2009.11.08 19:00 - Hibernation, Dreams, Mythology and Soup

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    The Guardian for this meeting was stevenaia Michinaga. The comments are by stevenaia Michinaga.

    The session lasted over 2 hours covering a range of topics. Soup (as in a mixture) was a topic that we spoke about in our retreat yesterday in Princeton and it also appeared  (in a food) in the chat between Pila and Calvino here.

    Calvino Rabeni, a new arrival join Pila Mulligan and SophiaSharon Larnia and I until Fox Monacular arrived at the end of the first hour.

    stevenaia Michinaga: hi Pila

    Pila Mulligan: hi Steve

    Pila Mulligan: how are you?

    stevenaia Michinaga: Cal has been over there for quite a while

    stevenaia Michinaga: I am good

    stevenaia Michinaga: how are you, did you read this morning;s meeting log

    Pila Mulligan: ... don't think I've met Calvino yet

    Pila Mulligan: I am fine thanks -- yes, I did

    stevenaia Michinaga: I haven;t met him either but he did accept the PaB notecard

    Pila Mulligan: :) well, hello Calvino -- have a seat if you like

    stevenaia Michinaga: I like the new tag :)

    stevenaia Michinaga: looks for my french maid's outfit

    Pila Mulligan: :)

    stevenaia Michinaga: cal has a "Ways of Tao" group I joined waiting to see if they get together ever

    stevenaia Michinaga: welcome Cal, have you been here before?

    Calvino Rabeni: Hello, never

    stevenaia Michinaga: we record our meetings and post them on the groups Wiki, is it ok to include your comments

    Calvino Rabeni: I saw that, ok

    stevenaia Michinaga: thanks, we prefer to ask :)

    Pila Mulligan: welcome Cal

    stevenaia Michinaga: I was wondering does your Way's of Tao group ever meet?

    Calvino Rabeni: thx. computer is inadequate to operate SL, so avatar is semi zombie I guess

    stevenaia Michinaga: you are fine

    Pila Mulligan: yep, lag happens

    stevenaia Michinaga: move

    Pila Mulligan: mine was like that before I replaced it this summer

    stevenaia Michinaga: this is an exploration group of sorts, sharing ideas and thoughts

    Pila Mulligan: hi Sharon

    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Sharon

    stevenaia Michinaga: Cal is a new guest tonight

    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Pila, Steven, Calvino :)

    Pila Mulligan: how are you?

    stevenaia Michinaga: Sharon and I met at a RL mini retreat this weekend

    Pila Mulligan: I was about to ask about it

    SophiaSharon Larnia: great Pila !!

    Pila Mulligan: :)

    Pila Mulligan: you guys are almost RL neighbors anyway, as I recall

    stevenaia Michinaga: I was there for only one of the days, yes, about an hour or so away

    SophiaSharon Larnia: it was wonderful and so strange at the same time, the strangeness of it wore off quickly though :)

    stevenaia Michinaga: where are you from in RL Cal?

    Pila Mulligan: so I've heard -- the RL presence yields to the Sl familiarity


    Calvino Rabeni: Seattle, and you?

    stevenaia Michinaga: one of the things we do is to take a 90 second short meditation break every quarter hour...

    Pila Mulligan: Steve's question was coincidentally timed to put your answer in the 90 seconds :)

    Calvino Rabeni: yep. time slip

    SophiaSharon Larnia: grins

    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, I should have prepared us for that

    SophiaSharon Larnia: this pavilion looks so different with the small setting

    Pila Mulligan is from Hawai`i -- where are you from Steve?

    stevenaia Michinaga: Pennsylvania

    stevenaia Michinaga: about 90 minutes from Princeton

    Pila Mulligan: ah yes, and

    Pila Mulligan: sharon also

    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes :)

    SophiaSharon Larnia: different direction though

    Pila Mulligan: the picture of the pond at the site was very nice

    Pila posted pictures of the grounds of the IAS in Princeton where the retreat was held

    SophiaSharon Larnia: perfect fall weather

    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, we took walks around it

    stevenaia Michinaga: the area is also a revolutionary war battle field

    Pila Mulligan: I found another one like it on Google

    stevenaia Michinaga: how did you do that?

