2009.10.19 13:00 - An open source kind of thing

The Guardian for this meeting was Stim Morane. The comments are by Stim Morane.

Fael Illyar: Hi Scath, Wol :)
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Fael:)
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Wol:)
Wol Euler: hello fael, scath
Wol Euler: hello hana
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Hana:)
Fael Illyar: Hi Hana :)
--BELL--
Hana Furlough: hi everyone
Fael Illyar: Hi Zon :)
Wol Euler: hello zon
Fael Illyar: Hi Gen :)
Zon Muhindra: hi everyone:)
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello zon, Gen:)
Wol Euler: hello gen
Hana Furlough: hi zon, hi gen
Fael Illyar: Hi Stim :)
Wol Euler: hello qt, stim
Fael Illyar: Hi Qt :)
Qt Core: hi all
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Stim, Qt:)
Hana Furlough: hi qy, hi stim
Stim Morane: Hi everyone!
Fael Illyar: Hi SophiaSharon :)
genesis Zhangsun: Hi everyone!
SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi everyone :)
Qt Core: hi sophia
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello SophiaSharon
Hana Furlough: hi sophias~
Zon Muhindra: hi
Wol Euler: hello pema, sophia
Hana Furlough: hi zon
Fael Illyar: Hi Pea :)
Fael Illyar: Pema :)
Qt Core: hi pema
Pema Pera: hi everybody!
SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Pema
Scathach Rhiadra: hello Pema
Zon Muhindra: heya
Pema Pera: a little bit of trivia: Stim and Gen and Hana and I are sharing the same room in RL while typing :-)
Wol Euler: :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: wow!
Pema Pera: a little sunny room in Princeton
Fael Illyar smiles.
Qt Core: stealing bandwith to each other ;-)
Pema Pera: there has been talk about switching avatars . . . . .
Wol Euler: heheheheh
Hana Furlough: smiles
Wol Euler: to see whether we'd catch on?
Pema Pera: so far it has only been *talk* . . . .
Stim Morane: :)
genesis Zhangsun: hehe
Pema Pera: Hana is visiting me for a year, Stim for three weeks, Gen for a week, and later this week Storm and Cal will drop by as well
Wol Euler: a year! wow.
Hana Furlough: yes i'm very lucky
Wol Euler: phone, brb
Fael Illyar: oh, long visit :)
Pema Pera: (it's an interesting experience hearing my fellow avatar typists type before the words appear here on my screen . . . .)
Hana Furlough: you don't say, pema
Pema Pera: :)
Pema Pera: Stim and I have been talking today about the difference between science and more traditional approaches, like the various forms of Buddhism for example
Pema Pera: about how in physics, as an example, you don't have a school of Newtonians or Galileans or followers of Einstein versus followers of Maxwell
Wol Euler: back, reading
Pema Pera: and we were wondering whether there ever would be a time in which Buddhists and Taoists and Sufis, etc, would be able to share their activities in a similar way
Zon Muhindra: dont think so
Pema Pera: why not, Zon?
Fael Illyar: speaking of Buddhism, I've been going to local Diamondway Buddhist Centerin Turku for a bit over 2 weeks now :)
Hana Furlough: the intersection of buddhism and taoism is evident in chan/zen
Hana Furlough: for example
Qt Core: i doubt it, most religion start from a "i'm right " position
Zon Muhindra: cause these ways cannot be same
Pema Pera: yes, but perhaps that can change, Qt?
Qt Core: i doubt it
Zon Muhindra: the goal is
Zon Muhindra: but methods r different
SophiaSharon Larnia: you don't think that these many expressions are different words to describe the same thing?
Pema Pera: oh, but in physics electricity and magnetism are not the same either, and different physicists study mainly the one or the other, but they are not fighting and claiming that the one is more "physics" or "better" than the other -- they respect each other equally
Pema Pera: while the methods are different to some extent
SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Bertam
Qt Core: the lovely difference from i'm right and i'd like to be right ;-)
Pema Pera: hi Bert!
Zon Muhindra: there r levels in religions
Hana Furlough: hi bert~
Zon Muhindra: exteranl levels quarrel
genesis Zhangsun: hi bert
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Bertram
Pema Pera: or we're all right but I prefer to focus on this approach
Bertram Jacobus: no hi bertram necessairy -please continue your talk (!) :-)
Zon Muhindra: internal experience is same
--BELL--
genesis Zhangsun: whats your theory exactly Pema as to why they developed in such different ways religion v. science
Zon Muhindra: enligheten beings in each religion respect each other, those focussed on external issues quarrel
Pema Pera: when science burst onto the scene in its present form, some four hundred years ago, there had been experiments in technology for thousands of years, and most of the knowledge there was sectarian, as with religious traditions, Gen.
