2009.11.17 13:00 - A Dream of a Session

    The Guardian for this meeting was Mickorod Renard. The comments are by Mickorod Renard.

    Mickorod Renard: Hi Fox
        Fox Monacular: Hi Mick
        Fox Monacular: How are you today?
        Mickorod Renard: I am fine thanks,,busy as usual
        Mickorod Renard: how are you?
        Fox Monacular: good, thank, very busy as well...
        Mickorod Renard: grin
        Fox Monacular: Hello Calvino
        Mickorod Renard: hi Calvino#
        Calvino Rabeni: Hello fox, mick, what is up?
        Mickorod Renard: what time rl is it for everyone?
        Fox Monacular: 4pm
        Calvino Rabeni: 1pm
        Mickorod Renard: 21:00 here
        Fox Monacular: hehe
        Fox Monacular: lots of people in a coffee shop here
        Mickorod Renard: wow,,good mix already
        Mickorod Renard: hiya Qt
        Fox Monacular: Hi Qt
        Qt Core: hi all
        Mickorod Renard: Qt must be 22:00
        Qt Core: 22:02, why ?
        Fox Monacular: Hi Wester
        Mickorod Renard: I was just getting a feel for everyones rl time
        Wester Kiranov: hi all
        Mickorod Renard: Hiyaaaa,wester
        Fox Monacular: I think we've never met, Wester
        Fox Monacular: nice to finally meet you!
        Qt Core: hi wester
        Wester Kiranov: I don't know if you have. Nice to meet you Fox
        Wester Kiranov: (met me)
        Mickorod Renard: yea,,Wester isnt so regular here these days..I am afraid I have been more absent recently too
        Fox Monacular: and it's also the time of day thing...
        Mickorod Renard: I was thinking about dreams the other day
        Wester Kiranov: a specific one or in general?
        Mickorod Renard: and thinking about your expertise Fox
        Mickorod Renard: maybe you can help too wester
        Fox Monacular: tell us more?
        Mickorod Renard: I know its said that dreaming is a sort of repair workings for the mind
        Mickorod Renard: at least sleep is
        Fox Monacular: :)
        Mickorod Renard: and those who sleep little may suffer
        Fox Monacular: well, sleep has a number of important functions for the whole body as well for the mind
        Mickorod Renard: oops
        Mickorod Renard: well, I dont sleep much
        Fox Monacular: for instance, it has been demonstrated now that memory consolidation depends on good sleep
        Fox Monacular: and good sleep architecture - ie sleep stages at right times
        Mickorod Renard: yes
        Wester Kiranov: But there are big difference in how much sleep people need
        Fox Monacular: yes, definitely
        Mickorod Renard: without getting into too personal details, i get up as soon as I am aware that I am nearly awake#
        Fox Monacular: essentially, a person should find his/her optimal schedule and stick to it
        Fox Monacular: but do you feel rester, Mick?
        Mickorod Renard: I struggle with dificult Lucid stage in the mornings
        Fox Monacular: *rested
        Fox Monacular: nods
        Qt Core: that is if people let you sleep for said optimum time ;-)
        Calvino Rabeni: mickm why get up?
        Mickorod Renard: things haunt my lucid period
        Fox Monacular: yes, morning REM is usully longest and lucid dreams are more likely to happen
        Mickorod Renard: and I get up rather than alow things to disturb my thoughts
        Mickorod Renard: disturb
        Wester Kiranov: hi sophia
        Fox Monacular: are you simply aware that you're dreamng or you're in some degree of control over the dream scenario?
        Mickorod Renard: hi Sophia s
        Qt Core: just had a morning dream abou having a double crash witn my car, i was nervous all the day
        Fox Monacular: hi Sophia
        Calvino Rabeni: feels threatening?
