2009.12.04 01:00 - The universe of what we are able to speak about

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    Wol Euler was guardian for this session.

    Trains and phones and Being. 

    Pema Pera: Hi Wol!
    Wol Euler: pema, wow.
    Wol Euler: you are very early, or very late
    Wol Euler: or in Japan
    Pema Pera: veeeerrrrryyyyy slow rezzing
    Pema Pera: in Japan
    Pema Pera: in the bullet train between Tokyo and Kyoto
    Wol Euler: aaaah )
    Pema Pera: the cell phone is trying to switch cells at a high rate :)
    Wol Euler: heh
    Pema Pera: (250 km/h)
    Wol Euler: O.O
    Wol Euler: um, is the train not its own permanent, rolling, cell? That's how the Germans solved that one.
    Pema Pera: that would be nicer, yes
    Wol Euler: how odd that they didn't think of that.
    Pema Pera: but no, I'm using my own cell phone based internet connection
    Wol Euler: but if the train had a cell node, that would still work too.
    Wol Euler: anyway.
    Pema Pera: by now they may actually have one, haven't checked recently, but then I would have to pay and subscribe to yet someone else :-)
    Wol Euler: hmmmm
    Pema Pera: anyway indeed, how are things with you?
    Wol Euler: mostly well, thanks. Lots of stress with Christmas approaching
    Pema Pera: in what way?
    Pema Pera: work?
    Wol Euler: but I'm enjoying it. I prefer stress to dullness
    Pema Pera: "token stressed person" ?
    Wol Euler: work, yes, sorry. The building site has to start in the first week of January, there's a lot to plan beforethat can happen
    Wol Euler: hello arch
    Pema Pera: hi Arch!
    Archmage Atlantis: Hello Wol, hello Pema

    A discovery.

    Wol Euler: I took Qt's advice and did a Nine yesterday during a natural break in concentration, and made an interesting discovery
    Pema Pera listens intently
    Wol Euler: Wednesday had seemed like a bad day: only e-mail and phone calls, I got to draw for about 50 minutes in a ten hour day
    Wol Euler: (most people have no idea how *little* architects do draw :)


    Vendy Walpole: Good morning/evening everyone
    Wol Euler: hello vendy
    Archmage Atlantis: Hi Vendy
    Pema Pera: (must be siimilar in many professions, now, Wol)
    Pema Pera: hi Vendy!
    Pema Pera: and hi Sophia!
    Wol Euler: so, that was a bad day. all coordination and communicaton and no drawing
    Wol Euler: hello sophia
    Wol Euler: well, as I was dropping, I noticed that yesterday had felt like a very good day
    Vendy Walpole: can't see sophia yet
    Pema Pera: (sorry, still too far away, outside earshot)
    Wol Euler: but I had done the same stuff: almost entirely phone calls and e-mail and checking engineers'' drawings, and about an hour of drawing on my own
    Vendy Walpole: excuse me must grab my cup of coffee to be able to think, just woke up...brb
    Wol Euler: so what was the difference, if the work I did wasn't the difference in feeling?
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Wol Euler: it was because I'd spent Thursday *thinking* -- making changes, discussing improvements, finding solutions for problems
    Wol Euler: a good day is a day in which I can think, regardless of which task I am performing
    Wol Euler: and having realized that, I now have a tool for dealing with "bad days". Just find a point where I can apply some thinking.

    Tools, and the downside of promotion.

