mes jambes
    Stargate Tone: _/!\_
    Pema Pera: but sitting can be more intense, sitting sometimes will help make a balance with more active work
    Zen Arado: why is it that if you are really interested in a task you stay focussed easily
    Zen Arado: you don't have to keep bring your mind back
    ludwig Melodie: pas d' accord avec vous ,pema
    Qt Core: usually others have to bring you back ;-)
    Zen Arado: :)
    ludwig Melodie: je medite en marchand en promenant le chien
    Stargate Tone: pls notice Pema's words 'can be'
    ludwig Melodie: mauvaise traduction
    Stargate Tone: _/!\_
    Wol Euler grins
    Wol Euler: that would be visualization :)
    ludwig Melodie: meditation en promenant le chien est posssible
    Pema Pera: we can all choose for our selves, Ludwig, and experiment. I personally feel that if I sit for at least half an hour a day, I can be more engaged while walking and talking -- but that is just my experience
    Stargate Tone: _/!\_
    Pema Pera: yours may be different
    Stargate Tone: one can be singing in front of big audience and meditate
    arabella Ella: so Pema am i anticipating if i ask ... what happens after we then drop our assumptions?
    Stargate Tone: but ...truly ; can one be alone in meditative phrase ?
    Pema Pera: why don't you try and see, Arabella :-)
    Qt Core: keyword is see here ;-)
    arabella Ella: :)
    Pema Pera: any assumption you may have about what it is to drop assumption will load you with an extra assumption
    Pema Pera: I mean that seriously
    Pema Pera: it will hinder you
    Wol Euler nods
    arabella Ella: yes
    Zon Muhindra: Star, i think meditation is to be alone..all one
    Pema Pera: what we can share here are approaches, not answers
    Pema Pera: we can't give others our answers, but we can stimulate and inspire them to follow new approaches
    Stargate Tone: sry Pema
    Qt Core: that assumption phrase make me think about an issue when i debug my mind, i can fall in a loop of debugging the debugger
    Zen Arado: I just feel slightly uncomfortable with using a highly structures analytic framework to zen. It is obviously very successful in other disciplines but can izen be fitted into this framework?
    Wol Euler: :)
    Stargate Tone: _/!\_
    Pema Pera: hehehe, Qt
    Zen Arado: thats all I can say but I am not expressing it very well
    Pema Pera: it's not analytic, Zen, what I tried to describe, I'm sorry if I was not clear enough -- it's the opposite, the exact opposite of analytic
    Pema Pera: it's keenly watching
    Wol Euler: right
    Pema Pera: analytic is using what you (think you) know
    Pema Pera: all your tools
    Pema Pera: all your tricks of the trade
    Pema Pera: debugging is letting go of all of that
    Wol Euler: the important part of debugging, the part that brings the results, is exactly NOT analyzing but just seeing
    Zen Arado: maybe it was the way you explainrd it then
    Zon Muhindra: i think Pema is trying to explain in words what zen is as an experience
    Zon Muhindra: and words cant ever describe it well
    Pema Pera: or how to get into it, yes, Zon
    Zen Arado: yes I appreciate the explanation and it was very good
    Pema Pera: approach, not answer
    Zen Arado: our minds work in different ways
    Vendy Walpole: to find the bug you should be dettached but keep awareness and see all possible appraoches in that way, can we say so?
    Zen Arado: we approach zen from different backgrounds
    Vendy Walpole: (sorry for spelling)
    Wol Euler: detached in the sense of avoiding expectations. yes
    Zen Arado: probably they are all just as valid
    Pema Pera: yes, Vendy!
    ludwig Melodie: vous souhaite une bonne soirée a vous tous
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye ludwig
    Pema Pera: bye Ludwig!
    Wol Euler: bonsoir, ludwig
    Zen Arado: bye Ludwig
    Vendy Walpole: Bye
    arabella Ella: bonne nuit Ludwig
    Zen Arado: our own presonalies and work experience condition us to think in certain ways ?
    Wol Euler: sure :)
    Wol Euler: stepping aside from that is the work of meditation, or of stopping and dropping in PaB terms
    Zon Muhindra: i think the main point of Pema was,,not just sit and be lazy and hypnotised but sit and be actively watching what really happens in u ?
    Wol Euler: yes, I agree. that is the meaning of the word "just" in the sentence Zen quoted at teh beginning.
    arabella Ella: or ... it is so easy to get stuck in the rut of complacency
    Zen Arado: yes...but everyone who has had any meditation instruction knows that - though we don't always adhere to it ?
    Pema Pera: yes, and then dropping what you thought was "very good watching" since that too became ego infested
    Pema Pera: and so on
    Pema Pera: (to Zon)
    Wol Euler: if knowing were enough, why do we not adhere to it?
    Zen Arado: if you have a teacher they would point this out to you at interviews
    Zen Arado: that is why a teacher is necessary?
    Qt Core: i see that especially when you get angry about being unable to debug your own code (angry and pride, bad combo) call someone else and he/she bang find the error in seconds
    Wol Euler: yes! happens so often!