        SophiaSharon Larnia: hi everyone :)
        Qt Core: hi sophia
        Mickorod Renard: I may be able to control it,,if I hung in there,,but I prefer not to allow certain things into my head
        Fox Monacular: actually cultivating lucidity helps deal (and change) traumatic nightmares
        Fox Monacular: right, I hear you, Mick
        Fox Monacular: Oh, did the day go well, Qt?
        Calvino Rabeni: mick, your "day head" I guess
        Mickorod Renard: I am concerned that my refusal to stay in bed may be slowing down my ability to deal with it#
        Qt Core: while it was scary i was a little weided out about seing in dreams a rl object, i usually don't see rl object in my dreams or at least i don't feel as they are really and mine
        Fox Monacular: I see what you mean... it's hard to say... dreams have an uncanny quality to them... they can tell you a lot... sometimes you don't feel like facing these things
        Mickorod Renard: yes
        Qt Core: yes, but i was strangely ;-) careful while driving
        Fox Monacular: you know, I personally made a choice of stopping my dream diary... too much time and mental effort went there
        SophiaSharon Larnia: have you been driving more lately Qt?
        Wester Kiranov: hi wol
        Qt Core: no
        Mickorod Renard: hiya wOL
        SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Wol
        Fox Monacular: Hi Wol
        Wol Euler: hello everyone
        Wester Kiranov: just in time for the silent period
        Qt Core: hi Wol
        Fox Monacular: also dreams of driving are among the most typical dreams
        Fox Monacular: even I have them, and I don't even have a driver's license!
        Wol Euler: wow :)
        Qt Core: i think this is the 2nd time in my life, the other time some 25 years ago
        Mickorod Renard: i WOuld think the 5 or six hours I sleep now are a step better than the 4 hours I used to sleep before
        Fox Monacular: wow, Mick, this is not a lot
        Wester Kiranov: have you always slept little?
        Mickorod Renard: not always,,but never was a laying in person
        Fox Monacular: I know one wonderful person - very productive, creative, sharp - he sleeps no more than 3 hours
        Fox Monacular: but a few times a day
        Fox Monacular: if I do that - I feel like my brain is in slow motion!
        Mickorod Renard: I am concerned that sleep lessnes is linked to some brain degenerative disorders
        Mickorod Renard: in later life
        Fox Monacular: hhmmmm, well, usually as people age, they sleep less... generally
        Wol Euler: well, it can be, but it's also generally true that --- yes, as Fox said
        Calvino Rabeni: any idea why ppl sleep less?
        Wol Euler: one theory is that the body cuts down on the amount of maintenance it does.
        Fox Monacular: no, I don't really know
        Calvino Rabeni: reports from friends - they have physical discomforts
        Fox Monacular: it seems a degenerative process... as with other finctions... newborns sleep all day almost... and then we sleep less and less
        Wol Euler: and teenagers often sleep enormous amounts when they start their growth spurt
        Mickorod Renard: thats odd in a way,,as babies are like a sponge and like the stimulus
        Calvino Rabeni: might this parallel a decrease in learning ability?
        Fox Monacular: I think so, Calvino
        Calvino Rabeni: or in learning activity?
        Fox Monacular: sleep is important for brain maturation, memory consolidation and such
        Mickorod Renard: u mean I am at the bottom of my ability now,,he he
        Fox Monacular: I didn't mean you personally, Mick :)
        Mickorod Renard: grin
        Mickorod Renard: I used to sit up and read,,or do puzzles
        Fox Monacular: but, yes, it seems like baibieshave more to consolidate
        Fox Monacular: at night?
        Mickorod Renard: yes
        Fox Monacular: and then go back to bed?
        Mickorod Renard: sometimes I would go to bed,,wait for my partner to fall asleep,,then get up
        Calvino Rabeni: a recent study has hypothesis that night brain activity is a preparation and warm-up function for future activity
        Fox Monacular: I think that night activity is just as important as day activity
        Calvino Rabeni: but personally I don't think that's well-distinguished from consolidation
        Wol Euler: were you unable to sleep, Mick, or did you not wish to?
