2009.11.15 07:00 - Love: Detached, Attached, or All you Need

The Guardian for this meeting was Adams Dubrovna. The comments are by Adams Dubrovna.

Adams Dubrovna: Good morning Eliza :)
Eliza Madrigal: Good Morning Adams! :)
Bolonath Crystal: namaste :)
Eliza Madrigal: Namaste, Bolonath! :)
Adams Dubrovna: Hello Bolonath :)

Love Indicates Reality

Eliza Madrigal: Bolo, I read your recent session and enjoyed it much.
Bolonath Crystal: ty :)
Eliza Madrigal: And the title you chose "love indicates reality" taken from a line ... seems a whole serious of sessions could be made of that :))
Bolonath Crystal: i hoped to provoke something like that ;)
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Adams Dubrovna loves typos like "whole serious of sessions"
Eliza Madrigal: heheh
Adams Dubrovna: I did not read the session yet, could you say more?
Eliza Madrigal: In another session, there was discussion of 'detachment' and the feeling I got was that sometimes we can be so clinical about contemplative things... intellectual
Eliza Madrigal: trying to get the formulas right
Adams Dubrovna: Hello Marian :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Marian :)
Bolonath Crystal: namaste marian
Adams Dubrovna: Welcome Marian. I will give you a notecard about our group
Eliza Madrigal: So this morning I can't help but contrast the two ideas... detachment as in giving nurturing space... as opposed to clinical distance
Marian Emolite: OK
Bolonath Crystal: afk for 2 min
Eliza Madrigal: Sure :)
Eliza Madrigal: Adams, this is Bolo's session : http://playasbeing.wik.is/Chat_Logs/...icates_reality
Adams Dubrovna begins reading...
Adams Dubrovna: Marian, our conversations are recorded and placed on a Wiki. Do you have any problem with that?
Bolonath Crystal: <-- back
Eliza Madrigal: WB Bolo :)
Bolonath Crystal: thx :)
--BELL--
Marian Emolite: nope..reading the notecard right now...
Adams Dubrovna: I am having trouble seeing the connection between the title and the discussion
Adams Dubrovna: what am I missing?
Adams Dubrovna: If you have any questions Marian, please ask :)
Marian Emolite: ty :)
Adams Dubrovna: whoops, missed the stop
Bolonath Crystal: the title refers to the quote:' every world where love is possible is real' or so
Eliza Madrigal: I like the line, and that one also, because it points to something difficult to discuss...
Widget Whiteberry: Hello, sorry to be late
Eliza Madrigal: and the detachment discussion also, in a funny way.
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Widget :)
Bolonath Crystal: hello widget
Adams Dubrovna: Hello Widget :)
Widget Whiteberry: ☆smiles☆
Eliza Madrigal: Love/connection as ab 'indicator' of aliveness/reality

Love and Attachment

Bolonath Crystal: can there be love without attachment, iyo?
Marian Emolite: Hi Widget
Eliza Madrigal: yes I think so...
Widget Whiteberry: Detached love?
Eliza Madrigal: but not unattachment
Widget Whiteberry: Is 'attachment' an agreed upon construct?
Eliza Madrigal: Detached as in attached in a larger context
Eliza Madrigal: Widget, good question
Eliza Madrigal: I was noting this morning that sometimes we talk about detachment in the context of contemplation/watching thoughts, etc... and sometimes it can be taken it for distance in a cold way
Adams Dubrovna: Seems to me attachment comes from the brain and love from someplace else
Eliza Madrigal: Hmmm
Eliza Madrigal: larger context
Widget Whiteberry: hmmm, the architecture of the brain drives pattern recognition, connection, attachment
Eliza Madrigal: seeking to understand, you mean
Eliza Madrigal: ?

Connection and Kinship

Widget Whiteberry: and connected to our entire neural networks
Eliza Madrigal nods
Widget Whiteberry: Seems to me that 'love' describes some level of 'attachment'
Widget Whiteberry: in a very particular sense, in that we feel connected
Widget Whiteberry: interested in the well being of the other

Widget Whiteberry: kinship is a term I've been using
Eliza Madrigal: We've had discussions of layers/kinds of love... love in various contexts...
Widget Whiteberry nods
Eliza Madrigal: Oh! Kinship!

