2009.11.20 07:00 - Struggle 3

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Gaya Ethaniel. The comments are by Gaya Ethaniel.

    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Pema and sophia :)
    Pema Pera: Hi Gaya and Sophia!
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Eliza :)
    sophia Placebo: HI Gaya , Pema and Eliza
    Gaya Ethaniel: How are you?
    Pema Pera: Hi Eliza!
    Gaya Ethaniel: [that's the notecard sophia wrote on jihad Pema]
    sophia Placebo: Good ty , yourself?
    Pema Pera: [thank you!]
    Gaya Ethaniel: Not bad thanks :) Welcome Pema :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Gaya, Pema, Sophia !
    Pema Pera reading . . .
    Gaya Ethaniel: :D
    Eliza Madrigal: Sophia, glad you made it... you hadn't been sure :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Me too :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Any more thoughts on desires Eliza?
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh My.... watched a movie this morning Gaya "Wings of Desire"..amazing
    Gaya Ethaniel: Bonham-Carter?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Henry James?
    Pema Pera: Wim Wenders
    Eliza Madrigal: No... one sec
    Pema Pera: was the director
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah
    Pema Pera: beautiful film
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah the other one ...
    Pema Pera: ?
    Eliza Madrigal: yes.... a poem
    Eliza Madrigal: that's the one
    Eliza Madrigal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wings_of_Desire
    Eliza Madrigal: But don't let me distract
    Gaya Ethaniel: Sorry I keep getting confused with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wings_of_the_Dove ...
    Gaya Ethaniel: I know which you you mean Eliza, Pema recommended a while ago.
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh...hm :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Please go on :)
    Pema Pera: (thanks for taking the log, Gaya!)
    sophia Placebo: yes , i may crash though once or twice during session or non an all , cant be sure about my connection
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well, it's my session now :) Though it may change again soon ...#
    Eliza Madrigal: I must have added it only my netflix and forgotten...arrived a few days ago..anyway... lovely :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: ok sophia, happy to have you here at any rate!
    Pema Pera: ah, sorry, hard to keep up with all the changes :-)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello SophiaSharon :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Adams :)
    Eliza Madrigal: yes :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Sharon! Adams!! :)
    sophia Placebo: Hi SophiaSharon
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hi everyone :)
    Pema Pera: Hi Adams!
    Gaya Ethaniel: I know Pema :)
    sophia Placebo: Hi Adams!
    Adams Rubble: Hello everyone. waiting for things to rezz :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: [Adams, sophia wrote that notecard for us re: jihad]
    Gaya Ethaniel: So ... what have you discovered re: desire from the film Eliza?
    Adams Rubble: Thank you Gaya and Sophia
    Gaya Ethaniel: yw :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Well, it was just quite a feeling of getting out of the abstract... have often felt like those angels...
    Eliza Madrigal: and the idea of getting deeper into the dream to appreciate/awaken...
    Eliza Madrigal: etc :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Not having seen the film ... and don't want to read the plot :) ... could you say a bit more about that process [abstraction to getting deeper etc.] in regards to struggle Eliza?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Perhaps we should elect this film for our film group discussion in Jan :D
    Eliza Madrigal: Well struggle is tangible... our working out into our lives...
    SophiaSharon Larnia: (what is the title? sorry im late)
    Gaya Ethaniel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wings_of_Desire
    Eliza Madrigal: every situation and expression and feeling is there to experience deeply
    SophiaSharon Larnia: ty :))
    Gaya Ethaniel: yw :)
    Eliza Madrigal: What have you thought about Gaya, with regard to struggle?
    Gaya Ethaniel: I've been mulling over re: will, free will in the beginning of the notecard.
    Gaya Ethaniel: How strange to realise exercising the will is a struggle ... how our world is setup in some ways working against us.


