2009.12.01 19:00 - You Dreaming, Being Dreaming

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Eos Amaterasu. The comments are by Eos Amaterasu.

    Eos Amaterasu: Hi Foxtree
    Foxtree Gorbunov: hi
    Foxtree Gorbunov: how is going Eos?
    Eos Amaterasu: Pretty well...
    Foxtree Gorbunov: good
    Eos Amaterasu: Have you been to Play as Being before?
    Foxtree Gorbunov: no...
    Foxtree Gorbunov: first time
    Eos Amaterasu: I'll give you a notecard
    Foxtree Gorbunov: cool
    Eos Amaterasu: we meet here to contemplate & discuss & approach the nature of reality.
    Foxtree Gorbunov: so I was told
    Eos Amaterasu: The chat conversation here is logged (recorded): is that all right?
    Eos Amaterasu: It appears on a wiki, http://playasbeing.wik.is/
    Foxtree Gorbunov: I have no worrys
    Eos Amaterasu: Here every 15 minutes we take a 90 second break
    Eos Amaterasu: & just observe
    Foxtree Gorbunov: I can observe some what well
    Eos Amaterasu: There's such a break coming up on the hour, so we can try that
    Eden Haiku: HI Eos! Hello Foxtree.
    Foxtree Gorbunov: I am a joker how ever
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi Eden!
    Foxtree Gorbunov: Hi Eden
    Eos Amaterasu: Foxtree is about to try his first 90 secs :-)


    Eos Amaterasu: maybe the joke is that there was no ending bell :-)
    Eos Amaterasu: heh heh
    Foxtree Gorbunov: so did we start?
    Eos Amaterasu: How was that, fox?
    Foxtree Gorbunov: good
    Eden Haiku: Yes, I was starting to wonder...
    Foxtree Gorbunov: now we talk?
    Eos Amaterasu: The bells at the beginning of a session are different....
    Foxtree Gorbunov: oh
    Eden Haiku: This 90 seconds seemed like 3 or 4 minutes?
    Eos Amaterasu: Yes, we can talk.... what happened during the 90 secs?
    Foxtree Gorbunov: nothing....I clear my mind
    Eos Amaterasu: I had all kinds of energies of preoccupation
    Eos Amaterasu: but as I noticed those and relaxed
    Eos Amaterasu: more of the world became visible and audible
    Eden Haiku: My day came back to me by waves.
    Foxtree Gorbunov: but what could you do about it
    Foxtree Gorbunov: what can be done with it?
    Foxtree Gorbunov: the past is past
    Eden Haiku: It was like my mine clearing itself I guess..
    Eden Haiku: *mind
    Eos Amaterasu: nice pun
    Foxtree Gorbunov: cool
    Foxtree Gorbunov: can you clean up the past?
    Eden Haiku: The deep mine of my mind...
    Eos Amaterasu: you can't clean up the past
    Eos Amaterasu: even the present is too late
    Foxtree Gorbunov: why not?
    Eos Amaterasu: when things come up they've already come up
    Foxtree Gorbunov: if it is all in the minds eye?
    Eos Amaterasu: it's only at that point you can do something about it, most notably by not doing
    Eos Amaterasu: by not furthering the compulsivie repetition
    Foxtree Gorbunov: then past and future are only in the maind
    Eos Amaterasu: what is the mind's eye?
    Eden Haiku: It felt like some rewinding, very mechanical. Fast images: a hand holding an handle in the subway, faces, excellent meal I had in a new restaurant...
    Eos Amaterasu: or, whose is the mind's eye?
    Foxtree Gorbunov: I have a lost fiend
    Eos Amaterasu: :-)
    Eden Haiku: Bye!
    Eos Amaterasu: Sometimes my "camera" seems to get attached to another avatar
    Eos Amaterasu: like my consciousness gets hijacked by another body :-)
    Eden Haiku: How so?
    Eos Amaterasu: When foxtree left the pavilion my viewpoint "followed" him out....
    Eden Haiku: Look a lion!!!
    Eos Amaterasu: It's a 3D lion!
    Eos Amaterasu: Welcome, 3D
    Threedee Shepherd: Good evening fellow PaBers
    Eden Haiku: Hello Threedee!
    Eos Amaterasu: 3D is a long-time PaBer....
    Eos Amaterasu: we are not speciest here
    Threedee Shepherd: glad to hear it
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi Calvino
    Eden Haiku: Speciest... LOL
    Eden Haiku: Roaring!!
    Threedee Shepherd: hi calvino
    Calvino Rabeni: Hello all.
    Eden Haiku: HI Calvino.
    Eos Amaterasu: How does a lion experience the 90 secs?
    Threedee Shepherd: I am unsure the outfit being worn has very much to do with it.
    Eos Amaterasu: Would someone like to suggest an approach to the upcoming 90 secs?
    Calvino Rabeni: Eden, have you got setup inside your virtual house?
    Eden Haiku: Maybe boundaries.
    Eden Haiku: That could be a good subject for the 90 secs yes?
    Calvino Rabeni: How about, "where am I?"
    Calvino Rabeni: Sure
    Threedee Shepherd: Although, by now my persona is deeply entangled with this lion avatar , so it probably does matter in ways I do not realize explicitly
    Eos Amaterasu: HI Paradise
    Eden Haiku: Hi Paradise.
    Paradise Tennant: good evening :) everyone
    Threedee Shepherd: Hi Paradise


