2009.10.22 13:00 - "Fast" asleep

The Guardian for this meeting was due to be Storm Nordwind, but he and Pema Pera and genesis Zhangsun needed to go into a real life meeting in Princeton. However, others acted as guardians and Pema grabbed the autologger url and passed it to Storm. The brief comments here and below are Storm's.

Qt Core: hi Pema
Pema Pera: Hi Qt!
Pema Pera: Thanks for your comments on the email list!
Pema Pera: I'm glad you brought those points up -- it is very important to be as clear as we can
Qt Core: for once i had something to say that i was able to put down
Qt Core: sometimes i want to say something but as it is unclear to myself writing it down, especially in another language is impossible
Pema Pera: Hi Fox
Pema Pera: oh, yes, I know, Qt
Qt Core: hi Fox
Pema Pera: it is hard enough to talk about these kinds of things in your own language !
Pema Pera: Hi Bert
Bertram Jacobus: hello fox, pema and qt ! :-)
Qt Core: hi bert
Fox Monacular: Hi Pema, Qt, Bertram

Pema makes our excuses.

Pema Pera: btw, Storm and Gen and I are all here in the same room, in RL
Pema Pera: Storm and Gen are visiting Princeton for a short time
Pema Pera: and we would like to use the time to sit outside and talk a bit more
Bertram Jacobus: whaow - already retreat real time meeting time in princeton pema ? :-)
Qt Core: i had a couple friends (married) chatting with me and others from their home and two pcs
Pema Pera: so if you don't mind, Storm won't come in, and neither will Gen and I. I already grabbed the log for today and will give it to Storm
Qt Core: it was funne read them
Mickorod Renard: hi
Bertram Jacobus: okay. enjoy the garden and greetings to the others pema !
Qt Core: hi Mick
Fox Monacular: Hi Mick
Qt Core: and hi Vendy too
Bertram Jacobus: hi mick :-)
Mickorod Renard: Hi Vendy
Vendy Walpole: Hello Pema, Qt, Bertram, Fox and Mic
Bertram Jacobus: and vendy :-)
Fox Monacular: Hi Vendy
Mickorod Renard: Hi Guys
Vendy Walpole takes a deep breath
Vendy Walpole: :)

Pema briefly mentions how we'd had a whole bunch of real life PaBers around the same table for lunch. (Or had the six of us briefly logged on briefly to real life? ;)

Pema Pera: In fact we had a whole bunch of avatars typists for lunch today: Stim, Storm, Adams, Hana, Gen, and me: six guardians around one table!
Pema Pera: Hi Vendy
Vendy Walpole runs to drink water
Pema Pera: sorry Vendy, have to leave for RL now
Pema Pera: bfn
Mickorod Renard: bye pema

And, unseen, we all leave for our meeting.

Bertram Jacobus: i did the same some time ago qt : was in sl with my rl girl friend - with two computers, side by side ... :-)
Mickorod Renard: a great session about dream paral,,Fox,,the other day
Vendy Walpole: /sits back
Mickorod Renard: strangely I had just read an article in new scientist avbout it a few days earlier
Bertram Jacobus: dream paral ? what is that please ?
Mickorod Renard: dream paralysis

Dream paralysis may be caused by the effect of hormones (or lack thereof) interfering with nerve action in the muscles. The topic of conversation for this session seems to gravitate towards sleep and dreams. It's interesting and needs no extra comment from me, except to say that the title for this session is a pun on the word "fast".

