2009.11.04 19:00 - Chaos breaks out (again)

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    The Guardian for this meeting was stevenaia Michinaga. The comments are by stevenaia Michinaga.

      Meeting had a late start, I sat quiety for the fist half alone. But at the half hour everyone began to arrive, the conversation continued well after I departed at the top of the hour.

    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Pila
    Pila Mulligan: hi Steve
    stevenaia Michinaga: I was just finishing up paracticing Tai Chi, my cat goes nuts when I do it in the house
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: loves my feet and purrs like crazy
    Pila Mulligan: actually that could make a nice practice element
    Pila Mulligan: cat at feet
    stevenaia Michinaga: cats must love chi
    Pila Mulligan: could be
    stevenaia Michinaga: no, more of a tripping hazard
    Pila Mulligan: that's the practice part
    stevenaia Michinaga: obsolutely
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: moving gracefully through cat obstacles may be worse than sparring with Jet Li
    stevenaia Michinaga: :) I'd like to belive everyone is traveling to Princeton andso they are not here
    Pila Mulligan: well, some are no doubt
    Pila Mulligan: and they plan to be here tomorrow I saw
    Pila Mulligan: or earlier, rather
    stevenaia Michinaga: tomarrow or Friday?
    Pila Mulligan: Friday and Saturday
    Pila Mulligan: "November 6 and 7, many of us at the retreat will join the 1 pm SLT PaB sessions"
    stevenaia Michinaga: I will meet up with them on Saturday
    Pila Mulligan: does your tai chi class do push hands
    Pila Mulligan: ?
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes
    Pila Mulligan: ah, nice
    stevenaia Michinaga: you mean with a partner?
    Pila Mulligan: yes
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes
    stevenaia Michinaga: reminds me of PaB Conversations a bit
    Pila Mulligan: I did a very little at the start, then stopped -- I always wished I'd had more of it
    Pila Mulligan: yes, it is a teaching expereince in itself
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, two people dropping the lead
    stevenaia Michinaga: like a human Oeji board
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: or however you spell it
    Pila Mulligan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ouija
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    Pila Mulligan: there was a Chinese traditionof the flying pen -- a smiilar kind of remotely guided writing insturment
    stevenaia Michinaga: it is truely amazing how much the east and the west differ
    Pila Mulligan: the older traditions of the east seem to be closer to the surgface still, than in the west
    Pila Mulligan: in practice at least
    stevenaia Michinaga: I was thinking the opposite, that they were deeper and more subltle
    Pila Mulligan: technology seems ot change rapidly enought that technology based societies play cathc-up with it
    Pila Mulligan: the east is deepr and more subtle you mean?
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes
    Pila Mulligan: yes, and I meant the west used to have those also
    Pila Mulligan: but they got buried in history
    stevenaia Michinaga: like the secret socities?
    Pila Mulligan: and the industrial revoltuoinwas the whiped cream
    Pila Mulligan: well, all of the metaphysical sciences too
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes
    Pila Mulligan: Celtic lore may have survivied well enough
    Pila Mulligan: but in other cultures the same type stuff is harder to find
    stevenaia Michinaga: tough to think the "next thing" is not 5000 years old
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Zephir
    Pila Mulligan: hi Zeph
    stevenaia Michinaga: care to join us?
    stevenaia Michinaga: aww, the wold changes
    stevenaia Michinaga: worls
    stevenaia Michinaga: d
    Zephir Eclipse: I can see that.
    Zephir Eclipse: I just wanted to see if it made it at all. I can see not.
    Zephir Eclipse: This is a better setting anyways.
    stevenaia Michinaga: we record our conversations here, can we include yours?
    Zephir Eclipse: Of course!
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: thank you
    Zephir Eclipse: Record it for what?