        Qt Core: most like defrag and scandisk ;-)
        Fox Monacular: we need both to be healthy
        Mickorod Renard: bit of both
        Mickorod Renard: I did have an issue at one stage,,and I would choose to sleep when I knew |I was too tired to lie in bed thinking
        Fox Monacular: we tend to think that nighttime brain activity is somehow subordinate to daytime, but I disagree with it
        Fox Monacular: they are interpermeable
        Fox Monacular: you know, Mick, my partner does the same
        Wol Euler: that sounds almost like you were afraid to go to sleep
        Fox Monacular: and he thinks I don't notice when he gets up
        Wol Euler: :)
        Mickorod Renard: I wasnt afraid to sleep,,but afraid to not be fully asleep
        Wol Euler: how do you mean?
        Fox Monacular: did you suffer from insomnia?
        Mickorod Renard: there is always the bit before u fall asleep,,and the bit in the morning when your mind is active in sleep
        Wol Euler: and you feared those times?
        Wol Euler: (feel free to stop me if this gets too personal)
        Fox Monacular: so you were trying to avoid these two periods?
        Mickorod Renard: well,,be anoyed with those times
        Mickorod Renard: as there seemed to be a lack of control of direction of thought during those periods
        Mickorod Renard: I am not sure whether some is down to a change in personality
        Fox Monacular: basically as you fall asleep and then the morning dream period are the most active dream processes (or at least most available to our waking consciousness)
        Mickorod Renard: yes,,those dreams that do not surface are not an issue
        Fox Monacular: have you tried to sort of detach yourself from this mental activity? like in PaB?
        Mickorod Renard: no,,I am too conditioned now
        Fox Monacular: would you qualify these as nightmares?
        Mickorod Renard: I think I see something more animal in myself than I really like in dreams
        Mickorod Renard: no nightmares
        Fox Monacular: perhaps you could try writing them down, and then looking back at them when you are awake... so perhaps decondition yourself a little bit
        Mickorod Renard: well,,I avoid them now,,so dificult to write them down
        Wester Kiranov: hi ara
        Wol Euler: hello ara
        Mickorod Renard: Hi Ara
        Fox Monacular: Hi Ara
        SophiaSharon Larnia: HI Ara
        arabella Ella: Hiya everyone
        Qt Core: hi ara
        SophiaSharon Larnia slips away...bye all :)
        Fox Monacular: In my own experience, avoided dream reality will eventually manifest itself in a more dramatic way... so perhaps getting acquainted with it gently could be a good idea
        Mickorod Renard: well, that was why I asked,,I thought there may be a draw back with prolonged dream deprivation
        Fox Monacular: yes, very plausible
        Mickorod Renard: bye sophia
        Fox Monacular: in fact, REM deprivation usually ends with a REM rebound, even after one night
        Mickorod Renard: how do you mean Fox?
        Fox Monacular: for instance, many people self-medicate with marijuana, which suppresses REM sleep, so they're happy, they din't have disturbing dreams anymore
        Mickorod Renard: ok
        Fox Monacular: but as soon as they're off it - they have longer and more intense dreams than before
        Fox Monacular: so this method can clearly backfire
        Mickorod Renard: yes, I can imagine
        Mickorod Renard: I wonder why?
        Wester Kiranov: It looks like your dreams are trying to tell you something
        Mickorod Renard: I do remember a long time ago that those who used drugs thought they opened new doors of perception
        Mickorod Renard: but maybe they were just recieving rem rebound
        Fox Monacular: welll, that could be true... it's always a question of balance:)
        Fox Monacular: not all drugs interfere with REM as directly... but pot does for sure
        Fox Monacular: salvia, for instance, produces an opposite effect - dreamlike state in waking
        arabella Ella: but Fox scuse my ignorance but surely not all REM dreams are bad dreams are they?