    Eos Amaterasu: Any observations / field reports / roars / whimpers?
    Threedee Shepherd: calmness
    Eden Haiku: Nervousness
    Paradise Tennant: blinking
    Paradise Tennant: :)
    Eos Amaterasu: CAn you say more about calmness, 3D?
    Threedee Shepherd: I am in a latter stage of life, comfortable retirement. It is calm in a way that the pressures of daily life did not previously allow
    Eos Amaterasu: Ah.... I envy you :-)
    Eos Amaterasu: a lion surveying the plains, but no particular need to leap?
    Threedee Shepherd: So would I have. I wonder why I could not discover this way of being 35 years ago ;D
    Eden Haiku: I enjoyed Eos remark about us not being speciest here. I saw Twilight 2 today, and the whole theater was laughing at some silliness in the script. There is a lot of talk about being «speciest» or not, with vampires and werewolfs...
    Threedee Shepherd: exactly
    Eos Amaterasu: So how would one approach, in pre-retirement, even 30 years before retirement, that kind of state of mind?
    Eden Haiku: Here, we meet regularly with elephants, bunnies , foxes and the like. We are really not speciest. I enjoy the neologism...
    Eos Amaterasu: We are also not "life-ist".... do both SL and RL and DL
    Eden Haiku: DL?
    Eos Amaterasu: Dream Life
    Eden Haiku: Nice ;-)
    Eos Amaterasu: (where we also have avatars :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: Any reports from DL?
    Threedee Shepherd: I wonder if it is possible. Earlier I had ambition for career, family, security. I am not sure I would have achieved without ambition, and I think now that ambition blocks the calmness. ?Though perhaps not.
    Eden Haiku: My friend had a dream about this little house here in the village, it is a pub I think? He saw it on my screen and had a dream about it!
    Eos Amaterasu: !
    Calvino Rabeni: Nice crossover.
    Paradise Tennant: hmm interesting when the virtual and real life world merge in dreams
    Paradise Tennant: kind of makes you realize it is all dreams :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Sometimes in waking.
    Eos Amaterasu: About a month ago I had my first merged SL / RL dream
    Eden Haiku: Oh!
    Eden Haiku: Tell is about it Eos.
    Eos Amaterasu: SL characters as well as RL characters (RL is a funny term to use)
    Eos Amaterasu: The dream involved two avatars I know in SL, one of whom I also know in RL
    Eos Amaterasu: seemed no big deal at the time :-)
    Eos Amaterasu: I am waiting for reports of people doing PaB in their dreams, lucidly or not.
    Paradise Tennant: ;)
    Eden Haiku: ;-) How interesting!
    Eos Amaterasu wonders if you can do PaB non-lucidly (wonders if you can do PaB lucidly)
    Threedee Shepherd: I am not sure how different a dream is from PaB
    Eos Amaterasu: Let's investigate that :-)


    Threedee Shepherd: In a dream I watch what "floats by" my awareness without apparently controlling it. Sounds alot like an ideal PaB experience
    Paradise Tennant: hmm sometimes in a dream ..there is the sense you can relax and control it .. it is your dream .. I guess the influence of lucidity ?
    Eos Amaterasu: So was this 90 secs PaB like a dream?
    Eos Amaterasu: Is what I am experiencing right now like a dream?
    Eden Haiku: It reminded me my first sessions here.
    Threedee Shepherd: dreams involve "impossible" conjunctions in a way awake awareness does not.