    Pila Mulligan: just chat logs, not a big deal
    Pila Mulligan: posterity :)
    Zephir Eclipse: I see.
    stevenaia Michinaga: here is a not card of what we are about
    Zephir Eclipse: OKie.
    stevenaia Michinaga: feel free to join us anytime
    Zephir Eclipse: Okie*
    Pila Mulligan: more accurately, there's a usually 2-10 of a larger gorup of several dozen people attending one fo the four daily sessiosn here
    Pila Mulligan: the logs let thos einterestd see what happened when they miss one
    Zephir Eclipse: I would love to sometime. I now know I have your landmark. Lol. And like I said you guy have really made a peaceful place out of somewhere where the old strip club I worked at was.
    Zephir Eclipse: Kudos to you.
    Pila Mulligan: this was a strip club
    Pila Mulligan: how nice
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: it wasn't a takeover, belive me
    Zephir Eclipse: *giggles.*
    Zephir Eclipse: It wasn't a very good one, as I see.
    Pila Mulligan: [there is a traidtion here of having 90 second silences every 15 minutes]
    Zephir Eclipse: Well I'll you guys get back to work. It was good meeting you.
    Pila Mulligan: by Zeph, good luck with your searvh
    stevenaia Michinaga: nice meeting you
    Zephir Eclipse: Same to the both of you handsome gents.
    stevenaia Michinaga: wink
    Zephir Eclipse: *smiles sweetly and bows out.*
    Pila Mulligan: bye
    Pila Mulligan: hmm, Play as Lap Dance
    stevenaia Michinaga: I suspect more Play as Pole dance
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: I;m looking forward to Saturday
    Pila Mulligan: regardng ...
    stevenaia Michinaga: always interesting to see people in RL
    Pila Mulligan: oh, of course
    Pila Mulligan: youll be in Princeton then
    Pila Mulligan: hello Bene
    stevenaia Michinaga: the moment of tranformation from SL name to RL name
    Benedizione Vita: hello all
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Bene
    Pila Mulligan: oops
    Pila Mulligan: pardons the caps please
    Pila Mulligan: gi Fox
    stevenaia Michinaga: no, just a special 9 second transition
    Pila Mulligan: hi*
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello fox
    Pila Mulligan: how are you?
    Fox Monacular: Hello Pila, Steve, Benedizione
    Fox Monacular: I'm fine, thanks, how are you?
    Pila Mulligan: fine also, thanks
    stevenaia Michinaga: good
    Pila Mulligan: Steve just mentioned his looking forward to seeing everyone in Princeton
    Fox Monacular: sorry I wasn't there on Monday night, Steve, I grabbed the log and left because of the family gathering
    Fox Monacular: oh, lucky you, Steve!
    stevenaia Michinaga: n.p. it was interesting having the missed the guardian, was that the , Arch Mary evening :), not that was mine on sunday night
    Pila Mulligan: kudos to you for that one, too
    Pila Mulligan: every refereee sports events, Steve?
    stevenaia Michinaga: some evenings here get quite interesting
    Pila Mulligan: you could handle a roller derby
    Pila Mulligan: as referee
    stevenaia Michinaga: lol
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Fox Monacular: yeah, I saw some of it briefly...:)
    stevenaia Michinaga: even from here watching the blood pressure rising gets interesting
    Pila Mulligan: this is what seems to me to be an instance of applying PAB/Kira ideas to real life - not as to individuals, but as to contentious situations
    stevenaia Michinaga: I simply don't understand why people put so much into positioning and posturing
    Pila Mulligan: that type of situation is inevitable
    Pila Mulligan: sometimes
    Fox Monacular: yes, I agree with Pila, I think you handled in really well!
    Fox Monacular: me neither, I don't quite understand...