Vendy Walpole: I'm not sure I understand, can you explain it please?
Fox Monacular: sorry, everyone, had to answer the phone, now I'm back
Fox Monacular: :)
Mickorod Renard: some folk wake up to find they are unable to move or speak for some minutes
Fox Monacular: thanks for coming to the session:)
Fox Monacular: yes:)
Mickorod Renard: all my pleasure
Fox Monacular: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleep_paralysis
Vendy Walpole: what is the reason for that? Is it known?
Mickorod Renard: there are difering extremes of it
Qt Core: is that a mishap of the things that prevent us to go walk around while sleeping ?
Fox Monacular: it's quite a common phenomenon
Fox Monacular: mich like nightmares
Fox Monacular: or lucid dreams
Qt Core: (if we dream about walking, that is)
Fox Monacular: no real cause that I know of
Fox Monacular: but there are triggers
Vendy Walpole: They are totaly aware but can't move?
Fox Monacular: kind of, there are paralyzed but aware and sort of awake
Mickorod Renard: I believe so,,I have had some experience of it
--BELL--
Fox Monacular: and often start to hallycinate
Vendy Walpole: Mick, you say it happened to you...how long it lasted and what you felt exactly?
Mickorod Renard: I could relate 2 examples I have had personaly,,both quite diferent
Mickorod Renard: one involved a very emotional deream about a mother who had lost her child
Mickorod Renard: the childs name was important and unusual
Mickorod Renard: I knew i had to relate it imeadiately to my sleeping partner
Mickorod Renard: but on awakening which i forced,,for fear of waking normally with no memory
Mickorod Renard: I found my body frozen and unable to talk too#
Fox Monacular: interesting
Mickorod Renard: eventually I did manage it ,,
Fox Monacular: how did you shake it off?
Mickorod Renard: a yaer later the girl was reported missing,,still not found
Mickorod Renard: I just persisted,,my partner had awoken because i was able to mumble#
Mickorod Renard: and make some noise
Mickorod Renard: the dream was profound,,so I knew it was special
Fox Monacular: yes
Mickorod Renard: on another occadsion
Mickorod Renard: after enduring several days without sleep or food
Fox Monacular: how di that happen to you?
Mickorod Renard: I awaoke to find a wieght on me
Mickorod Renard: thats a drawn out story
Mickorod Renard: but it was very spooky
Mickorod Renard: I had tried to force off the intruding force,,but found i was without strength
Fox Monacular: why did you go without food or sleep?
Mickorod Renard: it was circumstancial
Fox Monacular: osme
Mickorod Renard: rather not say
Fox Monacular: some peple refer to at incubus
Fox Monacular: a demon that sits on your chest
Mickorod Renard: but the feeling of presence was surely some kind of halucination too
Fox Monacular: but sleep deprivation and irregular sleep patterns as well as stress are known to foster SP
Mickorod Renard: at first i wasnt scared cos i thought it was my cat
Vendy Walpole: :)
Fox Monacular: demonic cat
Mickorod Renard: but then realised it wasnt
Vendy Walpole: what you thought then what it was?
Yakuzza Lethecus: good evening
Mickorod Renard: but I was rational enough to dismiss that ocasion due to the background circs
Vendy Walpole: Hello Yakuzza
Mickorod Renard: hi Yaku
Mickorod Renard: I also heard a dreadful sound
Mickorod Renard: it was proberbly me in my sleep
Qt Core: a couple related link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/REM_ato...y_of_REM_sleep
Mickorod Renard: thanks QT
Qt Core: and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dream_paralysis
Qt Core: the second seems spot on
Qt Core: hi Yak, ara
Mickorod Renard: great thanks
Mickorod Renard: hi ara
arabella Ella: Hiya
Vendy Walpole: As you are talking of this, I am recalling a few moments when happened I felt I can't move in awaken state..when I had a huge fear in me..simply could not move nor speak out..as we use to say I was frozen
Vendy Walpole: probably you felt the same sometimes?
Fox Monacular: yes, the second link describes that phenomenone
Fox Monacular: yes, sounds are quite common too
--BELL--
Vendy Walpole: so, I see it can happen in dream too
Fox Monacular: sounds like it could be SP
Mickorod Renard: I have had similar experiences of becoming stationary due to shock
Mickorod Renard: something that I found a worrying aspect
