2009.10.18 13:00 - ensuing discussions

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Maxine Walden. The comments are by Maxine Walden.

    We reviewed some of the themes brought up at the preceding guardian meeting at 8am SLT.  I have deleted many of the introductions as people join the group in order to allow focus on the threads of discussion. 

    Wol Euler: I'm sorry I missed the guardian meeting *again*, I was asleep, really needed a nap today
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i thought it´s monthly
    Wol Euler: well, gaya thought there was one.
    Pema Pera: every Sunday, 8 am SLT
    Maxine Walden: there have been some changes in terms of meetings and frequencies...takes a bit of getting used to
    Maxine Walden: we were speaking among other things this morning about whether to introduce a bit more structure back into the PaB meetings, such as this. A bit more about our PaB experiences and perhaps practices..
    Maxine Walden: and there were different thoughts: about the value of spontainteity, and the value of structure...what contributes to the creativity of these meetings....and of course it is probably not one thing, but some balance
    Maxine Walden: but another connected thread was about the new, the evolutions we are experiencing, might experience...
    Maxine Walden: Eos, Pema, Pila...other things come to mind from the meeting this morning?
    Pila Mulligan: your sunrise expereince -- being on the spontaneous side :)
    Pema Pera: many things were discussed . . . also the idea of doing a specific short practice here, and then talking about it
    Maxine Walden: yes, that was lovely: was and am in a National Park today and noted for the group the RL sunrise upon spectacular rugged mountains...stunning to have these coinciding realities
    Pema Pera: either during the 90 sec breaks or just in between
    SophiaSharon Larnia: explorations such as these do bring up a lot of ideas that are satisfying to discuss
    Eos Amaterasu: 90 secs coming up....
    Maxine Walden: yes, shall we have a practice and then share our experiences in the 90 sec coming up?

    And so we try to share our experiences during the 90 second pause 

    Maxine Walden: What experiences?
    Pema Pera: I went back to a light focus on what it means for me to "play as Being"
    Pema Pera: noticing the difference between "pretending to be Being" and "opening up to the possibility of already in fact being Being"
    Pema Pera: pretending can easily be a form of grasping, of trying to force something
    Pema Pera: while opening up can be a willingness to acknowledge something
    Pema Pera: it felt great to feel my resistance soften, to the idea of the "already perfect" :-)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)

    As we suggested later in the session, Yakuzza and others may have been expressing some of the inner voices we all have regarding the practice 

    Yakuzza Lethecus: Being non judgemental, being able to communicate without the pressure of keeping up a second face.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: I was thinking of the sunrise mentioned earlier and then thought of inner silence, if it was easier to 'touch' it, I don't know the connection :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: Just not to think about the own perception in order to be honest with myself, thats what i would also describe as play as being
    Pema Pera: yes, dropping preconceptions, as much as possible
    Yakuzza Lethecus: Silence is for me when i don´t think about things and let everything go
    Maxine Walden: perhaps the 'sunrise' and opening refers to letting all the familiar things go...just being open as to Being
    Pema Pera: would you like to say something about your experience, Maxine?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: (brb)
    Maxine Walden: My experience, being here in a park like setting, has been/and is right now a kind of being with less boundary, inspired by the beauty, the awesome natural setting; it seems to be the dominant 'presence' for me right now
    Maxine Walden: and I feel less boundaried in a good way, I think, which is less aware of where I stop and the outer beauty begins...
    Wol Euler smiles
    Eliza Madrigal smiles
    Pema Pera: :)
    Maxine Walden: this 'less boundaried' place seems to give rise not so much to clear thought as to a being at one with what is around
    Maxine Walden: Oh, here comes another 90 sec very soon! Shall we be open to it again?