    Pila Mulligan: SophiaSharon has in several recent logs stated her own perceptionof how ego separates people physically -- it has been quite profounly stated too, and a valuabel insisght
    stevenaia Michinaga: and avoiding their true 'selves" instead of celibrating what one is
    stevenaia Michinaga: thank you
    Fox Monacular: interesting... it seems that to be able to celebrate the true 'self' one has to apply a lot of effort:) to get rid of that huge ego that always gets in the way
    stevenaia Michinaga: it will be interesting to meet her
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, the importance of dropping that which you grasp so strongly
    Pila Mulligan: one thing is obvious, the usual PaB sessions are veritable meccas of polite and freindly gatherings
    Pila Mulligan: we get spoiled by them to a degree
    Pila Mulligan: inuslated form the more contentious gatherings life has to offer
    Fox Monacular: so I guess first one should decide to start doing it, to see some value in it... otherwise these things don't necessarily arise spontaneously
    stevenaia Michinaga: not spoiled, I think it;s applicable everywhere
    Fox Monacular: it is true, Pila! in a way we are spoiled, because when these situations arise, it is like we are forced to re-discover some things about people...:)
    Pila Mulligan: we are compelled to rememeber that all is nort always polite and freindly
    Fox Monacular: but it should be applicable everywhere, for sure!
    Pila Mulligan: yes, it should
    Pila Mulligan: ideally
    Pila Mulligan: but ...
    Pila Mulligan: contentious, offensive and disruptive moments seem to inexorably follow the idea of the ego-compelled sense of physical separation
    Pila Mulligan: not contiunaly, but predcitably
    Pila Mulligan: occasionally )
    Pila Mulligan: welcome back Fox
    Fox Monacular: sorry about that... router playing tricks on me
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: I see it much in what I do... work with contractors, there are some that yell and scream to get things done, there are others that jsut do what needs to be done, no blame, jsut forward motion, then there are others that just drink
    Pila Mulligan: the electron gremlin
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Eden
    Pila Mulligan: yes, Steve, the construction industry certainly has a edgy element to it
    Eden Haiku: This way Aztlan.
    Pila Mulligan: part of the game it seems
    Pila Mulligan: hi Eden
    Fox Monacular: hello Eden, Aztlan
    Fox Monacular: nice to meet you
    Aztlan Foss: hi fox
    Pila Mulligan: edgy energy, like the constant banter between carpenters
    Benedizione Vita: hello aztlan, eden, and fox
    Benedizione Vita: nice suit, aztlan
    Aztlan Foss: thank you
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Aztlan, have you been here before?
    Eden Haiku: Hi Fox. I beleive y ou are from Montreal also?
    Aztlan Foss: first time here
    Fox Monacular: yes, are you here as well?
    Eden Haiku: yes , I am.
    Fox Monacular: :)
    Fox Monacular: fantastique
    Pila Mulligan: bon soir
    stevenaia Michinaga: we record our conversations here and post them to our Wiki, is it ok to inlcuse you?
    Eden Haiku: HI Benedizione. What a blessed name!
    stevenaia Michinaga: include
    Eden Haiku: Pila, nice to see you again;-)
    Pila Mulligan: hi Eden, yes same here
    Eden Haiku: Stvenaia. I had not seen you yet, sorry ;-)
    stevenaia Michinaga: Aztlan?
    Pila Mulligan: ah, symmetry :)
    Fox Monacular: :)
    Benedizione Vita: thank you eden, though of course you were speaking factually ;)
    Benedizione Vita: oh my, I love montreal
    Eden Haiku: Symmetry would be a nice discussion subject.;-)
    Aztlan Foss: yes you can use my text
    Aztlan Foss: I was just reading the notecard
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, my spouse went to college there and travel there yearly for the Jazz Fest
    Eden Haiku: HI Mathieu.
    stevenaia Michinaga: thank you
    Pila Mulligan: Wol (one of the regulars here) loves to try to make the seating pattern symmetrical (an architects joy, I suppose)
    Fox Monacular: nice, we should all get together for another mini retreat here
    Aztlan Foss: was I supposed to do micromeditations during my day?
    Fox Monacular: in Montreal, I mean

    Benedizione changes seating position

    Benedizione Vita: spontaneous symmetry breaking ;)
    stevenaia Michinaga: entropy
    Pila Mulligan: an architect's 'nemisis perhaps :)
    Benedizione Vita: why am I levitating?
    Eden Haiku: Soory, this Matjieu was from MacIntoshers users chat I think ;-) I am confusing messages...
