2009.12.04 01:00 - The universe of what we are able to speak about

Wol Euler was guardian for this session.

Trains and phones and Being. 

Pema Pera: Hi Wol!
Wol Euler: pema, wow.
Wol Euler: you are very early, or very late
Wol Euler: or in Japan
Pema Pera: veeeerrrrryyyyy slow rezzing
Pema Pera: in Japan
Pema Pera: in the bullet train between Tokyo and Kyoto
Wol Euler: aaaah )
Pema Pera: the cell phone is trying to switch cells at a high rate :)
Wol Euler: heh
Pema Pera: (250 km/h)
Wol Euler: O.O
Wol Euler: um, is the train not its own permanent, rolling, cell? That's how the Germans solved that one.
Pema Pera: that would be nicer, yes
Wol Euler: how odd that they didn't think of that.
Pema Pera: but no, I'm using my own cell phone based internet connection
Wol Euler: but if the train had a cell node, that would still work too.
Wol Euler: anyway.
Pema Pera: by now they may actually have one, haven't checked recently, but then I would have to pay and subscribe to yet someone else :-)
Wol Euler: hmmmm
Pema Pera: anyway indeed, how are things with you?
Wol Euler: mostly well, thanks. Lots of stress with Christmas approaching
Pema Pera: in what way?
Pema Pera: work?
Wol Euler: but I'm enjoying it. I prefer stress to dullness
Pema Pera: "token stressed person" ?
Wol Euler: work, yes, sorry. The building site has to start in the first week of January, there's a lot to plan beforethat can happen
Wol Euler: hello arch
Pema Pera: hi Arch!
Archmage Atlantis: Hello Wol, hello Pema

A discovery.

Wol Euler: I took Qt's advice and did a Nine yesterday during a natural break in concentration, and made an interesting discovery
Pema Pera listens intently
Wol Euler: Wednesday had seemed like a bad day: only e-mail and phone calls, I got to draw for about 50 minutes in a ten hour day
Wol Euler: (most people have no idea how *little* architects do draw :)

--BELL--

Vendy Walpole: Good morning/evening everyone
Wol Euler: hello vendy
Archmage Atlantis: Hi Vendy
Pema Pera: (must be siimilar in many professions, now, Wol)
Pema Pera: hi Vendy!
Pema Pera: and hi Sophia!
Wol Euler: so, that was a bad day. all coordination and communicaton and no drawing
Wol Euler: hello sophia
Wol Euler: well, as I was dropping, I noticed that yesterday had felt like a very good day
Vendy Walpole: can't see sophia yet
Pema Pera: (sorry, still too far away, outside earshot)
Wol Euler: but I had done the same stuff: almost entirely phone calls and e-mail and checking engineers'' drawings, and about an hour of drawing on my own
Vendy Walpole: excuse me must grab my cup of coffee to be able to think, just woke up...brb
Wol Euler: so what was the difference, if the work I did wasn't the difference in feeling?
Pema Pera: :-)
Wol Euler: it was because I'd spent Thursday *thinking* -- making changes, discussing improvements, finding solutions for problems
Wol Euler: a good day is a day in which I can think, regardless of which task I am performing
Wol Euler: and having realized that, I now have a tool for dealing with "bad days". Just find a point where I can apply some thinking.

Tools, and the downside of promotion.

