2009.10.28 19:00 - Book Club And Pila's Dream

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    The Guardian for this meeting was stevenaia Michinaga. The comments are by stevenaia Michinaga.


    stevenaia Michinaga: Hello Eos
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi Stevenaia
    stevenaia Michinaga: I jsut jsut parcticing my new Tai Chi moves while no one was here (in RL)
    stevenaia Michinaga: how was your day?
    Eos Amaterasu: Cool - Pila has some tai chi balls at his place, so you could synchronize SL/RL
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, he has a nice grouping there
    Eos Amaterasu: Very busy day, one one-hour power failure
    Eos Amaterasu: plus we had another book club mtg at Eliza's house
    stevenaia Michinaga: sometimes a power failure creats new and interesting social situation
    stevenaia Michinaga: s
    Eos Amaterasu gives stevenaia a notecard with a quote from the book, Ethical Know-How
    stevenaia Michinaga: reading... slowly
    Eos Amaterasu: The club is going through the 3-chapter book b Francisco Varela, "Ethical Know-How"
    stevenaia Michinaga: My i put it in the log?
    Eos Amaterasu: Sure... there's actually a preceding sentence I should have added....
    stevenaia Michinaga: feel free to put it in now and I will add your notecard
    Eos Amaterasu: According to Mencius, people actualize virtue when they learn to extend knowledge and feelings from situations in which a particular action is considered correct to analogous situations in which the correct action is unclear...
    stevenaia Michinaga: "For Mencius only truly virtuous people attend to their nature sufficiently well to understand an event in terms of their experience and thus ensure that the appropriate extension follows easily. For the truly virtuous then, moral judgment that results in immediate and spontaneous moral action is not different from true description." - Francisco Varela, Ethical Know-How, Chapter 2 (p 29)
    stevenaia Michinaga: how is the book group going?
    Eos Amaterasu: I have a photo of the book club event I can also add to the logVarelaWhyWouldCareNotManifest.jpg
    Eos Amaterasu: It's fun, a wild experiment
    Eos Amaterasu: PaB 90-sec style resting is I think how that "true description" is allowed
    Eos Amaterasu: it's just resting in how things are
    Eos Amaterasu: not how you would like them to be
    Eos Amaterasu: so you have some ground
    Eos Amaterasu: and some confidence in extending from that
    Eos Amaterasu: or else choicelessness
    Eos Amaterasu: you just do what the situation demands
    stevenaia Michinaga: I put up the beginings of tonight log if you wnat to post the pic while we are here, I'll add the remainder later
    Eos Amaterasu: Cool !
    Eos Amaterasu: I like that - multiple channels!
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: so you don't have to "come back" to the thought
    Eos Amaterasu: an autopoietic situation :-)
    stevenaia Michinaga: fortunaltey being on a laptop all day, the only thing a power outage would do is keep me off the internet, not disrupt work
    Eos Amaterasu: "why would care not manifest" was one of the lines from the club mtg (genesis, I think)
    stevenaia Michinaga: care?
    stevenaia Michinaga: the act of?
    Eos Amaterasu: Yeah, and I think laptops will get better at being asynch net nodes
    Eos Amaterasu: The was re an example Varela gives in the book, of someone spontaneously reaching out to grab a child as he was falling into a well...
    Eos Amaterasu: She gave a counter-example of a group of New Yorkers who chose not to intervene ("someone else must be doing it...")
    stevenaia Michinaga: nods
    Eos Amaterasu: this kind of question comes up in the context of, for example, wondering how to fit PaBing with social change, or problem-solving by groups (sustainability, what doug is involved in)
    stevenaia Michinaga: those moments are mostly reacted upon (the first) and rearly thought about in advance, but show one's true nature
    Eos Amaterasu: I think what Varela sees Mencius as saying is that this can be cultivated
    stevenaia Michinaga: actions speaking louder than wards in this case
    Eos Amaterasu: those moments of showing true nature
    stevenaia Michinaga: I agree that cutivated is a good word in this case as it inplys it exists as a small seed withing all of us somewhere
    Eos Amaterasu: you _enact_ moral being, you don't follow moral behavior
    Eos Amaterasu: comes out of his theory of autopoietic enaction, where cognition comes out of active mutual engagement with world, co-shaping
    Eos Amaterasu: and ethical be-ing is a similar shaping
    stevenaia Michinaga: I was for a short time lisening to Stim's class on Ethics on a website that I was shown.. it is not at all as simple as I would ahve thought

