2009.10.25 13:00 - How to hold a concern

The Guardian for this meeting was Maxine Walden. The comments are by Maxine Walden.

Pila, Eos and I held a discussion about several PaB-informed issues, beginning with a review of some of the previous themes from the 8am Sunday morning guardian meeting 

Pila Mulligan: hi Maxine
Maxine Walden: hi, Pila
--BELL--
Pila Mulligan: sorry to missed the sesssion earlier today
Pila Mulligan: miss*
Pila Mulligan: the 8 am SLT guardians metting
Maxine Walden: there were about 10 of us at the 8am meeting
Maxine Walden: yes, thought that was what you were referring to
Pila Mulligan: 8 am SLT is 5 am here :0
Maxine Walden: we spoke about how/whether to focus more specific attention (oh, my yes, 5am, very early on a Sunday morning!)
Pila Mulligan: :)
Maxine Walden: specific attention on the being aspect of PaB...several opinions, comments
Maxine Walden: yes, you have a bit of time difference to contend with
Pila Mulligan: I'm often up at 4 am , but not today
Pila Mulligan: hi Eos
Maxine Walden: ah...yes, oh, Eos is dropping in
Maxine Walden: hi Eos
Pila Mulligan: :)
Eos Amaterasu: :-)
Maxine Walden: dancing in the water, it looked like, Eos
Eos Amaterasu: Hi Maxie & Pila
Maxine Walden: in or on the water
Eos Amaterasu: Yes. I rez on my plot, then decided to fly over
Maxine Walden: any thoughts, eos, about the guardian meeting to mention to Pila?
Maxine Walden: this morning's 8am SLT meeting?
Eos Amaterasu: I think we spent most of it talking about attending more to practice-oriented talk &, um, pausing/9sec-ing et al
Eos Amaterasu: :-)
Maxine Walden: right, I was summarizing the same things....sorry did not mean to catch you off guard
Pila Mulligan: thanks

Eos brings in images

Eos Amaterasu: it's like we're already in the pool
Eos Amaterasu: but sometimes we notice we're in a little circle of the pool
Maxine Walden: ??, Eos?
Eos Amaterasu: the pool is a nice image, both reflecting and containing
Eos Amaterasu: the pool of appearances
Maxine Walden: :)), yes very nice
Eos Amaterasu: pools are the most common symbolic object in the village, I've noticed
Maxine Walden: hmm
Eos Amaterasu: I've been taking walks around the village
Eos Amaterasu: We could do this together - I did one walk with Eliza
Maxine Walden: nice thought
Eos Amaterasu: thinking of Pab-y spots arouind the village where litt groups, like our book club, could meet
Eos Amaterasu: little
Maxine Walden: yes, would be nice to see/get to know some of them
Pila Mulligan: please feel free to use the tai chi poseballs any time :)
Eos Amaterasu: Most people have their spots set u to accomodate such groups
Pila Mulligan: it is fun asa group
Eos Amaterasu: like Pila's :-)
Eos Amaterasu: and Pila has a rainbow!
Pila Mulligan: from Paradise
Eos Amaterasu: :-)
Maxine Walden: I've not really been to Pila's, have seen it, just next door, will have to come by
Maxine Walden: rainbow from Paradise, what a nice image
Pila Mulligan: please visit Maxine :)
Maxine Walden: will do
Pila Mulligan: Paradise Tennant actually, but still nice
Maxine Walden: I know, just using words and images
Pila Mulligan: :)
Eos Amaterasu: Any suggestions about how to approach the upcoming 90 secs?

Pila brings in a concern

Pila Mulligan: I have had a thought occupying my mind rescently
Pila Mulligan: maybe off-PAB
Eos Amaterasu listens
Maxine Walden: just wondering that very question, Eos...oh, Pila
Maxine Walden: ?
Pila Mulligan: an ethical question for this and subsequent centuries relates to genetic modification and bio-engineering, especially how far will humans go in determining human evolution by using technological tools
Eos Amaterasu: At the guardian meeting doug suggested that PaB can enter such questions
Pila Mulligan: seems a biggy to me