    sophia Placebo: and we sometimes work against the world around us ?
    Gaya Ethaniel: That too yes ...
    Gaya Ethaniel: I guess if asked the relevance ... practices help one to see situations, workings of the world and how we respond etc better.
    Eliza Madrigal: When reading the little intention story on the note, it again makes me think of overlaps in traditions and not being distracted by surface level things...
    Gaya Ethaniel: brb
    Eliza Madrigal: Every tradition guides toward examining motives
    Gaya Ethaniel: back and reading ...
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Ive been distracted quite a bit lately about news on tv and seeing the entire world engaged in a large struggle, not a positive topic to dwell one been trying to understand how this defines a collective reality.
    Pema Pera: news tends to filter information, focusing on the negative, since that is more spectacular . . . .
    Gaya Ethaniel: I think political conflicts are difficult to discuss ...
    sophia Placebo: can you say more Eliza , Sophia ?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: definitely true, but i meant more the local stories
    SophiaSharon Larnia: the mundane
    SophiaSharon Larnia: which is horrifying enough
    Gaya Ethaniel: As an individual, we can do what we can ... perhaps even within friends/family or a community ... combined with awareness of the larger world issues.
    Pema Pera: at the same time, politics is everywhere, and we can talk about the general presence of politics, even without going into the particular arguments in any particular struggle (to Gaya)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes
    Gaya Ethaniel: I agree, hard to talk in general sometimes with politics >.<
    sophia Placebo: Hi Fox !
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Fox!!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: HI Fox :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Fox :)
    Pema Pera: hi there Fox!
    Adams Rubble: Hello Fox :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Sophia, I am wondering if you might elaborate a tiny bit more on 'hawa', and on using desires as tools not aims?
    Adams Rubble: Interesting thought Pema. Is it possible for us to do that?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: your comment, Eliza, of getting deeper into the dream to appreciate/awaken... reminded me of that
    SophiaSharon Larnia: this reality being the dream
    Fox Monacular: hello again:)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hi again Fox :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: wb Fox :)
    Eliza Madrigal: And we the dream
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes
    SophiaSharon Larnia: what a dream
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Fox Monacular: something's wrong with my sl today:)
    Pema Pera: well, I often think about a parallel between philosophy and politics -- many people say that they are not political, and don't have a philosophy -- but that seems to imply to me that they are not aware of their implicit philosophy and political orientation (to Adams)
    Eliza Madrigal: (funny how fox always enters when someone says the word dream)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: aww Fox ;p yes it happens
    Pema Pera: (but don't let me interrupt)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :( that's sophia's cushion, try two cushions away Fox.
    Fox Monacular: ouch
    Fox Monacular: sorrry
    Gaya Ethaniel: yay
    Fox Monacular: :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: cheers
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Well, it seems related Pema? the politics and philosophy and the tears and sweat of working/struggle... tools
    Pema Pera: (sorry, two threads; I'd love to hear Sophia's answer)
    Pema Pera: (and yes, Eliza, certainly!)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: brb
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes, now we can talk about why/when one needs to struggle :P
    Eliza Madrigal: :)


    Gaya Ethaniel: But please sophia on hawa ... :)
    sophia Placebo: well desires are basically things we need , and we seek them many times subcouncously or with urge hmm easiest is eating , during ramadan it is not unusual to find yourself eating or drinking though you know you are fasting , we desire things we need , no one need to teach us we need food , desire work by itself here towards food , in this sense desire is a tool not an aim ,my aim of eating food isnt food and isnt feeling full but keeping alive and healthy
    Gaya Ethaniel nods. In some sense, I find desires easier to see through than hawa.
    sophia Placebo: Hawa is not easy to explain with one word , but hawa is about self oriented decision being superior to another not self oriented decision
    Eliza Madrigal: so relational? situational?
    Gaya Ethaniel: So non self orientated decisions are regarded as wholesome?
    sophia Placebo: hmm one might not like the belt in the car , one might smoke and see no harm there even if that lead to many health problems , more of subjectivity all through his decisions
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah... short sightedness perhaps, due to just 'lazy' kind of preferences...
    Eliza Madrigal: or maybe I stretch it a bit
    Eliza Madrigal: or make it negative where it needn't be... thinking
    Gaya Ethaniel: So ... jihad struggle is encouraged to 'say no' to selfish decisions?
    sophia Placebo: not sure what you mean by wholesome gaya but .....
    Gaya Ethaniel: wholesome ... ethically/morally good etc.
    Gaya Ethaniel: wb Fox :)
    Fox Monacular: :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: wb :)
    sophia Placebo: hmm no big no gaya , jihad is a process of purification , not reactive no , sometimes you meet some muslims who do some non islamic things and they admit it i s not islamic but they are still working on it , why i should not do it why no and how
    Gaya Ethaniel: Please say a bit more about purification?
    Eliza Madrigal: there is a biblical line that says "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling"... implies a kind of struggle/wrestling to shed what is in the way of wholeness, in a sense
    Gaya Ethaniel: oh ... perhaps yes Eliza
    Eliza Madrigal pictures all her childhood bible teachers gasping and correcting me for playing with and reading into scriptures... hehe =P~
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: I think it should be encouraged ... to interpret scriptures etc.
    Eliza Madrigal: yes indeed me too :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: It'd much revitalise discussions :)
    sophia Placebo nods