    Pema Pera: anything we discover we put up in our memory banks, it gets taken over by the ego, so we have to drop it and look anew -- that's where the debugging comes in. The "bugs" are the moths of the ego eating the clothes of our wonderful meditative accomplishments :)
    Wol Euler: parallel to Zen's teacher making comments
    Pema Pera: yes, Zen, exactly, a teacher can help you debug
    Pema Pera: and Qt
    Zen Arado: I am an artist trying to change to painting abstractly
    Zen Arado: trying to be more imaginative and creative
    Zen Arado: and intuitive
    Zen Arado: so do you see how my background is different?
    Qt Core: i fear that trying in that phrase it seem you are pushing and not "just" changing
    Wol Euler: I can see parallels too though.
    Zen Arado: I am trying to get away from careful planning and analysing
    Wol Euler: how do you know that your paintings are not imaginative enough?
    Zen Arado: I just know :)
    Wol Euler: how do you know whether they are good? how do you find a place or a method to improve?
    Zen Arado: exactly
    Wol Euler: really? do you really know without looking?
    Zen Arado: I don't know any answers to those questions
    Zen Arado: if there are any
    Vendy Walpole: you can never know definetly
    Wol Euler: I know several artists, most of them resist looking at their own working methods, for fear of corrupting or ruining their tools :)
    Wol Euler: for myself, and I think it would apply to you too, when I am working on something my instinct is to say that it is good and right.
    Zen Arado: it's about trying to gain a kind of freedom of expression
    Wol Euler: once it is done, I can step aside from the ego that made it, and try to see it through the eyes of someone else.
    Zen Arado: yes sometimes a ppainting feels right
    Zen Arado: but I could not say why
    Wol Euler: and that person can find weaknesses and problems and ideas that were not fully expressed, where "I" thought it was good
    Qt Core: a leaving thought as i have to go... after the announcement about this session i had quite an epiphany about my way to see my mind as meny levels and metalevels, i translated it in technical terms.. and got this image of a huge server full of virtual machines watching each others
    Wol Euler: :)
    Wol Euler: a good image
    arabella Ella: lovely image Qt
    arabella Ella: :)
    Zon Muhindra: this was very stimulating dicussion..ty all..gtg to sleep
    Zen Arado: a superbrain is on its way :)
    Zon Muhindra: nite all
    Pema Pera: yes, Qt!
    Zen Arado: night Zon
    Wol Euler: goodngiht zon, night qt
    Vendy Walpole: night Zon
    Qt Core: the phisical server the phisical brain
    Pema Pera: bye Zon!
    arabella Ella: nite Zon
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye vendy
    arabella Ella: nite vendy
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye zon
    Wol Euler: bye vendy, nice to meet you
    Vendy Walpole: Thank you, I have enjoyed, see you soon
    Zen Arado: Bye Vendy
    Vendy Walpole: Good night
    arabella Ella: notte Qt
    Pema Pera: bye Vendy!
    Zen Arado: bye Qt
    Qt Core: lovely session a pity i got great rl distractions
    Qt Core: bye all,
    Pema Pera: I should be going too
    Zen Arado: yes
    Pema Pera: I hope I didn't talk too much . . . . .
    Zen Arado: me too
    Wol Euler: jus barely enough :)
    Pema Pera: thank you for your patience in putting up with me!
    Zen Arado: sorry if talked too much
    arabella Ella: :)
    Pema Pera: I very much enjoined the exchange
    Pema Pera: thank you all !
    Zen Arado: enjoyed thinking about different approaches
    Wol Euler: goodnight pema, take care
    Wol Euler: thank you!
    Pema Pera: goodnight Wol, I'm off to dinner
    Zen Arado: bye Pema
    Pema Pera: with a bunch of avatars:
    Pema Pera: Stim, Kiremimi, Hana
    arabella Ella: nite Pema
    Zen Arado: I better go too
    Wol Euler: oh wow! lucky you.
    arabella Ella: :)
    Wol Euler: goodnight zen, take care
    arabella Ella: nite Zen
    Pema Pera: nite Arabella and Zen!
    Zen Arado: thanks again for interesting discussion
    Zen Arado: bye
    Pema Pera: bye Yakuzza and Wol
    Pema Pera: thank you too, Zen!
    arabella Ella: thanks Pema and Wol
    Pema Pera: Wol, let's continue this some day
    Wol Euler: sure, I'd love to.
    arabella Ella: great idea yes please!
    Pema Pera: a week from now?
    Pema Pera: same time?
    Wol Euler: I'm surprised and pleased at how well it turned out
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    Originally written on 17:38, 18 Oct 2009
    Great session!!
    I love this part: *Wol Euler: much of life though is state-oriented, not goal. "Why am I unhappy today" isn't about fixing a single goal
    Wol Euler: it's about discovering something basic about my state of being*
    Posted 11:45, 9 Apr 2010
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