Archmage Atlantis: The fate of the manager of technicians of any sort, one has to find a new space in life :)
Vendy Walpole: (slips back queitly)
Wol Euler: true, arch, one gets promoted away from that which one likes to do.
Vendy Walpole: perhaps I missed something, what is the tool Wol, I would need it?
Archmage Atlantis: That is when growth happens
Wol Euler: the tool was seeing that the goodness of the day was not what I actually *did* (phone calls instead of drawing)
Wol Euler: but that I had been able to do some creative thinking during that time
Wol Euler: whereas the day before had been entirely management tasks, only saying yes or no or 17.3
Wol Euler: what made that a bad day was not that I spent it doing e-mail and phone calls.
Pema Pera pondering a possible title of this session: "yes or no or 17.3"
Wol Euler: heheheh
Vendy Walpole: nice, understand and does it work always ussualy?
Pema Pera: yes, email and phones can blanket a large fraction of your day -- how do you think you can bring back more thinking in that pattern -- take breaks away from email? or somehow bringing more creativity even into email time?
Wol Euler: I'll let you know, only thought of it yesterday
Vendy Walpole: please do :)
Vendy Walpole: I also try to do something similar when I am stuck in something
Archmage Atlantis: I found that becoming part of other's creative processes, and "standing guard" for them to grow as creators is a new different reward
Wol Euler: well, there are *always* corners of the building that haven't been resolved yet, even while it is being built.
Wol Euler: a practical answer might be to keep a list of those and pull one out to work on when I feel myself getting annoyed by a "bad day"
Vendy Walpole: true Arch
Wol Euler: yes, arch, that's true, and I do enjoy guiding the various teams in their dance around each other

Sameness and difference — where?

Vendy Walpole: actually the days are same in their core, we are different, what do you think?
Wol Euler: so perhaps there are two lessons: enjoy what there is to be enjoyed, and stop wanting to enjoy something else that is not there.
Pema Pera: (talking about buildings: I really enjoyed when you walked us through Freiburg, pointing out aspects of buildings that I would not have noticed, Wol)
Wol Euler: I would agree, Vendy, certainly there was little difference in my good and bad days that an outside observer would have spotted.
Wol Euler: (thank you, Pema, I shall try to do the same in Munich :)
Vendy Walpole: since architecture is art, it is similar like when we watch at same painting through time, each time we find something new or we could find, depends on us

Pema invents another new practice!

Pema Pera: I suddenly got a new idea: when faced with an avalanche of email, going through them one by one, how about short breaks of 0.9 sec each time before opening a new email from the inbox, rather than chewing on them thoughtlessly?
Wol Euler: hehehehehh
Wol Euler: micro-droppings
Pema Pera: yes, Vendy!
Pema Pera: hahaha, Wol
Pema Pera: but seriously, I often find that the very first part of the 9 seconds already opens up a whole new universe of its own
Wol Euler waves to calvino hiding in the bushes
Pema Pera: sometimes 9 sec feels veeeeery long
Archmage Atlantis: Interesting idea Pema
Pema Pera: hi Calvino!
Archmage Atlantis: Hiya Cal
Wol Euler: true, vendy, good point.
Vendy Walpole: I feel as I dive into the ocean with no borders and above the space in which my body is
Vendy Walpole: in those 9 seconds
Pema Pera: nice image, Vendy!
Vendy Walpole: or that could be universe :)

--BELL--

Pema Pera: Calvino, we were just considering mini breaks of 0.9 seconds in between each email that we read :-)
Pema Pera: since a typical quick email can last 1.5 minutes
Pema Pera: Hi Sophia!
Wol Euler: hello sophia, long time no see.
Vendy Walpole: Hello Cal, Sophia
sophia Placebo: Hi all :)
Calvino Rabeni: Pema and all, hello! (after loonnng lag)
Wol Euler: :)
Pema Pera: Alas, I have to warn you: in the next stretch there will be quite a few tunnels, just after we pass Mount Fuji (I'm in the bullet train from Tokyo to Kyoto). So when I suddenly disappear, that will be why -- let me say an "bye in advance" as a warning :-)
Wol Euler grins. Give Fuji-san a bow from us as you pass.
Calvino Rabeni: SOme of your bits are missing Pema, now I understand why
Pema Pera bowing while we speak
Wol Euler: :)
Pema Pera: ah!

Vendy asks a us a good question, and presses for answers.

