2009.10.24 19:00 - Sustainability, 9 Seconds at a Time

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Pema Pera. The comments are by Pema Pera.

    doug Sosa: hi pema.
    Pema Pera: hi Doug
    Pema Pera: greetings from Genesis, Storm, and Caledonia, who are here in RL kibitzing with me
    doug Sosa: Ah, what a great crew!
    doug Sosa: several of us, eos, pila, paradise, fox and steve have been meeting at 8, or let's say i have joined hem at 8.
    Pema Pera: at 8 this morning?
    doug Sosa: no, evening, quiet time.
    Pema Pera: but it is 7 now?
    doug Sosa: yes, i came just before cooking dinner!
    Pema Pera: hi Pila!
    doug Sosa: I've called "second shift."
    Pema Pera: sorry, I still don't understand about 8 pm?
    Pema Pera: yesterday?
    Pila Mulligan: hello Pema and Doug
    Pema Pera: hi Pila!
    doug Sosa: oh, that we have continued the 7 pm meeting on into the darker hours.
    doug Sosa: :)
    doug Sosa: Pila, i was describing our 8pm meetings, when i have joined you.
    Pema Pera: which days of the week?
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    doug Sosa: So interesting. Pema is with four i think others but only one avatar.
    Pila Mulligan: consolidated Being
    doug Sosa: Most I'd say.
    Pema Pera: where do you meet?
    doug Sosa: I came then because i just couldn't make it earlier, and there we were, and continued.
    doug Sosa: right here.
    Pema Pera: and several nights?
    doug Sosa: It must be in the chat log, no?
    Pema Pera: as a tradition?
    doug Sosa: Like topsy, jut growed.
    Pila Mulligan: yes, but it is just a second phase of the same session
    doug Sosa: just
    doug Sosa: right.
    I conveyed some greetings from my neighbors in RL to my neighbors in SL.
    Pema Pera: Pila, greetings from Gen, Cal, Storm, who are sitting next to me in RL
    Pema Pera: sipping their beer
    Pema Pera: in Princeton
    doug Sosa: at the institute, down in town?
    Pema Pera: in the guest house
    Pema Pera: between the Institute and downtown
    Pila Mulligan: greetings to Gen, Cal, Storm
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pema Pera: "oh, Pila" said Cal
    doug Sosa: Where I came across the revolutionary army one winter snowy day.
    Pila Mulligan: hi Steve
    Pema Pera: Storm made some rather incoherent sounds
    Pema Pera: Gen giggled
    Pila Mulligan: hi Arch
    Pema Pera: hi Arch and Steve
    doug Sosa: hi.
    Archmage Atlantis: Rather late for you Pema
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello
    Archmage Atlantis: Hi Pila, Steve, Doug
    stevenaia Michinaga: waiting for pillows to appear
    Pila Mulligan: I remember sipping a beer in Princeton 40 years ago, in a previous lifetime
    Archmage Atlantis: Time for a new internet provider and a PC with a faster video card
    Pila Mulligan: it was some pub very popular with students then
    Pema Pera: we now have a microbrewery
    Pema Pera: Annex?
    Pila Mulligan: yes
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    doug Sosa: We harvard types thought it was just vermouth down there.
    Pila Mulligan: still there
    Pema Pera: wow, great memory!
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pema Pera: yup
    doug Sosa: so it wouldn't spill on the ties.
    Archmage Atlantis: Now I remember why we didn't hire any of you people, all think and no do
    Archmage Atlantis: *joke*
    doug Sosa: Which brings me to the point..
    doug Sosa: shall i bring in an issue?
    Pema Pera: sure
    doug Sosa: Our sustainability project at stnaford is growing fast, and i feel a responsibility to keep up morale, even when the facts of the matter deem dire. Feels like a painful contraadiction
    doug Sosa: to be resolved by the 9 sec :)
    doug Sosa: Not my morale, the grad students.
    Archmage Atlantis: This will take more belief than 9 seconds, 9 minutes or nine days
    Doug brought up an interesting question.
    doug Sosa: So how might the practice of the 9 weave into the project and the way of thinking.
