2009.11.29 13:00 - Several strands

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Maxine Walden. The comments are by her.


    This discussion included a number of voices, some rather new to PaB and other old-timers.  Several strands of discussion wove together, around some specific questions, responded to in a variety of PaB perspectives.  The discussion began with Pema and me.  I have deleted some of the greetings. 


    Pema Pera: Good afternoon, Maxine!
    Maxine Walden: hi, Pema
    Pema Pera: you also like the brown "seiza" cushions?
    Maxine Walden: ah, you know, I am not sure of the difference, but seem to go for them
    Pema Pera: the blue ones let you sit cross legged or with feet sideways (male or female option) while the brown ones let you sit in seiza, with feet tugged under you
    Maxine Walden: ah, thanks
    Maxine Walden: so many options...
    Pema Pera: yes, SL is chockfull of them
    Maxine Walden: did you like the discussion this morning at the guardians meeting?
    Pema Pera: oh yes, and thank you for getting that started
    Maxine Walden: ah, thought I could play that role as needed...
    Bertram Jacobus: hello (again) :-)
    Pema Pera: Hi Bert and Zen!
    Maxine Walden: Bert
    Maxine Walden: and Zen
    Zen Arado: Hi Bert, Pema, Maxine
    Bertram Jacobus: hy zen and aubergine :-)
    Aubergine Mint: hello
    Zen Arado: 3 days old now :)
    Maxine Walden: Lots to get used to in SL, isn't there, Aubegine
    Aubergine Mint: yes
    Maxine Walden: Have you been to these Playasbeing meetings, Aubergine?
    Aubergine Mint: only once
    Aubergine Mint: Wol gave me an introduction
    Maxine Walden: ah, Wol is a good inroducer
    Pema Pera: Hi Calvino and Arabella!
    Maxine Walden: hi, Ara
    arabella Ella: Hiya everyone!
    Maxine Walden: Calvino
    Bertram Jacobus: hy cal and ara ! ... :-)
    Zen Arado: wish I was in Malta
    Zen Arado: so cold here
    arabella Ella: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Hello.
    arabella Ella: still very warm here
    Bertram Jacobus: no heating ? ;-)
    arabella Ella: no heating yet
    Zen Arado: outside I mean
    Zen Arado: sorry
    arabella Ella: yes its still around 20 celsius daytime here
    arabella Ella: sometimes warmer
    Bertram Jacobus: sure. i was jokin - and - thinkin about the modern comfort we have
    Zen Arado: true Bert
    Bertram Jacobus: :-)
    Pema Pera: hi again Vendy!
    Vendy Walpole: Hi :)
    Zen Arado: we shouldn't judge things good or bad anyway?
    Bertram Jacobus: hello vendy ... :-)

    I began to try to direct conversation toward PaB.

    Maxine Walden: Perhaps we could turn our attention and thoughts, concerns, questions about the Playasbeing practice...anyone care to share their experience?
    Zen Arado: Hi Vendy
    Maxine Walden: Or concerns or questions?
    arabella Ella: great idea Maxine
    Bertram Jacobus: not condemn i think but differ is okay in my opinion ...
    arabella Ella: question
    Maxine Walden: yes, ara
    arabella Ella: does the 9 sec pause help anyone to lift themselves out of a 'low' feeling?
    arabella Ella: and how?
    Maxine Walden: Have you had some experience in that direction or wish for such, Ara?
    arabella Ella: it is just a question which came to mind ...
    Zon Quar: hi and like zen said ..no need to answer
    arabella Ella: like ... a question 'arises'
    Vendy Walpole: It helped me Ara
    Maxine Walden: Perhaps others have some experience to draw upon...
    Maxine Walden: Vendy, care to share your experience?
    Vendy Walpole: With the prqactice I got the distance from the problem that covered the whole my horizon
    Vendy Walpole: practice
    Zen Arado: I wouldn't wait - I would be iinvestigating any feelings straightaway
    Vendy Walpole: I got wider perspective
    Zen Arado: especially bad ones
    Vendy Walpole: Seeing like Being I felt the peace and remember that it is in me just neet to lift the veil up
    Vendy Walpole: need*

