2009.12.03 01:00 - Doing the rounds

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Tarmel Udimo. The comments are by Tarmel Udimo.

    When I arrived Calvino was already there and we were joined by Geoff quite quickly, who I hadn't met before. It was an interesting discussion but a little all over the place because we were all kind of responding to various things we each said but never quite connecting... :)

    Tarmel Udimo: hello Geoff and Calvino
    Geoff Baily: Hello Calvino and Tarmel
    Calvino Rabeni: Hello!
    Tarmel Udimo: Geoff, have you been here before?
    Geoff Baily: Yes several times now
    Tarmel Udimo: ok great!
    Geoff Baily: ;)
    Tarmel Udimo: Do either of you have a topic?
    Geoff Baily: On Becoming?
    Tarmel Udimo: yes... or playing:)
    Geoff Baily: ;)
    Geoff Baily: For me it helps to keep the idea of continual renewal in my mind
    Tarmel Udimo: nods
    Geoff Baily: Every second all is new and fresh
    Geoff Baily: Its as if there is a dimension of 'creativity' one can tap into
    Geoff Baily: ranging from creation at one end to complete destruction at the other
    Tarmel Udimo: nods
    Geoff Baily: One can learn to move along it perhaps
    Calvino Rabeni: Geoff, for the pause, can we look into that?
    Tarmel Udimo: you mean being in the present moment or more than that:)
    Geoff Baily: ;)
    Calvino Rabeni: DO you have a suggestion about how it might be done?


    Geoff Baily: not easy, takes time I think and we may all find different routes to the feeling I describe
    Calvino Rabeni: how about you, do you have some way you go about it?
    Geoff Baily: 10 years os so of different meditation practices ;)
    Tarmel Udimo: yes, well that's essentially the purpose of the 9-secs. By pausing even for 9 secs, its opens up the moment and if you can stay with it, then you are in the present moment
    Geoff Baily: the 9 sec fits well for me
    Calvino Rabeni: Might you describe one "in action" related to creativity?
    Tarmel Udimo: I guess the question is - why do we wish to remain aware and living in the present moment?
    Calvino Rabeni: Or is it indirect?
    Geoff Baily: but better as 90 sec every 15 mins for me
    Geoff Baily: Creativity I see as a fundamental dimension of the multiverse
    Calvino Rabeni: I am right now asking more "how" than "why"
    Tarmel Udimo: Ok
    Geoff Baily: it is continuous and antedates the Big Bang
    Tarmel Udimo: what does - creativity?
    Geoff Baily: it is an essence, words are insufficient..........
    Geoff Baily: void;.....)
    Geoff Baily: in a sense the big bang is happening each minute , second if we could see far enough 'back'
    Geoff Baily: but that is using our words to descrtibe something that is indescribable!!!!!!
    Tarmel Udimo: so before the big bang was a creative essense?
    Calvino Rabeni: Don't worry, communication does not need description. Can you accept that as a useful working hypothesis?
    Geoff Baily: there is always a Creative Essence. It is fundamental.
    Geoff Baily: working hypothesis ;)
    Geoff Baily: for me.
    Calvino Rabeni: I think - IMHO - part of what we are up to here is phenomenology, which implies becoming better observers of experience
    Tarmel Udimo: Ok I can accept that there would have had to be something before the big bang
    Geoff Baily: ;)
    Calvino Rabeni: Which is different than explaining or making theories
    Tarmel Udimo: well scientists have 'seen' back into the universe and expereinced the big bang calvino
    Calvino Rabeni: No doubt, but what can we do with our own experience?
    Geoff Baily: perhaps our dimension of time was created at the big bang, so the concept of 'before the BB' is 'difficult' to use??
    Geoff Baily: that is where on can get to Nonduality
    Geoff Baily: *one
    Calvino Rabeni: Geoff, how do you recognize nondual experience when you have it?
    Calvino Rabeni: Tarmel, how do you know when you are dreaming?
    Tarmel Udimo: well the buddhists say we are dreaming all the time until we wake up.
    Tarmel Udimo: and there are times when I feel more 'awake ' than others


