2009.10.19 13:00 - An open source kind of thing

    Table of contents
    No headers

    The Guardian for this meeting was Stim Morane. The comments are by Stim Morane.

    Fael Illyar: Hi Scath, Wol :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Fael:)
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Wol:)
    Wol Euler: hello fael, scath
    Wol Euler: hello hana
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Hana:)
    Fael Illyar: Hi Hana :)
    Hana Furlough: hi everyone
    Fael Illyar: Hi Zon :)
    Wol Euler: hello zon
    Fael Illyar: Hi Gen :)
    Zon Muhindra: hi everyone:)
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello zon, Gen:)
    Wol Euler: hello gen
    Hana Furlough: hi zon, hi gen
    Fael Illyar: Hi Stim :)
    Wol Euler: hello qt, stim
    Fael Illyar: Hi Qt :)
    Qt Core: hi all
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Stim, Qt:)
    Hana Furlough: hi qy, hi stim
    Stim Morane: Hi everyone!
    Fael Illyar: Hi SophiaSharon :)
    genesis Zhangsun: Hi everyone!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi everyone :)
    Qt Core: hi sophia
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello SophiaSharon
    Hana Furlough: hi sophias~
    Zon Muhindra: hi
    Wol Euler: hello pema, sophia
    Hana Furlough: hi zon
    Fael Illyar: Hi Pea :)
    Fael Illyar: Pema :)
    Qt Core: hi pema
    Pema Pera: hi everybody!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Pema
    Scathach Rhiadra: hello Pema
    Zon Muhindra: heya
    Pema Pera: a little bit of trivia: Stim and Gen and Hana and I are sharing the same room in RL while typing :-)
    Wol Euler: :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: wow!
    Pema Pera: a little sunny room in Princeton
    Fael Illyar smiles.
    Qt Core: stealing bandwith to each other ;-)
    Pema Pera: there has been talk about switching avatars . . . . .
    Wol Euler: heheheheh
    Hana Furlough: smiles
    Wol Euler: to see whether we'd catch on?
    Pema Pera: so far it has only been *talk* . . . .
    Stim Morane: :)
    genesis Zhangsun: hehe
    Pema Pera: Hana is visiting me for a year, Stim for three weeks, Gen for a week, and later this week Storm and Cal will drop by as well
    Wol Euler: a year! wow.
    Hana Furlough: yes i'm very lucky
    Wol Euler: phone, brb
    Fael Illyar: oh, long visit :)
    Pema Pera: (it's an interesting experience hearing my fellow avatar typists type before the words appear here on my screen . . . .)
    Hana Furlough: you don't say, pema
    Pema Pera: :)
    Pema Pera: Stim and I have been talking today about the difference between science and more traditional approaches, like the various forms of Buddhism for example
    Pema Pera: about how in physics, as an example, you don't have a school of Newtonians or Galileans or followers of Einstein versus followers of Maxwell
    Wol Euler: back, reading
    Pema Pera: and we were wondering whether there ever would be a time in which Buddhists and Taoists and Sufis, etc, would be able to share their activities in a similar way
    Zon Muhindra: dont think so
    Pema Pera: why not, Zon?
    Fael Illyar: speaking of Buddhism, I've been going to local Diamondway Buddhist Centerin Turku for a bit over 2 weeks now :)
    Hana Furlough: the intersection of buddhism and taoism is evident in chan/zen
    Hana Furlough: for example
    Qt Core: i doubt it, most religion start from a "i'm right " position
    Zon Muhindra: cause these ways cannot be same
    Pema Pera: yes, but perhaps that can change, Qt?
    Qt Core: i doubt it
    Zon Muhindra: the goal is
    Zon Muhindra: but methods r different
    SophiaSharon Larnia: you don't think that these many expressions are different words to describe the same thing?