    The next period of discussion may be seen as both holding the positive experiences and helping to hold, address, value the doubting voices and experiences

    Pema Pera: room for clear thought too, perhaps
    Maxine Walden: This 90 sec more aware of the beauty in this group...the potential we all have in our personal explorations and our mutual efforts...
    Maxine Walden: what about others?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: It was about thinking that i have to make an experience, which might prevented me from letting go.
    Pema Pera: :)
    Maxine Walden: ah, yes that sense of 'having' to do something...:)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: The explicit ,,not let go" moment seems to give me some form of pressue
    Pema Pera: but that pressure in turn can be something interesting to watch
    Pema Pera: may be hard at first but . . .
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i have felt that before in the past Yakuzza, i think that too is an experience
    SophiaSharon Larnia: and now
    Pema Pera: "just watching" is a good first step toward letting go
    Pema Pera: yes, Sophia

    Eos offers and interesting perspective re 'space' for experience

    Eos Amaterasu: The first 90 secs I was still overrun by multiple SL/RL activities/pre-occupations
    Eos Amaterasu: the second 90 secs I allowed just experience of that
    Eos Amaterasu: which seems to both punctuate it with space and situate it in space
    Maxine Walden: Eos, can you say more about the 'space' experience?
    Eos Amaterasu: if i'm totally engrossed in it, it is solid, all around me
    Eos Amaterasu: if I let it be a bit, just that letting be allows more room around it, so it's still happening, but "just" happening
    Eos Amaterasu: without so much of my extra this and that compounding it beyond what it already is
    Maxine Walden: nice description, Eos, for me of that less attached, less pressured sense allowing more observation

    Yakuzza continues to envoice the doubt which can lead to that 'stuck' feeling or dread and Eos and others try to offer perspectives which might help to get unstuck

    Yakuzza Lethecus: Right now i am thinking about the issue that it doesn´t seem to be helpfull for me to participate in pab as often as i can, i feel that i get more static, i think about the the pressure issues all the time even get to the same topics more frequently.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: doing vs observing?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: So i feel like i am getting further and further away from the openness i had in mind with this place before while that´s not raised through other people´s behavior but throught my own in some way
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i have the feeling that my associations get fixed more around here nower days
    SophiaSharon Larnia: (i meant to ask that to Eos) :)
    Eos Amaterasu: Yak, it could well be that you are becoming more (painfully) aware of that (not so much that it's happening more ) (maybe)
    Maxine Walden: Perhaps, Yaku, you are feeling a sense of 'having to be a certain way' which obscures the more relaxed letting it be

    The discussion from before the pause seems to continue

    Wol Euler: (pause coming up. Perhaps think about "being pab"?)
    Eos Amaterasu: SophiaSharon, re doing vs observing, sometimes the letting be also punctuates the doing, my heavy involvement in what's happening, so that the doing also has a sense of already being done - more humor around the doing
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    Eos Amaterasu: (sorry Wol, maybe that also relates to "being pab") (being played by being?)
    Maxine Walden: Wol, your experience this last pause?

    Wol also expresses that stuck, trapped feeling

    Wol Euler: I was aware of being utterly trapped in my body and monkeymind today, with work and holiday coming up and trying not to catch a cold.
    Wol Euler: just can't step aside from myself at all today.
    Maxine Walden: ah...
    Lingerer Xaris: i have days like that

    And Lingerer offers a response to help Wol out 

    Lingerer Xaris: what Pema said before really struck me: I went back to a light focus on what it means for me to "play as Being" [13:18] Pema Pera: noticing the difference between "pretending to be Being" and "opening up to the possibility of already in fact being Being"
    Maxine Walden: that can feel like being 'trapped'...
    Maxine Walden: yes, Lingere?
    Maxine Walden: Lingerer
    SophiaSharon Larnia: (smothers a grin)
    Lingerer Xaris: i was just saying that i response to Wol's concern
    Wol Euler smiles
    Lingerer Xaris: Sometimes there is no space, though. It just happened to be that today i really heard those words.
    Eliza Madrigal smiles
    SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles
    Pema Pera: glad to hear that, Lingerer