Vendy Walpole: I have thought to ask the participants in PaB sessions how they see PaB and what it means to them, to try to change the point of view and look at PaB from outside instead looking from inside towards out. Is it possible? Will you care to tell me?
Pema Pera wondering whether he has been missing parts of the conversation
Wol Euler: one of those unanswerable questions, Pema :)
Wol Euler: we cannot know what you don't know.
Pema Pera: until I read the chat log, later :-)
Pema Pera: well, I could IM you the whole chatlog, but that wouldn't be much fun, would it :-)
Wol Euler: heheheh
Pema Pera: if you really want to know what I don't know
Wol Euler: Unknown unknowns :)
Calvino Rabeni: -I Dont Know -is half The Knowladge.
Calvino Rabeni: :) thx sophia
Archmage Atlantis: Hey, I just finally am geting around to reading all the postings on the web,,,,,,I would say the magic is taking hold in the world
sophia Placebo: :)
Archmage Atlantis: And with that, gotta go, bye all
Wol Euler: bye arch, sleep well
Pema Pera: how about unknown knowns -- things you thought you knew but turned out you were completely off?
Pema Pera: bye arch!
Vendy Walpole: Bye
Wol Euler: Vendy, that's a good question, and a good idea.
Calvino Rabeni: Arch - good day
Vendy Walpole: nobody willing to share own view at PaB? :)
Calvino Rabeni: Thats a known/unknown around here
Vendy Walpole: (PaB as a group and an idea)
sophia Placebo: complex ignorance : you dont know that you dont know *
Vendy Walpole: I am interested to hear how people here experience PaB and what si its role in their lifes
Wol Euler: well, as you know from the mailing list there is some pretty intense debate about what PaB is.
Calvino Rabeni: Have you ever heard someone say - "well if you *did* know, then (?) "

Vendy calls me out.

Vendy Walpole: could you tell us in short, what is it to you Wol?
Wol Euler sucks in a deep breath.
Vendy Walpole: or what attracts you here?
Vendy Walpole: or anybody else?
Wol Euler: well, at the risk of upsetting Pema, I am mostly attracted to the quality of conversation
Wol Euler: the topics and the depth of discussion, on matters that I can seldom find a RL partner to discuss with
Vendy Walpole: what you see as quality?
Wol Euler: that people speak largely from experience or from certain knowledge, rather than fluffy bullshitting about what they saw on TV
Vendy Walpole: no matter the subject?
Pema Pera is not upset at all, on the contrary!
Pema Pera: tunnel alert!
Vendy Walpole: smile
Wol Euler: the practices have been a great help in my life, and I am pleased when they are discussed
Wol Euler: phone, just a mo
Vendy Walpole: how abou someone else to share this?
Vendy Walpole: in meantime
Vendy Walpole: you sophia?

Sophia's turn.

sophia Placebo: hmm
sophia Placebo: it is a discussion sim

--BELL--

sophia Placebo: the thing about discussions in pab is that we dont go analysing things but more exploring how our status was during diffrent situations , inward outward exploration of reality rather the oppisite
sophia Placebo: *sorry for bad grammer
Calvino Rabeni: good description
Vendy Walpole: I agree with you
Bolonath Crystal: namaste :)

Vendy and Calvino answer.

Vendy Walpole: to me this is the place that calls me to journey and the travelers are very good company, though do not know where we shall end but it is the excitement and the challenge for me
sophia Placebo: Hi bolonath
Calvino Rabeni: The universe of what we are able to speak about here is much bigger than usual
Vendy Walpole: (sorry for my grammar)
Vendy Walpole: Cal, how do you experience PaB?
Calvino Rabeni: My last statement is a start at that.
Calvino Rabeni: There is a realm of experience that we are able to converse about here
Vendy Walpole: and how it reflects into your life?
Calvino Rabeni: And have assumed permission from the group for it to be more than usual
Calvino Rabeni: This is exciting because it includes many aspects of my experience
Calvino Rabeni: not usually appropriate
Calvino Rabeni: because not physical and/or conventionally defined
Calvino Rabeni: but nonetheless real

What is PaB for? 