Mickorod Renard: I always thought I had sufficient precence of mind to react appropriately
Mickorod Renard: oops
Vendy Walpole: Yes, me too but seems we lose the connection between the mind and body when we are under big stress?
Vendy Walpole: the mind can't control the body
Fox Monacular: I think there is a continuity between waking and dreaming states
Fox Monacular: we found in one of our studies that people who are distressed by presence hallucinations
Fox Monacular: also fear being observed in waking life
Mickorod Renard: ohh,,thats interesting
Fox Monacular: and imagine more 'presences' in waking life too
Fox Monacular: for instance they are more prone to imagining faces in ambiguous shapes
Bolonath Crystal: namaste @ all :)
Mickorod Renard: hiyaBol
Vendy Walpole: namaste
Fox Monacular: also, distress related to sleep paralysis was connected to distress related to nightmares and to social anxiety
Qt Core: hi bolonath
arabella Ella: Hiya Bolonath
Fox Monacular: as if there was a popensity for this experiences of 'others' as traumatic
Fox Monacular: Hi Bolonath
Mickorod Renard: yes, i can imagine
Fox Monacular: but then there are people who have a lot of nightmares and sleep paralysis ans are not traumatised
Yakuzza Lethecus: hi bolo
Vendy Walpole: May I ask what is the field you explore Fox?
Fox Monacular: so then it's a whole other profile
Fox Monacular: I'm working in the dream and nightmare lab
Fox Monacular: sleep psychophysiology
Vendy Walpole: Interesting
Fox Monacular: yes, very interesting:)
Vendy Walpole: There was a discuaaion - leacture about how much the lack of sleeping affects the brain in SL today
Vendy Walpole: I was not able to attend
Yakuzza Lethecus: where was that one ?
Vendy Walpole: Nature's event
Vendy Walpole: a hour ago or more
Fox Monacular: interesting
Mickorod Renard: yes,,sleep is a great repairer
Vendy Walpole: but we can be upset in sleep as well
Mickorod Renard: I must admit to not sleeping much
Vendy Walpole: and stressed
Yakuzza Lethecus: i will only have 4:30 hrs sleep tonight if i attend the wok session
Yakuzza Lethecus: and i really think about SL brought me to more sleep deprivation
arabella Ella: do you wake up so early Yaku?
arabella Ella: ouch
Yakuzza Lethecus: i have to be at work a 6 am
Mickorod Renard: poor Yaku,,u can read up the logs..its not worth wrecking yourself over
Yakuzza Lethecus: i have to get up at 4:30
arabella Ella: terrible
Yakuzza Lethecus: gmt +1
arabella Ella: CET
Yakuzza Lethecus: it´s great, if SL event´s wouldn´t be so late :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: so i am already at home at 2 pm
Yakuzza Lethecus: CET right
Mickorod Renard: I could have slept in all day today,,a rare oportunity,,but I awaoke ready to go to work at the usual time,,I cant lie in if i wanted
arabella Ella: concerning sleep and dreaming ... i find it fascinating that there are so many different attitudes ... some people get their batteries re-charged, others find it stressful
Fox Monacular: RL calls, I'll be away for a few min
Fox Monacular: sorry
Mickorod Renard: c u soon fox
Vendy Walpole: I believe that dreams are the mirror of our state
Qt Core: my dream and dream remembering level is a sure misure of the mental fatigue i had in the previous day, i almost don't dream usually
Qt Core: but the harder the day the weirder the dreams
arabella Ella: i dream a lot but tend to forget my dreams very quickly
Vendy Walpole: I have read that all people dream but some do not remember that
Vendy Walpole: Fox can say if that is true
Bolonath Crystal: i also forget my dreams rather quickly
Bolonath Crystal: usually
Mickorod Renard: I did remember many dreams,,but these days I am too short of sleep to have an oportunity to remember them
Bolonath Crystal: some seem to be more impressive than others
Vendy Walpole: ISometimes it happens I know that i dream while I dream..that is interesting
arabella Ella: i also wonder why some people tend to need more sleep than others
Mickorod Renard: also I am in the habit of getting up and showered as soon as I wake
Bolonath Crystal: yes, that's verx strange, vendy
Bolonath Crystal: very*
arabella Ella: i do too Vendy but only when i am in the state of half wakefulness
--BELL--
Mickorod Renard: yes,,that can be scary too,,I have awakened in a dream and found it disturbing cos it was wierd yet I thought I was awake,,,but wasnt