Pema Pera: the big revolution around Galileo's time was to make progress an "open source" kind of thing
Pema Pera: sharing rather than hoarding and bickering
Pema Pera being provocative to fuel the conversation :)
Qt Core: when things started to be to big to be contained in one brain only, maybe ?
Fael Illyar: Hi Eliza :)
Pema Pera: yes, and progress was seen as multigenerational
Pema Pera: building upon the results from previous generations
Pema Pera: hi Eliza!
Hana Furlough: hi eliza~
Stim Morane: Hi Eliza
genesis Zhangsun: really? was there an explicit movement towards open source during that time? I seem to remember something about the catholic church. which I don't associate with open source :)
Zon Muhindra: hi eliza
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Eliza
SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Eliza, yes Gen
Pema Pera: openness of publications, rather than keeping family secrets as in metallurgy, etc
Qt Core: and even many scientist hide their discobery
Qt Core: and took decades to make them know
Pema Pera: sure, but I'm taking a centuries type look
Pema Pera: over the last four hundred years
Qt Core: ok, getting my mental fisheye ;-)
Stim Morane: :)
Pema Pera: In my conversation with Stim today, I said that in a hundred years viable religions will respect and collaborate, much as scientist do today
Pema Pera: but Stim shook his head, and said he doubted that
Pema Pera: Stim, do you want to give your reasons?
Qt Core: i doubt it about my chatolicism
Stim Morane: It's happening now ... I wasn't doubting that possibility, just that it will figure as central
Zon Muhindra: depends on how deep ppl r able to go in their religion
Stim Morane: Eclecticism is common now, and so are discussions amongst the traditions. But there are reasons for them to hold to their own central emphases.
Hana Furlough: but is it possible that certain approaches used by certain traditions are best suited to certain people?
Stim Morane: Yes, Hana
Stim Morane: And that is one of the reasons why the differences will and should remain.
Zon Muhindra: agrees
Wol Euler nods
Pema Pera: (yes, Zon, and also on the "spirit of the time" of how respectful people are about other approaches)
genesis Zhangsun: and what about as people come to share a common culture and old ones are destroyed as it seems is currently happening with globalization
Pema Pera: ah, but in physics different approaches suit different researchers too!
Hana Furlough: yes i agree that there should be a prerequisite openness
genesis Zhangsun: wil the change in emphasis change the importance of the eclectic project?
Stim Morane: Different approaches in physics probably don't = different views, Pema ... not in any deep sense. It's not analogous to spirituality.
Stim Morane: There are disagreements in physics, but those will be resolved ...
Stim Morane: And replaced by others.
Pema Pera: there I don't agree, Stim -- for once we seem to have a disagreement, but we'll have to check to make sure :)
Zon Muhindra: religion depends on the level of understanding...as long as tehre r different levels..there will be differetn religions
Fael Illyar: are the differences in spiritual views truly disagreements or just differences in language?
Stim Morane: The levels angle is one important part of the picture. But there are some others too, which also bear on this. Suffice it to say the differences will remain.
Pema Pera: over time, amazing discoveries in physics showed that seemingly very different things, like even space and time, or energy and matter, could be described in ways that were clearly connected
Stim Morane: Yes, and that addressed *some* disagreements.
Stim Morane: But not all.
Pema Pera: can we take an example, Stim?
Stim Morane: Some were simply wrong.
Pema Pera: of a difference that is unbridgeable?
Stim Morane: There are simply different emphases which can be understood and respected.
Pema Pera: yes, Zon, but different physicists also have different levels of understanding
Pema Pera: qutie different
Hana Furlough: same with religious traditions, right?
--BELL--
Wol Euler: ((pause coming up, shall we concentrate on the change of breathing from inhale to exhale?))
Pema Pera: hi Phil!
Hana Furlough: hi phil~
Wol Euler: hello phil, nice to see you again
PhilNS Schumann: Hi Perm
SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Phil
genesis Zhangsun: hi phil
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Phil :)
PhilNS Schumann: Hi all .. thanks
Pema Pera: (thanks for the suggestin, Wol !)
Stim Morane: hi phil
Zon Muhindra: science studies outside..measureable things..religion inside..subjectivity..how can u measure that ? u cna only try to express it, and expressions vary, experience is probably same
Hana Furlough: yes but you can reproduce it
Hana Furlough: you can experience it for yourself
Zon Muhindra: thats direct experience,,not religion
Pema Pera: like in retracing a mathematical proof
Hana Furlough: what's the difference?
Zon Muhindra: religion is a lie
Wol Euler raises an eyebrow.
Zon Muhindra: expereince a truth
Fael Illyar smiles 'Lie is going a bit far with generalizing...'