    Benedizione Vita: or an arch-architect ;)
    Fox Monacular: you're levitating because you upset the god of symmetry
    Pila Mulligan: Wol is giving you anit-gavity energy
    Benedizione Vita: hahaha
    Eden Haiku: Yes, you are. ! Whant an evoloved being!
    Eden Haiku: Just like «Foudre Bénie» in Tintin.
    Benedizione Vita: eve-loved--that is quite a slip :)
    Fox Monacular: hehe:)
    Benedizione Vita: welcome to the dark side pila :)
    Pila Mulligan: this could easily becoema game -- symmetry vs anti-symmetry
    Fox Monacular: no, actually Pila just made it symmetrical again
    Aztlan Foss: there's sides?

    People moving positions everywhere

    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: oops
    Fox Monacular: oh no
    Fox Monacular: chaos
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Benedizione Vita: I would move, but I am afraid I will stop levitating hahahaha
    Aztlan Foss: does symetry mean you have two of something?
    Pila Mulligan: more fun to float
    stevenaia Michinaga: breaks out spontainiously
    Pila Mulligan: just a seating pattern with a formula
    Pila Mulligan: 3-2-3-2 or such
    Benedizione Vita: symmetry means something looks the same after some kind of change is applied to it
    Fox Monacular: what does it mean for you to sit on the outside (hehe)
    Benedizione Vita: so you can have rotational, reflection, etc.
    Eden Haiku: Two parts or sides, I suppose. Or more. Two at least...
    stevenaia Michinaga: giggles
    Pila Mulligan: Steve is posing a probem fot he symmetrists
    Benedizione Vita: not necessarily--a sphere has infinitely many symmetries
    Benedizione Vita: (well, depending on how you define a unique symmetry)
    Eden Haiku: Aztlan, in a few minutes a bell will ring. Then we stop chatting for 90 seconds. Just observing.
    Pila Mulligan: a silence to balance the playing
    Eden Haiku: Beautiful!
    Eden Haiku: I can't find my glasses...
    Pila Mulligan: but not yet :)
    Aztlan Foss: oh ok I get it, observing or meditating?
    Pila Mulligan: kind of yes
    Eden Haiku: Kind of both...
    Aztlan Foss: I need to get a meditation book, I've never had much luck just trying the basics and no guidance
    Eden Haiku: Here is a good place to learn Aztlan.
    Pila Mulligan: one of the funnest playing things here is a kind of jungle dance script -- would you like to try it?

    onigokko breaks out in mass

    Aztlan Foss: yeah
    Eden Haiku: yes!
    Pila Mulligan: if you click that script and selcet wear -- we can dance
    Fox Monacular: yes!
    Pila Mulligan: Steve -- ready?
    Fox Monacular: :)
    Eden Haiku: Where do we click?
    Pila Mulligan: be sure your speakers are on also
    Benedizione Vita: how does it work?
    stevenaia Michinaga: I need to find mine
    Pila Mulligan: clcik on the script and then select wear
    stevenaia Michinaga: name pls
    Fox Monacular: you have to right click and select wear
    Fox Monacular: in your recent items
    Benedizione Vita: yes, I have a little tail
    Benedizione Vita: but nothing happens
    Pila Mulligan: onigokko
    Pila Mulligan: let's stop for Steve
    Pila Mulligan: stop
    Pila Mulligan: onigokko
    Aztlan Foss: haha
    stevenaia Michinaga: lol
    Benedizione Vita: stop
    Benedizione Vita: onigokko
    Benedizione Vita: stop
    Benedizione Vita: onigokko
    Benedizione Vita: stop
    Benedizione Vita: onigokko
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Benedizione Vita: hahahah I love this :)
    Benedizione Vita: stop onigokko
    Fox Monacular: hehe, i lost my skirt
    Benedizione Vita: stop onigokko stop stop onigokko
    Aztlan Foss: hehehe
    Pila Mulligan: script was faster than the prims Fox :)
    Pila Mulligan: stop
    Benedizione Vita: stop stop stop onigokko stop onigokkko stop
    Pila Mulligan: isn;t that fun :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    Fox Monacular: :)
    Benedizione Vita: onigokko
    Eden Haiku: It made my day!