    Zen offered a question

    Zen Arado: do you believe that past bad experiences leave a residue in the body - anyone?
    Zon Quar: yes
    Maxine Walden: Interesting, Vendy. And Zen wonders about the legacy of past pain...
    arabella Ella: many do yes but we also have a tendency to reject thoughts of such experiences ... the brain is sometimes kind
    Zon Quar: many ilness r due to wrong thinking and feeling
    Calvino Rabeni: Zen, I could go either ay on that question
    Zen Arado: reading a varayana book at present
    Zen Arado: intimates this
    Zen Arado: Vajrayana
    Maxine Walden: Perhaps we can also explore what our PaB practice or experience does/what effect it might have on such pains...
    Maxine Walden: Anyone have examples to share or wonder about?
    Aubergine Mint: I would enjoy knowing why you all enjoy doing play as being and what you get out of it
    Maxine Walden: Always an interesting question, Aubergine
    Bertram Jacobus: i already said a few days ago : i don´t do the 9 sec. practise so much, because i have impressions, it made me a bit mad. but i meditate and try to live a spiritual life. and some of the pab thoughts are very fitting to all that. so - am i wrong with this attitude here ? or right ?
    Zon Quar: ditto
    Zen Arado: I am the same - I have a Buddhist practice that invilvts much meditation
    Maxine Walden: Not sure there is a 'right' or 'wrong' re the practice; we each need to explore in the manner which feels right, authentic for each of us
    Zen Arado: and reading and RL retreats and so on

    And Augergine wondered about a central question...and several responses were offered

    Aubergine Mint: is this primarily a Buddhist group?
    Calvino Rabeni: Aub, that question occurred to me also\
    Pema Pera: no, not at all, we have people following Hindu, Islam, Christian, Taoist, and other traditions
    Pema Pera: and also people who don't follow any spiritual practice
    Pema Pera: but rather are interested in exploring the nature of reality
    Maxine Walden: non-secular, as it were, just exploring the nature of reality, as Pema suggested
    Aubergine Mint: that's what i got from the website, thank you
    Zen Arado: I think I would have found PAB practice great if I didn't have so much regard for and being so involved in Buddhist practice already
    Calvino Rabeni: People bring their own flavor into the mix.
    Pema Pera: and we also don't try to form kind of common denominator, but rather you could say that PaB is an exercise in holding open space for many approaches
    Maxine Walden: and it seems useful to consider that exploring the nature of reality does mean for most of us, trying to reach beyond what our usual senses and pre-occupations with self dictate
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, and "beyond" might include "more deeply into"
    Maxine Walden: yes, the sharing of our experiences, points of view, does allow us to learn from each other...learning about differences rather than feel judged by differences
    Pema Pera: even if you do 9-sec practices a hundred times a day, you still have lots of time for other forms of meditation, so the two don't crowd each other :-)
    Maxine Walden: indeed, Cal
    Pema Pera: Syntropia, please join us if you like!
    Aubergine Mint: do you do the 9 sec practice throughout the whole day or just here?
    Zon Quar: whenever i feel like it
    Calvino Rabeni: Perhaps I mix too much, but I incorporate it into other practices
    Syntropia Orsini: Ah, thanks for the invite, but I may need to leave suddenly.
    Maxine Walden: many of us try it throughout the day as we can and then share our experiences here. But every 15 min, like in a moment, we have the chance to practice here. Like when the bell rings
    Pema Pera: Syntropia, we get together a few times a day to chat about the nature of reality, and everything else, and we have a wiki http://playasbeing.wik.is/ -- We record our conversations there. Do you mind being included in our blogs?
    Zon Quar: the main point in all practises i think is to be more aware; any means to be more aware will do; 9 sec gets directly to that point
    Syntropia Orsini: No thats fine. TYhanks for the explaination and for asking
    Pema Pera: yw!
    Maxine Walden: yes, anyone care to share their experience during this just-past 90 sec pause?
    Syntropia Orsini: I wonder how often reality gets together to discuss the nature of us?
    Syntropia Orsini: Sorry if that is offtopic
    Zon Quar: lol
    Zen Arado: :)
    Pema Pera: perhaps this is happening right now, Syn
    Aubergine Mint: took the time to read all this text
    Pema Pera: like you, we are an alt for Being
    Pema Pera: (just wondered how a 3-day old could have so many groups :-)
    Syntropia Orsini: Which 3 day old...the good looing one or me?
    Calvino Rabeni: It is a new avi
    Calvino Rabeni: but older human