Giving and Taking Love

Bolonath Crystal: there are two aspects of love. one wants to give, the oter wants to take. and maybe that has to be like that, as it is not possible to give unless there is something willing to take
Widget Whiteberry: can't there be a balance point between those aspects?
Eliza Madrigal: Well and there is this idea of the giving being in the taking, too
Bolonath Crystal: i think so, widget
Eliza Madrigal: the departure in the arrival
Adams Dubrovna: I don't think that love needs to be "taken"
Eliza Madrigal listens
Bolonath Crystal: well, maybe better 'accepted'
Bolonath Crystal: namaste yak
Adams Dubrovna: There is a kind of completeness when accepted
Adams Dubrovna: Hello Yakuzza :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
Eliza Madrigal: Hi yakuzza :)
Adams Dubrovna: but love can be given freely
Adams Dubrovna: there for the accepting
Adams Dubrovna: or not accepting
Eliza Madrigal: And that would be a kind of detachment?
Adams Dubrovna: I really feel love is separate from attachment/detachment
Adams Dubrovna: Maybe that is my understanding
--BELL--
Widget Whiteberry: Adams, how do you define attachment/detachment? what do you mean by those words?
Adams Dubrovna: now connection is something else :)
Eliza Madrigal: hm.. yes I hear you. There is something I was trying to work out this morning, love as the indicator of reality...as it is... and our 'approaches' to seeing reality, contemplative and otherwise

Oh my! Missed two 90 second stops this session

Adams Dubrovna not doing a good job watching the clock this morning
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Adams Dubrovna: To me attachments are things that get in the way
Widget Whiteberry nods
Adams Dubrovna: maybe we are thinking of attachment/detachment differently
Adams Dubrovna: Love is just there
Bolonath Crystal: to me attchment is any form of clinging to something... or the opposite
Adams Dubrovna: all we have to do is let love flow
Widget Whiteberry: 'attachment theory' in a psychological sense is different
Adams Dubrovna: not get in the way
Widget Whiteberry: Attachment theory is a psychological, evolutionary and ethological theory concerning relationships between humans. The most important tenet of attachment theory is that a young child needs to develop a relationship with at least one primary caregiver for social and emotional development to occur normally. The theory was formulated by psychiatrist and psychoanalyst John Bowlby.[1]
Widget Whiteberry: Different glossaries!
Eliza Madrigal: So the child forms a basis for attachment which then carries into the next... a growing web
Eliza Madrigal: which should be a kind of security
Widget Whiteberry: Attachment is what allows the child to develope, to thrive
Eliza Madrigal nods
Widget Whiteberry: it's what allows you and I to relate to each other
Widget Whiteberry: where we each understand the other to be a being
Bolonath Crystal: that seems absolutely neccessary for any social being
Widget Whiteberry nods
Eliza Madrigal nods
Eliza Madrigal: and to be social/sharing/open, one has to have a kind of trust, perhaps, in that larger web...
Eliza Madrigal: at any given point, a particular attachment can become unreliable...
Eliza Madrigal: so...hm...contextual
Eliza Madrigal: And then there is a kind of freedom in that I think
Eliza Madrigal: (still thinking aloud...thanks for walking through this with me -hah)
Widget Whiteberry: a favorite rl group of mine, Bioneers
Widget Whiteberry: used to have a tag line that said something like