    Benedizione Vita: stop
    stevenaia Michinaga: lol
    Benedizione Vita: wow, that is amazing :)
    Aztlan Foss: lol
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: one of the regulars here made that script,I beleive
    stevenaia Michinaga: give meditation a whole new sense
    Fox Monacular: hi snoopy
    Benedizione Vita: fuego!
    Pila Mulligan: it almsot feels like real exercise
    Pila Mulligan: oh, very colorful
    Fox Monacular: wow
    Eden Haiku: This is how good I feel after this little dance!
    Aztlan Foss: her mind is exploding with ideas
    Eden Haiku: ;-)
    stevenaia Michinaga: unfortunately I must go,
    Eden Haiku: An amazing experience Pila, thank you so much.
    stevenaia Michinaga: but thanks for a very happy Wednesday
    Aztlan Foss: take care steve
    Fox Monacular: good night Stece
    Pila Mulligan: bye Steve
    Benedizione Vita: onigokko
    Fox Monacular: Steve
    Eden Haiku: Bye Steve, nice seeing you!
    Pila Mulligan: no escape
    Fox Monacular: stop
    Eden Haiku: Burning life!
    Benedizione Vita: ooh, that's nice fox
    Eden Haiku: Fox you are spectacular!
    Fox Monacular: :)

    I depart and the conversation continues 

    Pila Mulligan: really
    Pila Mulligan: hot blessing and psetactular fox
    Eden Haiku: This is absolutely beautiful. I read on the log you are originally from Russi aren't you Fox?
    Eden Haiku: *Russia
    Fox Monacular: yes, I'm from Moscow
    Fox Monacular: moved to Montreal 10 years ago
    Eden Haiku: I just saw Gorbachev on the News. Talking about Novemebr 9th 1989.
    Fox Monacular: Doug also sent me a link.. the thing is I don't have a tv... so I'm usually behind in news:)
    Eden Haiku: When he made that decision not to intervene when the East Germans broke through the wall.
    Eden Haiku: It changed everything.
    Fox Monacular: yes, it did
    Eden Haiku: You have Sl, so you are totally connected!
    Benedizione Vita: 11:11--time for a rest :)
    Benedizione Vita: goodnight, all
    Aztlan Foss: good night benedizione
    Eden Haiku: Good nite Benedizione!
    Fox Monacular: :)
    Eden Haiku: Pila, is there a Play as Being group?
    Fox Monacular: it's really quite amazing... the connection today... I was showing SL to my grandfather a couple of days ago...
    Pila Mulligan: kind of, but iti not really like a usual SLgroup
    Pila Mulligan: it isomstly people being here
    Eden Haiku: Oh I see..
    Pila Mulligan: at the sessions
    Aztlan Foss: the berlin wall is interesting, I wonder what else could change for the better if people would just agree on it?
    Eden Haiku: I should show SL to my Dad.
    Pila Mulligan: :0
    Pila Mulligan: http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gwWTO_BvBYEAKmMbwniNbCksuj5g
    Eden Haiku: Yes. It takes only a drop of courage or vision and things can transfor isn'it ?
    Fox Monacular: thanks, Pila, I was just reading thi sone too:))
    Aztlan Foss: there should be a collection of ideas out there like that, could be a wish list
    Aztlan Foss: they can start with "It would be cool if...."
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: #1 peace
    Aztlan Foss: that one's hard, though.
    Pila Mulligan: that's why it is #1 :)
    Aztlan Foss: I've heard arguments between people who agree with each other
    Aztlan Foss: they'll agree on everything except how they are sying it
    Pila Mulligan: yes, play as arguing
    Pila Mulligan: until it gets sour
    Aztlan Foss: that WOULD be cool
    Pila Mulligan: #2 love
    Fox Monacular: :)
    Fox Monacular: if #2 happens, wouldn't #1 follow?
    Pila Mulligan: yep, they go hand in hand
    Fox Monacular: :)
    Fox Monacular: wu wei
    Pila Mulligan: yes, stuillnes sis opeaceful, Az
    Fox Monacular: yes, and by being
    Fox Monacular: there must be some evolutionary survival insentive for ego...