    Archmage Atlantis: How has humanity continued this 60K years
    Archmage Atlantis: What are we about
    --BELL--
    Pila Mulligan: one factoid, Arch, is that prior to 1800 the world's population was measured in millions, not billions -- the past 300 years are an unusual epoch in that regard
    Archmage Atlantis: Yes, we solved the food shortage, only to provide more people to eat
    Pila Mulligan: so now smart minds work on that
    doug Sosa: Back to the issue. Am I lying to the students and faculty whn i say we are looking for a path when i don't think there is one?
    Archmage Atlantis: Can't stop sex, childbirth, with a smart mind
    Archmage Atlantis: No Doug, you don't lie
    Pema Pera: the problem is that everything is interrelated: politics, economics, ecology . . . .
    Pema Pera: you can't solve one without the other
    doug Sosa: Yes, now how to bring the 9 sec into that? Because the its all interconnected leads to only one answer.
    stevenaia Michinaga: there are always many paths, jsut a matter of seeing them... in time
    Archmage Atlantis: That, Steve, and accepting the answer
    stevenaia Michinaga: that of a creative optimist
    Pila Mulligan: Doug, do your students have regular group meetigs?
    Archmage Atlantis: Well one way would be listing the disasters by priority
    stevenaia Michinaga: brainstorming sessions might be a place to line up the idea, 9 seconds at a time
    doug Sosa: Yes, we have just started, the interest is intense. We have now four regular weekly meetns, and a gallery where we can display graphics that lay out the scenarios.
    Pila Mulligan: how many people attend
    Pila Mulligan: ?
    Archmage Atlantis: Grad students have just finished complete brain development
    doug Sosa: we have over a hundred total in two week.
    Pila Mulligan: nice
    doug Sosa: weeks..
    Archmage Atlantis: 25 to 29
    Pila Mulligan: so PaB goes RL already
    doug Sosa: 25 to 29?
    stevenaia Michinaga: the trick is getting them not to hold abck the crazy ideas
    Archmage Atlantis: Just in time, thanks to Pema
    Archmage Atlantis: The trick is to allow the crazy ideas
    doug Sosa: They are pretty good at the ideas, but the facts of having passed the co2 tipping point, of ocean acidification, of one billion alread lacking suffecient food..
    doug Sosa: The tendency is to look to security atgainst loss of property, and tech soltuions that can at least make money.
    doug Sosa: The discouragement wiht obama is intense.
    stevenaia Michinaga: so where do you get a CO2 eating , food producing ocean de-acidifying solution
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    Archmage Atlantis: They are young
    Pila Mulligan: I'd say a 90 second pause every 15 minutes during the meetings is a more likely starting place, since they already have the meeting itself as their purpose -- they may recongize the balancing effect
    doug Sosa: As it says in the dao, the universe is not benevolent. it treats people like straw dogs. The sage is not benevolent, he treats the people as straw dogs.
    Archmage Atlantis: We stay with them as their grandparents would have in a simpler day
    doug Sosa: We also have faculty groups. Our view is the science is good, the politics is not, so what do we do? People want to talk about this.
    Archmage Atlantis: Well, politics is good
    doug Sosa: the 90 sec is a real possibility. We have talked aboutthe difference betweeen ameeting tocome a conclusion and a meeting to have a conversation.
    Pema Pera: HI Mary
    Pila Mulligan: Alexander the Great had his detractors too, politics is rrely as romantic as our optimism
    Archmage Atlantis: It is a public forum
    Pila Mulligan: ite been like that forever
    Archmage Atlantis: anyway
    Archmage Atlantis: Well, 60K
    Pila Mulligan: Doug, I think one solution is micro deomstration projects
    Pila Mulligan: do it yourself
    Archmage Atlantis: At least the genetics say that
    doug Sosa: I try the 9 sec in meetings, privately of course (so far).
    --BELL--
    Mary Korpov: I don'thave to do 9 or 90 seconds in meetings; I just dn't pay attention in general
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Archmage Atlantis: Harvey Milk, who was no saint, changed the world for us who are gay
    Archmage Atlantis: Now Diane Feinstein is next to the Pres
    Archmage Atlantis: Belief
    Archmage Atlantis: in a future that is different
    stevenaia Michinaga: perhaps it's time to let the cat out of the bag and do a group 9 secs during your meeting
    By this time I joined my friends present in RL, and said goodbye to SL.  Since I was not present for the rest of the session, I did not try to comment it.