    Pema Pera: oh, but in physics electricity and magnetism are not the same either, and different physicists study mainly the one or the other, but they are not fighting and claiming that the one is more "physics" or "better" than the other -- they respect each other equally
    Pema Pera: while the methods are different to some extent
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Bertam
    Qt Core: the lovely difference from i'm right and i'd like to be right ;-)
    Pema Pera: hi Bert!
    Zon Muhindra: there r levels in religions
    Hana Furlough: hi bert~
    Zon Muhindra: exteranl levels quarrel
    genesis Zhangsun: hi bert
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Bertram
    Pema Pera: or we're all right but I prefer to focus on this approach
    Bertram Jacobus: no hi bertram necessairy -please continue your talk (!) :-)
    Zon Muhindra: internal experience is same
    genesis Zhangsun: whats your theory exactly Pema as to why they developed in such different ways religion v. science
    Zon Muhindra: enligheten beings in each religion respect each other, those focussed on external issues quarrel
    Pema Pera: when science burst onto the scene in its present form, some four hundred years ago, there had been experiments in technology for thousands of years, and most of the knowledge there was sectarian, as with religious traditions, Gen.
    Pema Pera: the big revolution around Galileo's time was to make progress an "open source" kind of thing
    Pema Pera: sharing rather than hoarding and bickering
    Pema Pera being provocative to fuel the conversation :)
    Qt Core: when things started to be to big to be contained in one brain only, maybe ?
    Fael Illyar: Hi Eliza :)
    Pema Pera: yes, and progress was seen as multigenerational
    Pema Pera: building upon the results from previous generations
    Pema Pera: hi Eliza!
    Hana Furlough: hi eliza~
    Stim Morane: Hi Eliza
    genesis Zhangsun: really? was there an explicit movement towards open source during that time? I seem to remember something about the catholic church. which I don't associate with open source :)
    Zon Muhindra: hi eliza
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Eliza
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Eliza, yes Gen
    Pema Pera: openness of publications, rather than keeping family secrets as in metallurgy, etc
    Qt Core: and even many scientist hide their discobery
    Qt Core: and took decades to make them know
    Pema Pera: sure, but I'm taking a centuries type look
    Pema Pera: over the last four hundred years
    Qt Core: ok, getting my mental fisheye ;-)
    Stim Morane: :)
    Pema Pera: In my conversation with Stim today, I said that in a hundred years viable religions will respect and collaborate, much as scientist do today
    Pema Pera: but Stim shook his head, and said he doubted that
    Pema Pera: Stim, do you want to give your reasons?
    Qt Core: i doubt it about my chatolicism
    Stim Morane: It's happening now ... I wasn't doubting that possibility, just that it will figure as central
    Zon Muhindra: depends on how deep ppl r able to go in their religion
    Stim Morane: Eclecticism is common now, and so are discussions amongst the traditions. But there are reasons for them to hold to their own central emphases.
    Hana Furlough: but is it possible that certain approaches used by certain traditions are best suited to certain people?
    Stim Morane: Yes, Hana
    Stim Morane: And that is one of the reasons why the differences will and should remain.
    Zon Muhindra: agrees
    Wol Euler nods
    Pema Pera: (yes, Zon, and also on the "spirit of the time" of how respectful people are about other approaches)
    genesis Zhangsun: and what about as people come to share a common culture and old ones are destroyed as it seems is currently happening with globalization
    Pema Pera: ah, but in physics different approaches suit different researchers too!
    Hana Furlough: yes i agree that there should be a prerequisite openness
    genesis Zhangsun: wil the change in emphasis change the importance of the eclectic project?
    Stim Morane: Different approaches in physics probably don't = different views, Pema ... not in any deep sense. It's not analogous to spirituality.
    Stim Morane: There are disagreements in physics, but those will be resolved ...
    Stim Morane: And replaced by others.
    Pema Pera: there I don't agree, Stim -- for once we seem to have a disagreement, but we'll have to check to make sure :)
    Zon Muhindra: religion depends on the level of understanding...as long as tehre r different levels..there will be differetn religions
    Fael Illyar: are the differences in spiritual views truly disagreements or just differences in language?