Eos suggests a way to approach Pila's question from a PaB outlook

Eos Amaterasu: I think by just asking how the question/framing is with PaB outlook
Eos Amaterasu: I think one way is that we are asking a question aboiut modifying ourselves
Eos Amaterasu: and that is exactly the space PaB plays with
Pila Mulligan: proponents and opponents already use widely varied perspectives
Eos Amaterasu: we are observing and also being and becoming ourselves
Pila Mulligan: the issue has been in the Hawaii legislature several times in recent years regarding inidigenous plants
Pila Mulligan: GMO taro andpapaya
Pila Mulligan: for example
Pila Mulligan: next level is human ourselves
Maxine Walden: thoughtless, perhaps, modifications of ourselves as vs thoughtful (PaB) modifications?
Eos Amaterasu: Also cutting through this notion of forever advancement
--BELL--
Maxine Walden: or bringing aspects of Being into the picture, what would the thoughtul mind consider?
Pila Mulligan: there could already be a post-homo sapiens evolution taking place in laboratories simply by creating the tools -- based on the adage that people will do things simply because they can
Eos Amaterasu: we are living unexamined lives with way too powerful tools
Eos Amaterasu: we can't be such "children" any more
Maxine Walden: greed or curiosity-driven activities?
Pila Mulligan: it is a genuine ethics question
Pila Mulligan: GMO plants are defintieyl monsanto driven
Eos Amaterasu: a lot of it greed and ambition driven
Pila Mulligan: patenting crops
Eos Amaterasu: nurtured with active ignoring
Pila Mulligan: and public indifferemnce

We try to consider several aspects of Pila's concern

Maxine Walden: are you thinking of taking an active stand, Pila? re Hawaii concerns?
Pila Mulligan: so there is an established velocity in favor of bio-engineering in most places
Pila Mulligan: yes, I oppose the commercial GMOs
Pila Mulligan: only a few nations have taken steps to prevent them
Pila Mulligan: most accept them
Eos Amaterasu: the consequence-free model of "scientific inquiry" and engineering breaks down
Pila Mulligan: like it did with nuclear energy
Maxine Walden: like hunting the whales for 'scientific purposes'
Pila Mulligan: yes
Pila Mulligan: justifications like that
Eos Amaterasu: it's the stories we, the greater we, tell ourselves
Eos Amaterasu: PaB is practice in surfacing such stories, among other things
Eos Amaterasu: they are so pervasive we don't see them
Maxine Walden: yes, bringing to the surface the stories that cover unpleasant truths?
Eos Amaterasu: prime delivery medium for stories: commercials!
Maxine Walden: or 'inconvenient truths' as Al Gore wrote?
Eos Amaterasu: the myth of "the car", for example, what that means
Eos Amaterasu: So actually the pool as a meme in the village is a promising sign
Eos Amaterasu: this is part of how PaB goes out in the world
Eos Amaterasu: through such symbols
Eos Amaterasu: Pila, I've been thinking we could have a cafe in the village
Eos Amaterasu: with tables with 9-sec fuctionality
Eos Amaterasu: Latte with pause
Pila Mulligan: :)
Maxine Walden: :)
Pila Mulligan: maybe the cafe could be in one of the 4-plot suqares Storm set up
Pila Mulligan: squares*
Pila Mulligan: Storm*
Eos Amaterasu: or in an unused plot - lots of those
Maxine Walden: that might work nicely
Maxine Walden: either suggestion
Pila Mulligan: Arabella, Fox and Mick and I are panning a garden for our common square
Eos Amaterasu: I have cafe table and chairs
Pila Mulligan: planning*
Maxine Walden: ah, nice
Eos Amaterasu: easy to get
Pila Mulligan: yes, plenty of vacant plots
Eos Amaterasu: Maybe Eliza and I will set up a little cafe for next book club mtg
Maxine Walden: oh, wouldn't that be nice!!
Pila Mulligan: ;)
Pila Mulligan: local solutions seem much more likely and easy to work with than global initiaitves

I have in mind the upcoming 90 sec pause trying to focus our conversation a bit

Maxine Walden: shall we think of our next 90 sec pause, what to focus on?
Pila Mulligan: not that Al Gore and others should stop -- they are eesential too
Maxine Walden: Pila, what would be helpful re your concerns in this next 90 sec pause?
Pila Mulligan: interesting question Maxine
Pila Mulligan: is the fact that compassion increases while humans devolve into a techno-species sufficeint to make it worhtwhile?
Pila Mulligan: the perfection of a new species by sceince as Buddha
Pila Mulligan: is it prefect?
Maxine Walden: the question you have posed for us to consider this next pause?
Pila Mulligan: just thinking outloud, so to speak
Maxine Walden: of course, as wel all are, Pila
Pila Mulligan: so to type
Pila Mulligan: would GMO compassion work?
Eos Amaterasu: "how to hold a concern"
Maxine Walden: Eos, a bit more...?