    Eden recounts meeting her late mother here in SL

    Eden Haiku: I'm still grieving my mother who died a year and a half ago. The fisrt times I came here, about a month ago, I had the feeling she was sitting amongst us. Like in a dream.
    Threedee Shepherd nods
    Eos Amaterasu: Hmm, interesting crossover of realms
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi Maitreya
    Eden Haiku: I read the chat logs of the day she died. In one of them, a particpant narrates a dream in which he was The Reaper !
    maitreya Core: hello
    Eden Haiku: Hello Maitreya.
    Eos Amaterasu: Have you been to PaB before, Maitreya?
    maitreya Core: hello nice to meet you
    maitreya Core: no
    Eos Amaterasu: We discuss and explore the nature of reality, through brief attention suspensions
    Eos Amaterasu: I'll give you a notecard
    maitreya Core: hope im not disturbing you
    Eos Amaterasu: Chats here are logged (recorded), and put up on our wiki http://playasbeing.wik.is/
    Eos Amaterasu: Is that all right with you?
    maitreya Core: do i have a choice ?
    Eden Haiku: No, not at all. You are very welcome!
    Eden Haiku: *about disturbing...
    Eos Amaterasu: Well, the logging takes place automatically
    maitreya Core: ok
    Eos Amaterasu: I'm the "guardian" of this session, and can edit the log afterwards
    maitreya Core: im happy
    Eos Amaterasu: :-)
    Eden Haiku: You have a very inspiring name!
    maitreya Core: why does it inspire you ?
    Paradise Tennant: ;)
    Threedee Shepherd: To come back to our toppic area, how do you think the way this session is happening would be different if it were like a dream?
    Eden Haiku: Well, it reminds me the promise of the Kalachakra of 2006 in Amavarathi, India. We were told that we were sure to meet the next Buddha in a future life. I did'nt expect it to be so soon ;-)
    maitreya Core: yes
    Eden Haiku: It would be more irrational I guess, though it can be sometimes, quite irrational too...
    Eos Amaterasu: Usually in dreams there's pretty total immersion in the reality of the dream, so to speak.... not much distance, observation
    Eos Amaterasu: There's more such awareness in lucid dreaming
    Eos Amaterasu: Here we drop into the 90 secs every 15 minutes
    Eos Amaterasu: But those 90 secs are themselves within the 15 mins which is itself within a greater 9 / 90 / 9 trillion secs
    Eos Amaterasu: that's the dreamlike quality, in a way


    Paradise Tennant: alas I have a very early morning so I will wish you all a good night and thank you for as always interesting discussion :)
    Eos Amaterasu: Bye paradise
    Eden Haiku: Good nite Paradise!
    Threedee Shepherd: bye
    Calvino Rabeni: Could it be, Eos, that we are not really "lucid" in th waking state?
    Eden Haiku: The lion is taking a bath!
    Eos Amaterasu: must be hot....
    Threedee Shepherd: you are just dreaming that
    Eos Amaterasu: :-)
    Eos Amaterasu: outrageous, illogical things are happening - I must be dreaming!
    Eden Haiku: Ah ah!
    Eos Amaterasu: Most of the time I suspect we are not terribly lucid in the waking state
    Eos Amaterasu: or in the dreaming state
    Eden Haiku: Dreambird dragon!
    Eos Amaterasu: beautiful
    Eden Haiku: You have beautiful avatars Threedee!
    Threedee Shepherd: grendel's children shop
    Eden Haiku: Vanished into thin air!
    Eden Haiku: Wow!
    Eos Amaterasu: 3D is putting on quite a show!
    Eden Haiku: I'm amazed!


    Threedee Shepherd: did anything happen while I was away?
    Eos Amaterasu: you'll never believe us!
    Threedee Shepherd: hehehe
    Eden Haiku: Hello Lion! No, nothing special why do you ask ;-)
    Threedee Shepherd: just daydreaming I guess
    Eos Amaterasu: there were several sudden presences of appearance :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: I was daydreaming too - seafood, think. :)
    Eos Amaterasu: appreciated them greatly
    maitreya Core: thank you
    Threedee Shepherd: bye
    Eos Amaterasu: Ciao maitreya
    Eos Amaterasu: see you in the future :-)
    maitreya Core: who's leavimg ?
    maitreya Core: lol im only kidding
    maitreya Core: goodbye
    Eden Haiku: Bye!
    Eos Amaterasu: So Eden, this circle could somehow encompass the presence of your mother?!?
    Eden Haiku: Encompass..maybe not. But she seemed like an avatar to me, as I dreamed about her wearing a sari (which was really strange).
    Eden Haiku: And I felt she was sitting with us, in the first days here,
    Eden Haiku: Pema Pera: So in PaB, our attitude is to play, and specifically to play as if "all is Being" already, before we even try in any way to see that -- and our activity is to stop, to drop activities, frequently, in a gentle way, to ease into this powerful Nothing


    Eos Amaterasu: this powerful Nothing
    Eden Haiku: I read that on the chat log about the Prehistory of PaB. I find that quote very interesting.

    Calvino inquires into lucid dreaming...