    Stim Morane: The levels angle is one important part of the picture. But there are some others too, which also bear on this. Suffice it to say the differences will remain.
    Pema Pera: over time, amazing discoveries in physics showed that seemingly very different things, like even space and time, or energy and matter, could be described in ways that were clearly connected
    Stim Morane: Yes, and that addressed *some* disagreements.
    Stim Morane: But not all.
    Pema Pera: can we take an example, Stim?
    Stim Morane: Some were simply wrong.
    Pema Pera: of a difference that is unbridgeable?
    Stim Morane: There are simply different emphases which can be understood and respected.
    Pema Pera: yes, Zon, but different physicists also have different levels of understanding
    Pema Pera: qutie different
    Hana Furlough: same with religious traditions, right?
    Wol Euler: ((pause coming up, shall we concentrate on the change of breathing from inhale to exhale?))
    Pema Pera: hi Phil!
    Hana Furlough: hi phil~
    Wol Euler: hello phil, nice to see you again
    PhilNS Schumann: Hi Perm
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Phil
    genesis Zhangsun: hi phil
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Phil :)
    PhilNS Schumann: Hi all .. thanks
    Pema Pera: (thanks for the suggestin, Wol !)
    Stim Morane: hi phil
    Zon Muhindra: science studies outside..measureable things..religion inside..subjectivity..how can u measure that ? u cna only try to express it, and expressions vary, experience is probably same
    Hana Furlough: yes but you can reproduce it
    Hana Furlough: you can experience it for yourself
    Zon Muhindra: thats direct experience,,not religion
    Pema Pera: like in retracing a mathematical proof
    Hana Furlough: what's the difference?
    Zon Muhindra: religion is a lie
    Wol Euler raises an eyebrow.
    Zon Muhindra: expereince a truth
    Fael Illyar smiles 'Lie is going a bit far with generalizing...'
    SophiaSharon Larnia: interpreting exerience is ususally based on our ideas about it, these may not be truths
    Zon Muhindra: we need diffferent religion stories
    Zon Muhindra: to express our subjective expereinces
    genesis Zhangsun: I agree Zon I don't associate direct experience with religion I associate religion with institutions, many of which were more concerned with power than the truth
    Zon Muhindra: nods
    Fael Illyar: but I have to agree with Gen here :)
    Zon Muhindra: so these kind of religions cannot be same
    Zon Muhindra: ever
    Zon Muhindra: but in deeper sense
    Zon Muhindra: the religious expereince
    Zon Muhindra: is same
    Hana Furlough: is it?
    Zon Muhindra: and if we ralise this
    Zon Muhindra: we smile
    Zon Muhindra: and respect
    Zon Muhindra: the ways others express it
    Pema Pera: it doesn't have to be the exact same, necessarily
    Pema Pera: as in physics, different parts are quite different, both on the level of theory and experiment
    Pema Pera: but any difference, when it shows up, makes physicists look for a wider framework, wide enough to incorporate and respect both
    Pema Pera: rather than narrowing their framework like two islands, each one encircling just one kind of experiment/theory
    Zon Muhindra: if there is oneness behind this diversity that binds it togeter,,the realisation of it is much similar
    Pema Pera: yes, that's a key question
    Pema Pera: to what extent such a oneness can be found, and then can be communicated, respected, agreed upon to a sufficient extent . . . .
    Hana Furlough: but there is also the particular
    Hana Furlough: how shall the particular relate to that oneness?
    Zon Muhindra: wonderful basic question
    Zon Muhindra: lol
    Zon Muhindra: is there oneness and how one becanme many
    Pema Pera: different parts of science are rather different, having their own particular methods, areas of research, as well as "community flavors" and approaches . . . yet they are not in an antogonistic relationship with other parts of science, at least not fundamentally so.
    Hana Furlough: but isn't there some degree of disagreement when it comes to more theoretical aspects of science?
    Pema Pera: in the discovery stage yes
    Zon Muhindra: like..is there consciousness and what is it ?
