2009.10.25 13:00 - How to hold a concern

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Maxine Walden. The comments are by Maxine Walden.

    Pila, Eos and I held a discussion about several PaB-informed issues, beginning with a review of some of the previous themes from the 8am Sunday morning guardian meeting 


    Pila Mulligan: hi Maxine
    Maxine Walden: hi, Pila
    Pila Mulligan: sorry to missed the sesssion earlier today
    Pila Mulligan: miss*
    Pila Mulligan: the 8 am SLT guardians metting
    Maxine Walden: there were about 10 of us at the 8am meeting
    Maxine Walden: yes, thought that was what you were referring to
    Pila Mulligan: 8 am SLT is 5 am here :0
    Maxine Walden: we spoke about how/whether to focus more specific attention (oh, my yes, 5am, very early on a Sunday morning!)
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Maxine Walden: specific attention on the being aspect of PaB...several opinions, comments
    Maxine Walden: yes, you have a bit of time difference to contend with
    Pila Mulligan: I'm often up at 4 am , but not today
    Pila Mulligan: hi Eos
    Maxine Walden: ah...yes, oh, Eos is dropping in
    Maxine Walden: hi Eos
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Eos Amaterasu: :-)
    Maxine Walden: dancing in the water, it looked like, Eos
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi Maxie & Pila
    Maxine Walden: in or on the water
    Eos Amaterasu: Yes. I rez on my plot, then decided to fly over
    Maxine Walden: any thoughts, eos, about the guardian meeting to mention to Pila?
    Maxine Walden: this morning's 8am SLT meeting?
    Eos Amaterasu: I think we spent most of it talking about attending more to practice-oriented talk &, um, pausing/9sec-ing et al
    Eos Amaterasu: :-)
    Maxine Walden: right, I was summarizing the same things....sorry did not mean to catch you off guard
    Pila Mulligan: thanks

    Eos brings in images

    Eos Amaterasu: it's like we're already in the pool
    Eos Amaterasu: but sometimes we notice we're in a little circle of the pool
    Maxine Walden: ??, Eos?
    Eos Amaterasu: the pool is a nice image, both reflecting and containing
    Eos Amaterasu: the pool of appearances
    Maxine Walden: :)), yes very nice
    Eos Amaterasu: pools are the most common symbolic object in the village, I've noticed
    Maxine Walden: hmm
    Eos Amaterasu: I've been taking walks around the village
    Eos Amaterasu: We could do this together - I did one walk with Eliza
    Maxine Walden: nice thought
    Eos Amaterasu: thinking of Pab-y spots arouind the village where litt groups, like our book club, could meet
    Eos Amaterasu: little
    Maxine Walden: yes, would be nice to see/get to know some of them
    Pila Mulligan: please feel free to use the tai chi poseballs any time :)
    Eos Amaterasu: Most people have their spots set u to accomodate such groups
    Pila Mulligan: it is fun asa group
    Eos Amaterasu: like Pila's :-)
    Eos Amaterasu: and Pila has a rainbow!
    Pila Mulligan: from Paradise
    Eos Amaterasu: :-)
    Maxine Walden: I've not really been to Pila's, have seen it, just next door, will have to come by
    Maxine Walden: rainbow from Paradise, what a nice image
    Pila Mulligan: please visit Maxine :)
    Maxine Walden: will do
    Pila Mulligan: Paradise Tennant actually, but still nice
    Maxine Walden: I know, just using words and images
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Eos Amaterasu: Any suggestions about how to approach the upcoming 90 secs?

    Pila brings in a concern

    Pila Mulligan: I have had a thought occupying my mind rescently
    Pila Mulligan: maybe off-PAB
    Eos Amaterasu listens
    Maxine Walden: just wondering that very question, Eos...oh, Pila
    Maxine Walden: ?
    Pila Mulligan: an ethical question for this and subsequent centuries relates to genetic modification and bio-engineering, especially how far will humans go in determining human evolution by using technological tools
    Eos Amaterasu: At the guardian meeting doug suggested that PaB can enter such questions
    Pila Mulligan: seems a biggy to me