Qt Core: sometimes i feel about being the spectator not just be the one seeing the dream and usually ewhen that happen the dream start going weird and weird util i refuse to follow it anymore and awoke
arabella Ella: i can recognise that feeling too Qt
Mickorod Renard: my awake life is like that QT
Vendy Walpole: :)
Qt Core: i usually end up with a feeling that is humorous about the weird but angry at the too weird part
Bolonath Crystal: often as soon as i realise that i am dreaming, i wake up
Vendy Walpole: Some dreams are so deatailed, too real that it is scary
Vendy Walpole: Whole world as we sleep we create
Vendy Walpole: isn't it fascinating?
Qt Core: and some are so beautifully weird you'll remember them all your life
Mickorod Renard: yes,,very facinating
Bolonath Crystal: isn't it the same when we are wake?
Vendy Walpole: I don't think so
arabella Ella: its amazing how the brain works when we sleep to create all those scenarios
Vendy Walpole: yes
Mickorod Renard: I still long to ask the characters in my dreams who they are
Vendy Walpole: Spilberg perhaps gets his ideas in his dreams :))
arabella Ella: sci fi writers too
Vendy Walpole: (sorry do not know the right spelling of his name)
arabella Ella: :)
Vendy Walpole: we write as we speak :)
Mickorod Renard: we know who u mean vendy
Vendy Walpole: I know you know
Vendy Walpole: chuckles
arabella Ella: there are quite a few stories about people who came up with creative ideas in dreams
arabella Ella: coleridge when writing kubla khan
arabella Ella: was on opium
Bolonath Crystal: we create the world while we are awake, by putting together perceptions. dreams are made more or less the same way. i am not really sure that the difference is as big as we think
arabella Ella: and i think it was poincaire who came up with the idea of the benzine ring while asleep as he saw a snake bite its tail
Mickorod Renard: I read the other day that many were hypercondiacs too
Fox Monacular: back more or less now, sorry about that
Mickorod Renard: they used illness to create a reason to stay in bed and during that time wrote#
Fox Monacular: I think that dreaming and waking are not really separate things
Fox Monacular: there are many stories of insights in dreaming, quite amaxing
Mickorod Renard: where do u think it comes from fox?
Fox Monacular: well, sleeo and dreaming have something to do with memory consolidation
Mickorod Renard: I wondered if there is a connection open during sleep between others
Fox Monacular: there are many studies now showing that
arabella Ella: could you expand on memory consolidation please Fox?
Qt Core: pieces of day's experiences being randomly connected in the brain and sometimes the connections make semse
Mickorod Renard: is it where the memory compatmenalises the junk during sleep?
Fox Monacular: well, there are different stages of sleep, roughly REM and non REM, and there are studies that show that depending on selective deprivation certain tasks improve or not ater sleep
Fox Monacular: perhaps sp, Mick
Fox Monacular: there are processes that happen in one night, in a week, month...
Fox Monacular: and sleep has something to do with it
Bolonath Crystal: sorry. my stupid mind was temporarily creating a universe without internet connection
arabella Ella: :)
Mickorod Renard: like fork lift drivers in the night shift,,moving boxes around in a storage yard
Fox Monacular: robert Stickgold and Matt Walked have done quite a few studies on that
Fox Monacular: and it's a very hot topic nowadays
Qt Core: no lag then, bolonath ;-)
Fox Monacular: my husband for instance works on sleep and memory
Bolonath Crystal: i heard that it is in fact possible to learn while sleeping
Mickorod Renard: I find it a little worrying that people with alseimers often didnt slleep much during their lives
arabella Ella: i must go to Wok now at Kira ... bye all
Vendy Walpole: What do you think Fox of the scientific news (recently) that people who sleep longer than 7-8h live shorter?!
Bolonath Crystal: bye ara, om shanti
Fox Monacular: I must go too
--BELL--
Vendy Walpole: Bye ara
Fox Monacular: thank you everyone
Mickorod Renard: ohh yes wok,,me too
Mickorod Renard: thanks Fox,,and all
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye everyone
Bolonath Crystal bows silently
Vendy Walpole: Bye
Qt Core: be
Qt Core: bye
Bolonath Crystal: bye qt