SophiaSharon Larnia: interpreting exerience is ususally based on our ideas about it, these may not be truths
Zon Muhindra: we need diffferent religion stories
Zon Muhindra: to express our subjective expereinces
genesis Zhangsun: I agree Zon I don't associate direct experience with religion I associate religion with institutions, many of which were more concerned with power than the truth
Zon Muhindra: nods
Fael Illyar: but I have to agree with Gen here :)
Zon Muhindra: so these kind of religions cannot be same
Zon Muhindra: ever
Zon Muhindra: but in deeper sense
Zon Muhindra: the religious expereince
Zon Muhindra: is same
Hana Furlough: is it?
Zon Muhindra: and if we ralise this
Zon Muhindra: we smile
Zon Muhindra: and respect
Zon Muhindra: the ways others express it
Pema Pera: it doesn't have to be the exact same, necessarily
Pema Pera: as in physics, different parts are quite different, both on the level of theory and experiment
Pema Pera: but any difference, when it shows up, makes physicists look for a wider framework, wide enough to incorporate and respect both
Pema Pera: rather than narrowing their framework like two islands, each one encircling just one kind of experiment/theory
Zon Muhindra: if there is oneness behind this diversity that binds it togeter,,the realisation of it is much similar
Pema Pera: yes, that's a key question
Pema Pera: to what extent such a oneness can be found, and then can be communicated, respected, agreed upon to a sufficient extent . . . .
Hana Furlough: but there is also the particular
Hana Furlough: how shall the particular relate to that oneness?
Zon Muhindra: wonderful basic question
Zon Muhindra: lol
Zon Muhindra: is there oneness and how one becanme many
Pema Pera: different parts of science are rather different, having their own particular methods, areas of research, as well as "community flavors" and approaches . . . yet they are not in an antogonistic relationship with other parts of science, at least not fundamentally so.
Hana Furlough: but isn't there some degree of disagreement when it comes to more theoretical aspects of science?
Pema Pera: in the discovery stage yes
Zon Muhindra: like..is there consciousness and what is it ?
Hana Furlough: yes
Pema Pera: but when differences are found, the first reaction of the scientific community is: wow, there are seemingly very different way to do this calculation, or this experiment, let's see how they are connected
Pema Pera: and not: let's develop them in great detail separately
Pema Pera: and independently
Hana Furlough: so pema, how might this relate to different religious traditions?
--BELL--
Zon Muhindra: nods..in that respect basic buddhism is very scinetific
Zon Muhindra: study,,do experiment..see results..dont believe...try ..and learn...i think this is the only common direction
Zon Muhindra: for religions
Zon Muhindra: in future
Pema Pera: yes, Buddhism is and it isn't. it is internally, yes, to quite a large degree. But it strongly denies, say, Hinduist approaches, whereas I wonder whether the deepest no-self insights of Buddhism are not compatible with the deepest higher-self insights of Hinduism, for example
Zon Muhindra: i think they r
Zon Muhindra: depth aspect..
Pema Pera: Hi Yaku!
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
Wol Euler: hello yaku
Hana Furlough: recent scholarship is reevaluating the very concept of atman
Eliza Madrigal: Hello Yakuzza :)
Stim Morane: Hi yakuzza
Zon Muhindra: hi Yaku
Hana Furlough: hi yaku
genesis Zhangsun: I wonder if science was shielded from power grabs/political projects of the society unlike religion because it relegated itself to the realm of matter, something which is outside of culture whereas the development of religion has been much more embedded in the development of a given society's culture
genesis Zhangsun: Hi Yaku
Hana Furlough: yes gen
Pema Pera: safer, yes
Hana Furlough: science may also be just an ideological construct
Pema Pera: in what way, Hana?
Hana Furlough: in the sense that it has its own set of presuppositions
Hana Furlough: as does any religious/philosophical tradition
genesis Zhangsun: ha perhaps science is the religion of the west :)
Hana Furlough: yes
Pema Pera: yes, the choice of topics, the approaches, the notations, are all culture bound, but what science finds in terms of reproducible phenomena really does seem universal
Hana Furlough: but it tends to discount or exclude things it cannot measure
Pema Pera: a cell phone works, whether or not you buy into the culture that produced it
Wol Euler grins
Pema Pera: oh sure, it is definitely limited
Pema Pera: that is its main strength
genesis Zhangsun: yes but is a cell phone "science"?
Pema Pera: it grows very very slowly like a hardwood tree
Pema Pera: it is based on science, like the equations of electromagnetism
Hana Furlough: so there's no room for a 'sudden' approach?
Zon Muhindra: science can only study measureble ?
Zon Muhindra: measurable = matter
Pema Pera: there are jumps, paradigm shifts, but they are followed by a long integration period . . . . on a collective level somewhat like what contemplative approaches see happening on an individual level
Hana Furlough: smiles
Pema Pera: scientists are boddhisattvas, postponing ultimate insight until all their fellow scientists are on the same page :)
Wol Euler laughs. Nice.