    Eos suggests a way to approach Pila's question from a PaB outlook

    Eos Amaterasu: I think by just asking how the question/framing is with PaB outlook
    Eos Amaterasu: I think one way is that we are asking a question aboiut modifying ourselves
    Eos Amaterasu: and that is exactly the space PaB plays with
    Pila Mulligan: proponents and opponents already use widely varied perspectives
    Eos Amaterasu: we are observing and also being and becoming ourselves
    Pila Mulligan: the issue has been in the Hawaii legislature several times in recent years regarding inidigenous plants
    Pila Mulligan: GMO taro andpapaya
    Pila Mulligan: for example
    Pila Mulligan: next level is human ourselves
    Maxine Walden: thoughtless, perhaps, modifications of ourselves as vs thoughtful (PaB) modifications?
    Eos Amaterasu: Also cutting through this notion of forever advancement
    Maxine Walden: or bringing aspects of Being into the picture, what would the thoughtul mind consider?
    Pila Mulligan: there could already be a post-homo sapiens evolution taking place in laboratories simply by creating the tools -- based on the adage that people will do things simply because they can
    Eos Amaterasu: we are living unexamined lives with way too powerful tools
    Eos Amaterasu: we can't be such "children" any more
    Maxine Walden: greed or curiosity-driven activities?
    Pila Mulligan: it is a genuine ethics question
    Pila Mulligan: GMO plants are defintieyl monsanto driven
    Eos Amaterasu: a lot of it greed and ambition driven
    Pila Mulligan: patenting crops
    Eos Amaterasu: nurtured with active ignoring
    Pila Mulligan: and public indifferemnce

    We try to consider several aspects of Pila's concern

    Maxine Walden: are you thinking of taking an active stand, Pila? re Hawaii concerns?
    Pila Mulligan: so there is an established velocity in favor of bio-engineering in most places
    Pila Mulligan: yes, I oppose the commercial GMOs
    Pila Mulligan: only a few nations have taken steps to prevent them
    Pila Mulligan: most accept them
    Eos Amaterasu: the consequence-free model of "scientific inquiry" and engineering breaks down
    Pila Mulligan: like it did with nuclear energy
    Maxine Walden: like hunting the whales for 'scientific purposes'
    Pila Mulligan: yes
    Pila Mulligan: justifications like that
    Eos Amaterasu: it's the stories we, the greater we, tell ourselves
    Eos Amaterasu: PaB is practice in surfacing such stories, among other things
    Eos Amaterasu: they are so pervasive we don't see them
    Maxine Walden: yes, bringing to the surface the stories that cover unpleasant truths?
    Eos Amaterasu: prime delivery medium for stories: commercials!
    Maxine Walden: or 'inconvenient truths' as Al Gore wrote?
    Eos Amaterasu: the myth of "the car", for example, what that means
    Eos Amaterasu: So actually the pool as a meme in the village is a promising sign
    Eos Amaterasu: this is part of how PaB goes out in the world
    Eos Amaterasu: through such symbols
    Eos Amaterasu: Pila, I've been thinking we could have a cafe in the village
    Eos Amaterasu: with tables with 9-sec fuctionality
    Eos Amaterasu: Latte with pause
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Maxine Walden: :)
    Pila Mulligan: maybe the cafe could be in one of the 4-plot suqares Storm set up
    Pila Mulligan: squares*
    Pila Mulligan: Storm*
    Eos Amaterasu: or in an unused plot - lots of those
    Maxine Walden: that might work nicely
    Maxine Walden: either suggestion
    Pila Mulligan: Arabella, Fox and Mick and I are panning a garden for our common square
    Eos Amaterasu: I have cafe table and chairs
    Pila Mulligan: planning*
    Maxine Walden: ah, nice
    Eos Amaterasu: easy to get
    Pila Mulligan: yes, plenty of vacant plots
    Eos Amaterasu: Maybe Eliza and I will set up a little cafe for next book club mtg
    Maxine Walden: oh, wouldn't that be nice!!
    Pila Mulligan: ;)
    Pila Mulligan: local solutions seem much more likely and easy to work with than global initiaitves

    I have in mind the upcoming 90 sec pause trying to focus our conversation a bit

    Maxine Walden: shall we think of our next 90 sec pause, what to focus on?
    Pila Mulligan: not that Al Gore and others should stop -- they are eesential too
    Maxine Walden: Pila, what would be helpful re your concerns in this next 90 sec pause?
    Pila Mulligan: interesting question Maxine
    Pila Mulligan: is the fact that compassion increases while humans devolve into a techno-species sufficeint to make it worhtwhile?
    Pila Mulligan: the perfection of a new species by sceince as Buddha
    Pila Mulligan: is it prefect?
    Maxine Walden: the question you have posed for us to consider this next pause?
    Pila Mulligan: just thinking outloud, so to speak
    Maxine Walden: of course, as wel all are, Pila
    Pila Mulligan: so to type
    Pila Mulligan: would GMO compassion work?
    Eos Amaterasu: "how to hold a concern"
    Maxine Walden: Eos, a bit more...?

