2009.12.12 19:00 - Flow

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Pema Pera. The comments are by Pema Pera.

    Pema Pera: Hi there Eden!
    Eden Haiku: HI Pema. How are you?
    Pema Pera: fine! Quiet Sunday morning for me here
    Eden Haiku: Oh you are tomorrow. In Zeroth time...
    Pema Pera: hehehe
    Pema Pera: I'm in Tokyo, yes. After a very busy first week in Japan, I slept out, 11 hours in total, felt very good!
    Eden Haiku: Yes, the jet lag must take a while.
    Eden Haiku: So now, you feel refreshed, that is nice!
    Pema Pera: it's not so much the jet lag as a busy schedule
    Pema Pera: including SL appearances
    Pema Pera: sometimes at 7 am local time, somtimes at midnight local time, sigh
    Eden Haiku: You do that often, going back and forth for 6 weeks or so from Princeton to Tokyo?
    Pema Pera: it really breaks up day and night
    Pema Pera: yes, to Japan, to Europe, to California, typically a few weeks at a time
    Eden Haiku: Do you take the no-jet lap homeopathic pills?
    Pema Pera: Right now it is 12 noon, so this is a prefect time
    Eden Haiku: ;-)
    Pema Pera: oh no, I don't take any mediine
    Pema Pera: hi Eliza!
    Pema Pera: I just live in dream time when need be :)
    Pema Pera: Hi Calvino!
    Eden Haiku: ;-)
    Eden Haiku: hi!
    Calvino Rabeni: Hello Eden and ELiza
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Everyone :)
    Eden Haiku: Oh Eliza, I see you now!
    Pema Pera: does anyone have a topic they'd like to bring up?
    Pema Pera: (I haven't read many chat logs of the last week yet; been too busy)
    Pema Pera: (will try to catch up soon)
    Eden Haiku: You are excused..;-)
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Pema Pera: that was easy!!
    Eden Haiku: ^_
    Pema Pera: you must be a very gentle teacher
    Eden Haiku: Oups ^_
    Eden Haiku: hey,,,can'T write the japanese smile...
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, My, Eden. Nice hair :)
    Pema Pera: (^_^)
    Eden Haiku: Yes, I dared!
    Eliza Madrigal smiles
    Pema Pera: you look quite daring, indeed ^^
    Eden Haiku: ^_^
    Pema Pera: (*^_^*)
    Eden brings up a topic.
    Eden Haiku: Went floating on this beautiful stream at Kuan Yin Terraces.
    Eden Haiku: Why don't we talk about flow?
    Pema Pera: please do, Eden :)
    Eden Haiku: Hum hum... coughing..
    Eden Haiku: Wondering what she could say about flow...
    Eden Haiku: her mind completely blank...
    Eliza Madrigal thinks of the man with the long name who wrote the book "Flow"...
    Eden Haiku: Yes Michalealy something
    Eliza Madrigal: yes :)
    Eden Haiku: Hungarian I think.
    Eden Haiku: You understand flow when you have a name like that, you have to.
    Eliza Madrigal: haha
    Pema Pera: hahaha
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes imagine the patience needed when signing things... or spelling for others...
    Eden Haiku: I remember reading it and living by it for a while.
    Eden Haiku: yes, that is so true Eliza!
    Eden Haiku: That is one of the books I kept when I moved.
    Pema Pera: hi Sharon and Fox!
    Pema Pera: btw, Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi is the name none of us could remember, not surprisingly . . . .
    Eliza Madrigal: I had his "creativity" for the longest time... I was interested in alternative education then, and in the idea of radical unschooling... though never brave enough to raise my kids that way :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, thanks Pema :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Sharon :)
    Pema Pera: unschooling, nice term!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi all :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes, and very interesting people out on the edges there... quite a movement
    Eden Haiku: Hi!
    Eliza Madrigal: I kept what I learned with them, but Hm.. balanced it a bit I guess :)
    Eden Haiku: I forgot the details of his theory of the flow but I can still recognize it when I feel it.
    Eliza Madrigal listens
    Eden Haiku: Well...
    Eden Haiku: When everything seems to fall in place, like dancing with a group of African people? Like in a rave. A synchronizing.
    Eden Haiku: A feeling of being part of a bigger picture.
    Eden Haiku: A unity. A friend of mine used a word for that: sentiny I think. Will look it up...