    Archmage Atlantis: The fate of the manager of technicians of any sort, one has to find a new space in life :)
    Vendy Walpole: (slips back queitly)
    Wol Euler: true, arch, one gets promoted away from that which one likes to do.
    Vendy Walpole: perhaps I missed something, what is the tool Wol, I would need it?
    Archmage Atlantis: That is when growth happens
    Wol Euler: the tool was seeing that the goodness of the day was not what I actually *did* (phone calls instead of drawing)
    Wol Euler: but that I had been able to do some creative thinking during that time
    Wol Euler: whereas the day before had been entirely management tasks, only saying yes or no or 17.3
    Wol Euler: what made that a bad day was not that I spent it doing e-mail and phone calls.
    Pema Pera pondering a possible title of this session: "yes or no or 17.3"
    Wol Euler: heheheh
    Vendy Walpole: nice, understand and does it work always ussualy?
    Pema Pera: yes, email and phones can blanket a large fraction of your day -- how do you think you can bring back more thinking in that pattern -- take breaks away from email? or somehow bringing more creativity even into email time?
    Wol Euler: I'll let you know, only thought of it yesterday
    Vendy Walpole: please do :)
    Vendy Walpole: I also try to do something similar when I am stuck in something
    Archmage Atlantis: I found that becoming part of other's creative processes, and "standing guard" for them to grow as creators is a new different reward
    Wol Euler: well, there are *always* corners of the building that haven't been resolved yet, even while it is being built.
    Wol Euler: a practical answer might be to keep a list of those and pull one out to work on when I feel myself getting annoyed by a "bad day"
    Vendy Walpole: true Arch
    Wol Euler: yes, arch, that's true, and I do enjoy guiding the various teams in their dance around each other

    Sameness and difference — where?

    Vendy Walpole: actually the days are same in their core, we are different, what do you think?
    Wol Euler: so perhaps there are two lessons: enjoy what there is to be enjoyed, and stop wanting to enjoy something else that is not there.
    Pema Pera: (talking about buildings: I really enjoyed when you walked us through Freiburg, pointing out aspects of buildings that I would not have noticed, Wol)
    Wol Euler: I would agree, Vendy, certainly there was little difference in my good and bad days that an outside observer would have spotted.
    Wol Euler: (thank you, Pema, I shall try to do the same in Munich :)
    Vendy Walpole: since architecture is art, it is similar like when we watch at same painting through time, each time we find something new or we could find, depends on us

    Pema invents another new practice!

    Pema Pera: I suddenly got a new idea: when faced with an avalanche of email, going through them one by one, how about short breaks of 0.9 sec each time before opening a new email from the inbox, rather than chewing on them thoughtlessly?
    Wol Euler: hehehehehh
    Wol Euler: micro-droppings
    Pema Pera: yes, Vendy!
    Pema Pera: hahaha, Wol
    Pema Pera: but seriously, I often find that the very first part of the 9 seconds already opens up a whole new universe of its own
    Wol Euler waves to calvino hiding in the bushes
    Pema Pera: sometimes 9 sec feels veeeeery long
    Archmage Atlantis: Interesting idea Pema
    Pema Pera: hi Calvino!
    Archmage Atlantis: Hiya Cal
    Wol Euler: true, vendy, good point.
    Vendy Walpole: I feel as I dive into the ocean with no borders and above the space in which my body is
    Vendy Walpole: in those 9 seconds
    Pema Pera: nice image, Vendy!
    Vendy Walpole: or that could be universe :)


    Pema Pera: Calvino, we were just considering mini breaks of 0.9 seconds in between each email that we read :-)
    Pema Pera: since a typical quick email can last 1.5 minutes
    Pema Pera: Hi Sophia!
    Wol Euler: hello sophia, long time no see.
    Vendy Walpole: Hello Cal, Sophia
    sophia Placebo: Hi all :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Pema and all, hello! (after loonnng lag)
    Wol Euler: :)
    Pema Pera: Alas, I have to warn you: in the next stretch there will be quite a few tunnels, just after we pass Mount Fuji (I'm in the bullet train from Tokyo to Kyoto). So when I suddenly disappear, that will be why -- let me say an "bye in advance" as a warning :-)
    Wol Euler grins. Give Fuji-san a bow from us as you pass.
    Calvino Rabeni: SOme of your bits are missing Pema, now I understand why
    Pema Pera bowing while we speak
    Wol Euler: :)
    Pema Pera: ah!

    Vendy asks a us a good question, and presses for answers.