    Trying to focus more on the immediate experience of practice I offered my own just past experience during the 90 second pause

    Maxine Walden: My own experience during this 90 sec pause was to breathe and try to let the birdsong 'be' and to see what else felt 'just being' which included heartbeat, sun out the window...silence in the afternoon.
    Maxine Walden: we may have many different experiences here, which is so interesting, so many versions of reality at the same time
    Maxine Walden: threading together as we meet, some helpful convergences, some interesting divergences...
    arabella Ella: how lovely your description sounds Maxine
    arabella Ella: besides being a reminder of the different geographies and time zones represented here too
    Zon Quar: like it is...yes
    Zen Arado: so many delusions, preferences, prejudices...and that's just me!
    Bertram Jacobus: (why do i read a translator all the time here?) ...
    Maxine Walden: haha, Zen...yes, for each of us!!
    Zon Quar: isnt it great..all thse wonderful stories and delusions
    Zon Quar: for us to enjoy
    Zen Arado: :)
    Pema Pera: Gruess dich, Wol!

    Zen returns to a version of his previous question and considerable discussion ensues

    Zen Arado: has anyone any experience of past experiences being stored in the body?
    Wol Euler: hallöchen, sorry I'm late
    Zen Arado: I'm still not sure of this idea
    Zen Arado: Hi Hallochen
    arabella Ella: Hiya Wol!
    Zen Arado: soryy :)
    Zen Arado: Wol
    Wol Euler: :)
    Zon Quar: guten abend wol
    arabella Ella: do you mean any past experiences Zen or unpleasant ones ... or anything specific?
    Zen Arado: usually bad ones we have repressed
    Bertram Jacobus: i think yes zen. everybody has that. because experiences and body, all things in the end seem like linked and interdependent ...
    Bertram Jacobus: and hy wol :-) ...
    Zen Arado: but you can't prove this scientifically :)
    Zen Arado: you have to take the theory on faith
    Zon Quar: isnt it quite evident
    Bertram Jacobus: no
    Zon Quar: mind body relation
    arabella Ella: sometimes bad past experiences emerge as phobias which initially appear inexplicable but the experience is sometimes identified by hypnotheraphy
    Bertram Jacobus: physically it´s simple, isn´t it ? the interdependence i mean
    Zon Quar: deseases caused by depression
    Zen Arado: yes but when I meditate on my body the experiences don't come up
    Syntropia Orsini: you begin with belief that other peoples experiece on the path is valid, and so you embark on the journey yourself, and prove it triue empirically for yourself.
    Zen Arado: ok I do that
    arabella Ella: would you not need triggers for your memory to recall those bad experiences?
    Syntropia Orsini: faith has very little to do with it.
    Zen Arado: but my body doesn't seem to have much of interest at the moment
    Zen Arado: maybe I am too estranged from it
    Bertram Jacobus: all taht goes up and down. easier times and harder times ...
    Bertram Jacobus: that*
    Zen Arado: too much in my head
    Maxine Walden: Zen, there is the chance to pause and reflect upon a concern, if you wish in a couple of minutes...
    Maxine Walden: and maybe just be curious what comes to mind...
    Zon Quar: why should u expereince that rigth now ?
    arabella Ella: maybe you need to push different buttons rather than ... try harder ... which does not work ... what may work is introducing something new into your practice
    Zen Arado: I have been working with thoughts and now I think it time to investigate the body and emotions
    arabella Ella: walking meditation perhaps
    Syntropia Orsini: Greatbook..."On Having No Head". A man had the realization that instead of a head, he had a world
    Calvino Rabeni: be the body then
    Zen Arado: your body is supposed to tell you what it needs