    SophiaSharon Larnia: like Calvino was saying earlier today, you can feel it when it happens, and when you are out of sync
    Eden Haiku: Yes, both, that is true.
    Pema Pera: it seems similar to the idea of being "natural" in Taoism
    Pema Pera: responding to the situation in the most natural way, without doing/forcing, wu-wei
    Eden Haiku: Yes, natural.
    Pema Pera: and it is interesting that "natural" is translated into a term indicating motion
    Pema Pera: like not getting stuck in any particular situation or pattern
    Eliza Madrigal: then aren't there times when out of sync turns out to have been in in sync really... like a skipped heart beat... jazz
    SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles
    Pema Pera: yes, many layers . . . .
    Calvino Rabeni: Suddenly the beat changes that defines in sync a new way
    Eliza Madrigal: or mosaics where if you back up enough you can see...
    Fox joined us, with a friend, Niti.
    Fox Monacular: hi everyone
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Fox :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Fox
    Fox Monacular: i brought a friend today
    Eden Haiku: Yes, like typos that we find significant here ;-)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hm, but the point about motion is a wonderful one... ebbs and flows...
    Pema Pera: Hi again Fox!
    Eliza Madrigal: yes! :))
    Pema Pera: and hi Niti!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Niti
    Eden Haiku: Hello Fox!
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Niti, Nice to meet you :)
    Eden Haiku: Hi Niti!
    Niti Oller: Hi everyone
    Fox Monacular: she's my RL childhood friend
    Eden Haiku: Onigokko Niti...
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, how nice! :)
    Fox Monacular: ok ok, just a sec:)
    Pema Pera: Niti, we get together a few times a day to chat about the nature of reality, and everything else, and we have a wiki http://playasbeing.wik.is/ -- We record our conversations there. Do you mind being included in our blogs?
    Fox Monacular: I told her a lot about PaB:)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Niti Oller: Sure
    Pema Pera: thank you Fox!
    Fox Monacular: it's her first time in SL
    Pema Pera: wow, welcome Niti!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes, welcome to SL, ) days old :))
    Fox Monacular: and she's wearing onigokko too :)
    Eliza Madrigal giggles... looks like you covered all the important things, Fox :)
    Pema Pera: it's quite an experience to jump in, I well remember my first entry into SL -- but that was without onigokko!
    Fox Monacular: yes:)
    Fox then set us all in motion . . .
    Fox Monacular: onigokko
    SophiaSharon Larnia: giggles
    Eliza Madrigal laughs
    SophiaSharon Larnia: stop
    Niti Oller: I have no idea what I am doing
    Fox Monacular: looks like I gave her a wrong onigokko
    Fox Monacular: :(
    SophiaSharon Larnia: its okay Niti :)
    Pema Pera: this is called "flow" Niti :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :) and so it goes...
    Eliza Madrigal: (brb)
    Niti Oller: I am wearing two onigokkos now and experience no consequenciiies..
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hahaha
    Fox Monacular: onigokko
    Eden Haiku: The word I was looking for is rather 'syntony', makes more sense...To describe this sensation of unity and of flow
    SophiaSharon Larnia: stop
    SophiaSharon Larnia: laugh dont know why i did that
    Eden Haiku: See, I missed it. Was out of syntony
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Fox Monacular: :)
    Niti Oller: hahaha
    Niti Oller: thanks!
    Eden Haiku: Cause I wanted my skirt back and lost my onigokko that way ;-)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: ah that happened to me before
    Calvino Rabeni: Oh my
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i attached it to another point and made it invisble
    Fox Monacular: I lost my skirt to onigokko... and still haven't recovered it
    SophiaSharon Larnia: O.O
    Eliza Madrigal: Syntony... definitely a new word. Nice :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: looks up syntony
    Eliza Madrigal: Ooohh .. need the eye one.
    Eden Haiku: Not too sure of the spelling...
    Eden Haiku: My friend could very welll have created it also. She did that a lot ;-)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Niti is still a vapor
    Eden Haiku: I have the eye one too. If it prevents me from loosing my skirt, I will that one!
    Eliza Madrigal: But unity and flow... so motion and stillness maybe... or.. How would you describe it further Eden?
    From onigokko to rhythms.
    Eden Haiku: Rythms. My friend was a dancer and she taught rythms.
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah :)
    Eden Haiku: And stillness was one of them.
    Eden Haiku: Strong and flowing.
    Calvino Rabeni: 5 rhythms ?