    stevenaia Michinaga: http://berkeleymonastery.org/steven/ethics.asp
    Eos Amaterasu: so meanwhile how do you deal with it :-)
    stevenaia Michinaga: I made the error of listening to 3 weeks of leactures at once... I need to come back to it another time, or find the t ime when I am ready :)
    Eos Amaterasu: heh heh
    stevenaia Michinaga: they were meant to be weekly
    Eos Amaterasu: that's like reading all the Sherlock Holmes and Father Brown stories in one week :-)
    Eos Amaterasu: I put up the picture, by the way
    stevenaia Michinaga: like food, it must be digested sensibly
    stevenaia Michinaga: looks nice there
    stevenaia Michinaga: (the pic)
    Eos Amaterasu: That's another aspect - creating conversational venues - I've been taking walks around the village
    Eos Amaterasu: you have a nice place, with fountain
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, thanks, interesting that one must "touch" a plot to see who owns it
    stevenaia Michinaga: like substituting touch for site
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello paradise
    Eos Amaterasu: I usually walk in it
    Paradise Tennant: hiya steve
    Eos Amaterasu: hi paradise
    stevenaia Michinaga: sight
    stevenaia Michinaga: lol
    stevenaia Michinaga: sight of a site
    Paradise Tennant: :)
    Paradise Tennant: hiya eos ;)
    Paradise Tennant: so did you two dream last night
    stevenaia Michinaga: I don;t think I remember if I did
    Eos Amaterasu: we've been talking about the book club meeting today, and ethical action coming out of the PaB-type appreciating
    Paradise Tennant: ahhh
    Eos Amaterasu: Oh! I saw the note from Pila about his interesting dream
    Paradise Tennant: ;)
    Eos Amaterasu: (speak of the devil :-)
    Paradise Tennant: ;)
    stevenaia Michinaga: online but not here
    stevenaia Michinaga: yet
    Paradise Tennant: ;)
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Pila
    Paradise Tennant: hiya pila :)
    Pila Mulligan: hi Steve, Paradise and Eos
    stevenaia Michinaga: we were about to discuss your dream

    Pila's Dream...

    PRELUDE:  This message pertains to our chat session last night where we agreed to invite a dream (to use a phrase Maxine likes.)  My result was so brief and sublime as to seem to defy description.  The brief dream image was the first dream content of the evening, and as I watched it I thought “ahh, this is the PaB dream.”

    THE DREAM:    The image was two prototypical humans (by this I mean they were generic, unremarkable as to gender, age, etc.) stretched out facing each other head near head on what could be compared to a photographer’s blank backdrop (no foreground or background or even any discernible ground, although it seemed they had been laying down at first.)  The best way to describe the sublime part is that they both sensed the moment and then began to arise.  I appeared to become aware of the moment (thinking “ahh, this is the PaB dream”) at the same time they did, so my observation was of them beginning to arise.  It was so brief that just as they began to arise the dream ended, yet the inference of a simultaneous awareness was profound, even in that brief moment, and an immediate association with our idea of inviting a dream was also an interesting element.