    Following this bell I again wonder about our immediate experience and as often occurs some less pleasant experiences are mentioned

    Maxine Walden: we all have a pause in a moment...shall we see what comes to mind?
    Maxine Walden: Any experiences to share?
    Bertram Jacobus: nothing special with me. only the actual aspects. talk here, cold feet and such ... ;-)
    Zen Arado: so much going on.....
    Zen Arado: it's a sensory overload here:)
    Zon Quar: breath......
    Bertram Jacobus: may i ask zen ? what, for example ?
    Maxine Walden: there is no 'right' or 'wrong' re the experiences...just noticing them, or the plethora...noticing is part of it
    Calvino Rabeni: Same, so much going on. In the pause I corral my energy
    Aubergine Mint: whew! i thought i was the only one!
    Zen Arado: like two realities to contend with
    Bertram Jacobus: which ones are they zen (!?) :-)
    Zen Arado: ok it's all the same one :)
    Bertram Jacobus: but you experience it in this split way ?
    Zen Arado: I get excited when I visit this group
    Zen Arado: :)
    Bertram Jacobus: hm - ;-)
    Zen Arado: so many thoughts
    Zen Arado: ideas...
    Bertram Jacobus: important ones ? some examples ? plans ?
    Zen Arado: mostly interested in replies to my questions I admit :)
    Bertram Jacobus: which questions are they ?
    Zen Arado: I am interested in meditating in the body at the moment
    Bertram Jacobus: ah yes. nice experiment !
    Zen Arado: reading a book called "Touching Enlightenment: Finding Realization in the Body"
    Bertram Jacobus: tyvm for all those insights zen. i appreciate that very much ...
    Zon Quar: written by ?
    Bertram Jacobus: great
    Zen Arado: REginald Ray
    Zen Arado: he says we are all too disembodied
    Zon Quar: true
    Wol Euler: he'd love second life then...
    Bertram Jacobus: lol
    Zon Quar: spirituality is often understood as somethin our there
    Zon Quar: out
    Zen Arado: happened when we moved from being hunter gatherers to using agriculture
    Bertram Jacobus: yes
    Bertram Jacobus: a big step
    Zen Arado: had to start planning