    Eden Haiku: Staccato.
    Eden Haiku: Chaos.
    Eden Haiku: Light and Lyrical
    Eden Haiku: And stillness,
    Eliza Madrigal smiles
    Eden Haiku: She is very famous. Taught to hundreds of people.
    Fox Monacular: Be right back - I have to change computers
    Eden Haiku: Oh oh...
    SophiaSharon Larnia: ok Fox
    Eden Haiku: I spoke French all day...
    Niti Oller: does everyone see me as a vapor? is it my connection or part of some special second life evolution process?
    Eliza Madrigal: haahah
    Niti Oller: I actually prefer vapor to this default character I was given :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: well, now that you mention it Niti, yes, I do
    Eliza Madrigal: No, it happens occasionally though
    Calvino Rabeni: I see a vapor.
    Pema Pera: yes, vapor for me too, I'm afraid, amidst the snow flakes . . . mist I would call it
    Eliza Madrigal: maybe right click and 'edit appearance'... might help
    SophiaSharon Larnia: being 0 days old, i wasnt going to mention it, it the person behind the avi, after all
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Fox Monacular: Niti still looks like a cloud to me
    Niti Oller: I like being a cloud
    Eliza Madrigal: i pass through the pores of the oceans and shores..
    SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles
    Eliza Madrigal: (from Shelley's "The Cloud")
    Eliza Madrigal: Niti, you're quite cute!
    As the main host of the session, I wanted to give Niti a chance to ask questions about our group.
    Pema Pera: Niti,did Fox give you some sense of what we are interested here, besides running around in circles sometimes? (which reminds me of a great saying by Calvino recently: "When in danger, or in doubt - run in circles, scream,and shout!" :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Pema Pera: and oh, you're no longer a cloud, Niti, for me at least!
    Niti Oller: Pema, yes, Liza told me everything :) Several times.
    Pema Pera: everything, wow!!!
    Niti Oller: I guess I passed the test
    Fox Monacular: hhmmmmm, Fox you mean
    Pema Pera is eager to hear everything himself :)
    Niti Oller: Oh, sorry
    Fox Monacular: don't blow my cover :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eden Haiku: You did Niti! ;-)
    Pema Pera: (I will edit it from the chat log, Fox)
    Pema Pera: (before I post it)
    Fox Monacular: no no, it's ok:)
    Niti Oller: I am tired, sorry Fox :)
    Eliza Madrigal approves of the name ;-)
    Pema Pera: did you try to do some 9-second breaks, Niti?
    Eden Haiku: I chose the ame avatar when I came into SL Niti. People will satrt bugging you about beacoming more feminine...
    Eden Haiku: I think it is a male avatar. I liked the long flowinh hair and I kept it for a few weeks despite every advice on my road...
    Pema Pera: :)
    Niti Oller: 9-second breaks?I think I have only been here for 10 minutes...
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eden Haiku: ;-)
    Fox Monacular: :)
    Pema Pera: ah, then there is something that Fox may not yet have told you :-)
    Fox Monacular: see, I didn't tell her quite everything
    Niti Oller: :)
    Pema Pera: we gather here four times a day in Second Life (SL)
    Niti Oller: It felt like everything
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Pema Pera: but one thing that connects us is that in RL (Real Life) we like to take 9-second breaks, four times an hour, roughly
    Pema Pera: or whenever we feel like
    Pema Pera: the idea is to spend only 99% of your time running around, and leave 1% of your time for a kind of micro-meditations
    Niti Oller: Oh, yes - I learned about the breaks :) did not realize they were 9 second long...
    Pema Pera: if that makes any sense :-)
    Niti Oller: this is a nice idea
    Pema Pera: that's like a joke -- 9 seconds out of every 15 minutes (= 900seconds)
    Pema Pera: and oh, here in SL we take superlong breaks: all of 90 seconds, every 15 minutes
    Eden Haiku: ∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑∑And here, at the meetings, we break for a bit more: 90 seconds, when the bell rings.
    Niti Oller: makes a lot of sense to me
    Pema Pera: they only initial suggestion we give, of what to do during the 9 seconds (or 90 seconds): drop what you have to see what you are
    Niti Oller: did you observe some interesting effects of such breaks?
    Pema Pera: everybody has different responses
    Fox Monacular: that's what we gather here to discuss:)
    Pema Pera: all interesting, all rather different
    rather than describing more, it seemed like a good idea to just try it out.