        Mickorod Renard: or maybe those who smoked pot became more chilled out,,and slept deeper?
        Fox Monacular: yes, Mick, definitely, but REM sleep, and dreaming too, are so essential, that if you disturb the balance, you're in trouble later
        Mickorod Renard: yikes
        Fox Monacular: No, Ara, REM dreams are usually teh most intense and detailed, so usually bad dreams and all nightmares come during REM
        Fox Monacular: so REM is not bad
        Fox Monacular: it's good:)
        arabella Ella: oh ok i thought i had once learnt that REM dreams are most vivid dreams ... some good some bad
        Fox Monacular: yes, exactly
        Mickorod Renard: I know I do dream still,,but I just dont like when I am semi concious of certain dreams,,likely that manifest themselves in the morning
        Mickorod Renard: oops
        Mickorod Renard: dreams and sleep are a facinating subject
        Mickorod Renard: subjects
        Calvino Rabeni: Yes
        Wester Kiranov: I think I have to go now. Bye, it was good talking with you all
        Mickorod Renard: scuse spelling
        Calvino Rabeni: bye!
        Mickorod Renard: bye Wester
        arabella Ella: bye Wester great to see you again!
        Qt Core: bye Wester
        Wol Euler: goodnight wester, sweet dreas
        Wol Euler: *dreams
        Mickorod Renard: he he
        Calvino Rabeni: My partner had sleep disturbances, which I "cured" her of.
        arabella Ella: Fox do you think we could learn the skill of auto suggesting our own dreams ... is it possible?
        Mickorod Renard: so do you do hypnosis where u are Fox?
        Mickorod Renard: wow,,well done Calvino
        Calvino Rabeni: Right, I suppose"suggestion" was how it worked
        Fox Monacular: sorry about that]
        Mickorod Renard: its funny, I am great at sorting out others,,but cant sort myself out
        arabella Ella: did you try to put her in a good mood then Calvino or just put positive thoughts in her mind?
        Mickorod Renard: Hi eliza
        Wol Euler: hello eliza
        Mickorod Renard: nice gown
        Fox Monacular: yes, ara, this is certainly possible:)
        Calvino Rabeni: she would sit up and stare, but be unresponsive
        Eliza Madrigal: Hi everyone :)
        Mickorod Renard: asleep?
        Eliza Madrigal: Apologies, Qt
        Fox Monacular: no, we don't do hypnosis, but I know some people who do
        arabella Ella: hi Eliza
        Qt Core: np eliza
        Calvino Rabeni: elize, like your outfit!yes asleep, but eyes open
        Eliza Madrigal: Nice to see you Ara, and everyone. Thanks Calvino :)
        Mickorod Renard: strange
        Eliza Madrigal: I have to run... apologies :)
        Fox Monacular: my messages don't seem to get through
        Fox Monacular: !
        Mickorod Renard: bye Eliza
        Fox Monacular: I wrote before that yes, it is possible to incubate a dream, in response to ara's comment
        Calvino Rabeni: she would hallucinate a threatening figure in the room
        Mickorod Renard: ohh,,sounds a bit like the sleep paralysis
        Fox Monacular: and also I wrote that we don't do hypnosis:)
        Fox Monacular: yes, sounds like it
        Mickorod Renard: yes,,I got that Fox..thanks
        arabella Ella: yes ty Fox got you there :)
        Fox Monacular: :)
        Mickorod Renard: ;)
        Fox Monacular: I wrote 2 or 3 messages, adn tehy just didn't get through
        Fox Monacular: Calvino, would that happen more in the morning or at sleep onset?
        Calvino Rabeni: as I recall about 3:30 am
        Fox Monacular: and how did you cure her?
        Calvino Rabeni: so middle
        Calvino Rabeni: ok, she would relate as if it were fear experience - because it was
        Calvino Rabeni: and I asked her to tell
        Calvino Rabeni: but I acted fascinated, a but deetached, relaxed
        Calvino Rabeni: to give hr that attitude
        Calvino Rabeni: there was a monster with no face
        Calvino Rabeni: just a blank
        Fox Monacular: spooky
        Calvino Rabeni: I said, oh that's so interesting
        Calvino Rabeni: I winder what is on the face?