    I wonder here about the envoicing for the group and mention it

    Maxine Walden: I realize there are different perspectives as we gather here, but one that just came to my mind is that often in groups one member speaks for the whole group and different perspectives can be envoiced by individuals who also are voices for the group as a whole
    Pema Pera: yes
    Maxine Walden: so that all of our doubts, uncertainties, tentativenesses and explorations may be expressed by different individuals but are really our inner voices as well
    Wol Euler nods
    Eliza Madrigal considers light focus... as something which can perhaps nurture letting go/opening... as flowers to the light
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, Maxine
    Pema Pera: for example, I think we all recognize what Yukuzza told us
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Pema Pera: I think we all go through such phases
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes
    Maxine Walden: indeed, Pema
    Eliza Madrigal: definitely
    Pema Pera: if not, we're not seriously engaged
    Wol Euler: mmhmm
    Pema Pera: so that is one reason to be here, to know we're not alone in our quirks and struggles :-)
    Maxine Walden: and that we may be envoicing something for the group as well as for ourselves
    Pema Pera: even though each of us has his or her uniquely creative way to fight with themselves
    SophiaSharon Larnia: nods
    Pema Pera: if we see it as entertainment rather than barriers, we already have almost scaled the barriers . . . .
    Lingerer Xaris: nods
    Maxine Walden: Afraid I must go in a moment. Nice discussion today.
    Eliza Madrigal: Thanks so much Maxine :)

    As I and several others leave those remaining share with a participant, Phil, a friend introduced by Pila, some of the details and history of PaB sessions, but especially a chatlog that lasted over 6 hours!!  As often occurs, after the 'official' session very interesting discussion ensues...