Vendy Walpole: What you get here, does it help you in your real life in some way? and what way?
Wol Euler: back, reading.
Vendy Walpole: wb Wol
Calvino Rabeni: do you mean with people other than this group, other conversation settings?
Vendy Walpole: no, I mean in your every day life, at home, work...
Calvino Rabeni: Well my everyday life consists of that, to a large degree
Vendy Walpole: can you use this experience as sort of help in dealing with problems etc...?
Calvino Rabeni: All problems are in a context of awareness
Wol Euler: in other words "yes" :)
Vendy Walpole: yes :)
Calvino Rabeni: :) thanks Wol
Wol Euler laughs
Wol Euler: hello bolonath
Vendy Walpole: Hi Bolonath, I asked how we all look at PaB
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, but I thought vendy was asking "how" not "whether"
Bolonath Crystal: namaste wol :)
Vendy Walpole: and if you wish you can share with us your view
Calvino Rabeni: An enlargment of consciousness is a how that is difficult to describe
Bolonath Crystal: for me, pab has tremendously widened my mental horizon, to start with
Calvino Rabeni: (THus for now I shall remain vague)
Calvino Rabeni: In terms of what, Bolo?
Bolonath Crystal: well, i met here so many new views of what we call reality
Wol Euler nods
Calvino Rabeni: The enlarged horizon now contains - new perspectives on what is real
Bolonath Crystal: right
Vendy Walpole: like this
Calvino Rabeni: Kind of what I was fishing for during my "turn"
Vendy Walpole: and it will enlarge through time further, no final definition, nor frame
Bolonath Crystal: i always love to learn new aspects :)
Vendy Walpole: yes, me too

--BELL--

One can distinguish Europeans from Americans by the vehicle of their metaphors.

Vendy Walpole: I would like to add that during my travel (let it be compared with train) I use to jump out (into real life) and check what i have learned on board :)
Calvino Rabeni: Dimensions and aspects of the ordinary present - are infinite
Calvino Rabeni: Trains have a nice rhythm, as does this group
Vendy Walpole: agree with this too
Calvino Rabeni: There is a "momentum" or continuity resulting from the ongoing nature of meeting here
Vendy Walpole: We could all be in same train but see different things through windows and share our views
Bolonath Crystal: for me sl is part of rl. ok, the setting is virtual, but i communicate with real ppl, not much different to speaking on telephone
Wol Euler: absolutely.
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, same train - the train now better understands its surround
Wol Euler: though it is very different to a phone, to me :)
Bolonath Crystal: technically yes, wol :) much better
Vendy Walpole: Yes Bolonath, it is my laziness that i still call life out of this place-real life
Wol Euler: socially too, not just technical.
Vendy Walpole: they are connected
Calvino Rabeni: Is it the medium, or the participants, that make it better?
Bolonath Crystal: both ;)
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I think that was
Vendy Walpole: if there was no such medium could we talk here now?
Calvino Rabeni: I have regular teleconferences on Skype that have some of the same flavor
Calvino Rabeni: as this group
Bolonath Crystal: vendy, somehow maybe we would have found a possibility
sophia Placebo: g2g , bye !
Bolonath Crystal: bye sophia
Wol Euler: bye sophia, take care
Calvino Rabeni: Bye sophia
Vendy Walpole: Thank you Sophia for sharing your views
Vendy Walpole: Bye
Vendy Walpole: Anyway, I like Second life :)
Vendy Walpole: feel really close to you all
Wol Euler: :)

Ways to use SL. 

Bolonath Crystal: i only use sl for pab meetings
Bolonath Crystal: the group is simply outstanding :)
Wol Euler: oh, bolo, what a waste :)
Vendy Walpole: and I like here the atmosphere in the group, so free and inspirational, yet a challenge
Wol Euler: there's so much fun to be had here, so many interesting people...
Bolonath Crystal: it is also a matter of time, wol
Calvino Rabeni: I believe there will be a transfer from this group experience to RL, for me. Maybe for others also.
Vendy Walpole: In Second Life I am fascinated by human imagination, more than any other medium
Vendy Walpole: After almost two years it takes my breath away often still
Wol Euler nods
Calvino Rabeni: I was thinking that a bit today, vendy, looking at the imaginary become real in the form of the "house" area I constructed in this sim.
Calvino Rabeni: But more abstract constructions are also happening
Vendy Walpole: yes, here all is possible and that is great, abstract as much as "real"

Perception and visualization, and impossibility. 