    Again, Eos may have succinctly expressed a PaB approach

    Eos Amaterasu: how to hold an intention, so it's not obsessive, but so it doesn't disappear, so it's nto overdong, but accurate
    Maxine Walden: so that a concern registers but does not collapse, nor torque the thinking mind with worry,, yet fosters continued evolving concern
    Eos Amaterasu: Yes... so that the intention doesn't distort or project onto the space
    Eos Amaterasu: but so that it does raise the energy level, through questioning of itself
    Eos Amaterasu: so that there's awareness left, but may let go of the solidity of the intention
    Eos Amaterasu: and so the space of possibilities is more vivid

    Wondering if we are needing to bridge a gap between Eos and my comments and Pila's underlying concern

    Maxine Walden: Pila, are these considerations pertinent to your concerns or current state of mind?
    Pila Mulligan: I'm not sure I understand, actually
    Maxine Walden: Do you feel we are off the mark, away from the heart of your concern?
    Pila Mulligan: yes, but that is no reason not to proceed :)
    Eos Amaterasu: Is the question how to provide more wisdom for those (us? them?) making decisions?
    Pila Mulligan: I'm not really sure, I just see the ethics issue in bold letters -- I do not yet see the rest
    Pila Mulligan: there are strongly held opinions in favor of letting Monsanto make the future of plants
    Pila Mulligan: that it is good
    Pila Mulligan: they no doubt nurture that intent
    Pila Mulligan: they believe that is good, to be accurate
    Maxine Walden: Are you wondering whether an informed discussion between folks such as yourself with your concerns and the Monsanto folks could occur, whether there could be any fostering of really mutual dialogue?
    Pila Mulligan: yes, to some degree is it even possible
    Maxine Walden: or whether self-serving states of mind might try to trump such a discussion
    Pila Mulligan: would ut be legitimate or PR
    Eos Amaterasu: Question is what is the critical point
    Pila Mulligan: yes
    Eos Amaterasu: Usually that tends to be what is _not_ being said, what is not being looked at
    Eos Amaterasu: you can be to yourself, and appear to others, quite good if you're both ignoring something not so good
    Eos Amaterasu: Sometimes it takes a shock to see that
    Maxine Walden: Eos, you thinking that bringing the unspoken ethical point out and yet have ongoing dialogue is the issue?
    Pila Mulligan: we've seen that waht is 'good for GM' (the old ad line) is not necessarily good for everyone
    Maxine Walden: indeed...
    Eos Amaterasu: Like that Health Insurance company PR exec who saw health care camps in Virginia and got shocked out of years of ignoring
    Pila Mulligan: but for decades lots of people believed that what was good for GM was good for everyone
    Eos Amaterasu: Hannah Arendt says that evil comes out of superficiality
    Maxine Walden: We may be hovering around the point of our being responsible individuals, standing up for what we are seeing and concerned about...even when (especially when) it goes against the system
    Pila Mulligan: his epiphany is his perosnal answer
    Eos Amaterasu: being shallow
    Pila Mulligan: I agree, Monsanto's profits are frivolous value
    Maxine Walden: yes, the thoughtless mind, 'banality of evil', I think she said?
    Eos Amaterasu: it takes a lot to _not_ "go along"
    Pila Mulligan: yet Monsantos' profits are a bigger influence than most people's voices
    Eos Amaterasu: confidence in your own perceptions
    Maxine Walden: So, if we have the courage to articulate our doubts and concerns even in the face of others indifference or even hostility...maybe we are wondering about the power ofour convictions
    Pila Mulligan: I also wonder about free will and karma
    Pila Mulligan: how can we use our freew ill, if any, to affect the bad karma of self-aborbed proft motivated power hungry corporations
    Maxine Walden: And that our convictions, shared with thoughtful others might go some ways toward awakening a public
    Eos Amaterasu: re free will and karma, most of us are on autopilot all the time
    Eos Amaterasu: so finding a break in that auto-one-thought-after-another is helpful
    Eos Amaterasu: and PaB helps tehre
    Pila Mulligan: true
    Eos Amaterasu: there, but it's an extreme minority practice
    Eos Amaterasu: we need the blockbuster movie, PaB!
    Maxine Walden: (another 90 sec coming up...I will try to ponder some of these pints)
    Maxine Walden: points
    Eos Amaterasu: I'll drink to that
    Maxine Walden: (or maybe pints)
    Pila Mulligan: fact: organic papayas are history (predictably, and almost actually already in Hawai`i)