    Calvino Rabeni: Eos, you do lucid dreaming?
    Eos Amaterasu: I have done lucid dreaming
    Eos Amaterasu: (is this a dream ? :-)
    Eos Amaterasu: (reality testing...)
    Eden Haiku: Are you lucid ;-)
    Threedee Shepherd: I have enjoyed the hour together, friends, and need to go. goodnight ^.^
    Eden Haiku: Goodnite 3D, nice to meet you!
    Eos Amaterasu: Goodnight Threedee.... thanks for manifesting your true selves :-)
    Threedee Shepherd chuckles
    Calvino Rabeni: See you again, 3d
    Calvino Rabeni: I am questioning it, considering your last question
    Eos Amaterasu: ?
    Calvino Rabeni: What I'm thinking, is that the state of "lucidity" in a lucid dream is not the same lucidity of waking consciousness. Therefore we could be "awake" and not have it.
    Eos Amaterasu: a lot of our so-called waking life is spent filtting in and out of dream states, fixations, getting caught up in things
    Eos Amaterasu: there can be various degrees of lucidity in the dream state
    Eos Amaterasu: likewise in the waking state
    Eos Amaterasu: and in either state there seems to be a background "dreamer", or lucidity, which is not "my" lucidity
    Calvino Rabeni: right, so in that sense, if the dreamer is not awake during the waking state, one is not lucid
    Calvino Rabeni: Usually, waking from a dream, it is "over".
    Calvino Rabeni: Meaning a loss of connection with the dreamer
    Eos Amaterasu: Yes. But you can wake "in" the dream
    Eos Amaterasu: and be aware that you are dreaming while still allowing the dream world/interactions to continue
    Calvino Rabeni: RIght, but perhaps the lucidity can overlap both states of consciousness
    Eos Amaterasu: yes
    Eos Amaterasu: some people can go from waking to dreaming while not losing awareness (that's OBE style of lucid dreaming)
    Calvino Rabeni: Or the other way around
    Eos Amaterasu: yes
    Eden Haiku: Sorry, I have to go. See you!
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye, Eden,
    Eos Amaterasu: Robert Waggoner has explored this quite subtly
    Eos Amaterasu: http://www.amazon.com/Lucid-Dreaming.../dp/193049114X
    Calvino Rabeni: Interesting, thanks
    Eos Amaterasu: By far the deepest book I've read on LD
    Eos Amaterasu: In LD you can learn to control your dream..... somewhat

    You dreaming, Being dreaming...

    Eos Amaterasu: Very unexpected things can still happen: you as the lucid one are still not entirely "the dreamer"

    You being, Being being...

    Eos Amaterasu: just like the ground awareness in PaB is not entirely "your own"
    Calvino Rabeni: I think, if I were to want to explore that realm, I would do it from the awake side of things
    Eos Amaterasu: SL is fascinating in providing yet another playground for this kind of exploration


    Calvino Rabeni: But I appreciate that people specialize in investigating the phenomena of LD

    Imagery, dream, story as ways of knowing...

    Calvino Rabeni: Someone told me Maxine does waking dreaming. Have you had conversations about that?
    Eos Amaterasu: Yes. I'm surprised at how many people can easily slip into dream states, pretty directly from the waking state.
    Eos Amaterasu: or imagistic states
    Calvino Rabeni: If it is in the chat logs, I'll look it up
    Eos Amaterasu: there's a kind of visual, story-telling level of language that is available to us
    Eos Amaterasu: I realized this during the August real life retreat in California
    Calvino Rabeni: The stories are an important mode.
    Eos Amaterasu: Maybe it was just the particular people there, but I realized that the kind of verbal explanatory exploratory narrative I'm used to is not the only way

    Seeing sentience in objects...

    Calvino Rabeni: Part of that level also, I think, is the ability to see sentience in "objects".
    Eos Amaterasu: PaB, the 90 secs, can be approached, and expressed, in many ways
    Calvino Rabeni: Like, relaxing the S / O distinction.
    Eos Amaterasu: let things speak
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, this is what I meant, good.
    Calvino Rabeni: Have to be generous with them and listen

    The dreamtime happening right now...

    Eos Amaterasu: that may be part of what "the dreamtime" is about, that level of the s /o distinctions forming/reforming where reality is still pliable
    Calvino Rabeni: seems that way, yes
    Eos Amaterasu: the dreamtime is happening all the time, right now
    Eos Amaterasu: sometimes we can access it more
    Calvino Rabeni: as in PAB, when being looks back
    Calvino Rabeni: I agree
    Eos Amaterasu: things are their own poetry :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: Rationalists may fear a return to the animistic, demon-haunted world of our ancestors.

    Exeunt omnes

    Calvino Rabeni: that is a nice way to put it
    Eos Amaterasu: Thanks, Calvino, great discussion
    Eos Amaterasu: Have to go to bed, speaking of dreaming :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: Talk to you later, EOS, sleep well.
    Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
    Eos Amaterasu: I'm still waiting for the first report of PaB in a dream :-)
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    3D' s show goes on
    640.66 kB19:45, 9 Apr 2010eosActions
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    Originally written on 02:43, 03 Dec 2009
    Eos, I've had Kira dreams with PaB characters... does that count? :)
    Posted 12:45, 9 Apr 2010
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