All Connected, All Relatives

Widget Whiteberry: we are all aware, we are all connected, we are all relatives
Widget Whiteberry: where 'we' was more than humanity
Eliza Madrigal smiles broadly...very nice
Adams Dubrovna: yes, we are all connected, all realtives :)
Adams Dubrovna: relatives :)
Bolonath Crystal: so altruism is a kind of 'egoism on a higher level'
Adams Dubrovna: for me love seems to grow from recognizing that connection
Eliza Madrigal nods... yes no need to get hung up on 'no' rules like "don't be attached!" "be mindful!", if one sets their heart on the larger web
Widget Whiteberry: if egoism = mindfullness
Eliza Madrigal: Hmmm, nods nods
Bolonath Crystal: sorry, i have to leave early today
Widget Whiteberry: bye!
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Bolo :) Nice to see you
Bolonath Crystal: om shanti :)
Eliza Madrigal: Om Shanti
Eliza Madrigal: I think this is a little residue from "Being Seeing", too...
Widget Whiteberry: ?
Eliza Madrigal: seeing from the perspective of the larger/non-local?
Eliza Madrigal: the web of life as opposed to getting caught in small tangles
Adams Dubrovna: Bye Bolonath
Eliza Madrigal: Widget, there is a PaB excercize that we did at retreat... something members here from the get go worked with...
Eliza Madrigal: You Seeing/Being Seeing...
Widget Whiteberry nods
--BELL--
Eliza Madrigal: I realized reading what we've been talking about... that that's what I've been doing this morning... contrasting 'you seeing' (local) and Being seeing (non-local)
Eliza Madrigal: I found Being Seeing to be Great Love
Eliza Madrigal: make sense? I hope I've not taken everyone on a tangent. Hah
Eliza Madrigal: If so I apologize
Widget Whiteberry: hmmm, perhaps I need to actually do it to understand it
Widget Whiteberry: can this kind of encounter occur virtually?

Eliza propses a You Seeing, Being Seeing exercise

Eliza Madrigal: We can do this now... for some it takes a little while, but for others one minute is quite powerful
Eliza Madrigal: I have a bell I could rezz.. Adams, do you mind?
Adams Dubrovna: no, go ahead
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: So the idea is that for one minute, we see as we see....
Widget Whiteberry: meaning?
Eliza Madrigal: no need to close eyes, but just look around and notice how we notice
Eliza Madrigal: (Pema explains this so much better-giggles)
Widget Whiteberry grins
Eliza Madrigal: Then, after a minute, the idea would be to switch to a "Being Seeing" perspective...
Eliza Madrigal: What do we see, when we see as Being sees?
Eliza Madrigal: or, let go of 'we'
Eliza Madrigal: Shall we try?
Widget Whiteberry: I'm unclear, but willing
Eliza Madrigal: I will keep time... ringing the bell at 7:52
Eliza Madrigal: Yes, unclear seems part of it for a while maybe :)
Eliza Madrigal: (Yikes...wild bell, apologies)
Eliza Madrigal: That was roughly one minute :)
Eliza Madrigal: Now let's switch.... Being Seeing
Widget Whiteberry: 'see' or 'perceive'?
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: I'd say perceive and see are same in this context. What do you think? Were you able to experience a difference Widgdet?
Adams Dubrovna: Since we are running out of time. I will quickly type in my response.
Eliza Madrigal: :) Thanks
Adams Dubrovna: I am sitting in a room and took stock of things around me the first minute. The seocnd minute the house disappeared and there was a kind of fast motion backwwards look into how this little spot has changed over time. The house was but a blip in thyat sequence
Eliza Madrigal: wow
Eliza Madrigal: Nice observation, Adams
Widget Whiteberry: that's amazing, Adams
Widget Whiteberry: I thougth perhaps in the second instance, my relationship to what I perceive is less about me, hmmm, more that I understood my relationship to everything in the frist instance to be more 'me.'
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, yes, surprisingly powerful....
Widget Whiteberry: my room, my screen, the window of my house
Eliza Madrigal: even in that short space. MM, Thank you Widget
Adams Dubrovna: yes, it tends to move the view away from "US" Widget :)
Widget Whiteberry: in the second instance, it's not about 'me'
Adams Dubrovna: It is time for the guardian meeting.
Eliza Madrigal: I felt like I could relax into that web... like a hammock
Adams Dubrovna: Shall we move before the bell
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, what a comfort....doesn't have to be all about 'me'
Widget Whiteberry: yes, where is it?
Eliza Madrigal: hehe
Eliza Madrigal: Yes!
Adams Dubrovna: I'll send a tp. Widget
Eliza Madrigal: Village Hall... toward the back of the village area
Eliza Madrigal: See you all there
Adams Dubrovna: The Village Hall
Eliza Madrigal: Thanks Adams
--BELL--
Yakuzza Lethecus: ok, cya in the hall