    Hana Furlough: yes
    Pema Pera: but when differences are found, the first reaction of the scientific community is: wow, there are seemingly very different way to do this calculation, or this experiment, let's see how they are connected
    Pema Pera: and not: let's develop them in great detail separately
    Pema Pera: and independently
    Hana Furlough: so pema, how might this relate to different religious traditions?
    Zon Muhindra: nods..in that respect basic buddhism is very scinetific
    Zon Muhindra: study,,do experiment..see results..dont believe...try ..and learn...i think this is the only common direction
    Zon Muhindra: for religions
    Zon Muhindra: in future
    Pema Pera: yes, Buddhism is and it isn't. it is internally, yes, to quite a large degree. But it strongly denies, say, Hinduist approaches, whereas I wonder whether the deepest no-self insights of Buddhism are not compatible with the deepest higher-self insights of Hinduism, for example
    Zon Muhindra: i think they r
    Zon Muhindra: depth aspect..
    Pema Pera: Hi Yaku!
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
    Wol Euler: hello yaku
    Hana Furlough: recent scholarship is reevaluating the very concept of atman
    Eliza Madrigal: Hello Yakuzza :)
    Stim Morane: Hi yakuzza
    Zon Muhindra: hi Yaku
    Hana Furlough: hi yaku
    genesis Zhangsun: I wonder if science was shielded from power grabs/political projects of the society unlike religion because it relegated itself to the realm of matter, something which is outside of culture whereas the development of religion has been much more embedded in the development of a given society's culture
    genesis Zhangsun: Hi Yaku
    Hana Furlough: yes gen
    Pema Pera: safer, yes
    Hana Furlough: science may also be just an ideological construct
    Pema Pera: in what way, Hana?
    Hana Furlough: in the sense that it has its own set of presuppositions
    Hana Furlough: as does any religious/philosophical tradition
    genesis Zhangsun: ha perhaps science is the religion of the west :)
    Hana Furlough: yes
    Pema Pera: yes, the choice of topics, the approaches, the notations, are all culture bound, but what science finds in terms of reproducible phenomena really does seem universal
    Hana Furlough: but it tends to discount or exclude things it cannot measure
    Pema Pera: a cell phone works, whether or not you buy into the culture that produced it
    Wol Euler grins
    Pema Pera: oh sure, it is definitely limited
    Pema Pera: that is its main strength
    genesis Zhangsun: yes but is a cell phone "science"?
    Pema Pera: it grows very very slowly like a hardwood tree
    Pema Pera: it is based on science, like the equations of electromagnetism
    Hana Furlough: so there's no room for a 'sudden' approach?
    Zon Muhindra: science can only study measureble ?
    Zon Muhindra: measurable = matter
    Pema Pera: there are jumps, paradigm shifts, but they are followed by a long integration period . . . . on a collective level somewhat like what contemplative approaches see happening on an individual level
    Hana Furlough: smiles
    Pema Pera: scientists are boddhisattvas, postponing ultimate insight until all their fellow scientists are on the same page :)
    Wol Euler laughs. Nice.
    Hana Furlough: lol
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hello Lila
    Pema Pera: yes, Zon, but what counts as measurable is evolving
    Zon Muhindra: the scientific method is the right one to me
    PhilNS Schumann: smiles to the definition of "right" .. still
    Zon Muhindra: but how to study conscuoisnes
    Hana Furlough: right
    Zon Muhindra: which cant be measured
    PhilNS Schumann: always thought science is just one of the many way to perceive and observe the world.. a point of view worth like another
    Hana Furlough: this is an interestig questin
    Pema Pera: nice to meet you Lila!
    Lila Sideways: thank you
    Fael Illyar: Hello Lila :)
    genesis Zhangsun: hi lila
    Zon Muhindra: science percieves outside
    Stim Morane: hi lisa
    Stim Morane: Lila, sorry
    Pema Pera: so far, yes, Zon
    Lila Sideways: thank you for the welcome
    SophiaSharon Larnia: (slips away quietly... interesting conversation, bye for now!)