        Calvino Rabeni: How far away is it?
        Fox Monacular: this is a great approach!
        Calvino Rabeni: So I suggested, thisly, looking at the blank face in the dream
        Calvino Rabeni: ofer time, it got closer
        Calvino Rabeni: it came out of the shadow (in her hallucination)
        Mickorod Renard: wow
        Calvino Rabeni: She finally saw the fce
        Calvino Rabeni: face
        Calvino Rabeni: interestingly,she said - "It was your face!"
        Wol Euler: O.O
        Calvino Rabeni: I thoght that weird
        Fox Monacular: interesting
        Calvino Rabeni: but it worked out well, because she is not afraid of me
        Mickorod Renard: well,,maybe it was your face that took away the fear
        Calvino Rabeni: so the dream figure was no loger scary
        Mickorod Renard: yes
        Mickorod Renard: lovely
        Calvino Rabeni: after that this didnt happen anymore
        Wol Euler: how wonderful
        arabella Ella: that sounds lovely Calvino thanks for sharing it
        Fox Monacular: it is as if you have successfully desensitized her, and she transferred some of you to it!
        Calvino Rabeni: yw
        Calvino Rabeni: yes, i kind of took it
        Calvino Rabeni: but there were no ill effects on our relationship
        arabella Ella: great
        Fox Monacular: this is great, Calvino, this approach also works well with recurrent nightmares... do re-tell, rethink, detach and change its essence
        Calvino Rabeni: she became somewhat lucid, and also in relationship with me
        Calvino Rabeni: in the dream
        Fox Monacular: wonderful
        Calvino Rabeni: Fox, I am not a therapist but this worked similar to what some of them do
        Fox Monacular: did you learn this from someone, or did you intuitively knew how to approach it?
        Calvino Rabeni: Fox, neither. I'd say I synthesiaed it based on general education.
        Fox Monacular: awesome
        Mickorod Renard: I remember quite a few dreams,,not badm,,but slightly disturbing
        Mickorod Renard: and there is nothing worse than lying in bed with that alobe feeling,,cos ur partner is so fast asleep
        Mickorod Renard: alone*
        Fox Monacular: yes, it can be difficult
        Mickorod Renard: its niceyou were/are so sensitive Calvino
        Fox Monacular: perhaps you could try something like that too, Mick... althought I understand you might me reluctant to look at your dreams
        Calvino Rabeni: M, my center of gravity is intellectual though
        Mickorod Renard: I think I have looked at them,,and decided I dont like them...they are more extended thoughts I think
        Fox Monacular: I think in the long run it might be better for you to gently get to know your dreamlife...
        Fox Monacular: and you'll probably discover it's not at all that bad!
        Mickorod Renard: I was facinated with my dreams once,,loved the experience,,but that seems lost at the moment
        arabella Ella: so Fox how do you suggest Mick could get started if he decided to be motivated to do so?
