2009.12.13 19:00 - Fish in Water

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    The Guardian for this meeting was stevenaia Michinaga. The comments are by stevenaia Michinaga.

    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Arch

    Archmage Atlantis: Hi, Calvino.......Hello, Stevenaia

    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Cal

    Calvino Rabeni: Good evening, Arch and Steve


    Archmage Atlantis: There is always unrest in the world, there are always things happening that are unpleasant.....yet when i open myself up.... and hear what my younger friends are saying.....I have the sense that this is a time of great change......there is probably a syndrome name for that somewhere *grin*

    stevenaia Michinaga: Seems that is the perpetual state of humanity in the world, perhaps that is the name of it?

    Archmage Atlantis: That is probably it Steve, just getting older and becoming more aware of it as time gets shorter

    stevenaia Michinaga: or you notice it more now

    stevenaia Michinaga: it does not diminish any good work we all do as individuals

    Archmage Atlantis: No, that is true

    stevenaia Michinaga: :)

    stevenaia Michinaga: but I am an optimist

    Archmage Atlantis: I am also influenced by the weekends as the majority of SL meetings I attend cluster to the weekends


    stevenaia Michinaga: what themes have you seen at the PaB meetings this weekend?

    Calvino Rabeni: AA, perhaps the term you were going for later is fin de siecle

    Archmage Atlantis: I attended a meeting, this week's topic was "greifing" - it was not a PaB meeting, but one usually that is thoughtful and respectful

    Calvino Rabeni: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fin_de_si%C3%A8cle  

    Archmage Atlantis: I will look at the article Cal

    Calvino Rabeni: Where was that, Arch?

    Archmage Atlantis: A woman showed up, who had never been there before

    Archmage Atlantis: She seemed sincerely concerned about the displays of Nazi groups in Europe, I believe she was French

    Archmage Atlantis: Anyway, the group was respectful, but she was so disturbed she did not hear the concern

    Archmage Atlantis: Finally she began to communicate only in French

    Archmage Atlantis: Someone there translated.......A lot of name calling

    Archmage Atlantis: by her in French

    Archmage Atlantis: First time that has ever happened to me in SL

    stevenaia Michinaga: name calling? what was this group?

    stevenaia Michinaga: I sometimes think about those who diminish others to think more of themselves

    Archmage Atlantis: Cal, Fin de siècle is what I feel...not what logic tells me

    Archmage Atlantis: Thinkers

    Archmage Atlantis: Usually a place of polite discussion and debate

    stevenaia Michinaga: sounds nice, I think I was a member long time ago

    Archmage Atlantis: I normally enjoy it

    stevenaia Michinaga: are you saying it got personal in the discussion?

    Archmage Atlantis: Well, actually, I enjoyed this....it gave me new things to think about

    Calvino Rabeni: I appreciate the number of groups that make an effort to be moderated, and the facilitators who watch over them.

    stevenaia Michinaga: do you attend other groups Cal?

    Calvino Rabeni: Arch, when feeling and logic don't seem to go together, what are we to make of it?

    Calvino Rabeni: I sample, steve, but don't participate much

    Archmage Atlantis: If I were to sum up the woman's point, to me it would be, "can't you see what is happening, you say you are philosophers, why do you sit and talk, why do you not act?" - But she did not actually say that, that was the best I could get out of her rant

    stevenaia Michinaga: act? what was her expectation, do you think?

    Calvino Rabeni: AA, my impression is you're pretty active in SL and attend a variety of groups

    Archmage Atlantis: I asked exactly that question......she paid no attention.

    Calvino Rabeni: My guess is - when people are scared - as nearly any thinking human would be - they often feel somehow it might help to lash out at others, to stir things up

    Archmage Atlantis: Cal, I am home bound with a disability, I have not living family.....SL is an outlet for me......plus I find a lot of interesting people here


    Calvino Rabeni: I know that about you, Arch. You are a contributor to the SL world and I find it admirable.