    Wol Euler: bye SS, take care
    Pema Pera: we're a friendly bunch Lila
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    Zon Muhindra: true religion or meditation inside
    genesis Zhangsun: I want to go back to the notion of cell phone as science
    Hana Furlough: me too
    Lila Sideways: bye all
    Wol Euler: bye lila
    Lila Sideways: i am taking zon away
    Stim Morane: Must go also ... Thanks, everyone!
    Wol Euler: bye stim, zon
    Zon Muhindra: interesting discussion, ty all, gtg, bye
    Eliza Madrigal: bye lila and zon and Stim :)
    Stim Morane: Bye!
    genesis Zhangsun: bye Stim
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Stim, zon
    Pema Pera: Bye Stim!
    genesis Zhangsun: so okay cell phones as a product of science but I would not say "science" hold universal truth because cell phones work
    Bertram Jacobus: i´ll take a look to the hikari group ... have a good time all , ty and may all beings be happy please
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Bertram, be happy too :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Bertram
    Wol Euler: bye bertram
    Bertram Jacobus: ty eliza. yes : i´m a being too ... :-))
    Eliza Madrigal: ;-)
    Bertram Jacobus: ty again all :-)
    Qt Core: bye bert
    Scathach Rhiadra: good night all:)
    PhilNS Schumann: bye Bert
    genesis Zhangsun: I could say certain law are "universal" because technically if exported from one country to another country they would "work" the same way, as in they would provide the same technical result
    Pema Pera: no, rather science is more than just fashion or opinion: science at least has grabbed on to something real enough to let cell phones work -- but of course there can be much more than science that is also real
    genesis Zhangsun: I just think there is more to scientific truth than cell phones :)
    Wol Euler: yes, of course.
    genesis Zhangsun: just because it "works" doesn't mean it is "true"
    Pema Pera: of course there is; I used it as a way to show that science is more than fashion or opinion
    Fael Illyar: cell phones are an application of the knowledge. not the knowledge itself, nor the way to get it
    Pema Pera: not "true" in an ultimate way, but showing that some piece of reality has been uncovered
    Pema Pera: fantasy or just opinion wouldn't let you communicate over large distances
    Pema Pera: and yes, to the extent that a system of law could be made to work universally, it would really then have uncovered something univeral about human beings
    Pema Pera: *universal
    Hana Furlough: are you sure about that?
    Hana Furlough: the fantasy/opinion comment
    Hana Furlough: : )
    Pema Pera: try it :)
    Hana Furlough: ok i'll report back : )
    Pema Pera: looking forward -- but please via a standard channel as well :)
    genesis Zhangsun: in science it is much easier than law
    genesis Zhangsun: I guess its in the defining what "works"
    genesis Zhangsun: order was reversed there
    Hana Furlough: will do
    Pema Pera: (I'll have to go to a talk in RL now . . . )
    genesis Zhangsun: okay cheers
    Pema Pera: bye everybody!
    genesis Zhangsun: I will be going too
    Wol Euler: to be continued?
    Hana Furlough: me thre
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Pema, Genesis :)
    Pema Pera: sure!
    PhilNS Schumann: bye Pema
    Qt Core: bye bema
    Hana Furlough: bye everyone~
    Fael Illyar: bye pema, Gen :)
    genesis Zhangsun: bye everyone :)
    Pema Pera: happy to, Wol
    Wol Euler: goodngiht everyone, take care, be happy.
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Hana, all :)
    genesis Zhangsun: nice to see you all
    Eliza Madrigal: Be Happy too Wol :)
    Eliza Madrigal: And all :)
    Wol Euler: I'll do my very best.
    PhilNS Schumann: nighty to all
    Fael Illyar: have fun everyone :)
    Fael Illyar waves.
    Qt Core: 'night
    Qt Core: ok, bye

    Tag page (Edit tags)
    You must login to post a comment.
    Powered by MindTouch Core