Bolonath Crystal: i am attending these meetings here since about three months now, and i already find it easier to keep the position of an 'unattached observer' in rl. that's very helpful especially in conflict situations
Calvino Rabeni: The imagination finds a way to play with new or changed limits
Calvino Rabeni: What kind of conflict
Vendy Walpole: I practice the same Bolonath and it helped
Wol Euler: definitely, yes.
Bolonath Crystal: any kind, cal
Wol Euler: PaB has been a great help in dealing wiht RL stress
Calvino Rabeni: As in imagining a point of view of another?
Calvino Rabeni: Listens to Wol and Bolo
Bolonath Crystal: yes, for example
Bolonath Crystal: but also with inner conflicts
Calvino Rabeni: Giving a spatial feeling to imagining perspectives

--BELL--

Calvino Rabeni: Lots of visualizations in the TSK work seem to use that.
Vendy Walpole: Cal, there is a group IRL in Second Life, about things that could not be realized in RL but are possible to be realized here, constructions etc - Impossible in Real Life
Wol Euler: NPIRL
Calvino Rabeni: I noticed the title - is it good?
Calvino Rabeni: Is it about physical objects?
Vendy Walpole: yes
Wol Euler: and about experiences.
Vendy Walpole: which can't (were not) be constructed in RL
Wol Euler: Bryn Oh's constructions are amazingly sad and moving.
Calvino Rabeni: That too - I will check it out
Vendy Walpole: can't
Calvino Rabeni: Art
Wol Euler: definitely art.
Calvino Rabeni: Sounds good
Vendy Walpole: no limits actually
Bolonath Crystal: you mean things like cheese wrappings that can be opened easily?
Calvino Rabeni: Imagination needs space and the darkness too
Calvino Rabeni: Room to move
Vendy Walpole: why not Bolonath :)
Vendy Walpole: field to play
Bolonath Crystal: i miss those in rl ;)
Wol Euler: :)
Calvino Rabeni: Well, new experiences could come in a package like a banana - natural and easy to open.
Calvino Rabeni: and biodegradable
Vendy Walpole: Since we are all children deep inside, we still need such play yard
Vendy Walpole: It is available here
Calvino Rabeni: Play - this spilled a bit from PAB to RL with my mother one evening
Wol Euler laughs.
Calvino Rabeni: A child-like play session erupted unexpectedly
Bolonath Crystal: sorry, i have to go
Calvino Rabeni: Bolo departs dramatically
Vendy Walpole: Ok, thank you Bolo and bye
Bolonath Crystal: om shanti :)
Calvino Rabeni: Bye, Bolonath
Wol Euler: bye bolo
Vendy Walpole: this is not my standard time, I should be at work, but have/had flu, thats why I am here at this time
Vendy Walpole: not that bad flu :)
Wol Euler: well, your discomfort is our gain :)
Wol Euler: nonehteless: I wish you a speedy recovery
Vendy Walpole: I am much better actaully, thank you Wol
Vendy Walpole: Okay, time to part
Wol Euler: bye vendy, take care.
Vendy Walpole: Thank you so much for sharing your experiences
Vendy Walpole: Hope see you very soon
Calvino Rabeni: You too, thanks Vendy
Wol Euler: thank you for suggesting it!
Vendy Walpole: :)
Vendy Walpole: Bye Wol, Cal, have great day
Wol Euler: I should have a shower and get to work, RL calls.
Calvino Rabeni: Have a good day Wol
Wol Euler: you too, cal, enjoy.
Wol Euler: see you anon.