    Pila Mulligan: you download the picture and use it as a texture

    stevenaia Michinaga: nice pic

    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, Cal, the retreat was in Princeton

    stevenaia Michinaga: overlooking this pond

    SophiaSharon Larnia: cool

    Pila Mulligan: you can take a copy if you like

    SophiaSharon Larnia: you need to set the perms :)

    SophiaSharon Larnia: but that would be great for the building of the room we were in I made :))

    Pila Mulligan: another one from Google map

    Pila Mulligan: Sophia told me by IM how to make them copyable -- so they should be now :)

    SophiaSharon Larnia: yay!! thanks so much,

    stevenaia Michinaga: :)

    SophiaSharon Larnia: they are definitely going in near the building

    Pila Mulligan: :)

    SophiaSharon Larnia: i have a new appreciation of what we are doing here in play as being

    Pila Mulligan: how so Sharon?

    stevenaia Michinaga: can you tell us?

    stevenaia Michinaga: Pema's history story was nice

    stevenaia Michinaga: put things in perspective

    SophiaSharon Larnia: i wont say i didn't understand, but i see how i can integrate things better in real life, sl is so distant sometimes

    Pila Mulligan: :)

    SophiaSharon Larnia: appreciation in a fresh sense

    SophiaSharon Larnia: a new definition of integration also

    SophiaSharon Larnia: and Pema kept us very well fed!!

    SophiaSharon Larnia: what did you think Steve?

    stevenaia Michinaga: I enjoyed the experience

    stevenaia Michinaga: it;s always informative, especially to me relative to PaB (Play as Being)

    stevenaia Michinaga: I have been here for quite a while and there is always more to explore through meditation

    stevenaia Michinaga: always keeps things fresh


    SophiaSharon Larnia: i don't know if there will be a theme session as such, so don't want to spoil anything :))

    Pila Mulligan: was food brought in?

    SophiaSharon Larnia: freshness as a newness

    stevenaia Michinaga: the observing of arising thoughts is, when all other topics fails, a perfect things to watch

    stevenaia Michinaga: no we ate in the cafeteria

    Pila Mulligan: sorry to distract with food thoughts :)

    SophiaSharon Larnia: but it was a great one lol

    stevenaia Michinaga: since have not come from a formal meditative background as most others have

    Pila Mulligan: I'm not sure most have, Steve

    Pila Mulligan: no better than half have I'd say

    stevenaia Michinaga: well this weekend most have

    Pila Mulligan: ahh, i see

    stevenaia Michinaga: did you Sharon?

    stevenaia Michinaga: I know eliza, paradise, Eos, and Pema did, perhaps not adams

    SophiaSharon Larnia: not formally, i have done so many times over the years

    stevenaia Michinaga: then there is ... no me :)

    stevenaia Michinaga: not

    stevenaia Michinaga: :)

    SophiaSharon Larnia: and had one reason or another why it became difficult

    Pila Mulligan: do you have any meditation practice, Calvino?

    Calvino Rabeni: ,'

    Calvino Rabeni: yes, many. but no certificate from a roshi :)

    Pila Mulligan: :)

    SophiaSharon Larnia: nods

    Pila Mulligan: not required :)

    stevenaia Michinaga: interesting roshi was also a jewish sage from the middle ages

    stevenaia Michinaga: assumes that is not what you are speaking of

    Calvino Rabeni: have you taken vows, formal or otherwise?

    Pila Mulligan: not me

    stevenaia Michinaga: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R�shi

    Pila Mulligan: I do the equivalent in practice though

    stevenaia Michinaga: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashi

    stevenaia Michinaga: slightly different :)

    Pila Mulligan: ah, an acronym for the Rabbi

    stevenaia Michinaga: no, he was a person

    Pila Mulligan: :)

    Pila Mulligan: "Shlomo Yitzhaki, better known by the acronym Rashi (Rabbi Shlomo Yitzhaki), (February 22, 1040 - July 13, 1105), was a medieval French rabbi famed as the author of the first comprehensive commentary on the Talmud"

    Pila Mulligan: appreciation is a nice term

    stevenaia Michinaga: awww

    Pila Mulligan: :)

    stevenaia Michinaga: quite a bit to read

    SophiaSharon Larnia is feeling very appreciative of things

    SophiaSharon Larnia: rephrase that

    SophiaSharon Larnia: not things exactly. but of feeling more peaceful with present situations

    Pila Mulligan: yes, appreciation as awareness

    Calvino Rabeni: if this group had a mind, what would it say about "imagination"?

