2009.10.28 13:00 - 'Spiritual' is a Strange Word

The Guardian for this meeting was Fefonz Quan. The comments are by Fefonz Quan.

Wol Euler: wednesday 28 october, 1pm
--BELL--
Wol Euler: hello sophia
sophia Placebo: greeting wol
sophia Placebo: how are you ?
Wol Euler: hot and sweaty, and fulll of fine food and coffee :)
Wol Euler: on holiday in Tel Aviv.
Wol Euler: and you?
sophia Placebo: hehe great
sophia Placebo: im alive !
Wol Euler: good!
Wol Euler: I'd miss you if you weren't.
sophia Placebo: lol
sophia Placebo: thnx
sophia Placebo: so quite today !
Wol Euler: what is your shoulder panda wearing? is s/he a magician?
sophia Placebo: it is part of another outfit - a witch outfit
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Wol, Sophia :)
Wol Euler: ah :)
Wol Euler: hello eliza
sophia Placebo: hola Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Wol Euler: hello qt
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Qt
Qt Core: hi all!
sophia Placebo: hi Qt
Wol Euler: hello zen
sophia Placebo: hi zen
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zen
Qt Core: You know, i always wondered what this cultivator title i often saw was :-)
--BELL--
Zen Arado: Hi all :)
Qt Core: hi Zen
Eliza Madrigal smiles. Its my favorite tag. I wear it everywhere
Wol Euler: an intriguing title, full of vague suggestion
Wol Euler: ooops
sophia Placebo: hi mick
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Mick!
Wol Euler: hello mick
Mickorod Renard: Hiya gUYS N GALS
Zen Arado: Hi Mick
Qt Core: hi Mick
Mickorod Renard: everyone ok?#
Wol Euler: wonderful :)
Eliza Madrigal: Yyes Mick, you?
Mickorod Renard: ;)
Mickorod Renard: yes ty
Zen Arado: yep
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Qt Core: quite good, ty
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Fef :)
Mickorod Renard: hi Fef
sophia Placebo: hi fef
Wol Euler: hello fef
Zen Arado: Hi Fef
Fefonz Quan: Hey all!
Fefonz Quan: (Sorry for being late ...)
Mickorod Renard: I just arrived
Qt Core: cultivator as a word for me is too near the garden work for me and i'm very bad at it, plants die as soon as i think about them
Zen Arado: reminds me of a pearl
Wol Euler: oh dear.
Mickorod Renard: fef,,i see voice comming from you
Fefonz Quan: i silenced it i think
Mickorod Renard: ok
Mickorod Renard: I dont know whether or exactly what the problem is,,saw the mails
Zen Arado: do you have to shove a bit of grit into a cultivated pearl?
Qt Core: i've seen a demonstration in a pearl firm about making pearls... i think it is even worse than fur coats
Wol Euler: who needs pearls, though?
Wol Euler: *needs*, I mean, not lusts after?
Mickorod Renard: I liked pearls as a child,,my mum wore them
Zen Arado: aren't they out of fashion?
Wol Euler: anything far enough out becomes in again, just wait a while
Zen Arado: :)
Mickorod Renard: I was always responsible for breaking the string,,resulting in pearls bouncing all over the floor
Fefonz Quan: brb
Qt Core: they are so "classic" i don't think they can go out of fashion
Mickorod Renard: Hiya Bol
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bolonath :)
Bolonath Crystal: namaste :)
Qt Core: hi bolonath
Zen Arado: you can't 'work' them in any way?
Wol Euler: that presumes of course that the a pearl will actually result from spoiling the oyster's day...
Zen Arado: Hi Bolonath
Wol Euler: hello bolo
Mickorod Renard: you can get them suck in your ear
Zen Arado: spiritual lesson there :)
Qt Core: yes, we are talking about cultivated ones
Zen Arado: we need the nasty parts of life
Zen Arado: wonder do pearls usffer ?
Zen Arado: suffer
Eliza Madrigal: talk of pearls makes me think of the parable... that "the kingdom of heaven is like a man who sells all he has to buy a field in which lives the pearl of great price." Don't ask me what a pearl is doing in a field, but that's how the story goes...hehe
Wol Euler: do I have the right to hit you with a paddle if I think that your cries of distress will form a minor arpeggio?