    Archmage Atlantis: When I picked my av back in 2006, it was because of an article, in Time Magazine, that said universities and major corporations would be exploring it as a vehicle for meetings and classes

    Archmage Atlantis: That is only now really happening, with U Texas making the only major commitment

    Archmage Atlantis: Still, this feels like a new method to create a truly global community

    Calvino Rabeni: I sampled it in 2007, with a similar idea.

    stevenaia Michinaga: There are others, I know one of our guardians is working with one or more universities designing campuses For SL, and Penn State Univ. has a campus, I'm sure there are others, but not sure what they do there

    Calvino Rabeni: It will take off at some point, due to technical and social factors

    Archmage Atlantis: ThreeDee's firm is exploring OpenSim as an alternative, less cost more local control........there is a place for both

    Calvino Rabeni: People generally underestimate the amount of time required

    stevenaia Michinaga: over 100 search results in "University"

    Calvino Rabeni: At some point I hope to broach the topic of "community" in the Kira context.

    Calvino Rabeni: Do you have specific ideas Archmage, about "global community"?

    Archmage Atlantis: That would be a good thing to do, Cal, in my opinion

    Calvino Rabeni: It feels premature, but I am gathering energy on it

    Archmage Atlantis: That is a difficult question, Cal. - There are vague thoughts, but no specific ideas

    Calvino Rabeni: It is difficult. Many difficult things start out like a vague fog.

    Archmage Atlantis: Well one, but I have already done that......

    Calvino Rabeni: What is that?

    Archmage Atlantis: The Library at Alexandria Novus.......It was an idea I funded until my money ran out...ThreeDee was kind enough to take it on as a project

    Archmage Atlantis: Let me rummage for some writings and correspondence

    Calvino Rabeni: I will be interested to learn more about these initiatives.

    Calvino Rabeni: Paradise arrives :)

    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Paradise

    Paradise Tennant: hello steve ..cal .. arch :) gtsy :)

    Archmage Atlantis: Hello Paradise

    Paradise Tennant: sorry to interrupt your flow of discussion please continue :)

    Archmage Atlantis: This is the writing on the face of the tablet at the entrance to the library


    Archmage Atlantis:


    Alexandria Novus Statement Of Purpose Of “ The New Library of Alexandria in SL


    The ancient Library of Alexandria (~300 BC - early AD) was charged with collecting all written human knowledge. Its destruction was a severe loss to the perpetuation of that knowledge, and to the advancement of human understanding. Now, humanity's store of wisdom and knowledge exists in numerous forms--books, art, music, and especially electronic media. This wealth could easily disappear, again causing a serious loss to civilization, unless measures are taken to preserve the availability of these materials in accessible forms for all time to come. While no longer accomplishable under one roof, current and future technology must be used to insure its continuous existence. The purpose of this Alexandria Novus project, The New Library of Alexandria, is to provide a focal point and gathering place where participants can come together to develop and carry out plans that will accomplish the goal of continuous preservation, propagation, and growth of the recorded record of the fruits of human intellect.



    Calvino Rabeni: We were having a fish-in-water talk, Paradise, about the idea of community

    Calvino Rabeni: AA, when you were funding, what was your motivation?

    Archmage Atlantis: Never heard the phrase "disability", what is it's implication.

    Paradise Tennant: :)

    Calvino Rabeni: The saying is - "the fish will be the last to discover water"

    Paradise Tennant: yes

    Paradise Tennant: what we are closest too .. we do not see

    Calvino Rabeni: which contrasts with "fish out of water" which no doubt is pretty evident to the poor fish

    Calvino Rabeni: community is such a topic

    Archmage Atlantis: This sounds a bit odd, but it came to me in a "vision" - I had been dealing with the impact of my disability after a career as a biz exec

    Paradise Tennant: a striking metaphor really

    Calvino Rabeni: Yes

    Archmage Atlantis: Thank you, I like that

    Paradise Tennant: we presume the benefits of community ... we minimize them ..to the point of not noticing yet we cannot exist without community

    Archmage Atlantis: I shall file it for future use *smile*

    Calvino Rabeni: And the ways we are constituted by community

    Calvino Rabeni: And the way things change in the world seems to happen on that level

    Calvino Rabeni: making it rather mysterious

    Calvino Rabeni: I notice the rich and nuanced vocabularies that are in play, for the experienced sense of what happens "within" the individual

    Archmage Atlantis: And dangerous, when one with destructive motives imitates the appearance of community

    Calvino Rabeni: compared to the extremely sparse language supporting thinking about the sense of community

    Paradise Tennant: yes often think of it as a totality .. the mingled .. actions of millions that impact on every moment

    Calvino Rabeni: As a thinking project it starts at a disadvantage

    Paradise Tennant: *our

    stevenaia Michinaga: hello Maggie

    Paradise Tennant: hiya maggie

    Archmage Atlantis: Greetings Maggie

    Magdalena Colclough: hi all :)

    Calvino Rabeni: Dangerous when people have lack of awareness and discrimination

    Calvino Rabeni: THen they can be manipulated

    Calvino Rabeni: AA, is there a landmark for Alexandria in SL, that you can recommend?