Again, Eos may have succinctly expressed a PaB approach

Eos Amaterasu: how to hold an intention, so it's not obsessive, but so it doesn't disappear, so it's nto overdong, but accurate
--BELL--
Maxine Walden: so that a concern registers but does not collapse, nor torque the thinking mind with worry,, yet fosters continued evolving concern
Eos Amaterasu: Yes... so that the intention doesn't distort or project onto the space
Eos Amaterasu: but so that it does raise the energy level, through questioning of itself
Eos Amaterasu: so that there's awareness left, but may let go of the solidity of the intention
Eos Amaterasu: and so the space of possibilities is more vivid

Wondering if we are needing to bridge a gap between Eos and my comments and Pila's underlying concern

Maxine Walden: Pila, are these considerations pertinent to your concerns or current state of mind?
Pila Mulligan: I'm not sure I understand, actually
Maxine Walden: Do you feel we are off the mark, away from the heart of your concern?
Pila Mulligan: yes, but that is no reason not to proceed :)
Eos Amaterasu: Is the question how to provide more wisdom for those (us? them?) making decisions?
Pila Mulligan: I'm not really sure, I just see the ethics issue in bold letters -- I do not yet see the rest
Pila Mulligan: there are strongly held opinions in favor of letting Monsanto make the future of plants
Pila Mulligan: that it is good
Pila Mulligan: they no doubt nurture that intent
Pila Mulligan: they believe that is good, to be accurate
Maxine Walden: Are you wondering whether an informed discussion between folks such as yourself with your concerns and the Monsanto folks could occur, whether there could be any fostering of really mutual dialogue?
Pila Mulligan: yes, to some degree is it even possible
Maxine Walden: or whether self-serving states of mind might try to trump such a discussion
Pila Mulligan: would ut be legitimate or PR
Eos Amaterasu: Question is what is the critical point
Pila Mulligan: yes
Eos Amaterasu: Usually that tends to be what is _not_ being said, what is not being looked at
Eos Amaterasu: you can be to yourself, and appear to others, quite good if you're both ignoring something not so good
Eos Amaterasu: Sometimes it takes a shock to see that
Maxine Walden: Eos, you thinking that bringing the unspoken ethical point out and yet have ongoing dialogue is the issue?
Pila Mulligan: we've seen that waht is 'good for GM' (the old ad line) is not necessarily good for everyone
Maxine Walden: indeed...
Eos Amaterasu: Like that Health Insurance company PR exec who saw health care camps in Virginia and got shocked out of years of ignoring
Pila Mulligan: but for decades lots of people believed that what was good for GM was good for everyone
Eos Amaterasu: Hannah Arendt says that evil comes out of superficiality
Maxine Walden: We may be hovering around the point of our being responsible individuals, standing up for what we are seeing and concerned about...even when (especially when) it goes against the system
Pila Mulligan: his epiphany is his perosnal answer
Eos Amaterasu: being shallow
Pila Mulligan: I agree, Monsanto's profits are frivolous value
Maxine Walden: yes, the thoughtless mind, 'banality of evil', I think she said?
Eos Amaterasu: it takes a lot to _not_ "go along"
Pila Mulligan: yet Monsantos' profits are a bigger influence than most people's voices
Eos Amaterasu: confidence in your own perceptions
Maxine Walden: So, if we have the courage to articulate our doubts and concerns even in the face of others indifference or even hostility...maybe we are wondering about the power ofour convictions
Pila Mulligan: I also wonder about free will and karma
Pila Mulligan: how can we use our freew ill, if any, to affect the bad karma of self-aborbed proft motivated power hungry corporations
Maxine Walden: And that our convictions, shared with thoughtful others might go some ways toward awakening a public
Eos Amaterasu: re free will and karma, most of us are on autopilot all the time
Eos Amaterasu: so finding a break in that auto-one-thought-after-another is helpful
Eos Amaterasu: and PaB helps tehre
Pila Mulligan: true
Eos Amaterasu: there, but it's an extreme minority practice
Eos Amaterasu: we need the blockbuster movie, PaB!
Maxine Walden: (another 90 sec coming up...I will try to ponder some of these pints)
Maxine Walden: points
Eos Amaterasu: I'll drink to that
Maxine Walden: (or maybe pints)
--BELL--
Pila Mulligan: fact: organic papayas are history (predictably, and almost actually already in Hawai`i)