Zen Arado: might do me good :)
Zen Arado: how does the rest of that go Eliza?
Qt Core: :-) eliza
Wol Euler: and if my motive is my own musical pleasure, not your benefit?
Eliza Madrigal: that might be it, Zen :)
Zen Arado: not very musical I think :)
Wol Euler: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_Pearl
Qt Core: the idea is that you have to invest all you have for something superior, a extraordinary pearls, faioth, god
Zen Arado: ah yes
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, in this translation there isn't a field
Eliza Madrigal: makes more sense :)
Zen Arado: have to give it all we've got
Qt Core: in italioan it is always a field
Mickorod Renard: but the wealth isnt money or material stuff I guess
Zen Arado: total commitment
Eliza Madrigal nods
Wol Euler: how interesting. Perhaps Biblical pearls were found in turnips instead of oyters?
Eliza Madrigal: heehhe
Eliza Madrigal: and in buddhism there are jewels in lotuses...
Wol Euler: mmhmm
Zen Arado: no its that heavenly riches are better than earthly ones
Eliza Madrigal: Just playing with the ideas, Zen :)
Zen Arado: opposite to Buddhist teaching ?
Wol Euler: :)
Zen Arado: sure
Wol Euler: parallel, I would have thought, Zen.
Fefonz Quan: back
Wol Euler: both hold that the state of the soul is more important than the contents of the pocket
Zen Arado: but we should concentrate on the here and now not what will happen when we die?
Wol Euler: wb fef
Wol Euler: that cuts both ways, Zen.
--BELL--
Wol Euler: why do I not indulge in selfish pleasure which benefits me right now, at the cost of future karma and the suffering of others?
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zon
Zon Quar: heya
Mickorod Renard: there is a posibility that if u live your life in such a way that u can account well for yourself to ,,say aa gog ,,when u die,,then you may well have lived a good life
Mickorod Renard: Hiya Zon
Fefonz Quan: Hello Zon
Qt Core: hi Zon
Zon Quar: arnt we all selfish ?
sophia Placebo: hi zon
Eliza Madrigal: brb
Wol Euler: hello zon
Fefonz Quan: (except tha shellfish)
Zen Arado: Hi Zon
Bolonath Crystal: hi zon
Mickorod Renard: soz for talkin at wrong time
Zen Arado: I heard a similar parable about the Wedding feast at a funeral last week
Mickorod Renard: I think a selfish desire to live in a harmonious community by exerting ethical behaviour is acceptable
Mickorod Renard: how does that go Zen?
Mickorod Renard: hi Yaku
sophia Placebo: hi yak
Bolonath Crystal: namaste yak
Wol Euler: hello yakuzza
Zen Arado: its about a King who throws a feast but everyone is troo busy to come
Fefonz Quan: Hey Yakuzza
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
Wol Euler: ah, yes, that was a good one.
Zen Arado: engrossed in their worldly affairs
Mickorod Renard: yes,,i have heard that one too
Zen Arado: the minister said that we should spend more time thinking of the blessings we will receive in heaven
Wol Euler: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable..._Wedding_Feast
Zen Arado: which again I thought was the opposite to the Buddhist message
Zen Arado: Wol?
Fefonz Quan: i would agree with that Zen
Wol Euler: well, being neither a buddhist nor a christian I can't speak with authority, but I'll have a go.
Fefonz Quan: fds
Zen Arado: just wondered if this one was different than the last :)
Wol Euler: a different wikipedia reference, yes
Zen Arado: of course the minister was selective in his interpretation
Zen Arado: wanted to reassure everyone
Zen Arado: we don't like being reminded of our mortality at funerals :)
Wol Euler: where better, though?
sophia Placebo: in buddisim the soul? is recicled reencarnated again and again , in christianity there is no cycle but linear course
Qt Core: another common interpretation is that you have to be always ready with your better clothes for the bancket (do this mean ready to die ?)