    Trying to bring in experience from the just-past 90 sec pause I am not sure whether it was pertinent to Pila's concerns but did try to bring all parties into the fold of human concern

    Maxine Walden: My experience: the whiff of freshly made spaghetti sauce on the stove...made me think of the value of fresh whiffs of genuine ideas, newly minted, organic, if you will...and that if we protect those 'whiffs' and share then that they might have unanticipated effects
    Maxine Walden: (this in the 90 sec just now)
    Maxine Walden: Basically we all want goodness, respect for nature, etc, and appealing to the mind, waking it up, even the Monsanto folks, just might carry more weight than we might imagine at first
    Eos Amaterasu: I think Monsanto folks and similar need a container to go through such an experience
    Eos Amaterasu: so it's not just words
    Pila Mulligan: yes ephiphanies work, but slowly
    Eos Amaterasu: epiphany needs place, time, and maybe some kind of pressure
    Eos Amaterasu: or sudden loss of it
    Eos Amaterasu: then the Monsanto person needs to bring that whiff to the bottom line
    Eos Amaterasu: otherwise nothing changes
    Eos Amaterasu: it's our very systems that need the PaB pause in them
    Eos Amaterasu: otherwise they are on robotic overdrive
    Maxine Walden: we are speaking about Change, yes the systems need to be able to embrace the value of change, which means 'waking up'
    Maxine Walden: and recognizing the wider reality of a shared planet, etc, beyond the company frame of mind

    Pila keeps bringing the concern that Monsanto would be caught in an unchangeable rut of unshiftable thought, unmovable by wider ethical concerns

    Pila Mulligan: however, consider this: suppose the Monsanto sicentist sees the light and then goes to work bio-engineering a compaasion enhancing genetic change
    Eos Amaterasu: time for a containing membrane, or care, for the planet as a whole; that's the real GMO that's needed :-)
    Pila Mulligan: same question
    Pila Mulligan: is bio-engineeering the apprpriaite mtehid
    Pila Mulligan: ?
    Eos Amaterasu: change comes from within, not from DNA :-)
    Pila Mulligan: I prefer oganic too
    Eos Amaterasu: (heresey)
    Pila Mulligan: but I wonder ...
    Pila Mulligan: will the future?
    Eos Amaterasu: All our stuff is very naive (example: software) because it doesn't have care build in: it just has "go forward" or "stop", but not much in between
    Pila Mulligan: contemplating these thoughts may help, I hope
    Maxine Walden: ...does not have built in care with an ethical eye? That may be something we do need to embody and emphasize
    Maxine Walden: and perhaps awaken in others who may be switched off out of pre-occupation and 'busyness'
    Maxine Walden: (have to go in a minute or so...feel a kind of responsiility re posting this chatlog...for the reasons we are consdieraing)
    Maxine Walden: will be interesting to ponder..

    As we come to the end of the hour, Pila moreless summarizes the thrust of our discussion

    Pila Mulligan: issues like peace, climate change, resource sustainability, are fairly well-recognized, I just wanted to add bio-engineering as it is a well-recongized local concern, as a result of events here
    Pila Mulligan: bye Maxine
    Eos Amaterasu: bye Maxine
    Maxine Walden: thanks for the conversation...hope we can continue it in many ways, threads through our chatlogs, etc
    Maxine Walden: bye all
    Pila Mulligan: aloha `oe
    Eos Amaterasu: Would you like to walk thru the village, Pila?
    Pila Mulligan: sure
    Pila Mulligan: I'll follow you, Eos :)
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