Trying to bring in experience from the just-past 90 sec pause I am not sure whether it was pertinent to Pila's concerns but did try to bring all parties into the fold of human concern

Maxine Walden: My experience: the whiff of freshly made spaghetti sauce on the stove...made me think of the value of fresh whiffs of genuine ideas, newly minted, organic, if you will...and that if we protect those 'whiffs' and share then that they might have unanticipated effects
Maxine Walden: (this in the 90 sec just now)
Maxine Walden: Basically we all want goodness, respect for nature, etc, and appealing to the mind, waking it up, even the Monsanto folks, just might carry more weight than we might imagine at first
Eos Amaterasu: I think Monsanto folks and similar need a container to go through such an experience
Eos Amaterasu: so it's not just words
Pila Mulligan: yes ephiphanies work, but slowly
Eos Amaterasu: epiphany needs place, time, and maybe some kind of pressure
Eos Amaterasu: or sudden loss of it
Eos Amaterasu: then the Monsanto person needs to bring that whiff to the bottom line
Eos Amaterasu: otherwise nothing changes
Eos Amaterasu: it's our very systems that need the PaB pause in them
Eos Amaterasu: otherwise they are on robotic overdrive
Maxine Walden: we are speaking about Change, yes the systems need to be able to embrace the value of change, which means 'waking up'
Maxine Walden: and recognizing the wider reality of a shared planet, etc, beyond the company frame of mind

Pila keeps bringing the concern that Monsanto would be caught in an unchangeable rut of unshiftable thought, unmovable by wider ethical concerns

Pila Mulligan: however, consider this: suppose the Monsanto sicentist sees the light and then goes to work bio-engineering a compaasion enhancing genetic change
Eos Amaterasu: time for a containing membrane, or care, for the planet as a whole; that's the real GMO that's needed :-)
Pila Mulligan: same question
Pila Mulligan: is bio-engineeering the apprpriaite mtehid
Pila Mulligan: ?
Eos Amaterasu: change comes from within, not from DNA :-)
Pila Mulligan: I prefer oganic too
Eos Amaterasu: (heresey)
Pila Mulligan: but I wonder ...
Pila Mulligan: will the future?
Eos Amaterasu: All our stuff is very naive (example: software) because it doesn't have care build in: it just has "go forward" or "stop", but not much in between
Pila Mulligan: contemplating these thoughts may help, I hope
Maxine Walden: ...does not have built in care with an ethical eye? That may be something we do need to embody and emphasize
Maxine Walden: and perhaps awaken in others who may be switched off out of pre-occupation and 'busyness'
Maxine Walden: (have to go in a minute or so...feel a kind of responsiility re posting this chatlog...for the reasons we are consdieraing)
Maxine Walden: will be interesting to ponder..

As we come to the end of the hour, Pila moreless summarizes the thrust of our discussion

Pila Mulligan: issues like peace, climate change, resource sustainability, are fairly well-recognized, I just wanted to add bio-engineering as it is a well-recongized local concern, as a result of events here
Pila Mulligan: bye Maxine
Eos Amaterasu: bye Maxine
Maxine Walden: thanks for the conversation...hope we can continue it in many ways, threads through our chatlogs, etc
Maxine Walden: bye all
Pila Mulligan: aloha `oe
--BELL--
Eos Amaterasu: Would you like to walk thru the village, Pila?
Pila Mulligan: sure
Pila Mulligan: I'll follow you, Eos :)