    Pila Mulligan: quite a bit, I imagine :)

    SophiaSharon Larnia: great question

    Pila Mulligan: this can be a verbose group :)

    SophiaSharon Larnia: imagination as varied as the participants, there are many

    stevenaia Michinaga: part of what the point of this group is, is to have a minds, not in a common sense but in a way we understand each other over time


    Calvino Rabeni: OK then, if you had only 1 bit to express the feeling, would it be "good" or "bad"?

    stevenaia Michinaga: inclusive

    SophiaSharon Larnia: good and bad are relative

    Pila Mulligan: ... it may be even unavoidable (as intrinsic or essential) -- how about yourself, Cal?

    Pila Mulligan: what say ye?

    stevenaia Michinaga: :0

    Calvino Rabeni: Good.

    Pila Mulligan: yep

    SophiaSharon Larnia: i have never found a group as inclusive as this one

    Pila Mulligan: there are some neurologically oriented people here, and some dream oriented people here, they would agree

    stevenaia Michinaga: the expectation here is for each of us to explain our thoughts, not to argue or judge

    Pila Mulligan: yes, Sharon, diverse and inclusive

    SophiaSharon Larnia: laughs :)

    stevenaia Michinaga: and as bad a typist as we are

    Pila Mulligan: speak for thyself Steve

    Pila Mulligan: I never have tpyos

    SophiaSharon Larnia: no, i think i earn that title sometime

    stevenaia Michinaga: I'll be happy not to spellcheck your typos Pila , grins

    Pila Mulligan: thnaks

    SophiaSharon Larnia: giggles

    SophiaSharon Larnia: as wol has said typos are sl body language

    Pila Mulligan: to some we may be little more than the end result of a very imaginative Being

    stevenaia Michinaga: or a way for Freud to speak through us

    SophiaSharon Larnia: we do tend to start at the end :))

    Calvino Rabeni: :)

    stevenaia Michinaga: Play as Being was meant to recognize that we may not understand Being,but through Playing as we do, we will going a better sense of what Being is

    stevenaia Michinaga: by starting at the end

    SophiaSharon Larnia: drop what you have to see what you are

    stevenaia Michinaga: and that what we do here

    stevenaia Michinaga: and you are welcome to return anytime Cal

    SophiaSharon Larnia: sometimes just a few people, other times, a lot!

    SophiaSharon Larnia: i have to go, take care!!

    SophiaSharon Larnia: waves

    Pila Mulligan: bye Sharon

    Pila Mulligan: nice to see you

    Calvino Rabeni: i will get new computer, then be articulate in future

    Pila Mulligan: hi Fox

    stevenaia Michinaga: we will be here, I suspect

    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Fox

    Fox Monacular: hi Pila, Steve, Calvino

    Pila Mulligan: beginning at the end are you :)

    Pila Mulligan: Sharon just left, after noting that PaB phrase

    Fox Monacular: :)

    Fox Monacular: what is this picture behind me?

    Pila Mulligan: the pond at the retreat place

    Fox Monacular: sorry I'm late, btw...

    Fox Monacular: how nice...

    Pila Mulligan: you are on time for now

    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, we had perfect weather and a view of this pond

    Fox Monacular: ah, yes, that's right, you were there too!

    stevenaia Michinaga: for yesterday

    Fox Monacular: how was it?

    stevenaia Michinaga: very nice

    Fox Monacular: have you met others before?

    stevenaia Michinaga: you leave with a new stillness

    stevenaia Michinaga: had just met Pema and Adams in RL, and Maxine but she had already left

    Fox Monacular: :)

    Fox Monacular: i guess it's an old question, but do you find RL people correspond to your impression of their SL avatars?

    stevenaia Michinaga: after meeting them I find their SL avatars are now imprinted by the RL images

    Pila Mulligan: the answers I've heard to the same question have been consistently like that -- and that a familiarity is near instantaneous

    stevenaia Michinaga: the avatar fades


    Pila Mulligan: Steve, regarding my comments about mudras last night, I erred in referring to 'grasp the bird's tail' when I meant 'crane's beak' -- just errata for the record

    stevenaia Michinaga: awww, ok

    Pila Mulligan: :)

    Pila Mulligan: http://financenow.ca/push/1503/Donna...gle%20whip.jpg

    Pila Mulligan: the right hand in the photo -- it is a kind of tai chi mudra

    Fox Monacular: I didn't know mudras were used in tai chi!