    Pema Pera: shall we all take a 9 second break, including you, Niti? We can then compare notes, right away -- no reason to wait!
    Niti Oller: sure :)
    Fox Monacular: ready
    Pema Pera: go!
    Pema Pera: anybody interested in sharing their experiences?
    Niti Oller: Possible cause : too many images in memory
    SophiaSharon Larnia: your suggestion fell right upon the song Auld Lang Syne, its a wonderful life is on tv
    Niti Oller: :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: it filtered in
    Niti Oller: many that is why my framerate is also very low
    Eden Haiku: I realized I am not the same as the who I was this morning.
    Fox Monacular: during the 9 sec I realized I had an intrusive song in my head ... it's been there for a while, and I just noticed it!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: ah
    Eden Haiku: Which song? :-)
    Fox Monacular: you
    Fox Monacular: your mother should know
    Fox Monacular: (sorry about you, finger slipped on Enter)
    Pema Pera: I first dropped my (identification with my) SL presence, then my (identification with my) RL presence, then my (identification with my) world around me, then I wondered about the observer that seemed to be left, in a world of sheer appearance.
    Eden Haiku: Many layers...
    Pema Pera: like steeming postage stamps from an envelope
    Eden Haiku: The witness?
    Pema Pera: perhaps :-)
    Eden Haiku: The oversoul as in the World of Urantia?
    Eliza Madrigal: hmm ... quite a 9 seconds... can experience or see/unsee so much in a blink
    Eden Haiku: I had an experince similar to that in a Shiva temple.
    Eden Haiku: Reciting the Rudram
    Pema Pera: yes, so much can happen in a blink -- and then 9 seconds can seem so very long!
    Eden Haiku: A prayer for all beings
    Eden Haiku: Then realizing there was just one Being.
    Pema Pera: praying is a could way to loosen identifications
    Pema Pera: *good way
    Calvino Rabeni: It can seem long like - sitting on an ant hill, or ling like eternity
    Eden Haiku: And could way too ;-)
    Calvino Rabeni: long like eternity
    Pema Pera: haha, yes
    Fox Monacular: it's interesting: my life's so chaotic right now, that I welcome the 9 sec breaks but also I'm intimidated by them
    Eliza Madrigal: intimidated?
    Pema Pera: in what way, Fox?
    Fox shared a very important aspect of dealing with glimpses.
    Fox Monacular: like I get a glimpse of something that I know I cannot explore quite yet
    Fox Monacular: often simply because of time constraints
    Pema Pera: glimpses are our guides
    Fox Monacular: but also because I am not ready yet
    Fox Monacular: I recognize it when someone speaks of it, but am hesitant to go there myself
    SophiaSharon Larnia: nods
    Calvino Rabeni: short of going out the door, i can open the window and let in fresh air
    Eliza Madrigal: Calvino, Hm, yes :)
    Fox Monacular: yes, I do that too:)
    Calvino Rabeni: 9 second ventilation fore a refreshing feeling
    Calvino Rabeni: too bad I can't can it
    Pema Pera: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: $$
    Fox Monacular: instant enlightenment
    SophiaSharon Larnia: its free
    Pema Pera: its here
    SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles widely
    Eliza Madrigal: It is a really interesting observation though, Fox . I wonder how many feel that way...
    Pema Pera: alas, have to go to lunch now
    Pema Pera: great seeing y'all !
    Fox Monacular: I don't feel thi way all the time though
    Calvino Rabeni: saved by the bell
    Eliza Madrigal: Good Day Pema :)
    Pema Pera: bfn
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Pema
    Calvino Rabeni: bye, Pema
    Fox Monacular: take care Pema
    Pema Pera: and welcome to SL and Play as Being, Niti!
    Eden Haiku: Bye Pema, always nice to meet you!
    Since I left at this point, I didn't comment on the remainder of the session; it would be a more than two-hour meeting, it turned out!
    Niti Oller: IT is strange - being in SL you put on some mask on your face and give it a name... and here you discuss experiences that may be very intimate.. something contradicts. For instance, I was experiencing my anxienty feeling of being among people I don't know and I was amazed that it happens the same way in SL. but it is strange to talk about it :)
    Niti Oller: Bye Pema, thanks!
    Eliza Madrigal: Niti, I agree... it IS strange...