    Pema Pera: I'm returning to RL, Gen and Storm and Cal wish you all good night!
    doug Sosa: i hear dinner isready, gotta go.
    Pema Pera: bye for now!
    stevenaia Michinaga: bye Pema
    Archmage Atlantis: That and being willing to stay
    stevenaia Michinaga: that was a nice streach script Pema had :)
    Mary Korpov: Streach?
    Archmage Atlantis: Agree Steve
    Archmage Atlantis: Very human of him
    stevenaia Michinaga: stretch
    Mary Korpov: What's a stretch script?
    stevenaia Michinaga: scripts are like dancing or walking
    Mary Korpov: Oh, I see
    stevenaia Michinaga: pema had one that did a strech
    Archmage Atlantis: A script is a a little bit of programming
    Mary Korpov: I know what a script is, I just thought there was some special thing called a "stretch script"
    stevenaia Michinaga: a good stretch is hard to find
    Archmage Atlantis: Sorry Mary, I am used to a world in business where people do not understand the basics
    Archmage Atlantis: Being around intelligent people is a luxury that has come late for me
    stevenaia Michinaga: it sould be interesting if a rgoup doing a 9 second meditation on a problem could result in a solution faster or more creatively
    Mary Korpov: When were you last around some intelligent people?
    stevenaia Michinaga: like multiprocessing
    Archmage Atlantis: My parents, I think, Mary
    stevenaia Michinaga: I find that creativity usually is a linear process building on one idea after another
    Mary Korpov: interesting, I find that creativity is a non-linear process in which ideas intermingle and intertwine to generate something new
    Pila Mulligan is going to slip away now also
    Mary Korpov: bye
    Pila Mulligan: bye for now
    stevenaia Michinaga: depending on the problem at hand
    stevenaia Michinaga: but yes, even that you said is linear and incremental
    Mary Korpov: I didn't really understand that ,Steve
    Archmage Atlantis: Mary, when I got here (PaB) there were 5 or 6 males evenly spaced around the circle
    stevenaia Michinaga: you can assimilate concepts creating a new direction, them another, then another
    Mary Korpov: OK, Archie, but I'm not sure I see the importance of that
    stevenaia Michinaga: a building process
    Archmage Atlantis: You joined us to the outside of the circle, Mary
    Mary Korpov: so
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: randomness can be read as patterns?
    Archmage Atlantis: So, do you ever see anyone here who is black, asian, animal?
    Mary Korpov: What does that have to do with where I'm sitting?
    Mary Korpov: And how do you know that I'm not Asian or Black? I am an animal, as are both of you.
    Archmage Atlantis: I always chose to sit outside the circle in business
    Archmage Atlantis: So I could influence, but not accept responsibility
    Mary Korpov: So do you think there is a psychological reason why I chose to sit outside the circle?
    Archmage Atlantis: Yes Mary, I do
    Mary Korpov: And what is it
    stevenaia Michinaga: I usually sit in the middle so I don;t miss anything
    --BELL--
    Fox Monacular: Hello Archmage, Mary, Steve
    Mary Korpov: hi
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Fox
    Archmage Atlantis: I can, and did, tell you my reason......only you can provide your reason, if there is one......or tell me to take a long walk off a short pier
    Mary Korpov: I'm undergoing psychoanalysis, join us
    Fox Monacular: you're undergoing psychoanaysis here?:)
    Mary Korpov: You told me the reason you sit where you sit, not my reason. You said you think I have a reason, what do you think it is?
    Mary Korpov: I do have a reason, and I wonder if it matches what you are thinking. You must have an idea, or you would not have brought this up.