        Fox Monacular: I don't think it's too late to regain that
        Fox Monacular: I'm not a therapist, right, but I would try to write them down first
        Fox Monacular: kind of detached, as reports
        Mickorod Renard: I think we remember our dreams when we lay in a few mins in the mornings
        Calvino Rabeni: yes, that helps
        Mickorod Renard: I would have to allow that first
        Fox Monacular: and then slowly try to decode them, perhaps first at the formal level, like ok, a bear, I saw a bear on TV yesterday... ok next
        Calvino Rabeni: you might try, if you happen to have a dream you actually loke and is pleasant, then try it then, just to get friendly with the process
        Calvino Rabeni: *like
        Fox Monacular: yes, exactly, so just writing them down, as diary reports, as a homework, non-attached, if possible, non-emotional
        Mickorod Renard: I dont think the dreams are so bad..just the ones u wake up with
        Fox Monacular: I personally even don't think that bad dreams are bad... at least for me
        Mickorod Renard: I think some issues revolve around loops of unsolvable puzzles
        Fox Monacular: in my own dreamlife, when I have recurrent bad themes, it usually means I have to resolve something in RL
        arabella Ella nods
        Fox Monacular: and often the message is much less cryptic than it seems
        Fox Monacular: and less sinister too:)
        Wol Euler nods
        Mickorod Renard: well,,maybe,,but they keep revolving
        arabella Ella: yes as i feel we may at times be a bit too hard on our selves when we interpret our own dreams but we can also work on changing our perceptions concerning interpretation
        Calvino Rabeni: I believe it helps to recognize, some of one's dreams are not personal
        Fox Monacular: yes
        Fox Monacular: you know, one effective method of dream interpretation involves you telling someone else (someone you trust obviously) your dream and have them interpret it is if it were their own dream
        Fox Monacular: and ask you questions
        Calvino Rabeni: nice
        Fox Monacular: so without judgement
        Qt Core: time to go, bye all
        Mickorod Renard: thats a good point
        Calvino Rabeni: bye Q
        Mickorod Renard: bye Qt
        Fox Monacular: bye Qt
        arabella Ella: bye Qt
        Wol Euler: bye qt
        Fox Monacular: sometimes just through their questions, you can get to details that explain it all for you
        Fox Monacular: and you somehow miss or unconsciously don't really see them
        Fox Monacular: oups, sorry
        arabella Ella: but Fox
        arabella Ella: what if a recurring dream is about something obvious and realistic
        Fox Monacular: well, sometimes when you dream of a banana it's just a banana:)
        arabella Ella: like ... lemmi think of an example ... going up on stage to deliver a presentation and being totally unprepared
        Wol Euler: heheheheheh
        Mickorod Renard: my thoughts are about rl issues,,and that I cannot control things that have passed,,I know its a fruitless issue,,but it still to my mind looks like an unsolved puzzle
        Fox Monacular: yes that's a classic one
        arabella Ella: its just an example but what if it is realistic like that and recurrs and loops?
        Fox Monacular: it is always personal... you know I have a terrible fear of public speaking, so for me it would mean something
        Fox Monacular: or someone else might have a delusion of grandeur
        arabella Ella: could a dream turn into an obsession perhaps?
        Fox Monacular: so it would be a diferent thing
        arabella Ella: yes
        Fox Monacular: yes, I think so
        Calvino Rabeni: I think, in a strict sense, not really
        Fox Monacular: I'm sure there are some more archetypal things, but usually you have to put it into a personal context
        arabella Ella: like ok let me think of another example ... having been bitten by a dog in RL and having recurrent dreams of that experience or of a car accident that happened for eg
        arabella Ella: what i mean is recurring dreams of events and emotions that happened in RL
        Fox Monacular: hmmm, in post-traumatic stress disorder, recurrent nightmares are often reflecting the trauma
        Fox Monacular: and it's sort of stuck, it doesn't change
        Fox Monacular: so it requires an interention (in RL, not in DL)
        Mickorod Renard: I often thought the dream state was free from concious fiddling,,and therefore pure in a way..and as such gave a more true symbolic undrestanding of the situation without ego etc
        Mickorod Renard: concious*
        Calvino Rabeni: not entirely
        Fox Monacular: there is definitely a continuity between waking and dreams