    Calvino Rabeni: Sorry I don't mean to put pressure on you, just interested in immediate experience
    Geoff Baily: Words are difficult. Buddists might use 'void'
    Tarmel Udimo: how about you Calvino?
    Calvino Rabeni: How do you, tarmel, specifically, know when you are having a lucid dream?
    Calvino Rabeni: Sure, I will get to that it is ony fair :)
    Geoff Baily: 'i' do not have a nondual experience because there ceases to be an 'I'
    Tarmel Udimo: I agree with you Geoff
    Geoff Baily: There 'is' a nondual experience I feel
    Geoff Baily: felt!!**
    Calvino Rabeni: So does it happen "sometmes" or "continuously" to the not-you?
    Geoff Baily: There 'is' a nondual feeling felt!!! Its sooo difficult even now to hold this
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Geoff Baily: Everything is always happening
    Calvino Rabeni: When you practice, it become more some how when you are not meditating? Some people report that.
    Calvino Rabeni: Is there a shift in exerience through practice, outside that?
    Geoff Baily: there ceases to be a distinction between 'meditation' and 'nonmeditation'
    Calvino Rabeni: (sorry, my kbd drops chars)
    Calvino Rabeni: You live in that now?
    Geoff Baily: there is an awarness of awareness i feel
    Geoff Baily: try to
    Calvino Rabeni: I follow you about that.
    Geoff Baily: difficult to manange to do
    Calvino Rabeni: My opinion - not accomplished by trying, anyhow
    Tarmel Udimo: agree it is not difficult if one doesn't impose conditions on the state of awareness but actually experiences it rather than thinks about it
    Geoff Baily: ;)
    Calvino Rabeni: Still curious abut lucid dreamig, tarmel. Can we compare notes?
    Geoff Baily: let it go, give it away!!
    Tarmel Udimo: well castanada talks about lucid dreaming and I believe it to be the same as being aware
    Calvino Rabeni: :) i agree Geoff about that
    Calvino Rabeni: What is your experience?
    Geoff Baily: i am interested in lucid dreaming. Don't know if I have them
    Calvino Rabeni: Not sure, ok :)
    Geoff Baily: Some can be very real, and 'one' is aware of being a 'dreamer'
    Geoff Baily: at least those one remembers!!
    Calvino Rabeni: Do you have techniques you use "as dreamer?
    Geoff Baily: Write them down
    Calvino Rabeni: It takes a certian lucidity to remembr them.
    Geoff Baily: The more one writes the more one dreams in my experience
    Calvino Rabeni: Geoff, I would say the nondual will help in dream lucidity
    Geoff Baily: ;)
    Calvino Rabeni: Last night I had one based on PAB
    Calvino Rabeni: Not that I did the 9-second pause :)


    Geoff Baily: Me too but I have frogotten it
    Geoff Baily: Where did the 'frog' come from?
    Geoff Baily: In the pool?
    Tarmel Udimo: what was your PAB dream Calvino?
    Calvino Rabeni: thx.
    Calvino Rabeni: Typing is very slow...bear wth me
    Geoff Baily: ;)
    Calvino Rabeni: I dreamt I was with an "evil" version of a friend
    Calvino Rabeni: It was scary
    Calvino Rabeni: So I felt my presence (luciity)
    Calvino Rabeni: To prove it to myself I decided to do something I know impossible
    Calvino Rabeni: So I stood on top of a piece of air
    Calvino Rabeni: And thus knew I was dreaming
    Calvino Rabeni: So decided to ignore the evil figure.
    Tarmel Udimo: so you transformed your dream
    Calvino Rabeni: I went elswhere and started to teach someone a physical art - aikido
    Geoff Baily: Calvino, how did you 'feel' the evil?
    Calvino Rabeni: That was derived from a PAB discussion last night before sleeping
    Geoff Baily: ;)
    Calvino Rabeni: (done! I very frustrated with the kbd tonite) :-(
    Geoff Baily: ;)
    Calvino Rabeni: Evil? The friend acted weird and did bad things to people
    Tarmel Udimo: nods
    Calvino Rabeni: (details gory but unimportant)
    Geoff Baily: I see
    Calvino Rabeni: Not like the real man
    Calvino Rabeni: When I woke I tried to project myself into the evil one
    Tarmel Udimo: so do you feel you worked something out in the dream?