    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, I do that

    Pila Mulligan: mudras show up all over the place Fox

    Fox Monacular: I only knew about hindu/buddhist mudras...

    Fox Monacular: are these the same in tai chi?

    Pila Mulligan: have you learned many?

    Pila Mulligan: some are close

    Fox Monacular: no I haven't really learned any, although in the tibetan center I go to sometimes they give teachings on mudras

    Pila Mulligan: from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mudra -- One hundred and eight mudras are used in regular Tantric rituals. Mudras are also used in Indian Classical Dance. There are over 200 mudras in bharatanatyam, and over 250 in mohiniattam.

    Fox Monacular: but in a zen center they use a mudra for sittings

    Pila Mulligan: yep, commonly the thumb touching the forefinger

    Fox Monacular: amazing

    Pila Mulligan: :)

    Fox Monacular: yes:)

    Pila Mulligan: oh, zen

    Pila Mulligan: they have their own

    Pila Mulligan: hand on top of hand -- a nice one

    Pila Mulligan: http://www.indianetzone.com/38/images/DhyaniMudra_18880.jpg

    Pila Mulligan: there's nice Chinese variation of that one where the thumb touches the base of the middle finger

    Fox Monacular: yes, it's like that that we use, although you are supposed to imagine you're holding a sphere

    Pila Mulligan: :)

    Fox Monacular: so it's more circular

    Pila Mulligan: yes, all related to energy in an around the hands

    Fox Monacular: and elbows are not touching the body, so it takes quite a lot of effort to sustain

    Fox Monacular: right

    Pila Mulligan: posture is important for many things

    stevenaia Michinaga: I'll be right back

    Pila Mulligan: ok Steve

    Calvino Rabeni: This interest in mudras is an artistic endeavor? Or ethnographic?

    Pila Mulligan: probably a mixture, Calvino

    Pila Mulligan: practical for me

    Pila Mulligan: perhaps artistic :0

    Fox Monacular: sorry, router playing tricks on me... I think I just missed a few comments... after steve said he'll be right back:)

    Pila Mulligan: [20:09] Calvino Rabeni: This interest in mudras is an artistic endeavor? Or ethnographic? [20:09] Pila Mulligan: probably a mixture, Calvino [20:09] Pila Mulligan: practical for me [20:10] Pila Mulligan: perhaps artistic :0

    Fox Monacular: thank you Pila!

    Fox Monacular: just interesting for me...

    Pila Mulligan: last night Steve and I were talking about various mental states, and one of them was fascination

    Fox Monacular: no specific goal in sight:)

    Pila Mulligan: I once learned a mudra for fascination and wanted to tell him about it

    stevenaia Michinaga: back

    Pila Mulligan: welcome back

    Fox Monacular: mudra for fascination? sounds awesome!

    Pila Mulligan: it is somewhat similar to crane's beak in tai chi

    Pila Mulligan: where the four fingers kind of gather around the thumb i the middle

    Pila Mulligan: slightly curved

    Pila Mulligan: in the fascination mudra the thumb touches the middle finger and the ring finger folds down to the palm

    Pila Mulligan: it is intended to balance the impact or effect of fascination


    Calvino Rabeni: Are they more symbolic/conventional or considered psychoactive?

    Fox Monacular: it is so interesting that you see fascination as a mental state

    Pila Mulligan: :)

    Pila Mulligan: well, I suppose it could be either Cal, insofar as you can give symbolism an active element

    Pila Mulligan: and Fox, what else would it be?

    Fox Monacular: I'm confused about separation between 'states'... you know in mainstream science they talk about 'altered' states, or normal states

    Pila Mulligan: ahh

    Fox Monacular: but I definitely see what you mean

    Pila Mulligan: maybe condition would be less forceful

    Pila Mulligan: a simpler state of mind :)

    Fox Monacular: for instance I always thought it weird to talk about dreaming as an 'altered' state

    Pila Mulligan: :)

    Pila Mulligan: Cal asked earlier about imagination -- all in the same boat

    Fox Monacular: yes, exactly

    Pila Mulligan: fascination being just a greater degree of interest

    Fox Monacular: imagination, or remembering, or immersion...