Zen Arado: can't avoid it
Eliza Madrigal: back, wow, I wasn't slumped... drove my dd all the way to school and back. haha
Fefonz Quan: wow. that's about a 3 min delay
Zon Quar: we dont die to ourselves, jtu to others
Zen Arado: ready for spiritual things?
sophia Placebo: so in christanity heaven is like your health after 50 years , either you live healthy as young to keep your health to old age or the oppsite
Fefonz Quan: can you say more about it Zon?
Wol Euler: actually I think that there is a similarity in essence, Zen. the *end* is different, sure, but they agree that the momentary pleasures and distractions of life are inferior to the spiritual ones
Eliza Madrigal scrolls back to read
Wol Euler: interesting, sophia :)
Zen Arado: good point Wol
Qt Core: but you still can repent and got a cure ;-)
Zon Quar: but isnt it same thin, earthly pleasure and hevanely,
Fefonz Quan: i would say that 'spiritual' ones is a little trickey for buddhism
Zon Quar: pleasure is pleasure
Fefonz Quan: fdgfdsgfds
sophia Placebo: repent wont give you another soul
Wol Euler: actually I was always offended by that bit of christianity, that you could be an evil rapacious bastard, ruining lives left and right; but shed a tear on your deathbed and all is forgiven?
Wol Euler: too easy.
Zen Arado: 'spiritual' is a strange word
Fefonz Quan: i would think that buddhism will find 'spiritual' a little trickey
Mickorod Renard: I think its deeper than that Wol
Wol Euler: (couldn#t think of anohter word that is opposite to "worldly", fef. I'm open to suggestions)
Qt Core: a tear out of only fear doesn't work
Zen Arado: it also means that the offer is always open
Mickorod Renard: never too late to change your ways
Zen Arado: wasn't criticising your use of word just the word itself
Fefonz Quan: i always thought there something wrong with the concept of 'living for the afterlife' instead of focusing on now
sophia Placebo: in islam repentance at the bed of death isnt count it , you should fix things befor you die
Wol Euler nods
Zen Arado: deathbed repentances are seldom genuine
Zon Quar: seeking for heavnely pleasures is living in thoughst
Fefonz Quan: i'll go with that Sophia
Zon Quar: in dream
Eliza Madrigal: Most of these things seem to have layers of meaning. For instance being 'forgiven' in a larger sense doesn't mean that you can make up for anything
Qt Core: if we leave out the more contemplative monastic orders most practice for a good spiritual life end up quite involved with the now and here
Zen Arado: yes
Fefonz Quan: buddhists would say that running after the pleasure, no matter in which life, is one of the things that caused all the troubles to start with
--BELL--
Zen Arado: our view of time too linear?
Zon Quar: what is time
Zen Arado: a construction?
Wol Euler nods to Fef
Zon Quar: itme is desire
sophia Placebo: in islam you are born pure and with original virtue , no prevouse lives to take their burden on you , wordly pleasures that are prohibited are things which would render this original vertue into something cloudy
Zen Arado: craving is the problem ?
Wol Euler: "the love of money is the root of all evil", a similar idea
Zen Arado: yes
sophia Placebo: to stop thinking of attaching self to finit things is to focus on whay lasts
Fefonz Quan: yes Zen, among others :)
Zon Quar: whne u desire something u dont have now..time is created
Zen Arado: how do you stop craving?
sophia Placebo: what*
Wol Euler: hello gen
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Gen
Fefonz Quan: that's a great question Zen
sophia Placebo: hi gen
Yakuzza Lethecus: hello gen
Fefonz Quan: Hi Gen!
Qt Core: hi gen
Zen Arado: Hi Gen
Mickorod Renard: for some the craving stays,,but then the task is temptation
genesis Zhangsun: Hey!
Mickorod Renard: hi Gen
genesis Zhangsun: :) sorry
genesis Zhangsun: didn't see you there
Fefonz Quan: maybe the first step is to see what craving produces
Fefonz Quan: fds
Zon Quar: what is fds ?
Zen Arado: or ust to see it
Wol Euler: "former day saints"?
Mickorod Renard: a hunger
Wol Euler: naaah, nvm
Mickorod Renard: fill the hunger with something else
Fefonz Quan: (ah, sorry, it's a try to see why my comments are not printed on the screen. no 'spiritual meaning' whatsoever ;-)
Fefonz Quan: (thefds)
genesis Zhangsun: hehe
genesis Zhangsun: profound typos :)
Zon Quar: desire is life, isnt it, without desire, no life ?