    Pema showed up as if in a dream and graced us with his presence for a few mins:)

    Tarmel Udimo: hey there pema, I saw you standing behind me:)
    Geoff Baily: Hi Pema
    Pema Pera: hi Tarmel and Calvino, and nice to meet you Geoff!
    Geoff Baily: Nice to meet you
    Calvino Rabeni: Dreams are a work in progress, raising consciousness first before"resolving" things - in my experience
    Tarmel Udimo: nods
    Calvino Rabeni: Good night, Pema
    Geoff Baily: ;)
    Pema Pera: (can only stay for a couple minutes; batteries almost empty; in train from Tokyo airport to Tokyo)
    Calvino Rabeni: Where are you?
    Calvino Rabeni: Japan.
    Tarmel Udimo: just arrived?
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Tarmel Udimo: or leaving?
    Pema Pera: arriving
    Tarmel Udimo: ahh
    Pema Pera: just flew from New York
    Tarmel Udimo: nice flight?
    Pema Pera: sure
    Pema Pera: nothing unusual, which is good :-)
    Pema Pera: so I'm close to your time zone again, Tarmel!
    Pema Pera: Thanks for your email Geoff
    Tarmel Udimo: yes close to the future!
    Calvino Rabeni: What is your work in Japan now Pema?
    Geoff Baily: thx for reply
    Pema Pera: (would love to stay and talk, but alas, no electric outlet in this particular train)
    Pema Pera: astronomy, Calvino
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Pema Pera: sorry, bfn!
    Geoff Baily: have a good trip!!
    Tarmel Udimo: bye
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye
    Calvino Rabeni: Gone. :)
    Geoff Baily: Good to meet Pema

    And then he was gone...

    Tarmel Udimo: When I woke I tried to project myself into the evil one > why did you do this Calvino?
    Calvino Rabeni: Do you know dream work methods? It is standard one.
    Tarmel Udimo: oh OK taking the part of all elements in the dream?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, each element is an "I"
    Tarmel Udimo: Ok


    .....and I looked at the time and had friends coming over and needed to log out... but Calvino and Geoff continued to talk for a few more mins.

    Tarmel Udimo: (I am sorry I will have to go)
    Tarmel Udimo: Nice talking to you both - I have claimed the log and will post it
    Calvino Rabeni: Thanks for hosting, good to meet you, Tarmel?
    Tarmel Udimo: likewise
    Calvino Rabeni: Not question
    Tarmel Udimo: I know:)
    Calvino Rabeni: See you again - good day!
    Tarmel Udimo: bye for now...
    Geoff Baily: bye Tarmel
    Calvino Rabeni: Geoff, if it is not terribly nosy, I am curious about your correspondance with Pema.
    Calvino Rabeni: He is very aproachable I found
    Geoff Baily: I sent him a mail telling him a little about me in real life
    Geoff Baily: Yes i thk he's great
    Calvino Rabeni: You have come to sessions here regularly.
    Calvino Rabeni: I think, you like it.
    Geoff Baily: Found this about 2 weeks ago, its great
    Geoff Baily: a good way of exploring and sharing ideas
    Calvino Rabeni: My first session had a big confrontation in it but that tuned out unusual
    Geoff Baily: and developing together
    Calvino Rabeni: Co-intelligence at work :)
    Geoff Baily: i have not experienced confrontations yet!!
    Calvino Rabeni: Rare I think
    Geoff Baily: yes a joint effort to explore and understand
    Calvino Rabeni: The "class project" was interesting
    Geoff Baily: being respectful of other's point of view
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Geoff Baily: "class project"?
    Calvino Rabeni: You can find it in the logs.
    Geoff Baily: ok will look ;)
    Calvino Rabeni: Some college students were, i think, told to come here to study the group
    Calvino Rabeni: Group
    Geoff Baily: think i need to go soon. Have you been here a long time Calvino
    Calvino Rabeni: Not at all
    Geoff Baily: oh yes i read that a little
    Calvino Rabeni: Less than a month
    Calvino Rabeni: And I work at home - have lots of time to drop in here:)
    Geoff Baily: and ??????
    Geoff Baily: and you find it good?
    Calvino Rabeni: It won't always be so, but I enjoy it while I can
    Geoff Baily: ;)
    Calvino Rabeni: It dovetails with multiple long-term interests for me
    Geoff Baily: me too
    Calvino Rabeni: (an involve topic, but I hope we will find time to explore that at some point)
    Geoff Baily: its both the medium and the message that are interesting to me
    Calvino Rabeni: Very true!
    Geoff Baily: yes, love to do that Calvino
    Calvino Rabeni: Need to go however. Good chat - see you later :)
    Geoff Baily: Well , I must go now too bye
    Calvino Rabeni: *good
    Calvino Rabeni: By for now

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