    Fox Monacular: so we have to work hard now to counteract it
    Fox Monacular: yes:)
    Fox Monacular: it's scary
    Fox Monacular: to let go
    Fox Monacular: I'm still looking for a guru:)

    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Aztlan Foss: what was it like Eden?
    Fox Monacular: I have my ego all ready on a plate... but noone to give it to yet
    Fox Monacular: in your guru in Montreal, Eden?
    Eden Haiku: Eden, it was like the garden of Eden in her ashram. But then...we were casted out of Eden...
    Pila Mulligan: ego probably persists depsite out best efforts to tame it
    Eden Haiku: No, she was in India.
    Pila Mulligan: so living with it instead of in it may help
    Fox Monacular: cool
    Eden Haiku: I find this place a very cool ashram.
    Fox Monacular: yes, like me and my ego, we decided:)
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Aztlan Foss: hehehe
    Fox Monacular: I guess you have to consult your ego once in a while:)
    Eden Haiku: This garden here, with the gardenias. Pixel gardenias but they remind me the smell of Indian gardenias.
    Pila Mulligan: but now me ego is egging me to ask Eden what ashram i India :)
    Pila Mulligan: not that I am aksing ...
    Eden Haiku: I cannot reveal that Pila. Not on record.
    Pila Mulligan: ok
    Eden Haiku: I could IM you about it or we could discuss it somewhere else,
    Eden Haiku: I'm still in a state of fear.
    Fox Monacular: oh, this is so interesting!
    Pila Mulligan: would you like to tell alittle of the 'kicked out' part?
    Pila Mulligan: anonymously
    Eden Haiku: With you Fox, I could discuss it in RL if you want, in a downtown cafe or something.
    Pila Mulligan: again, no need to doso
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Fox Monacular: :)
    Fox Monacular: would be great!
    Pila Mulligan: cool
    Pila Mulligan: SL -> RL
    Eden Haiku: No no, there was no kicked out.That was a metaphore. I grew out of find. Delusions dispelled.
    Pila Mulligan: ahh
    Pila Mulligan: better
    Pila Mulligan: growing out of is better than kicked anyhting
    Eden Haiku: Yes, I still have pictures of my guru, even if I'm supposed to be detached...
    Pila Mulligan: I have my high school yearbook
    Eden Haiku: Thats the same thing, almost. Really.
    Fox Monacular: I dream about my first love :)
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: expereince is
    Eden Haiku: It would be cool if memories would not hurt.
    Pila Mulligan: the expereince hurt
    Pila Mulligan: memory is close but not exactly the same
    Pila Mulligan: eventually it may not hurt
    Fox Monacular: i think it's good that it hurts sometimes
    Eden Haiku: It would be could if we would never experince pain.
    Eden Haiku: It would not be human, though. I rather be human ;-)
    Aztlan Foss: to be human is to be in pain?
    Fox Monacular: after my first retreat i came home thinking "this is not for me, I don't want to be detached" :)
    Fox Monacular: later I realized it's not necessarily detached:)
    Fox Monacular: oups sorry
    Pila Mulligan: (oh, by the way, you may want to unclick 'wear' on the dance script (in invenotry) as it puts a little tail on your avi to show it is ready to dance when you are wearing it)
    Eden Haiku: The Tibetans say we cannot reach nirvana through any other realm than the human one.
    Pila Mulligan: heaven on earth
    Eden Haiku: Thanks about the tail Pila ...
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Fox Monacular: shambala
    Pila Mulligan: I wonder if that exclude elephant nirvana?
    Aztlan Foss: hehehe
    Fox Monacular: mu!
    Eden Haiku: Mu...Th eIsle of MU, yes..
    Eden Haiku: You look like some deity from MU in your fiery self Fox.
    Fox Monacular: :) I mean if dogs have buddha nature, than elephants do too
    Pila Mulligan: yes, and gardenias, maybe
    Eden Haiku: You doubt that to be in pain is being human Aztlan?