Hana Furlough: lol
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hello Lila
Pema Pera: yes, Zon, but what counts as measurable is evolving
Zon Muhindra: the scientific method is the right one to me
PhilNS Schumann: smiles to the definition of "right" .. still
Zon Muhindra: but how to study conscuoisnes
Hana Furlough: right
Zon Muhindra: which cant be measured
PhilNS Schumann: always thought science is just one of the many way to perceive and observe the world.. a point of view worth like another
Hana Furlough: this is an interestig questin
Pema Pera: nice to meet you Lila!
Lila Sideways: thank you
Fael Illyar: Hello Lila :)
genesis Zhangsun: hi lila
Zon Muhindra: science percieves outside
Stim Morane: hi lisa
Stim Morane: Lila, sorry
Pema Pera: so far, yes, Zon
Lila Sideways: thank you for the welcome
SophiaSharon Larnia: (slips away quietly... interesting conversation, bye for now!)
Wol Euler: bye SS, take care
Pema Pera: we're a friendly bunch Lila
SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
Zon Muhindra: true religion or meditation inside
genesis Zhangsun: I want to go back to the notion of cell phone as science
Hana Furlough: me too
--BELL--
Lila Sideways: bye all
Wol Euler: bye lila
Lila Sideways: i am taking zon away
Stim Morane: Must go also ... Thanks, everyone!
Wol Euler: bye stim, zon
Zon Muhindra: interesting discussion, ty all, gtg, bye
Eliza Madrigal: bye lila and zon and Stim :)
Stim Morane: Bye!
genesis Zhangsun: bye Stim
Scathach Rhiadra: bye Stim, zon
Pema Pera: Bye Stim!
genesis Zhangsun: so okay cell phones as a product of science but I would not say "science" hold universal truth because cell phones work
Bertram Jacobus: i´ll take a look to the hikari group ... have a good time all , ty and may all beings be happy please
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Bertram, be happy too :)
Scathach Rhiadra: bye Bertram
Wol Euler: bye bertram
Bertram Jacobus: ty eliza. yes : i´m a being too ... :-))
Eliza Madrigal: ;-)
Bertram Jacobus: ty again all :-)
Qt Core: bye bert
Scathach Rhiadra: good night all:)
PhilNS Schumann: bye Bert
genesis Zhangsun: I could say certain law are "universal" because technically if exported from one country to another country they would "work" the same way, as in they would provide the same technical result
Pema Pera: no, rather science is more than just fashion or opinion: science at least has grabbed on to something real enough to let cell phones work -- but of course there can be much more than science that is also real
genesis Zhangsun: I just think there is more to scientific truth than cell phones :)
Wol Euler: yes, of course.
genesis Zhangsun: just because it "works" doesn't mean it is "true"
Pema Pera: of course there is; I used it as a way to show that science is more than fashion or opinion
Fael Illyar: cell phones are an application of the knowledge. not the knowledge itself, nor the way to get it
Pema Pera: not "true" in an ultimate way, but showing that some piece of reality has been uncovered
Pema Pera: fantasy or just opinion wouldn't let you communicate over large distances
Pema Pera: and yes, to the extent that a system of law could be made to work universally, it would really then have uncovered something univeral about human beings
Pema Pera: *universal
Hana Furlough: are you sure about that?
Hana Furlough: the fantasy/opinion comment
Hana Furlough: : )
Pema Pera: try it :)
Hana Furlough: ok i'll report back : )
Pema Pera: looking forward -- but please via a standard channel as well :)
genesis Zhangsun: in science it is much easier than law
genesis Zhangsun: I guess its in the defining what "works"
genesis Zhangsun: order was reversed there
Hana Furlough: will do
Pema Pera: (I'll have to go to a talk in RL now . . . )
genesis Zhangsun: okay cheers
Pema Pera: bye everybody!
genesis Zhangsun: I will be going too
Wol Euler: to be continued?
Hana Furlough: me thre
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Pema, Genesis :)
Pema Pera: sure!
PhilNS Schumann: bye Pema
Qt Core: bye bema
Hana Furlough: bye everyone~
Fael Illyar: bye pema, Gen :)
genesis Zhangsun: bye everyone :)
Pema Pera: happy to, Wol
Wol Euler: goodngiht everyone, take care, be happy.
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Hana, all :)
genesis Zhangsun: nice to see you all
Eliza Madrigal: Be Happy too Wol :)
Eliza Madrigal: And all :)
Wol Euler: I'll do my very best.
PhilNS Schumann: nighty to all
Fael Illyar: have fun everyone :)
Fael Illyar waves.
Qt Core: 'night
Qt Core: ok, bye