    Eden Haiku: I will have to go also. Take care. And a warm welcome to you Niti! And Fox, soon in RL...;-)
    Eliza Madrigal: but really wonderful strange
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes bu from what i understand, very common, others have talked about that
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Eden :) Nice to see you
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Bye Eden
    Fox Monacular: bye Eden see you around
    Niti Oller: Bye Eden!
    Eliza Madrigal: Sl can concentrate us, in a way... distill? Cut through time even, in a way... so that we get to essentials quicker?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: nods
    Fox Monacular: you know, I dreamed a couple of nights ago of a RL meeting where people had their names floating over their heads
    Eliza Madrigal: And yet then after a while the surface things and details are in play, too... but somehow from a diff view...
    Eliza Madrigal: hah, Oh that's great, Fox!
    Calvino Rabeni: I have a question for you experienced PAB members
    SophiaSharon Larnia looks around
    Eliza Madrigal giggles
    Niti Oller: No wonder, Fox :)
    Eliza Madrigal will give it a go Calvino but not one of the beginning group :)
    Fox Monacular: YSEBS
    Fox Monacular: You Seeing Experienced Being Seeing
    Calvino Rabeni: when I started here there was an idea of taking notes on the experience. And I started to do that but intermittently. Like you say, a lot of details com into play. Do you take notes or anything?
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, sometimes I do. Eden write haikus after the 9 seconds
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i did at the beginning, started yet another blog, just for that...as time went by harder to express in words instead of the other way around. I think this is related to rl isssues atm.
    Fox Monacular: I do sometimes too... just to focus myself
    Eliza Madrigal: The thing about me, is that I write... a lot. So... if I take notes after each pause, I might not do anything else... just keep writing :)
    Fox Monacular: :)
    Fox Monacular: that's why I don't keep a dream diary
    Eliza Madrigal: So, generally... I write a few entries in a private blog every day... and log interesting dreams there too :)
    Calvino Rabeni: I find it raises many questions, so I might write them down, mainly to clear them from my immediate attention
    Fox Monacular: do you have a sense of how your practice evolved over time from your notes, Eliza?
    Eliza Madrigal: yes definitely
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes, i am the same, however not as dicsiplined as I would like
    Eliza Madrigal: I can see very clear shifts
    Eliza Madrigal: and less rambling now :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: and then forget the questions which is like learning all over again
    Fox Monacular: do these correlate with RL shifts by any chance?
    Eliza Madrigal: absolutely... even physically, Fox
    Eliza Madrigal: bodily, I should say... breath quality, etc
    Eliza Madrigal: True, Sharon... sometimes we can write questions and they seem to come into play to answer themselves... hehe
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes
    Eliza Madrigal: like just writing them is enough
    Eliza Madrigal: Fox, why do you ask?
    Fox Monacular: just curious... I also used to have a number of different log-type notebooks
    Fox Monacular: but at some point I decided to throw them all away and start anew
    Eliza Madrigal: The funny thing is I've always written... but don't keep notebooks offline... because I did that too!
    Calvino Rabeni: Sophia, I think for ephemeral things like states of mind, learning over again is better
    Eliza Madrigal: threw everything out
    Fox Monacular: I don't know if I regret it (not yet), but it coincided with giving birth and moving
    Fox Monacular: like a new chapter
    Fox Monacular: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, yes I think that's important
    Eliza Madrigal: In fact... a strange dream once... I could feel myself handing over a yellow spiral to a panel of some sort... in 'heaven'...
    Eliza Madrigal: it was really full... lots of writing and big life changes... letting it go
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes Calvino, looking at it, you can see you've started from a different point of view, based on experiences
    Fox Monacular: a spiral of experiences?
    Calvino Rabeni: In early days of journaling I tried to capture the experience,but id didn't work as well as just creating them again
    Eliza Madrigal: more just begging... at the time it was a lot of asking god things :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I was about 19
    Calvino Rabeni: They couldn't really be captured
    Fox Monacular: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Right... it is an interesting shift too, when we aren't writing to capture... Hmmm
    Eliza Madrigal: not to keep
    Fox Monacular: sorry everyone, have to go put baby to sleep
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Fox :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :) So nice to see you for a bit Fox
    Fox Monacular: same here:)
    Calvino Rabeni: Bring the baby some time :)
    Fox Monacular: I can't come here too often these days.... too busy:(
    Eliza Madrigal: yes I certainly understand!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: grins
    Eliza Madrigal: But you are missed :)
    Fox Monacular: well, she thinks it's a really boring cartoon
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hahaha
    Eliza Madrigal giggles
    Niti Oller: bye-bye Fox
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye!!