    Vendy Walpole: I have thought to ask the participants in PaB sessions how they see PaB and what it means to them, to try to change the point of view and look at PaB from outside instead looking from inside towards out. Is it possible? Will you care to tell me?
    Pema Pera wondering whether he has been missing parts of the conversation
    Wol Euler: one of those unanswerable questions, Pema :)
    Wol Euler: we cannot know what you don't know.
    Pema Pera: until I read the chat log, later :-)
    Pema Pera: well, I could IM you the whole chatlog, but that wouldn't be much fun, would it :-)
    Wol Euler: heheheh
    Pema Pera: if you really want to know what I don't know
    Wol Euler: Unknown unknowns :)
    Calvino Rabeni: -I Dont Know -is half The Knowladge.
    Calvino Rabeni: :) thx sophia
    Archmage Atlantis: Hey, I just finally am geting around to reading all the postings on the web,,,,,,I would say the magic is taking hold in the world
    sophia Placebo: :)
    Archmage Atlantis: And with that, gotta go, bye all
    Wol Euler: bye arch, sleep well
    Pema Pera: how about unknown knowns -- things you thought you knew but turned out you were completely off?
    Pema Pera: bye arch!
    Vendy Walpole: Bye
    Wol Euler: Vendy, that's a good question, and a good idea.
    Calvino Rabeni: Arch - good day
    Vendy Walpole: nobody willing to share own view at PaB? :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Thats a known/unknown around here
    Vendy Walpole: (PaB as a group and an idea)
    sophia Placebo: complex ignorance : you dont know that you dont know *
    Vendy Walpole: I am interested to hear how people here experience PaB and what si its role in their lifes
    Wol Euler: well, as you know from the mailing list there is some pretty intense debate about what PaB is.
    Calvino Rabeni: Have you ever heard someone say - "well if you *did* know, then (?) "

    Vendy calls me out.

    Vendy Walpole: could you tell us in short, what is it to you Wol?
    Wol Euler sucks in a deep breath.
    Vendy Walpole: or what attracts you here?
    Vendy Walpole: or anybody else?
    Wol Euler: well, at the risk of upsetting Pema, I am mostly attracted to the quality of conversation
    Wol Euler: the topics and the depth of discussion, on matters that I can seldom find a RL partner to discuss with
    Vendy Walpole: what you see as quality?
    Wol Euler: that people speak largely from experience or from certain knowledge, rather than fluffy bullshitting about what they saw on TV
    Vendy Walpole: no matter the subject?
    Pema Pera is not upset at all, on the contrary!
    Pema Pera: tunnel alert!
    Vendy Walpole: smile
    Wol Euler: the practices have been a great help in my life, and I am pleased when they are discussed
    Wol Euler: phone, just a mo
    Vendy Walpole: how abou someone else to share this?
    Vendy Walpole: in meantime
    Vendy Walpole: you sophia?

    Sophia's turn.

    sophia Placebo: hmm
    sophia Placebo: it is a discussion sim


    sophia Placebo: the thing about discussions in pab is that we dont go analysing things but more exploring how our status was during diffrent situations , inward outward exploration of reality rather the oppisite
    sophia Placebo: *sorry for bad grammer
    Calvino Rabeni: good description
    Vendy Walpole: I agree with you
    Bolonath Crystal: namaste :)

    Vendy and Calvino answer.

    Vendy Walpole: to me this is the place that calls me to journey and the travelers are very good company, though do not know where we shall end but it is the excitement and the challenge for me
    sophia Placebo: Hi bolonath
    Calvino Rabeni: The universe of what we are able to speak about here is much bigger than usual
    Vendy Walpole: (sorry for my grammar)
    Vendy Walpole: Cal, how do you experience PaB?
    Calvino Rabeni: My last statement is a start at that.
    Calvino Rabeni: There is a realm of experience that we are able to converse about here
    Vendy Walpole: and how it reflects into your life?
    Calvino Rabeni: And have assumed permission from the group for it to be more than usual
    Calvino Rabeni: This is exciting because it includes many aspects of my experience
    Calvino Rabeni: not usually appropriate
    Calvino Rabeni: because not physical and/or conventionally defined
    Calvino Rabeni: but nonetheless real

    What is PaB for? 