    SophiaSharon Larnia: Bye for now, all ( Pema, I'm not enjoying jenever but an irish coffee....which is putting me to sleep :) ) Take care all!
    Eliza Madrigal giggles
    Gaya Ethaniel: I think places of worship would be busier with people if we are encouraged to see what we can and tolerance to grow ... as well as learn from more experienced people ... anyway back to struggle.
    Eliza Madrigal: By Sharon, nice to see you
    Pema Pera: hehehe, Sharon!
    Gaya Ethaniel: Take care SophiaSharon :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: waves
    Adams Rubble: bye Sharon
    Pema Pera: At least I hope you feel better soon!
    sophia Placebo: ok this is a verse of Quran where hawa was translated to passion : O ye who believe! Be ye staunch in justice, witnesses for Allah, even though it be against yourselves or (your) parents or (your) kindred, whether (the case be of) a rich man or a poor man, for Allah is nearer unto both (them ye are). So follow not passion lest ye lapse (from truth) and if ye lapse or fall away, then lo! Allah is ever Informed of what ye do.
    sophia Placebo: bye sharon
    Gaya Ethaniel: What does ... Allah is ever Informed of what ye do mean to you sophia?
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah! Thanks for that Sophia... Allah is nearer unto both
    sophia Placebo: that to me is referral to intentions
    Gaya Ethaniel: Please say more?
    Fox Monacular: ok, my sl lags too much today:( just like last night:( hope to catch you all some other time
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye for now Fox, sorry :(
    Gaya Ethaniel: Nice to see you Fox, have a good day :) See you soon again!
    Adams Rubble: Bye Fox :)
    Pema Pera: bye Fox!
    sophia Placebo: well if sophia didnt like gaya and wanted her to be banned from bieup , then gaya did something that put her into questioning but she did nothing wrong and i know she didnt but i wanted badly to be banned , i may say the truth and gaya stay or say the lie and gaya banned , no one would know about my injustice except me and allah
    sophia Placebo: by fox
    Gaya Ethaniel giggles.
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: It will come back and bite you later you mean?
    Pema Pera: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I'm synthesizing various sessions this morning ... so interesting.. considering Allah seeing intentions, which makes one aware of them too... if that light is on, it is a kind of purifying...
    sophia Placebo: hehe hmm it is related to the day of judgment
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: a burning away, in a sense, of what isn't essential... or maybe just poetic after the film. hah
    Gaya Ethaniel: I guess it's difficult to see such intentions clearly if pressed down by sense of self.
    Gaya Ethaniel: So I see what you mean by light Eliza :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: wow I want to continue next week if possible ... what do you all think?
    Eliza Madrigal: yes this has gone by in a flash
    Gaya Ethaniel: I know
    sophia Placebo: :) i wont be here next week not the week after
    Eliza Madrigal: Next week is holidays though... hmm
    Pema Pera: fine with me, Gaya
    Gaya Ethaniel: Let's find a time by email :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah... so we can keep this lightly kindled...
    Gaya Ethaniel: yes
    Eliza Madrigal: Thanks! :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Thank you :)
    Adams Rubble: Thank you all :)
    Pema Pera: Bye everybody, and thanks!
    sophia Placebo: Bye Eliaza
    Gaya Ethaniel: Enjoy your day!
    sophia Placebo: bye pema
    Adams Rubble: bye everyone :)
    Pema Pera: I enjoyed the discussion!
    Adams Rubble: me too :)
    sophia Placebo: bye gaya and adams
    Eliza Madrigal waves

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