    Pila Mulligan: however, I once read about how the fifth bardo in the Tibetan scheme is the bardo of fascination

    Fox Monacular: oh, cool

    Pila Mulligan: where you can be enchanted by things that lead you into your next incarnation

    Calvino Rabeni: :(

    Fox Monacular: enchanted in sense of clinging, or positive enchantment?

    Pila Mulligan: probably a degree of interest

    Pila Mulligan: like, wow that looks cool

    Fox Monacular: like I like to sleep so much... oh, might be reincarnated as a bear

    Pila Mulligan: :)

    Pila Mulligan: anyone ever wire bears for their dreams?

    Fox Monacular: although chances are slim... there are less and less bears around

    Fox Monacular: what do you mean, Pila?

    Pila Mulligan: I wonder if hibernating animals dream much

    Pila Mulligan: and if so, could it be detected electronically

    Fox Monacular: oh.. yes, it can be detected, definitely.! but I don't know if anyone has ever done so... probably not yet

    stevenaia Michinaga: sure, looks for REM in bears

    Fox Monacular: well, REM sleep can be detected

    Fox Monacular: :)

    Pila Mulligan: figure a dream that lasts for months could become a stable reality

    Fox Monacular: seriously... I wonder if they have out of body experiences:))

    stevenaia Michinaga: would hate to meet a bear with an out of body experience

    Pila Mulligan: :)

    Fox Monacular: :))

    Pila Mulligan: reminds me of Chaung Tze

    Fox Monacular: ok, looks like in squirrels non-REM is 80% and REM 20% both during the year and in hibernation

    Pila Mulligan: ahh -- so that is 80% dreaming?

    Pila Mulligan: or vice versa

    Fox Monacular: no, 20% dreaming

    Pila Mulligan: ok, thanks

    Fox Monacular: although we know that there's dreaming in non rem sleep as well


    Fox Monacular: just not as intense and complex

    Pila Mulligan:

    "Once Zhuangzi dreamt he was a butterfly, a butterfly flitting and fluttering around, happy with himself and doing as he pleased. He didn't know he was Zhuangzi.  Suddenly he woke up and there he was, solid and unmistakable Zhuangzi. But he didn't know if he was Zhuangzi who had dreamt he was a butterfly, or a butterfly dreaming he was Zhuangzi."

    Fox Monacular: :))

    Calvino Rabeni: shamanism, anyone?

    Fox Monacular: not yet:)

    Pila Mulligan: Once Smokey and Rocky dreamt they were in SL happy and doing as they pleased. ... :)

    stevenaia Michinaga: if you search the wiki, I do remember there were discussions centered around that

    Fox Monacular: oh, during the 90 sec I had a thought - you know russian has roots in sanskrit, and 'mudryj' in russian means wise... thinking about the relation to mudras:)

    Pila Mulligan: Smokey the Bear and Rocket J. Squirrel, of course

    Pila Mulligan: cool

    Pila Mulligan: I was reading about a scholar attributing sanskrit to northern cultures before it got to India

    Fox Monacular: (blushingly) are they cartoon characters?

    Pila Mulligan: yes

    Pila Mulligan: :)

    Fox Monacular: thanks:)

    Fox Monacular: also, budit' in russian in to wake up... like buddha... the awakened:))

    stevenaia Michinaga: that's moose and squirrel, Pila

    Pila Mulligan: not bullwinkle

    stevenaia Michinaga: ok, sorry

    Pila Mulligan: http://www.lyndasfuntimejunction.com/images/smokey1.jpg http://www.ss-peterandpaul.net/images/Rocky_300.gif

    Pila Mulligan: do mosse hibernate?