    Vendy Walpole: What you get here, does it help you in your real life in some way? and what way?
    Wol Euler: back, reading.
    Vendy Walpole: wb Wol
    Calvino Rabeni: do you mean with people other than this group, other conversation settings?
    Vendy Walpole: no, I mean in your every day life, at home, work...
    Calvino Rabeni: Well my everyday life consists of that, to a large degree
    Vendy Walpole: can you use this experience as sort of help in dealing with problems etc...?
    Calvino Rabeni: All problems are in a context of awareness
    Wol Euler: in other words "yes" :)
    Vendy Walpole: yes :)
    Calvino Rabeni: :) thanks Wol
    Wol Euler laughs
    Wol Euler: hello bolonath
    Vendy Walpole: Hi Bolonath, I asked how we all look at PaB
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, but I thought vendy was asking "how" not "whether"
    Bolonath Crystal: namaste wol :)
    Vendy Walpole: and if you wish you can share with us your view
    Calvino Rabeni: An enlargment of consciousness is a how that is difficult to describe
    Bolonath Crystal: for me, pab has tremendously widened my mental horizon, to start with
    Calvino Rabeni: (THus for now I shall remain vague)
    Calvino Rabeni: In terms of what, Bolo?
    Bolonath Crystal: well, i met here so many new views of what we call reality
    Wol Euler nods
    Calvino Rabeni: The enlarged horizon now contains - new perspectives on what is real
    Bolonath Crystal: right
    Vendy Walpole: like this
    Calvino Rabeni: Kind of what I was fishing for during my "turn"
    Vendy Walpole: and it will enlarge through time further, no final definition, nor frame
    Bolonath Crystal: i always love to learn new aspects :)
    Vendy Walpole: yes, me too


    One can distinguish Europeans from Americans by the vehicle of their metaphors.

    Vendy Walpole: I would like to add that during my travel (let it be compared with train) I use to jump out (into real life) and check what i have learned on board :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Dimensions and aspects of the ordinary present - are infinite
    Calvino Rabeni: Trains have a nice rhythm, as does this group
    Vendy Walpole: agree with this too
    Calvino Rabeni: There is a "momentum" or continuity resulting from the ongoing nature of meeting here
    Vendy Walpole: We could all be in same train but see different things through windows and share our views
    Bolonath Crystal: for me sl is part of rl. ok, the setting is virtual, but i communicate with real ppl, not much different to speaking on telephone
    Wol Euler: absolutely.
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, same train - the train now better understands its surround
    Wol Euler: though it is very different to a phone, to me :)
    Bolonath Crystal: technically yes, wol :) much better
    Vendy Walpole: Yes Bolonath, it is my laziness that i still call life out of this place-real life
    Wol Euler: socially too, not just technical.
    Vendy Walpole: they are connected
    Calvino Rabeni: Is it the medium, or the participants, that make it better?
    Bolonath Crystal: both ;)
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I think that was
    Vendy Walpole: if there was no such medium could we talk here now?
    Calvino Rabeni: I have regular teleconferences on Skype that have some of the same flavor
    Calvino Rabeni: as this group
    Bolonath Crystal: vendy, somehow maybe we would have found a possibility
    sophia Placebo: g2g , bye !
    Bolonath Crystal: bye sophia
    Wol Euler: bye sophia, take care
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye sophia
    Vendy Walpole: Thank you Sophia for sharing your views
    Vendy Walpole: Bye
    Vendy Walpole: Anyway, I like Second life :)
    Vendy Walpole: feel really close to you all
    Wol Euler: :)

    Ways to use SL. 

    Bolonath Crystal: i only use sl for pab meetings
    Bolonath Crystal: the group is simply outstanding :)
    Wol Euler: oh, bolo, what a waste :)
    Vendy Walpole: and I like here the atmosphere in the group, so free and inspirational, yet a challenge
    Wol Euler: there's so much fun to be had here, so many interesting people...
    Bolonath Crystal: it is also a matter of time, wol
    Calvino Rabeni: I believe there will be a transfer from this group experience to RL, for me. Maybe for others also.
    Vendy Walpole: In Second Life I am fascinated by human imagination, more than any other medium
    Vendy Walpole: After almost two years it takes my breath away often still
    Wol Euler nods
    Calvino Rabeni: I was thinking that a bit today, vendy, looking at the imaginary become real in the form of the "house" area I constructed in this sim.
    Calvino Rabeni: But more abstract constructions are also happening
    Vendy Walpole: yes, here all is possible and that is great, abstract as much as "real"

    Perception and visualization, and impossibility. 