    Archmage Atlantis: I have a friend, she happens to be female, she thinks in prior lives she was male
    Mary Korpov: So what does that have to do with where I'm sitting
    Archmage Atlantis: She tells me being male was easier
    Archmage Atlantis: It has to do with taking a place at the table
    Mary Korpov: So, I am guessing that you believe that I want to sit on the outside
    Archmage Atlantis: You chose where you sit
    stevenaia Michinaga: it is unfortunate that there are "places" at a circular tabe because there are two rows of pillows
    Mary Korpov: And you chose to interpret that, but don't seem to want to directly share that interpretation
    stevenaia Michinaga: but we each see meaning for ourselves
    Fox Monacular: chosing where to sit can have different meanings at different times
    Mary Korpov: indeed
    Mary Korpov: But in SL it makes no difference; it's just a bunch of pixels
    Fox Monacular: I think it makes a difference even in SL
    Fox Monacular: you still decide where to sit
    Archmage Atlantis: As I said, as a man, I know I would only sit "outside" if I did not feel I could directly influence the outcome
    Mary Korpov: Where I am sitting right now is in my living room with a football game on the TV
    Mary Korpov: Well, Archie, here's the deep psychological motivation for where I chose to sit.
    stevenaia Michinaga: who;s winning? (the place of power, knowledge)
    Archmage Atlantis: Yes, and calling me "Archie" is a way of indirectly belittling me
    Mary Korpov: When I arrived, there were sentences running across most of the screen. I didn't want to click on the blackened areas with text. So I moved a bit to the right. I then picked the first blue pillow I saw. I always pick blue because I think the brown ones are ugly. And I always sit ont he outside because it is closer than the inside ring.
    Mary Korpov: Not really, Archie, it's just shorter than the whole thing. I'm a pragmatist.
    Archmage Atlantis: Most call me Arch
    Mary Korpov: THat's even easier, Arch. But Arch seems like a component of a building, while Archie seems like a name. So I chose Archie becuase it seemed less likely to offend than Arch.
    Mary Korpov: You aren't real good at this psychoanalysis stuff are you.
    Fox Monacular: In my early undergrad times before I found the lab I'm working in now, I worked one summer in a supermarket, where a tiny angry supervisor decided that my name was too long
    Mary Korpov: Did you come up with a good name for him, Fox?
    Fox Monacular: so instead of calling me ELizaveta, he said it was too complicated and that he decide to call me Eli
    Archmage Atlantis: No, 20 years of therapy to deal with the gay thing did not teach me much
    Fox Monacular: he did not ask me
    Fox Monacular: usuallly people would call me Liza
    Fox Monacular: so because he decided himself, I never said anything, but never responded to Eli either
    Mary Korpov: I've never really cared much about what people call me
    Fox Monacular: which would really angry him ,and he complained to the manager
    Mary Korpov: did you get fired?
    Fox Monacular: to whom I explained that this was not even my name
    Fox Monacular: no, actually he was reprimanded
    Fox Monacular: and never behaved this way with me again
    Mary Korpov: I figure it doesnt' matter what I'm called. I didn't pick my name in any case.
    Mary Korpov: I actually dislike my RL name.
    Fox Monacular: As an immigrant in another country I became much more sensitive to my real name
    Archmage Atlantis: But you didn't pick your SL first name, Mary?
    Archmage Atlantis: They let me pick mine
    Mary Korpov: Mary was just the first thing that came to mind.
    Mary Korpov: I meant that I didn't pick my RL name--Georgia
    --BELL--
    Mary Korpov: I'm quite small and thin, having a name that reminds one of a state seems rather unpleasant to me
    Fox Monacular: Hi Doug
    stevenaia Michinaga: I must be off
    Mary Korpov: bye
    Fox Monacular: take care Steve
    doug Sosa: hey. bye steve, relay.
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    Mary Korpov: So Fox, which Commonwealth are you a member of? Massachusetts? Pennsylvania?
    Fox Monacular: I wish I knew, I just joined the group last night
    Mary Korpov: I'm a member of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts; where I live
    Fox Monacular: there is a Commonwealth island in SL, looks interesting
    Fox Monacular: I keep hearing about it from various people, so I decided to check it out, but it was too late, nobody was there
    Mary Korpov: Now you are cultivating...
    Fox Monacular: just activated a more relevant group... this one
    Archmage Atlantis: My mentor in business just joined Facebook
    Archmage Atlantis: He is about 80
    Fox Monacular: sometimes it can mean bad news:)
    Archmage Atlantis: His grandson helped him
    Mary Korpov: FB is kind of annoying. I've hidden almost all of my "friends"
    Archmage Atlantis: I knew her as Julie
    Fox Monacular: some of my profs are on facebook too... I have to be careful about what i say
    Mary Korpov: Do your profs become friends with you on FB?