    Pila Mulligan: maybe bullwinkle would work too

    Fox Monacular: moose? I don't think so... thinking about all those northers hotels/ cabins with pictures of moose in the snow:)

    Pila Mulligan: yep

    Fox Monacular: also wikipedia says: Animals that hibernate are in a state of torpor, differing from sleep. Hibernation markedly reduces the need for sleep, but does not remove it. Hibernating animals end their hibernation a couple of times during the winter so that they can sleep

    Pila Mulligan: interesting

    Pila Mulligan: well then, so much for the idea of being a bear to get some extra sleep time

    Fox Monacular: yes, looks like they don't get such a great deal after all

    stevenaia Michinaga: hate to leave in the mist of a hibernation discussion, but tomorrow is closing in on me

    Pila Mulligan: I think Gaya has mentioned the Korea Shamanism religion from first hand experience

    Pila Mulligan: bye Steve, sleep well

    stevenaia Michinaga: night, nice to meet you Cal

    stevenaia Michinaga: night Pila, Fox

    Fox Monacular: actually I should go too

    Calvino Rabeni: CU again

    Pila Mulligan: bye Fox, sweet dreams

    Fox Monacular: good night Steve, Pila, Cal

    Pila Mulligan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_shamanism

    Fox Monacular: thank you Pila, I will definitely read it later:)

    Pila Mulligan: Gaya is one of the regulars here, originally from Korea


    Apparently Calvino stepped out of a moment.... 