    Fox Monacular: thank you all, welcome to SL Niti :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I have been trying to take notes for apapb... but truly... these excercizes have become so a part of everything/me, I guess.... that it can be tricky...
    Eliza Madrigal: I often can't tell the diff. between apapb and ysbs
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hmm
    Eliza Madrigal: and that's quite new, actually...
    Calvino Rabeni: what is apapb - new to me
    Eliza Madrigal: like it takes me over, rather than my instigating
    Eliza Madrigal: appreciating the presence of appearances as a presentation of/by Being...
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Appreciate the presence of appearance as a presentation by Being
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: This helps with the phenom, too, Cal...
    Calvino Rabeni: I understand, thanks.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: appreciating.... you seeing, being seeing hmmmm
    Eliza Madrigal: Being presenting... and appreciating, unfolding "everything" given...
    Calvino Rabeni: Is there a glossary somewhere ? :)
    Eliza Madrigal: So it is lately like I am walking along and Being Seeing 'activates' apapb... sound odd?
    Eliza Madrigal: Hm...there are some pointers...
    Eliza Madrigal: full glossary would be helpful ! :)
    Eliza Madrigal: But let me make sure... one sec...
    SophiaSharon Larnia: entering that acronym in the wiki will bring up a lot of pages
    Calvino Rabeni: Another PAB community project :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: no does not sound odd Eliza grins
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Thanks, Sharon
    Calvino Rabeni: I am interested in another angle on it
    Eliza Madrigal: http://playasbeing.wik.is/Informatio...sked_Questions
    Calvino Rabeni: WHich is seeing reality as person - as Thou rather than It.
    Calvino Rabeni: Do you think this line of inquiry could be compatible with PAB?
    Eliza Madrigal: This actually does have a little glossary, but not long definitions or background
    Calvino Rabeni: Because I realize it brings in some religious sensibilities
    Eliza Madrigal: Hm..interesting question Cal
    Calvino Rabeni: And wonder if it can be addressed outside the religious frameworks
    Eliza Madrigal: Well, let's see....
    Calvino Rabeni: This comes form a conversation earlier with a RL friend
    Eliza Madrigal: Dropping religious frameworks, Being does surprise... definitely like a person
    SophiaSharon Larnia: interesting, i dont see being as thou, but as a something i am a piece of, only seperated by an ego
    SophiaSharon Larnia: in theory, it is what i feel
    Eliza Madrigal: well, we relate to one another as beings...
    Calvino Rabeni: Maybe that is because you haven't tried it. Not a suggestion, by the way. I think that is true for me.
    Eliza Madrigal: with faces.. expressions...
    Calvino Rabeni: It does seem natural for humans
    SophiaSharon Larnia: have not tried what, seeing being as something different than myself?
    Calvino Rabeni: Seeing as person looking back at you
    Calvino Rabeni: rather than as it.
    Eliza Madrigal: Knowing as face-to-face
    Calvino Rabeni: Subjectivity over there, not "in here"
    Eliza Madrigal: I think the biggest surprise on the little retreat was that Being seemed to be like a person who wanted far more for me than I could want for myself....
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: and yet the word god would be limiting
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i think that is what I saw most of my life
    Eliza Madrigal listens
    Calvino Rabeni: I think you understand my point, Eliza
    SophiaSharon Larnia: has to go, bye all :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Bye Sharon
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye sharon - C U again!
    Eliza Madrigal: I'm not sure Calvino
    Eliza Madrigal: It seems one way to relate and why not...
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, why not.
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Givn my scientific background, perhaps an excursion into Deism might not be a bad thing
    Calvino Rabeni: Or perhaps, a pheno version of that
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, flexibility you mean? Stretching?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes indeed
    Eliza Madrigal: I've enjoyed the Hindu imagery of lila.... of Being dancing the world into existence through beings...
    Eliza Madrigal: in a way...
    Eliza Madrigal: and as you know I think, in Buddhism images...with faces and personalities...
    Eliza Madrigal: that one can connect with, relate to, mingle with, in a sense...