    Aztlan Foss: yes
    Aztlan Foss: I don't think pain is necessary
    Eden Haiku: I guess you are not catholic then...;-)
    Aztlan Foss: and I don't believe we must know pain to know happiness
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Fox Monacular: perhaps it is not so much about pain as it is about experiencing fully
    Eden Haiku: I wonder.
    Fox Monacular: and recpgnising suffering
    Aztlan Foss: hehehe, nope. I think it's a strange to look at the world through pain
    Pila Mulligan: pain = sufferng , eh?
    Aztlan Foss: I know pain exists, but I don't think it's necessary
    Eden Haiku: You are on the way to something here Aztlan. Go on...
    Fox Monacular: i guess so...
    Fox Monacular: sometimes pain is necessary.... like when you give birth, for instance
    Pila Mulligan: and after transcending suffering didn't Buddha add compassion
    Pila Mulligan: compassion for the suffering
    Fox Monacular: right, yes
    Eden Haiku: You are challenging my beliefs but I can see a bit of light in the darkness of mu tunnel-vision here
    Aztlan Foss: yeah I think he put him self through a lot of pain and eventually decided that's not the way to nirvana
    Aztlan Foss: or enlightenment
    Fox Monacular: no, perhaps self-flagellation is not hte way
    Eden Haiku: Yes, after starving himself, Buddha ate a grain of rice
    Eden Haiku: That is when he was enlightened.
    Aztlan Foss: well take the duality of "you have to suffer to know what happiness is", but you can be extreamly happy even if you've never known extreme pain
    Aztlan Foss: you can feel warm and comfortable with out ever suffering through a blizard
    Fox Monacular: but pain is an integral part of how we are in this world... from the moment of birth, through all the rites of passage... and then to the moment of illness or death...
    Fox Monacular: I agree with this, Az
    Eden Haiku: That would be cool if pain would disappear from our programming, would be erased.
    Aztlan Foss: you can feel loved by someone even if you've never been abused by someone
    Fox Monacular: yes, I guess these things are not necessarily semiotic
    Aztlan Foss: but I guess pain helps us correct our actions
    Eden Haiku: The technic of EMDR in psychology does ERASE the pianful memories. They desintegrate. Has any of you experienced EMDR?
    Aztlan Foss: which makes it basicly the main consequence of our actions, pain.
    Eden Haiku: *painful
    Aztlan Foss: so, if you eliminate pain, you eliminate consequences and you have your limtless self.
    Fox Monacular: I guess for me a powerful realization of suffering was giving birth... without anesthetics... so I felt that this is important that life begins like this... and compassion follows kind of naturally out of such an experience
    Aztlan Foss: I don't know what EMDR is :(
    Eden Haiku: Your limitless self back, probably.
    Aztlan Foss: I saw a good movies about memories though. Eternal Sunshine of The Spotless Mind.
    Fox Monacular: eye movement desentisation?
    Fox Monacular: I thought it didn't really work...:)
    Pila Mulligan: googling
    Eden Haiku: That is yes: for post-traumatic stress. A treatment,
    Eden Haiku: Well, I did something like 40 or 50 hours of it. It really helped.
    Aztlan Foss: what did you go through that was so bad?
    Fox Monacular: isn't the rationale for it REM-sleep related nightmares... adn that through EMDR they 'recreate' REM sleep in waking without negative stuff?
    Eden Haiku: That is not the point ;-)
    Eden Haiku: For me, it is more the love of the healers than their technique which was decisive.
    Fox Monacular: did it change your dreams? Eden? I'm really curious, because w eare very interested in ptsd in the lab where I work
    Aztlan Foss: you know sometimes people just need to be able to let their mind go in a supportive environment to really heal
    Eden Haiku: I don't really know if it changed my dreams...
    Aztlan Foss: you can't do it on your own because you need others to validate reality for you
    Eden Haiku: Yes, I think it is very trye Aztlan.
    Aztlan Foss: but, if you're free in your mind in the presense of others, it validates your own world.