    Lingerer Xaris: yes, very good discussion
    Eos Amaterasu: Must also go, thanks and bye eveyone!
    Pila Mulligan: bye Eos
    Pema Pera: bye Yakuzza and All!
    Wol Euler: bye eos, take care
    Wol Euler: bye pema
    Pema Pera: I'll have to leave too
    Pila Mulligan: bye Pema
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Eos, and bye everyone :))
    SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles and waves
    PhilNS Schumann: bye to anybody whos' leaving :-) lost the count
    Lingerer Xaris: bye
    Eliza Madrigal: yes aloha to those leaving :) I'm enjoying the company today
    Pila Mulligan: the scheduled hour just ended Phil
    Pila Mulligan: but things often conintue on
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Wol Euler: the record is eight hours.
    Pila Mulligan: wow
    Pila Mulligan: really?
    Wol Euler: yep
    PhilNS Schumann: yes.. seen the timetable.. very frequent.. flyer :-)
    Wol Euler: one session went straignt through into the next, which itself went into overtime
    PhilNS Schumann: what was the subject then Lin ?
    PhilNS Schumann: sorry .. Wol
    Wol Euler: many subjects :)
    Lingerer Xaris: apparently dinner is ready, lol
    Lingerer Xaris: this was great
    Wol Euler: I could look it up for you, it's on the wiki
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Lingerer, Nice to meet you!
    Lingerer Xaris: i will read over the transcript
    Wol Euler: bye lingerer, bon appetit
    PhilNS Schumann: overplaced bubbles --smiles--
    Pila Mulligan: bye Lingerer
    Lingerer Xaris: lovely to spend this time with you all
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    PhilNS Schumann: found the wiki .. just wondered which of the one lasted so long
    Pila Mulligan: here's how this session began, today, Phil: [13:10] Maxine Walden: we were speaking among other things this morning about whether to introduce a bit more structure back into the PaB meetings, such as this. A bit more about our PaB experiences and perhaps practices..
    Pila Mulligan: it can flow from that kind of start thruogh a dozen topics
    Wol Euler: hmmm, I'd have to google it. It was early on, over a year ago
    Pila Mulligan: Phil is also in Europe Wol, and Eliza is in the US, Phil
    PhilNS Schumann: eventually I'll find out at the right moment .. don't worry for now.. was just curious .. about the 8 hours discussion
    Pila Mulligan: for time zone purposes :)
    PhilNS Schumann: it's ok Pila
    Pila Mulligan: Phil and I met at Nymf's Forum, a couple of years ago, where we were regulars
    Eliza Madrigal: I was just typing that question Pila, as to how you and Phil met :)
    PhilNS Schumann: true.. some long time ago.. and we were stil sitting in a circle .. similar to this :-)
    Pila Mulligan: yes, it was
    Pila Mulligan: do you rememebr Samuel O'Kelly there, Phil?
    Wol Euler: ha :) a famililar name
    PhilNS Schumann: well sure.. Sam has been familiar through some other experiences ..
    Pila Mulligan: Sam came thorough here for a while, some months ago -- he did not stay, though, as he coulld not get enough denates going :)
    Pila Mulligan: debates*
    PhilNS Schumann: eh ... he had his way to propose his point of view ... like anybody has their own .. finding a tuning match is not always successfull :-)
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: and some folks here, like Wol, are pretty quick to deflate a discordant note
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Wol Euler: eh?
    PhilNS Schumann: really ? .. --grins-- sometimes a discordant note .. has its value :-)
    Pila Mulligan: Wol is a modest moderator
    Wol Euler: well, yes, it depends on the circumstances and the players.
    Wol Euler: http://playasbeing.wik.is/Chat_Logs/2008/08/2008.08.05_07%3a00_-_Online%2c_off_the_line_chat_plays
    Wol Euler: that was the six-hour session
    PhilNS Schumann: true Wol .. everything should be perceived in its particularity
    Pila Mulligan: thanks Wol
    Wol Euler: yw, enjoy
    PhilNS Schumann: hey thanks.. recording the link.. suppose reading a 6 hours transcript.. will take.. some time :-)
    Wol Euler: not quite six hours, but close :)
    PhilNS Schumann: mm. what なるほど means ?
    Wol Euler: I sometimes print out transcripts to read offline
    Pila Mulligan: this is from near the end of the trasncript: "Threedee Shepherd: Joke: Guy at rural train station is surprised when trail arrives ten minutes early, and remarks as such to the station master. Reply: Nope, that's yesterday's train."
    Wol Euler: :)
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    PhilNS Schumann: hehe
    Wol Euler: Heraclitus would say someting like "you cannot ride twice in the same train"
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: like reading a book twice -- usually a little different each time
    Wol Euler: phil, there are often bits of foreign languages in our transcripts :)
    PhilNS Schumann: eh.. everchanging world
    Wol Euler: yes, pila.
    PhilNS Schumann: was kidding.. just because ti was the last statement of the conversation :-)
    Pila Mulligan: sometimes it is even Japanese characters in the logs
    Pila Mulligan: as are those :)
    PhilNS Schumann: well anyway I would find it really nice to end a long convesation, not with an answer.. but with a question.. a mystery ..
    PhilNS Schumann: makes for long thinking then
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :) I need to run... Good to see everyone, and to meet you Phil
    Wol Euler: 'night eliza, take care
    Pila Mulligan: bye Eliza
    PhilNS Schumann: nice meeting you too Eliza
    PhilNS Schumann: be well
    PhilNS Schumann: can I ask what's the real menaing of those 90 seconds of silence ?
    Pila Mulligan: Wol is also find of symmetry in sitting arrangements
    Wol Euler: :)
    Pila Mulligan: fond*
    Pila Mulligan: I see it as abalancing method,Phil
    Pila Mulligan: sometimes chats can get a pretty high velocity
    Wol Euler: well, they rose out of our principal practice, which is a 9-second pause to meditate every 15 minutes
    Wol Euler: somebody suggested expanding that to 90 secs here.
    PhilNS Schumann: smiles.. fond of balance all around Wol
    Wol Euler: and yes, it does calm the discourse down-
    Wol Euler: when people notice it.
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: when = not always
    PhilNS Schumann: I can easily imagine..people fully excited into some sort of conversation easily ignoring a little blue note :-)
    Wol Euler: well, also we are not all touch-typists :)
    PhilNS Schumann: there should be some sort of fireworks blasting out of the pond :-)
    Wol Euler: the fountain spray changes to a mist, but that is pretty subtle, and people sometimes turn particles off
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    PhilNS Schumann: hahahah .. ok ... sure..
    Pila Mulligan needs to be going on to some RL stuff -- nice to see you again Phil, and nice as always to chat with you, Wol
    Wol Euler: bye pila, enjoy the day.
    PhilNS Schumann: Nice finding you active as usual Pila
    Pila Mulligan: aloha `oe
    PhilNS Schumann: enjoy
    PhilNS Schumann: waves
    Wol Euler: I should go too, things to do etc.
    Wol Euler: nice meeting you, phil; feel free to drop in again
    PhilNS Schumann: nods .. have an interesting day you too Wol ...
    Wol Euler: "night" for me, I'm one of the Euros :)
    PhilNS Schumann: I imagine I will
    PhilNS Schumann: well. also nights can be interesting
    Wol Euler: :)
    Wol Euler: on that pleasant note ...
    PhilNS Schumann: nini Wol
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