2009.11.15 07:00 - Love: Detached, Attached, or All you Need

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Adams Dubrovna. The comments are by Adams Dubrovna.

    Adams Dubrovna: Good morning Eliza :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Good Morning Adams! :)
    Bolonath Crystal: namaste :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Namaste, Bolonath! :)
    Adams Dubrovna: Hello Bolonath :)
    Love Indicates Reality
    Eliza Madrigal: Bolo, I read your recent session and enjoyed it much.
    Bolonath Crystal: ty :)
    Eliza Madrigal: And the title you chose "love indicates reality" taken from a line ... seems a whole serious of sessions could be made of that :))
    Bolonath Crystal: i hoped to provoke something like that ;)
    Eliza Madrigal smiles
    Adams Dubrovna loves typos like "whole serious of sessions"
    Eliza Madrigal: heheh
    Adams Dubrovna: I did not read the session yet, could you say more?
    Eliza Madrigal: In another session, there was discussion of 'detachment' and the feeling I got was that sometimes we can be so clinical about contemplative things... intellectual
    Eliza Madrigal: trying to get the formulas right
    Adams Dubrovna: Hello Marian :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Marian :)
    Bolonath Crystal: namaste marian
    Adams Dubrovna: Welcome Marian. I will give you a notecard about our group
    Eliza Madrigal: So this morning I can't help but contrast the two ideas... detachment as in giving nurturing space... as opposed to clinical distance
    Marian Emolite: OK
    Bolonath Crystal: afk for 2 min
    Eliza Madrigal: Sure :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Adams, this is Bolo's session : http://playasbeing.wik.is/Chat_Logs/...icates_reality
    Adams Dubrovna begins reading...
    Adams Dubrovna: Marian, our conversations are recorded and placed on a Wiki. Do you have any problem with that?
    Bolonath Crystal: <-- back
    Eliza Madrigal: WB Bolo :)
    Bolonath Crystal: thx :)
    Marian Emolite: nope..reading the notecard right now...
    Adams Dubrovna: I am having trouble seeing the connection between the title and the discussion
    Adams Dubrovna: what am I missing?
    Adams Dubrovna: If you have any questions Marian, please ask :)
    Marian Emolite: ty :)
    Adams Dubrovna: whoops, missed the stop
    Bolonath Crystal: the title refers to the quote:' every world where love is possible is real' or so
    Eliza Madrigal: I like the line, and that one also, because it points to something difficult to discuss...
    Widget Whiteberry: Hello, sorry to be late
    Eliza Madrigal: and the detachment discussion also, in a funny way.
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Widget :)
    Bolonath Crystal: hello widget
    Adams Dubrovna: Hello Widget :)
    Widget Whiteberry: ☆smiles☆
    Eliza Madrigal: Love/connection as ab 'indicator' of aliveness/reality
    Love and Attachment
    Bolonath Crystal: can there be love without attachment, iyo?
    Marian Emolite: Hi Widget
    Eliza Madrigal: yes I think so...
    Widget Whiteberry: Detached love?
    Eliza Madrigal: but not unattachment
    Widget Whiteberry: Is 'attachment' an agreed upon construct?
    Eliza Madrigal: Detached as in attached in a larger context
    Eliza Madrigal: Widget, good question
    Eliza Madrigal: I was noting this morning that sometimes we talk about detachment in the context of contemplation/watching thoughts, etc... and sometimes it can be taken it for distance in a cold way
    Adams Dubrovna: Seems to me attachment comes from the brain and love from someplace else
    Eliza Madrigal: Hmmm
    Eliza Madrigal: larger context
    Widget Whiteberry: hmmm, the architecture of the brain drives pattern recognition, connection, attachment
    Eliza Madrigal: seeking to understand, you mean
    Eliza Madrigal: ?
    Connection and Kinship
    Widget Whiteberry: and connected to our entire neural networks
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Widget Whiteberry: Seems to me that 'love' describes some level of 'attachment'
    Widget Whiteberry: in a very particular sense, in that we feel connected
    Widget Whiteberry: interested in the well being of the other
    Widget Whiteberry: kinship is a term I've been using
    Eliza Madrigal: We've had discussions of layers/kinds of love... love in various contexts...