    Archmage Atlantis: Now she is his grandson, not his granddaughter
    Fox Monacular: yes:)
    Mary Korpov: I refuse to accept friendship offers from students
    Archmage Atlantis: He retired from business to become an evangelical preacher
    Archmage Atlantis: First he went back to college to earn the degree
    Mary Korpov: Wow, that's certainly is downward mobility
    Fox Monacular: interesting story, Archaz
    Fox Monacular: sorry, baby on the keyboard
    Archmage Atlantis: Not to him, Mary, it was upward in his perception
    Mary Korpov: Anything evangelical seems very much downward to me
    Mary Korpov: I ran into an evangelical Buddhist today; that was a hoot.
    Archmage Atlantis: Yes, that is a judgement
    Mary Korpov: Everything is a judgment
    Fox Monacular: how did his family react?
    Archmage Atlantis: I try not to judge, I often fail,
    Mary Korpov: whose?
    Fox Monacular: of the person Archmage was talking about?
    Archmage Atlantis: He is the one in the family all others follow, Fox
    Archmage Atlantis: He accepted, so they accept
    Mary Korpov: Sheep
    Archmage Atlantis: At least to appearance
    Mary Korpov: I have always disliked sheep
    Fox Monacular: that's great then
    Fox Monacular: I like sheep, they make wool
    Archmage Atlantis: I nor he can know what they feel
    Mary Korpov: REal sheep are ok, although they smell bad; I dn't linke human sheep
    --BELL--
    Archmage Atlantis: Nor do I Mary
    Mary Korpov: THe one sort of person I truly dislike is the sort that lines up and follows others. That means they are not thinking.
    Archmage Atlantis: Fox is a woman, may I say that Fox?
    Fox Monacular: as far as I know, yes
    Mary Korpov: It was obvious from her RL name
    Mary Korpov: Arch, thinks I'm an overly masculine woman because I'm rational, Fox
    Archmage Atlantis: A neuropsychologist
    Mary Korpov: who is?
    Fox Monacular: me? researcher in neuroscience, yes
    Mary Korpov: Sounds fun.
    Fox Monacular: sometimes
    Mary Korpov: Research has its ups and downs
    Archmage Atlantis: Then, Mary, sit yourself in the front row
    Mary Korpov: Fox, are you a graduate student or already done with that stuff? I got the impression you are a student a few minutes ago
    Archmage Atlantis: All the straight males, or those afraid of who they are, left
    Fox Monacular: grad school is forever
    Mary Korpov: I remember those days. But it does end eventually
    Fox Monacular: and it's the time to actually do research:)
    Mary Korpov: Well, you can keep doing research after you are done if you work at the right type of university
    Fox Monacular: yes, i know.. but while a student the only thing i ha ve to worr about is researhc
    Archmage Atlantis: And a small child
    Fox Monacular: right ;)
    Mary Korpov: A postdoc is best. I loved my postdoc--two years of research bliss. No committees and, most of all, no students
    Fox Monacular: she doesnt care abour research though
    Fox Monacular: my child i mean
    Mary Korpov: By the time my son was 4, he was joining me in research--he liked it
    Fox Monacular: we're going to boston i n january for my husbands postdoc will definitely be fun
    Mary Korpov: I live in Boston. Wonderful city.
    Fox Monacular: what are you teaching, Mary?
    Mary Korpov: I think i'll leave that question aside. I try to keep SL and RL separate
    Fox Monacular: ok
    Archmage Atlantis: Still here
    Mary Korpov: But I teach at a large research university and like it a lot
    Archmage Atlantis: Would you guys like me to leave?
    Mary Korpov: No. Do you want to leave?
    Archmage Atlantis: Not really
    Mary Korpov: Then if I were you, Iwouldn't leave
    Fox Monacular: why? no... i dont want you to leave
    Archmage Atlantis: It is wonderful to hear a mostly honest conversation
    Mary Korpov: Do you normally hear dishonest conversation?
    Archmage Atlantis: Amoung men? of course
    Mary Korpov: You think men are dishonest?