    I have to go but the discussion continues 

    Maxine Walden: (I will have to go. Interesting discussion. Hope to see you all again soon)
    Maxine Walden: bye all
    Wol Euler: 'night maxine, take care
    Bertram Jacobus: bye maxine . have a good time
    Zen Arado: lmore conceptual thinking less intuition
    Zen Arado: bye Maxine
    Wol Euler: it sounds like he wants to undo 12 thousand years of cultural evolution.
    Bertram Jacobus: i live nearly without any intuition ...
    arabella Ella: bye Maxine
    Syntropia Orsini: lets not romantize "primitve man".
    Syntropia Orsini: otherwise the great apes would be our saints
    Zen Arado: he says the agriculture period is only 0'04% of our total time on earth
    Wol Euler: before that period we had 80% infant mortality and a lifespan of 22 years, by some estimates.
    Bertram Jacobus: yes. and regarding intuition msut not be necessairily romatizing the primitive ... hm ...
    Bertram Jacobus: must*
    arabella Ella: nite all must be off to Kira
    Calvino Rabeni: This is getting interesting
    Bertram Jacobus: bye ara
    arabella Ella: thanks for an interesting discussion!
    Pema Pera: bye everybody!
    Vendy Walpole: Good night Ara
    Wol Euler: I too must leave, sorry to say. goodnight all, thank you.
    Bertram Jacobus: bye pema
    Vendy Walpole: Bye Pema
    Zen Arado: he thinks the conceptual mind should only be a handmaiden of body knowledge
    Zen Arado: bye Pema
    Aubergine Mint: bye everyone
    Zen Arado: bye Wol
    Bertram Jacobus: bye aubergine
    Wol Euler: let's continue this sometime? sounds fascinating. I shall read the log wiht interest
    Vendy Walpole: Bye
    Syntropia Orsini: Bye token dull person.
    Zen Arado: bye Ara
    Wol Euler: :)
    Zen Arado: bye Aubergine
    Zon Quar: namaste all
    Vendy Walpole: Namaste
    Bertram Jacobus: bye zon ... :-)
    Zen Arado: but you have to take this idea of body knowledge on faith is my point
    Bertram Jacobus: and vendy -
    Zen Arado: bye Zon
    Calvino Rabeni: Poof!
    Vendy Walpole: Bye all
    Zen Arado: and Vendy
    Syntropia Orsini: Bye
    Calvino Rabeni: Zen, I might stay awhile
    Bertram Jacobus: the body - mind - link to me always is the eeg : mind makes material reactions
    Zen Arado: do you ever notice that you seem to be being led down a path of knowing?
    Zen Arado: and expereiences seem designed to teach you what you need to know?
    Bertram Jacobus: hey kali :-)
    Zen Arado: Hi Kali
    Bertram Jacobus: take a seat if you like
    Bertram Jacobus: no zen. i´m very unsure , not knowing whether i do things or things happen to me ...
    Zen Arado: I'm just noticing this lately
    Zen Arado: maybe my imagination though
    Bertram Jacobus: i leave it open for the moment
    Calvino Rabeni: Hello,Kali
    Zen Arado: but getting a strong feeling about it
    Bertram Jacobus: may be once i´ll know
    Bertram Jacobus: may be not
    Kali Glendale: Hello ~
    Zen Arado: a different 'knowing'
    Calvino Rabeni: Kali, do you know this group and place?
    Kali Glendale: First time here ~
    Calvino Rabeni: People meet here 4 times a day to share experiences
    Bertram Jacobus: the talks here are recorded and put on our website and we have to ask everybody if he agrees. otherwise we cut his words out of the log. we have notecards to all that ... ;-)
    Zen Arado: and she :)
    Kali Glendale: New to SL - enjoying these lovely places
    Syntropia Orsini: My inane comments are now immortal!
    Bertram Jacobus: lol syntropia - not sure ... ;o)
    Zen Arado: wonder how many read them :)
    Syntropia Orsini: well, as long as the web exists
    Kali Glendale: Thanks for the note -
    Zen Arado: I hope mine get lost in the ether
    Bertram Jacobus: welcome kali - may we take your comments to our website, too ? :-)
    Syntropia Orsini: ether/or
    Zen Arado: :)
    Kali Glendale: Sure ~
    Bertram Jacobus: ty :-))
    Zen Arado: I read that book about 'no head'
    Zen Arado: but didn't get much out of it
    Calvino Rabeni: Hmm, I have many translations in the chat. Did I make that happen?
    Syntropia Orsini: It impressed me when I was 20.
    Zen Arado: might try it again soon
    Syntropia Orsini: but not so much at 2nd reading years later.
    Bertram Jacobus: i had it too before cal. no idea. as i asked, it stopped :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: Sounds anti-intellectual
    Syntropia Orsini: No, just anti-head
    Calvino Rabeni: THe book, I mean
    Calvino Rabeni: I will keep all my anatomy, thanks! :)
    Syntropia Orsini: the intellect resides as a feedback loop between our body and the environment it is in.
    Zen Arado: he ust noticed his head had no physical rality to him
    Syntropia Orsini: Actually, the "mind" hovers between us.
    Zen Arado: could only see the tip of his nose
    Syntropia Orsini: It is found in our interaction.
    Calvino Rabeni: Needs a mirror :)
    Syntropia Orsini: Like they say, "You are only as smart as the people you are with"
    Calvino Rabeni: pretty true
    Zen Arado: have to blieve the mirror and it isn't our real head only a reflection
    Bertram Jacobus: sry - i´ll leave ... may all beings be happy. thanks for the talk and may be see u again ! :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye Bert
    Zen Arado: bye Bert
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