        Fox Monacular: and both affect each other
        Calvino Rabeni: yes, there's still a "youness" in the way things are done
        Calvino Rabeni: carrying habits, limitations, abilities
        Fox Monacular: yes
        Calvino Rabeni: A dream is a little like You On Vacation
        Mickorod Renard: yes
        Wol Euler: :)
        Fox Monacular: there are definitely mundane things too in dreams
        Fox Monacular: and problem solving
        Fox Monacular: in fact, many people, even some dream rsearchers, say that dreams are bizarre and emotional
        Mickorod Renard: sometimes a need to let go aswell
        Fox Monacular: but we don't find it in our work
        Fox Monacular: most dreams are logical, simple, it's just that the context is different
        Mickorod Renard: I guess we supress emotional in rl
        Calvino Rabeni: right
        Fox Monacular: there are usually not more emotions in dreams than in rl
        arabella Ella: i find the logic of dreams is often different from the logic in RL
        Fox Monacular: yes
        Fox Monacular: yes, right, but within the dream context, things are usually logical
        Calvino Rabeni: the physics is different
        arabella Ella: yes
        Fox Monacular: like I fly on this machine, because I know it will work
        Fox Monacular: or I can turn my enemies into frogs
        arabella Ella: yessss
        arabella Ella: he he
        arabella Ella: i dont even need a machine to fly in my dreams :)
        Fox Monacular: but if I think so in rl, i'm clearly deluded, but in dreams I'm not, because it might work
        Fox Monacular: :)
        Fox Monacular: however, I think that we remember emotional and negative, and bizarre dreams better
        Fox Monacular: just like events in rl
        Mickorod Renard: well,,trying out many scenarios is great for problem solving,,unless the problem was a past issue
        Fox Monacular: so the perspective is skewed
        Calvino Rabeni: some dream researchers say, you can't walk twice into the same dream room, that it is not as stable as the dreamer thinks.
        Mickorod Renard: I guess this is an issue with dream state not being fixed in time
        Calvino Rabeni: oh, that wasnt as apropos as I expected
        Fox Monacular: yes, I agree with that!
        Calvino Rabeni: in lucid dreams one can investigate that issue
        Fox Monacular: exactly, lucid dreamers have tried for ages
        Fox Monacular: to walk in the same room:)
        Calvino Rabeni: but I think the methodology would be suspect to many
        Fox Monacular: have you ever tried reading, or dialing a number in your dream?
        Calvino Rabeni: Yes
        Fox Monacular: it is so difficult!
        Calvino Rabeni: there seem to be severe short term memory problems
        Fox Monacular: just tonight I was trying to search for a youtube video in my dream
        Calvino Rabeni: perhaps like people who have brain injuries
        Fox Monacular: it never worked
        Mickorod Renard: he he
        Fox Monacular: you know, prefrontal deactivation during REM is probably to blame for short term memory problems
        Fox Monacular: and for usual lack of awareness of rl
        Calvino Rabeni: does that imply impaired short term memory in dream state?
        Fox Monacular: yes, pretty much
        Calvino Rabeni: it accords with the experience then
        Fox Monacular: and perhaps also is responsible for the fact that it is so difficult to remember dreams
        Calvino Rabeni: on second idea there, I think maybe not that
        Fox Monacular: but perhaps there memory 'deficits' may actually enable us to be freer in the dream
        Wol Euler: hmmmm. I wa about to say that i remember mine well, but perhaps I remember moods and single images.
        Fox Monacular: and to expand our context
        Calvino Rabeni: yeah, I felt "deficit" not a fair word to use
        Calvino Rabeni: you might know, there's always been a dispute about dream interpretation
        Mickorod Renard: sorry phone
        Calvino Rabeni: which is about whether the interpretation process actually adds to the meaning of the dream
        Calvino Rabeni: in a sense, is part of the dream process
        arabella Ella: yes
        Calvino Rabeni: instead of being considered an objective reflection
        arabella Ella: and whether we elaborate when we put our dream memories into words too
        Calvino Rabeni: exactly
        Fox Monacular: yes, I know what you mean
        Fox Monacular: I guess it really depends on what you get out of it
        arabella Ella: as Wol said most dreams are composed of feelings and images some vivid some blurred
        arabella Ella: and sensations
        Fox Monacular: because we'll never really know...