    Archmage Atlantis: Between men and women, even less
    Mary Korpov: My husband and I talk very honestly
    Mary Korpov: Most of my best friends are men
    Archmage Atlantis: So he never says "I understan d"
    Mary Korpov: He says "I understand" when he understands something
    Mary Korpov: You don't seem to like inter-sex interaction, Arch
    --BELL--
    Archmage Atlantis: I don't like dishonestyh
    Archmage Atlantis: dishonesty
    Mary Korpov: Me either
    Mary Korpov: But that has nothing todo with gender
    Archmage Atlantis: Yea, right, so women as property didn't mean anything
    Fox Monacular: women as property?
    Mary Korpov: What?
    Mary Korpov: I'm not anyone's property
    Archmage Atlantis: For thousands of years women were the property of men, look at arabic nations even now
    Mary Korpov: But I haven't lived for thousands ofyears, and I'm not an Arab. What does that have to do with honesty between men and women?
    Archmage Atlantis: Wow, Masry
    Mary Korpov: Wow, what?
    Archmage Atlantis: You really have lived in a protected space
    Mary Korpov: You have no idea about where I have lived.
    Mary Korpov: I've spent several years living in a male-dominated society. THat does not mean anything about honesty between men and women.
    Archmage Atlantis: I grew up in a country that could come into my bedroom with someone as old as I and arrest me
    Mary Korpov: But what does this have to do with honesty between men and women?
    Archmage Atlantis: For being immoral
    Archmage Atlantis: Everything
    Mary Korpov: explain
    Fox Monacular: my grandparents went through that kind of thing, Archmage, but it didn't seem to have affected their honesty
    Mary Korpov: My father-in-law was tortured by Soviets, but it didn't make him dishones. nor did it make him a woman-hater. Your comments just don't make any sense.
    Fox Monacular: in fact I think in totalitarian societies, honestly can be one of the ways of resistance
    Archmage Atlantis: Fox, would you have sex with your partner if you were told it would put you in jail forever as a molester?
    Archmage Atlantis: I have never been with anyone under the age of consent
    Mary Korpov: Arch, This may all be somehow connected in your head; but it isn't making any sense at all to me.
    Archmage Atlantis: I wish to see children protected and cared for
    Mary Korpov: I think I'll take off now.
    Mary Korpov: Bye
    Fox Monacular: I'm not sure what you mean Arch
    Fox Monacular: Good night Mary
    Archmage Atlantis: Yes, run away Mary
    Fox Monacular: the mood tonight seems a little tense:)
    Archmage Atlantis: A bit
    Archmage Atlantis: I'll try to come off my high horse
    Archmage Atlantis: I admire your accomplishments Fox
    Fox Monacular: what do you mean?
    Archmage Atlantis: Mary is the type of woman who made those possible
    --BELL--
    Archmage Atlantis: My mother was in the first co-ed class at UF
    Fox Monacular: co-ed you mean boys and girls?
    Archmage Atlantis: Yes, it was an all male school before
    Fox Monacular: where was it?
    Archmage Atlantis: Gainesville, FL
    Archmage Atlantis: The women's college was in Tallahassee, FL
    Fox Monacular: interesting
    Archmage Atlantis: She went to UF and left me with my grandmother that year
    Archmage Atlantis: Because the degree was more
    Fox Monacular: on one hand I am happy to live in an egalitarian society, on the other hands mapy people are still to figure out the new family dynamics
    Archmage Atlantis: Yes
    Fox Monacular: for instance, not many people in the research center where i work have children
    Archmage Atlantis: BTW, it is not egalitarian
    Archmage Atlantis: Women still bear children
    Archmage Atlantis: Still have the primary responsibilty
    Fox Monacular: I'm glad I have the primayr responsibility over my child
    Fox Monacular: it is only natural
    Archmage Atlantis: Then say that to all who will listen
    Archmage Atlantis: And sit at the center of the table :)
    Fox Monacular: :0
    Fox Monacular: i need to go now
    Fox Monacular: good night Arch
    Archmage Atlantis: I enjoyed your presentation the other day
    Archmage Atlantis: Nite
    Fox Monacular: thank you:)
    Fox Monacular: nite
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