    Pila Mulligan: :) nice timing
    Pila Mulligan: did you also see Fox's message?
    Eos Amaterasu: Stevenaia, last night some of us talked about having a dream
    Eos Amaterasu: I just read it....
    Pila Mulligan: what Maxine calls 'an invited dream'
    Pila Mulligan: last night's posted chat log seems abbreviated :)
    Paradise Tennant: :)
    Pila Mulligan: had you told Steve about the dream I described in the email?
    stevenaia Michinaga: no
    stevenaia Michinaga: this was the series I was talking about
    Pila Mulligan: thanks for the link Steve
    stevenaia Michinaga: take it slowly, Pila
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    Pila Mulligan: ok
    Eos Amaterasu: Okay, just posted last night's log (totally unedited)
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Eos Amaterasu: so you seemed to be at a communication nexus, Pila
    Pila Mulligan: yes, it was an interesting image
    Pila Mulligan: an awakeninbg
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, time and dreams seem so at odds
    Pila Mulligan: btw, I was looking at the wrong PaB log, the Book CLub one, that seems to refer to now :)
    Eos Amaterasu: live, in real time, second life!
    stevenaia Michinaga: wonders if the rate of time passing in the place where dreams come from is different
    Eos Amaterasu: "the place where dreams come from"
    Eos Amaterasu: I like that place
    stevenaia Michinaga: can't be here now can it :)
    Eos Amaterasu: ah, maybe that's it, this is where they come from!
    Paradise Tennant: it sounds like just a wonderful dream expereince :)
    Pila Mulligan: I think the dream had an analogy with SL in sensing the moment and then beginning to arise
    Eos Amaterasu: Btw, I do not have dreams to report :-(
    Pila Mulligan: we wake each othe rup here sometimes
    Pila Mulligan: not yet, Eos :)
    Paradise Tennant: ;)
    Paradise Tennant: i tried hard
    Pila Mulligan: when we sense a moment of awakeneing we then begin to decorate it -- the arising part
    Eos Amaterasu: the dream seemed to be about the intention of inviting a dream
    Paradise Tennant: ;)
    Pila Mulligan: in PaB
    Pila Mulligan: yes, the start of a dream that was also the essence of it
    Eos Amaterasu: Ann Waldman called it "lipstick on shunyata"
    Pila Mulligan: like a holograph
    Paradise Tennant: ;)
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: was this a sleeping dream, Pila, or resting?
    Pila Mulligan: sleeping
    Pila Mulligan: a real dream dream :)
    Paradise Tennant: what did you think when you first awoke from it
    Pila Mulligan: I did not awake from it -- that was the hard part
    Paradise Tennant: oh
    stevenaia Michinaga: I sometimes take a mid-day resting dream for 20 minutes maximun, and I always ahve 2 or 3 different dreams
    Paradise Tennant: what were the other dreams like
    stevenaia Michinaga: mid day nap rather
    Pila Mulligan: I recognized it was the PaB dream and I knew I wanted to remember it so I just kind of held ont 'I need to rememebr tis' while I stayed asleep
    Pila Mulligan: the other ones were kind of odd
    Paradise Tennant: :)
    Paradise Tennant: sigh
    Pila Mulligan: I made no effort to remember the odd ones as I was already seton remembering the firs tone :)
    Pila Mulligan: it was hard to find a description for the image, but the idea of sensing and arising works okay
    Pila Mulligan: sensing, awakening, geetting up
    Paradise Tennant: ;) all are good :)
    Eos Amaterasu: playing with presencing
    Eos Amaterasu: avatarish dreams of our being together
    Paradise Tennant: yes
    Eos Amaterasu: Just looking at this screen makes a diff
    Pila Mulligan: it was funny how the two dream people were remarkably blank identity wise, yet there were plainly much more human that animation graphics -- they were kind of between complete people and SL avis
    Pila Mulligan: dream Ruths :)
    Paradise Tennant: :) and you were looking at them from above :)
    Pila Mulligan: from beside, like a tableau
    Paradise Tennant: they were vertical face to face
    Pila Mulligan: but apart from them
    Pila Mulligan: horzontal
    Pila Mulligan: laying head to head aligned, feet opposite
    Pila Mulligan: then they began to get up
    Pila Mulligan: arising
    Paradise Tennant: faces downward
    Pila Mulligan: yes
    Paradise Tennant: hmm
    Eos Amaterasu: thriller
    Pila Mulligan: they did not really even look at each other
    Pila Mulligan: just started getting up
    Paradise Tennant: levitating still horizontal or .. getting up like from a lying position
    Pila Mulligan: feet /----0 heads 0----\ feet
    Paradise Tennant: hmmm
    Pila Mulligan: no, hands and kness style, like getting up form a mat
    Paradise Tennant: ahh kk
    Pila Mulligan: the latter
    Paradise Tennant: interesting
    Paradise Tennant: as soon as they were vertical it ended
    Pila Mulligan: before
    Pila Mulligan: it ended as they were arising
    Pila Mulligan: it was very brief
    Paradise Tennant: maybe something with in you is ready to blossom to arie ;)
    Paradise Tennant: arise
    Pila Mulligan: about enough time for me to say to meyslef, aha it is the PaB dream
    Pila Mulligan: I think it was more PaB related actually, Paradise
    Pila Mulligan: it did not seem informaitonal for me personally
    Eos Amaterasu: what was the PaB aspect: mutual presence?
    Pila Mulligan: yes, mutual awakening
    Pila Mulligan: head to head dozing some then awareness that awakens then arising
    Eos Amaterasu: blossoming awake
    Pila Mulligan: it was a very lucid image, communicative as such, but difficult to describe
    Pila Mulligan: the substance was in the image of sensing presence
    Pila Mulligan: and a resulting awakeneing and arising
    Pila Mulligan: my guess is it occurred about midinght, or about 6 am your time
    Paradise Tennant: lol I tried very hard to dream .. and as I never remember my dreams .. it surpised me to find I did get a bit of one .. woke up in the middle of the night with one distinct thought
    stevenaia Michinaga: may I include the dream in the the log Pila?