        Fox Monacular: all we know about our dreams, is our waking memory of them...
        arabella Ella: would it not be great if a 'dream reader recorder' were to be invented?
        Calvino Rabeni: Unless, you think it's possible to make a connection with that part of the mind that created the dream
        arabella Ella: like a PET or CAT scan that records dreams like movies
        Fox Monacular: hehe, maybe some dreams are meant to be quickly forgotten
        Fox Monacular: I think it is something that can be cultivated, Calvino
        arabella Ella: yea but for therapy or those who wish to 'record' their dreams on DVDs ... just imagine the implications
        Calvino Rabeni: I mean, to consider the dream in real time as a creation, not like a recorded past event
        Fox Monacular: I don't know, ara, kind of spooky:)
        arabella Ella: i'm just imagining the positive aspects but like anything else there would be good and bad points i guess
        Fox Monacular: in psychoanalysis they talk about a 'censor' that doesn't let you remember what you're not supposed to
        Calvino Rabeni: The philosophy of "active dreaming" is that you can make them up anew while awake, so it doesn't matter as much to remembe3r them accurately
        Fox Monacular: yes, right
        Calvino Rabeni: I don't believe in the censor metaphor
        Mickorod Renard: strangely i do
        Fox Monacular: I kind of do too
        Calvino Rabeni: interesting
        arabella Ella: i do too
        Mickorod Renard: although only from my own thoughts on it
        arabella Ella: i think we also censor a lot that happens in our RL somehow ... memories i mean
        Fox Monacular: well, it kind of makes sense if you consides that in dreaming one of the functions might be to evacualte some negative emotions
        Fox Monacular: yes, I agree, Ara
        Calvino Rabeni: I am no expert, but my impression is that there exists research showing the that human mental process is extremely state dependent
        Calvino Rabeni: and that the states are disconnected
        Fox Monacular: I don't really agree with it
        Calvino Rabeni: or semi-dissociated, as the label might be
        Fox Monacular: in fact our research shows that people think in dreams much like in rl
        Fox Monacular: personally I don't really believe in total separation beteen dreaming and waking
        Calvino Rabeni: hypnotists can easily induce amnesia between different events
        Wol Euler nods
        Fox Monacular: some dreaming is more lucid, and some waking is dreamlike
        Calvino Rabeni: right, no total separation
        Calvino Rabeni: that's what "semi-dissociated" means
        Fox Monacular: ok, it is great to talk to you all! sorry I have to go noe:)
        Mickorod Renard: maybe our dream state is just another fractal universe,,extending inwards...just a silly thought
        Fox Monacular: RL visit
        Wol Euler: bye fox, take care. thanks a lot!
        Fox Monacular: maybe, Mick!
        Mickorod Renard: yea,,I have to go too,,thanks alot
        arabella Ella: bye Fox and thanks for your lovely advice and suggestions :)
        Calvino Rabeni: Mick, it's a perfectly nice metaphor
        arabella Ella: and for sharing too
        Mickorod Renard: he he
        Fox Monacular: cool thing is that we don't know too much about it:)
        Fox Monacular: yet
        Calvino Rabeni: bye, thanks for all
        Mickorod Renard: bye everyone
        Fox Monacular: bye everyone!
        Mickorod Renard: thanks for a great chat
        arabella Ella: i must be off too
        Wol Euler: bye mick, sleep well. dream happily
        arabella Ella: nite all
        Wol Euler: bye ara
        Mickorod Renard: mite mite,,sleep tite,,
        Calvino Rabeni: Good afternoon all, I enjoyed the talk
        Mickorod Renard: nite nite..sorry..must get a light in here
        Wol Euler: goodngiht calvino, take cre
        Wol Euler: *care
        Calvino Rabeni: you too
        Mickorod Renard: bye Can
        Mickorod Renard: calvino
        Mickorod Renard: wol
        Wol Euler: byeeeeee

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