    Eliza Madrigal: so seems natural... yet yes tricky not to attach particular identities to people... 'father' 'mother' 'teacher', etc
    Eliza Madrigal: but roles can be doorways too :)
    Calvino Rabeni: archetypes not icons
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: icons can be reminders I think though
    Eliza Madrigal: agree
    Calvino Rabeni: Lila is play
    Eliza Madrigal: yes :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I was talking with someone about Indra's net here yesterday... and combined with that holographic kind of sense of resonating from all/one.... lila is a powerful idea
    Eliza Madrigal: an expansive one...
    Eliza Madrigal: Yet, still not quite as radical
    Eliza Madrigal: as I think we scratch sometimes :) What do you think?
    Calvino Rabeni: Scratch, as in touching themes of seeing being?
    Eliza Madrigal: yes :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Starting from the end
    Calvino Rabeni: I don't have a very radical feeling - I just reach out from where I already am.
    Calvino Rabeni: Path as goal is a related idea
    Eliza Madrigal nods... for me it is related to glimpses
    Calvino Rabeni: There is always an edge, a horizon
    Calvino Rabeni: I know what is there, partly seen
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes glimpses
    Eliza Madrigal: In appreciating the glimpses there is a peace... so finding glimpses in everything... yes.. seems unfolding edges somehow..
    Eliza Madrigal: finding peace in everything
    Eliza Madrigal: which is really just us
    Calvino Rabeni: Can you speak about the edges, like, specifically?
    Calvino Rabeni: As in, here's one, there is another, this is what it looks like.
    Eliza Madrigal: That's part of what I'm learning to do here...
    Eliza Madrigal: Like...
    Calvino Rabeni: It is very interesting to be around people who will do that
    Eliza Madrigal: noticing someone in a store... and not turning away... and really seeing them until you see layers of expression....
    Calvino Rabeni: I know that one
    Eliza Madrigal: and dynamics of instances....
    Eliza Madrigal: and dwelling until you feel like you've gone on a journey with them...
    Calvino Rabeni: mmhmm
    Eliza Madrigal: so maybe you talk with them about something simple...
    Eliza Madrigal: but you hear so much more...
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    Eliza Madrigal: eggs and potatoes are and are not eggs and potatoes...hehe
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: And even there still so surface level...
    Eliza Madrigal: So yes definitely something I'd like to learn to relax into more...
    Eliza Madrigal: Your turn!
    Calvino Rabeni: heh
    Eliza Madrigal smiles
    Calvino Rabeni: OK, one thing - an edge -
    Calvino Rabeni: an idea toward it is looking at the word "happiness"
    Calvino Rabeni: which comes from "hap" for luck, chance, fortune, happenstance
    Calvino Rabeni: And - I got this idea from a story I heard recently
    Calvino Rabeni: what is a superficial ide
    Calvino Rabeni: I mean - it is contingent
    Calvino Rabeni: but something else as a possibility would be joy - which is not contingent
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: as an experience to have regardless of what happens
    Calvino Rabeni: so it gets into the word faith. And I have no religious background of that
    Calvino Rabeni: but as a creative act, perhaps one can go in that direction
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, I like linking faith and creativity, a lot!
    Calvino Rabeni: when people say faith, sometimes it lacks the creative aspect
    Eliza Madrigal: a leap!
    Calvino Rabeni: then it is just like, a placeholder until something "really true" comes along
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, listening closely
    Calvino Rabeni: But the creative aspect of it happens anytime and is not conditioned on happenings
    Calvino Rabeni: but at some level seems like a combination choice and attention
    Calvino Rabeni: in that it can be influenced by will
    Calvino Rabeni: All very subtle words and often used differently
    Eliza Madrigal: Hm, subtle will?
    Eliza Madrigal: attention...ah, okay
    Calvino Rabeni: as an idea it seems subtle, but yes, there may also be subtle will i suppose
    Eliza Madrigal: as in "I will attend"
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes like that
    Calvino Rabeni: an element of the epoche, perhaps
    Calvino Rabeni: but maybe more active
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi again niti :)
    Niti Oller: Bye everyone(who's left). It was nice to meet you all. I'll come by again some time!
    Eliza Madrigal: Great Niti, pleasure meeting you :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye, see you again perhaps!
    Calvino Rabeni: Eliza, it has been a great discussion but I also must go - dinner calls me.
    Eliza Madrigal: what I'm hearing you say is that joy presents itself...
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, okay. :) Night Calvino
    Calvino Rabeni: I feel we are onto a good understanding.
    Calvino Rabeni: Talk to you again :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Midnight here and I'm wide awake :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes, talk soon
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye
    Calvino Rabeni: BFN.
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