    Inserted dream here  (above)

    Pila Mulligan: yes, Steve
    Pila Mulligan: what thought Paradise?
    Paradise Tennant: pay the cat .. which i wrote down .. on a pad i had put by the bed .. then went back to sleep ..would have been about 4 am .. lol lol
    Paradise Tennant: lol
    Pila Mulligan: what do you associate it with?
    Paradise Tennant: just makes me blinnk
    Paradise Tennant: blink
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: is your landlord catty )
    Paradise Tennant: lol
    Paradise Tennant: no
    Pila Mulligan: I bet you dream -- it is the remembering that take some effot at first
    Paradise Tennant: yes a discipline to be able to hold on to it
    Pila Mulligan: the pad and pen may be hjelpful, but I'd suggest don't jump right up, lay there and let the recolleciton congeal some first
    Eos Amaterasu: I get the impression that we dream quite a lot, but don't remember most of them
    Paradise Tennant: yes
    Pila Mulligan: yes, I agree Eos
    Paradise Tennant: maybe only the most vivid come through
    Eos Amaterasu: and sometimes we can come at our already happening dream
    Eos Amaterasu: reverie
    Pila Mulligan: but similarly how much of the waking hours do we really keep in mind?
    Paradise Tennant: sometimes I find if I am working on something complex I will wake up with the answer in my head
    Paradise Tennant: not sure how it gets there
    Pila Mulligan: forgetting seems to be the rule waking and dremaing
    Pila Mulligan: it gets there by the function-ehancing, rejuvienating role of sleep/dreams
    Pila Mulligan: maybe
    Eos Amaterasu: Need to go...
    Eos Amaterasu: Here's Blondie as young avatar doing "Dreaming": http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x60k3_blondie-dreaming-1979
    Pila Mulligan: bye Eos
    Eos Amaterasu: bye stevenaia, Paradise, Pila
    stevenaia Michinaga: bye Eos, see you soon
    Pila Mulligan: sweet dreams
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, dream time for me too
    Paradise Tennant: ok nite nite steve ..eos sweet dreams
    Pila Mulligan: bye Steve, seleep well
    Pila Mulligan: pay the cat ...? :)
    Paradise Tennant: lol
    Pila Mulligan: I just rememebred one of my odd dreams
    Paradise Tennant: cool
    Pila Mulligan: I wonder if it is associative somehow
    Pila Mulligan: I was with a young freind, kind of an adopted nephew, he is a good athlete
    Pila Mulligan: he had won some medals at a track meet
    Pila Mulligan: older people kept coming up to him and taking his medals from him
    Pila Mulligan: he did not seem to mind and they seemed to treasure them - kind of as vicarious acocmpishmetns
    Pila Mulligan: maybe they were the cats
    Paradise Tennant: :)
    Pila Mulligan: taking vicarious pride in someone elses awards
    Paradise Tennant: hmm
    Pila Mulligan: :0
    Pila Mulligan: a stretch, but maybe is a big word
    Paradise Tennant: :)
    Pila Mulligan: do you have a cat, Paradise?
    Paradise Tennant: no I like cats very well but I have severe allergy to them
    Pila Mulligan: ah
    Paradise Tennant: can die from exposure
    Pila Mulligan: so you need to keep a little distance from them
    Paradise Tennant: anaphalactic response
    Paradise Tennant: sp
    Pila Mulligan: anaphylaxis
    Pila Mulligan: just looked t up
    Paradise Tennant: yep bronchial tubes swell up been hospitalized on a couple of occassions ..blue lips
    Pila Mulligan: yes, I understand
    Pila Mulligan: it is much worse than some peopel imagine -- I have had simialr events
    Paradise Tennant: yes funny lived with them for many years as a kid
    Paradise Tennant: developed it as teenager
    Pila Mulligan: sensitivity can be triggered at any age I've heard
    Paradise Tennant: that was a lovely dream you had pila
    Pila Mulligan: thanks, it seemed to be substaiantial and informative
    Paradise Tennant: sometimes ... a vivid vivid dream can be life changing
    Pila Mulligan: yes
    Pila Mulligan: i rememeber my first vivid dream
    Pila Mulligan: it was simple but memorable
    Paradise Tennant: so you just tell yourself to remember it and you do
    Paradise Tennant: I was trying last night
    Pila Mulligan: after practie, but vivd dreams are like waking, you just have them
    Paradise Tennant: I went to bed ..focused on the intention of doing a kind of loving kindness meditation .. for you three ..and ended up with feline book keeping :)
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: for me the first step to remembering dreams is to wake up slowly
    Pila Mulligan: almost like voluntary sleep paralysis, juts lay there still
    Pila Mulligan: and let the images come to you
    Pila Mulligan: instead of chasing them
    Paradise Tennant: hmm I do wake up slowing usually .. kind of lay still for a while ..then get up pad into the kitchen pour a cup of coffee and go back to bed to sip slowly .. and come to consciousness slowly
    Pila Mulligan: I think the recollection oppoprtunity probably decreases as soon as you move yor body
    Pila Mulligan: well, time for bed
    Pila Mulligan: bye for now
    Paradise Tennant: good nite pila ..may your dreams be arising :)
    Pila Mulligan: thanks


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