    Pila Mulligan: well, Cal, there you have it -- your first Play a s Being session

    Pila Mulligan: bye for now


    Pila Mulligan: welcome back :)
    Calvino Rabeni: It will be NICE to have a better SL capable system. I have empathy for the disabled.
    Pila Mulligan: this wiki site has the chat logs and more information – http://playasbeing.wik.is/Chat_Logs/2009
    Pila Mulligan: yes, when I was in the same boat it was quite limiting – SL capable system that is
    Calvino Rabeni: When I disappeared I went to a slightly better system. Like my avatar had a double espresso.
    Pila Mulligan: part of my problem is not having real broadband, but getting a better speced system hepled
    Pila Mulligan: I get about a 500 kb connection at best
    Calvino Rabeni: So this group, has some norms in addition to politeness listening and intelligence, I assume.
    Pila Mulligan: well, it depends, those are the fundamental norms
    Pila Mulligan: there are quite a few add-ons, but not quite as deeply etched as friendly and polite
    Pila Mulligan: you can see much of it on the website
    Pila Mulligan: the organizer of the group is into Phenomenology
    Calvino Rabeni: I read the "about" stuff - haven't sifted thru the logs however.
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: so a lot of the talk is about a kind of Phenomenology filtered through meditation practices
    Pila Mulligan: as in Being
    Calvino Rabeni: Is there a "supposed to sound buddhist" flavor?
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: no, but there is a kind-of sounds Buddhist experience
    Pila Mulligan: there are quite a few Buddhists, but there are all sorts, in addition
    Pila Mulligan: there have been some very interesting sessions on Islam, Franciscan Christianity and other subjects
    Pila Mulligan: and some talk just about mundane events
    Pila Mulligan: Fox works in a university dream lab, she always has some interesting ideas in that realm
    Pila Mulligan: one of the regulars is an MD from Seattle whose practice includes dream work, so when they get together it is especially interesting
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm in Seattle. It's interesting to know your RL-adjacent persons.
    Pila Mulligan: yep
    Pila Mulligan: the group that met in Princeton this weekend was mostly from around there, but some came from further away
    Pila Mulligan: dream workshop: http://www.kira.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=106&Itemid=136
    Pila Mulligan: Kira Cafe is kind of the parent organization fro this group
    Calvino Rabeni: This weekend I attended a workshop by mythologist Michael Meade. It’s not my main thing, but I found it evocative.
    Pila Mulligan: yes, it is quite interesting to me also -- but not a main thing
    Pila Mulligan: I love Joseph Campbell
    Calvino Rabeni: The perspective was - that we're living together in a dream - we think of it as "culture".
    Pila Mulligan: removing the distinction between dreaming and waking can kind of lead to imagination as a source of Being
    Pila Mulligan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Campbell
    Pila Mulligan: Campbell kind of approached it from the other end -- culture is composed of myth
    Pila Mulligan: as opposed to culture is a dream
    Pila Mulligan: but similar
    Calvino Rabeni: Not sure about that distinction. If culture is composed of myths, then what is their container or medium?
    Pila Mulligan: that is the fine distinction -- does the dream contain the culture or does the culture contain the dream
    Pila Mulligan: it may be impossible to say
    Pila Mulligan: I tend to relate to the world I see as if it is the container
    Pila Mulligan: see, in the waking sense
    Pila Mulligan: so that the dreams and myths that create culture come from that world
    Pila Mulligan: but I can easily see the converse, that the waking world is but a dream
    Calvino Rabeni: Apropos your earlier comment
    Calvino Rabeni: http://www.amazon.com/Waking-Dreams-Mary-M-Watkins/dp/0882143247
    Pila Mulligan: :) i think lucidity is the best common descriptor
    Pila Mulligan: wherever it is found
    Calvino Rabeni: I often think it's good to look at the attitude around words like "but"
    Pila Mulligan: do you have a main thing? (relating back to your earlier comment about mythology)
    Calvino Rabeni: No, I have no main thing. I have had many of those, but now it's an aged soup.
    Calvino Rabeni: And I may have some new things coming.
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: my main thing would be classical Chinese philosophy
    Calvino Rabeni: Nice
    Calvino Rabeni: Well, one book I have is "Sung dynasty uses of the I Ching".
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: 900 year old soup in China, a reality I think?
    Pila Mulligan: well, the Sung dynasty was not the first to rely on the I Ching :)
    Calvino Rabeni: The interesting thing is the cycle of elaboration and codification, I think, which has been repeated
    Pila Mulligan: Chinese history is probably the best cultural laboratory around in terms of depth
    Pila Mulligan: just as the book says, the Sung leaders all used the I in their own ways, it has always been like that -- the depth of the I allows many uses
    Pila Mulligan: continuity within change being a common theme in most of them
    Calvino Rabeni: so you could call the I a phenomenological proto-science I suppose.
    Pila Mulligan: yes
    Pila Mulligan: I would -- even just science is ok with me :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Ok here too
    Pila Mulligan: it still has things to teach even in terms of modern science
    Calvino Rabeni: If that's true, then it's open to further development.
    Pila Mulligan: yep
    Calvino Rabeni: So how do you do that without being accused of cultural appropriation
    Calvino Rabeni: or muddying the historiographical waters
    Pila Mulligan: it is probably a matter of timing
    Pila Mulligan: science has to find it
    Pila Mulligan: the I cannot teach it directly
    Pila Mulligan: to me the likely missing link is yin
    Calvino Rabeni: Well I find that suggestive.
    Pila Mulligan: here is a step -- http://nextbigfuture.com/2009/03/theory-of-space-time-with-quantum-scale.html
    Pila Mulligan: it seems to me that yin as a concept is too common to be misappropriated -- it was part of almost all traditional 'science'
    Pila Mulligan: a fractal subset of state space is just right there on the edge of the I, in my alleged brain
    Calvino Rabeni: If you tried to grasp it as phenomena in cultural life, cast a line into the abyss, what would come up on the hook?
    Pila Mulligan: non-repetitive empiricism
    Pila Mulligan: science give lip service to empiricism. and I say lip-service because it imposes the limitation of repetition
    Pila Mulligan: if it cannot be repeated it is not a valid observation
    Pila Mulligan: but that is challenged by the unique circumstances of the observation
    Calvino Rabeni: Repetition - part of that idea I think is "easy", which is a yang property
    Pila Mulligan: yes, that is sensible
    Pila Mulligan: but take cold fusion, as an example
    Pila Mulligan: i do not know what cold fusion is actually
    Pila Mulligan: but I read that some scientists claim they did it
    Pila Mulligan: and some claim they cannot
    Pila Mulligan: so what is the difference, if they are not frauds
    Pila Mulligan: science is compelled to conclude they are frauds or looneys
    Pila Mulligan: maybe they are not
    Pila Mulligan: do you know any good onion recipes?
    Pila Mulligan: i have too many onions and it is dinner time here (7:30 pm)
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, any recipe is good when onions are added.
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Are you in Hawaii?
    Pila Mulligan: yes
    Pila Mulligan: thin sliced with cukes maybe
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes. Tomatoes ok with that also
    Pila Mulligan: yep
    Pila Mulligan: well, now my food imagination is active, so I'll excuse myself Cal
    Pila Mulligan: nice to meet you
    Calvino Rabeni: likewise. again some time.
    Pila Mulligan: see you next time
    Calvino Rabeni: good bye
    Pila Mulligan: bye
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    Originally written on 13:51, 09 Nov 2009
    **Fox Monacular: like I like to sleep so much... oh, might be reincarnated as a bear**

    That's it, Fox! You and I will reincarnate as part of a bear sloth! And yes, that is the word for a group of bears! No kidding! :)
    Posted 12:15, 9 Apr 2010
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