Fefonz Quan: but desire and craving can be different
Zon Quar: nods
Zen Arado: craving is magnifie d hunger?
Zen Arado: not normal appetite
Zon Quar: craving = desire for certain object ?
Fefonz Quan: it's the attachement to the pbject of desire.
Wol Euler: craving is an attachment, where your need is greater than the thing itself
Wol Euler: snap
Zon Quar: hm
Fefonz Quan: I desired a steak yestrrday, and ate it with great pleasure. but i don't think about it anymore, it doesn't haunt me - hence no craving
Wol Euler: right
Zon Quar: so desire as itself is inevitable ?
Zen Arado: you know what a 'hungry Ghost' is?
Zon Quar: nods
Fefonz Quan nods x2
genesis Zhangsun: big belly, small throat?
sophia Placebo: when you thunk you dont get enough always , re craving
Zen Arado: yes
Zon Quar: but
sophia Placebo: think*
Zon Quar: clinging can also be moderate
Zon Quar: u want small amounts of same things daily
Eliza Madrigal: bfn..
Zen Arado: ah yes
Wol Euler: bye eliza, take care
Mickorod Renard: bye
Zon Quar: always same
Zen Arado: bye Eliza
Zon Quar: not as a hungry ghost
Zon Quar: u still cling dont u ?
Fefonz Quan: so then you get m oderate suffering Zon, don't you?
Zen Arado: yes and even worse !
Wol Euler: I feel there is a difference, but it's hard to pin it down
Fefonz Quan: sure,
Zon Quar: yes, but suffering still
Fefonz Quan: a difference between what?
Wol Euler: ah, no, that is the point.
Wol Euler: I do not *suffer* from desiring to drink water every day, I just do it.
Zen Arado: it's all attachment
Zon Quar: yes but if i habitually cling to things around me
Wol Euler: I would suffer from feeling that I need to drink champagne in order to impress people who I secretly suspect disrespect me :)
Zen Arado: sorry thats a generalisation
sophia Placebo: water is necessity no?
Fefonz Quan: /nods to Sophia
sophia Placebo: thrist is just an alarm to it ?
Zon Quar: not understanding that all passes and changes
Zon Quar: its clinging
Zen Arado: and everything is impermanent
Mickorod Renard: there are many passages in new testament about thirst and water
--BELL--
Fefonz Quan: and also, clinging and wanting all the time, even small things, place your 'happines' always in the future
Zon Quar: nods to fefong, exactly, wanting certain things
genesis Zhangsun: I just wanted to let everyone know that Eliza and Eos's book club discussing ethics starts now
Mickorod Renard: therev is a very small piece in the new testament,,the woman from samaria,,its very deep and interesting
genesis Zhangsun: http://slurl.com/secondlife/Bieup/179/85/103
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye for now
genesis Zhangsun: I will be going over there now, bfn!
Mickorod Renard: bye yaku
Fefonz Quan: Bye Gen, :)
Bolonath Crystal: bye yak and gen
sophia Placebo: bye yak , gen
Mickorod Renard: bye gen
genesis Zhangsun: bye all!
Wol Euler: oh, yes, good idea.
Qt Core: bye
Zon Quar: is it in Kira ?
Zen Arado: I have to go too
Wol Euler: no, at the link gen just posted
Zen Arado: bye all
Mickorod Renard: bye zen
Bolonath Crystal: bye all :)
Mickorod Renard: I wud like to go too
Wol Euler: northeast of here, you can walk there. follow me
Fefonz Quan: i will need to go to, thanks for the great conversation, all
Wol Euler: bye all, enjoy the day.
Zon Quar: bye all
Wol Euler: see you tomorrow, fef :)
Fefonz Quan: Namaste all
sophia Placebo: bye all ,gotta sleep
Mickorod Renard: bye gef
Mickorod Renard: byer sophia
Wol Euler: 'night sophia, sweet dreams
Mickorod Renard: and anyone else
Qt Core: bye all, then have fun
Wol Euler: walk this way :)
Mickorod Renard: bye qt