    Pila Mulligan: EMDR, that's an interesting therapy (reading abuot it on wiki) -- I'd never heard of it before -- and no doubt love heals (I'd heard of it before:)
    Eden Haiku: This symmetric quadrant of a circe is very powerfully healing for me tonite;-) Thanks!
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Eden Haiku: *circle
    Pila Mulligan: I bet eye exercise can relieve stress to some degree
    Fox Monacular: yes, Eden, it's not that I don't believe in EMDR, on the contrary, I'm really curious!
    Pila Mulligan: eye muscles being so sensitive
    Eden Haiku: I'n not adverstising EMDR...;-) I just pointed out to the fact that pain CAN vanish.
    Fox Monacular: amazing...
    Fox Monacular: you know, they do it for treatment of nightmares too
    Eden Haiku: It would be cool if we could talk all nite long ...
    Fox Monacular: yes:)
    Aztlan Foss: you know, I was just thinking, we tend to think linearly in time
    Aztlan Foss: so we have the past and the future and our memories are the past
    Eden Haiku: Yes?
    Aztlan Foss: but realy, everything is only happening right now
    Eden Haiku: That is so true.
    Aztlan Foss: our memories are as good as being our imagination
    Pila Mulligan: here's another interesting news article on a shallow breathing therpay for asthma -- http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/03/health/03brod.html
    Fox Monacular: yes, and the same brain regions light up when we imagine future as when we remember past
    Eden Haiku: really?
    Aztlan Foss: so, if you exist only now, and you experience all your past pains and gains and thrills, and all your future ambitions and success, what do you end up with now?
    Fox Monacular: yes, there are studies now showing it
    Eden Haiku: Same regions of the brain for past and future? Both virtual I guess...
    Eden Haiku: You get dizzy...
    Aztlan Foss: hahahahaha
    Fox Monacular: yes, exactly:)
    Eden Haiku: ;-)
    Fox Monacular: remembering is an active process that happens in present
    Aztlan Foss: there's a saying that says you're the accumulation of everything you've thought up to now.
    Fox Monacular: your memory of an event depends on your current state a lot
    Aztlan Foss: I think what you end up with is YOU
    Pila Mulligan: memory = imagining at some level, then
    Fox Monacular: yes, exactly
    Aztlan Foss: which, if you realy think about it, you know everything about, which makes it reletively normal
    Fox Monacular: which goes against an idea that we 'store' memories in the brain, like an archive
    Pila Mulligan: so expereince can become memory, affected by imagination
    Eden Haiku: It would be cool if we would know how to live in the now right now.
    Aztlan Foss: yeah I don't see how we can store memories like an archive
    Aztlan Foss: I remember when I was a little kid I thought "wow, when I'm 20 years old I'll be OOOOOOOLD!"
    Fox Monacular: or perhaps, memory is a dynamic process that evolves over time with an individual
    Aztlan Foss: and it seemed like FOR EVER!
    Eden Haiku: Memory works like an hologram. A little shred of our barin contains all.
    Eden Haiku: *brain
    Aztlan Foss: now I see my nieces and nephews and I'm thinking the're growing up lightning fast, but to them it's a slower process
    Fox Monacular: yes, it is so true... time feels very different
    Fox Monacular: like in childhood - summer vacation is a huge thing! now it's like...ok, only one summer,goes by really fast:)
    Eden Haiku: My father is 85 and he seems like running in time. Happily but running so fast.
    Fox Monacular: ok, I really should go sleep... :) baby wakes up in 6 hours!
    Pila Mulligan: g'nit Fox
    Aztlan Foss: night Fox!
    Fox Monacular: thanks for great conversation
    Pila Mulligan: yes, thank you too
    Eden Haiku: Good nite Fox Was really nice talking with you! sweet dreams!
    Fox Monacular: good evening, Pila, nice to meet you Eden and Aztlan
    Aztlan Foss: nie meeting you too
    Pila Mulligan will slip away also
    Fox Monacular: :)
    Aztlan Foss: bye Pila
    Pila Mulligan: bye for now :)
    Eden Haiku: Me too..Bye Pila.



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