    Widget Whiteberry nods
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh! Kinship!
    Giving and Taking Love
    Bolonath Crystal: there are two aspects of love. one wants to give, the oter wants to take. and maybe that has to be like that, as it is not possible to give unless there is something willing to take
    Widget Whiteberry: can't there be a balance point between those aspects?
    Eliza Madrigal: Well and there is this idea of the giving being in the taking, too
    Bolonath Crystal: i think so, widget
    Eliza Madrigal: the departure in the arrival
    Adams Dubrovna: I don't think that love needs to be "taken"
    Eliza Madrigal listens
    Bolonath Crystal: well, maybe better 'accepted'
    Bolonath Crystal: namaste yak
    Adams Dubrovna: There is a kind of completeness when accepted
    Adams Dubrovna: Hello Yakuzza :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi yakuzza :)
    Adams Dubrovna: but love can be given freely
    Adams Dubrovna: there for the accepting
    Adams Dubrovna: or not accepting
    Eliza Madrigal: And that would be a kind of detachment?
    Adams Dubrovna: I really feel love is separate from attachment/detachment
    Adams Dubrovna: Maybe that is my understanding
    Widget Whiteberry: Adams, how do you define attachment/detachment? what do you mean by those words?
    Adams Dubrovna: now connection is something else :)
    Eliza Madrigal: hm.. yes I hear you. There is something I was trying to work out this morning, love as the indicator of reality...as it is... and our 'approaches' to seeing reality, contemplative and otherwise
    Oh my! Missed two 90 second stops this session
    Adams Dubrovna not doing a good job watching the clock this morning
    Eliza Madrigal smiles
    Adams Dubrovna: To me attachments are things that get in the way
    Widget Whiteberry nods
    Adams Dubrovna: maybe we are thinking of attachment/detachment differently
    Adams Dubrovna: Love is just there
    Bolonath Crystal: to me attchment is any form of clinging to something... or the opposite
    Adams Dubrovna: all we have to do is let love flow
    Widget Whiteberry: 'attachment theory' in a psychological sense is different
    Adams Dubrovna: not get in the way
    Widget Whiteberry: Attachment theory is a psychological, evolutionary and ethological theory concerning relationships between humans. The most important tenet of attachment theory is that a young child needs to develop a relationship with at least one primary caregiver for social and emotional development to occur normally. The theory was formulated by psychiatrist and psychoanalyst John Bowlby.[1]
    Widget Whiteberry: Different glossaries!
    Eliza Madrigal: So the child forms a basis for attachment which then carries into the next... a growing web
    Eliza Madrigal: which should be a kind of security
    Widget Whiteberry: Attachment is what allows the child to develope, to thrive
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Widget Whiteberry: it's what allows you and I to relate to each other
    Widget Whiteberry: where we each understand the other to be a being
    Bolonath Crystal: that seems absolutely neccessary for any social being
    Widget Whiteberry nods
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Eliza Madrigal: and to be social/sharing/open, one has to have a kind of trust, perhaps, in that larger web...
    Eliza Madrigal: at any given point, a particular attachment can become unreliable...
    Eliza Madrigal: so...hm...contextual
    Eliza Madrigal: And then there is a kind of freedom in that I think
    Eliza Madrigal: (still thinking aloud...thanks for walking through this with me -hah)
    Widget Whiteberry: a favorite rl group of mine, Bioneers
    Widget Whiteberry: used to have a tag line that said something like
    All Connected, All Relatives
    Widget Whiteberry: we are all aware, we are all connected, we are all relatives
    Widget Whiteberry: where 'we' was more than humanity
    Eliza Madrigal smiles broadly...very nice
    Adams Dubrovna: yes, we are all connected, all realtives :)
    Adams Dubrovna: relatives :)
    Bolonath Crystal: so altruism is a kind of 'egoism on a higher level'
    Adams Dubrovna: for me love seems to grow from recognizing that connection
    Eliza Madrigal nods... yes no need to get hung up on 'no' rules like "don't be attached!" "be mindful!", if one sets their heart on the larger web
    Widget Whiteberry: if egoism = mindfullness
    Eliza Madrigal: Hmmm, nods nods
    Bolonath Crystal: sorry, i have to leave early today
    Widget Whiteberry: bye!