    Bolonath Crystal: i am attending these meetings here since about three months now, and i already find it easier to keep the position of an 'unattached observer' in rl. that's very helpful especially in conflict situations
    Calvino Rabeni: The imagination finds a way to play with new or changed limits
    Calvino Rabeni: What kind of conflict
    Vendy Walpole: I practice the same Bolonath and it helped
    Wol Euler: definitely, yes.
    Bolonath Crystal: any kind, cal
    Wol Euler: PaB has been a great help in dealing wiht RL stress
    Calvino Rabeni: As in imagining a point of view of another?
    Calvino Rabeni: Listens to Wol and Bolo
    Bolonath Crystal: yes, for example
    Bolonath Crystal: but also with inner conflicts
    Calvino Rabeni: Giving a spatial feeling to imagining perspectives


    Calvino Rabeni: Lots of visualizations in the TSK work seem to use that.
    Vendy Walpole: Cal, there is a group IRL in Second Life, about things that could not be realized in RL but are possible to be realized here, constructions etc - Impossible in Real Life
    Wol Euler: NPIRL
    Calvino Rabeni: I noticed the title - is it good?
    Calvino Rabeni: Is it about physical objects?
    Vendy Walpole: yes
    Wol Euler: and about experiences.
    Vendy Walpole: which can't (were not) be constructed in RL
    Wol Euler: Bryn Oh's constructions are amazingly sad and moving.
    Calvino Rabeni: That too - I will check it out
    Vendy Walpole: can't
    Calvino Rabeni: Art
    Wol Euler: definitely art.
    Calvino Rabeni: Sounds good
    Vendy Walpole: no limits actually
    Bolonath Crystal: you mean things like cheese wrappings that can be opened easily?
    Calvino Rabeni: Imagination needs space and the darkness too
    Calvino Rabeni: Room to move
    Vendy Walpole: why not Bolonath :)
    Vendy Walpole: field to play
    Bolonath Crystal: i miss those in rl ;)
    Wol Euler: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Well, new experiences could come in a package like a banana - natural and easy to open.
    Calvino Rabeni: and biodegradable
    Vendy Walpole: Since we are all children deep inside, we still need such play yard
    Vendy Walpole: It is available here
    Calvino Rabeni: Play - this spilled a bit from PAB to RL with my mother one evening
    Wol Euler laughs.
    Calvino Rabeni: A child-like play session erupted unexpectedly
    Bolonath Crystal: sorry, i have to go
    Calvino Rabeni: Bolo departs dramatically
    Vendy Walpole: Ok, thank you Bolo and bye
    Bolonath Crystal: om shanti :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye, Bolonath
    Wol Euler: bye bolo
    Vendy Walpole: this is not my standard time, I should be at work, but have/had flu, thats why I am here at this time
    Vendy Walpole: not that bad flu :)
    Wol Euler: well, your discomfort is our gain :)
    Wol Euler: nonehteless: I wish you a speedy recovery
    Vendy Walpole: I am much better actaully, thank you Wol
    Vendy Walpole: Okay, time to part
    Wol Euler: bye vendy, take care.
    Vendy Walpole: Thank you so much for sharing your experiences
    Vendy Walpole: Hope see you very soon
    Calvino Rabeni: You too, thanks Vendy
    Wol Euler: thank you for suggesting it!
    Vendy Walpole: :)
    Vendy Walpole: Bye Wol, Cal, have great day
    Wol Euler: I should have a shower and get to work, RL calls.
    Calvino Rabeni: Have a good day Wol
    Wol Euler: you too, cal, enjoy.
    Wol Euler: see you anon.
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