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Bolo :) Nice to see you
    Bolonath Crystal: om shanti :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Om Shanti
    Eliza Madrigal: I think this is a little residue from "Being Seeing", too...
    Widget Whiteberry: ?
    Eliza Madrigal: seeing from the perspective of the larger/non-local?
    Eliza Madrigal: the web of life as opposed to getting caught in small tangles
    Adams Dubrovna: Bye Bolonath
    Eliza Madrigal: Widget, there is a PaB excercize that we did at retreat... something members here from the get go worked with...
    Eliza Madrigal: You Seeing/Being Seeing...
    Widget Whiteberry nods
    Eliza Madrigal: I realized reading what we've been talking about... that that's what I've been doing this morning... contrasting 'you seeing' (local) and Being seeing (non-local)
    Eliza Madrigal: I found Being Seeing to be Great Love
    Eliza Madrigal: make sense? I hope I've not taken everyone on a tangent. Hah
    Eliza Madrigal: If so I apologize
    Widget Whiteberry: hmmm, perhaps I need to actually do it to understand it
    Widget Whiteberry: can this kind of encounter occur virtually?
    Eliza propses a You Seeing, Being Seeing exercise
    Eliza Madrigal: We can do this now... for some it takes a little while, but for others one minute is quite powerful
    Eliza Madrigal: I have a bell I could rezz.. Adams, do you mind?
    Adams Dubrovna: no, go ahead
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: So the idea is that for one minute, we see as we see....
    Widget Whiteberry: meaning?
    Eliza Madrigal: no need to close eyes, but just look around and notice how we notice
    Eliza Madrigal: (Pema explains this so much better-giggles)
    Widget Whiteberry grins
    Eliza Madrigal: Then, after a minute, the idea would be to switch to a "Being Seeing" perspective...
    Eliza Madrigal: What do we see, when we see as Being sees?
    Eliza Madrigal: or, let go of 'we'
    Eliza Madrigal: Shall we try?
    Widget Whiteberry: I'm unclear, but willing
    Eliza Madrigal: I will keep time... ringing the bell at 7:52
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes, unclear seems part of it for a while maybe :)
    Eliza Madrigal: (Yikes...wild bell, apologies)
    Eliza Madrigal: That was roughly one minute :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Now let's switch.... Being Seeing
    Widget Whiteberry: 'see' or 'perceive'?
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I'd say perceive and see are same in this context. What do you think? Were you able to experience a difference Widgdet?
    Adams Dubrovna: Since we are running out of time. I will quickly type in my response.
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Thanks
    Adams Dubrovna: I am sitting in a room and took stock of things around me the first minute. The seocnd minute the house disappeared and there was a kind of fast motion backwwards look into how this little spot has changed over time. The house was but a blip in thyat sequence
    Eliza Madrigal: wow
    Eliza Madrigal: Nice observation, Adams
    Widget Whiteberry: that's amazing, Adams
    Widget Whiteberry: I thougth perhaps in the second instance, my relationship to what I perceive is less about me, hmmm, more that I understood my relationship to everything in the frist instance to be more 'me.'
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, yes, surprisingly powerful....
    Widget Whiteberry: my room, my screen, the window of my house
    Eliza Madrigal: even in that short space. MM, Thank you Widget
    Adams Dubrovna: yes, it tends to move the view away from "US" Widget :)
    Widget Whiteberry: in the second instance, it's not about 'me'
    Adams Dubrovna: It is time for the guardian meeting.
    Eliza Madrigal: I felt like I could relax into that web... like a hammock
    Adams Dubrovna: Shall we move before the bell
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, what a comfort....doesn't have to be all about 'me'
    Widget Whiteberry: yes, where is it?
    Eliza Madrigal: hehe
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes!
    Adams Dubrovna: I'll send a tp. Widget
    Eliza Madrigal: Village Hall... toward the back of the village area
    Eliza Madrigal: See you all there
    Adams Dubrovna: The Village Hall
    Eliza Madrigal: Thanks Adams
    Yakuzza Lethecus: ok, cya in the hall
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