    Archmage Atlantis: Agree Cal, perhaps that is a starting point in a thinking project, what happens if there is a lack of awareness and discrimination

    Calvino Rabeni: Sure, arch, there are so many workable starting points

    Calvino Rabeni: In keeping with the themes of PAB, ones with an experiential flavor might be compatible

    Archmage Atlantis: It no longer exists in SL, ThreeDee has stated he will place it on an OpenSim

    Calvino Rabeni: I see, TY

    Archmage Atlantis: Let me share the conclusion of my involvement, rummages again

    Calvino Rabeni: Is there a web page for the project?

    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, places need land here and land costs Lindens

    Calvino Rabeni: THanks

    Calvino Rabeni: I got into OpenSim the other day - it seems workable

    Calvino Rabeni: But lonely :)

    stevenaia Michinaga: yes, it;'s not interconnected

    Paradise Tennant: yes not many peeps

    Paradise Tennant: :) very lonely

    Archmage Atlantis:


    Subject: New Library information


    I have found a solution for continuing Alexandria Novus by linking
    it to a larger project, without any additional cost to you.
    I start with the summary. My company 3DE, will provide a free
    Estate/ Island as as OpenSim to the Alliance Library System. They
    will house a number of exhibits and services, including The New
    Library of Alexandria building that is already built (which I can
    easily move from SL). The New Library Building will then serve your
    initial purpose, as well as be an outreach center for innovative
    projects and services aimed at the dissemination of information
    resources via the internet. I will remain directly involved in the
    development of the entire Estate/Island and will especially work to
    continue to promote The New Library of Alexandria concept.



    Paradise Tennant: it is ..just through wormhole thingys

    Archmage Atlantis: I like that analogy Paradise

    Calvino Rabeni: I didn't know you could transfer stuff out of SL - I thought it was stuck here.


    Archmage Atlantis: After that time, I think the policy was made more heavy handed, this is a corporation after all

    Paradise Tennant: you can only do so if you actually created the item ...not if you bought or were given it

    Archmage Atlantis: Ah, and his firm created it, so that works

    Archmage Atlantis: Anyway, that was the start of meeting so many good, intelligent people......and starting to live again

    stevenaia Michinaga: :)

    Paradise Tennant: there is software that allows you move inventory but it the sl folks find out you can be banned from sl forever !

    Paradise Tennant: *if

    Calvino Rabeni: Ah well, it won't always be that way

    Paradise Tennant: i agree it will change

    Paradise Tennant: everything changes

    Paradise Tennant: :)

    Calvino Rabeni: LL is like the AOL of its time

    Archmage Atlantis: Every corporation need real competition

    Calvino Rabeni: They may even be acquired, and then lose their value

    Archmage Atlantis: Just as open source has forced the software companies to budge, at least somewhat

    Calvino Rabeni: Three cheers for DIY (do-it-yourself) culture!

    Archmage Atlantis: :)

    Calvino Rabeni: About community - I don't see media being able to create or host community, but when there is a convergence with many RL community movements, it will go mainstream quickly

    Paradise Tennant: well LL really has a tom sawyer business model going on .. the part of Huckleberry Finn where he charged his friends to white wash the fence .. the consumers create the content here

    Archmage Atlantis: Another good analogy, Paradise

    Calvino Rabeni: Same as most of the big social sites, though.

    Paradise Tennant: yes the whole creative element in an unconstrained context quite likely the most addictive element of the experience

    Paradise Tennant: *is

    Paradise Tennant: it unleashes creativity

    Paradise Tennant: there are no physical limitation .. and very low threshold economic ones

    Archmage Atlantis: The thing that traps people is the promise of free by someone/some corporation that eventually says "gotcha" and starts to charge, swallowing their competition

    Paradise Tennant: corporations have to live to .. no corporations .. no jobs .. hungry families

    Archmage Atlantis: Even free requires personal responsibility

    Archmage Atlantis: Outide the "gothcha" setting

    Paradise Tennant: really it is balance .. that makes the system work best

    Calvino Rabeni: Balance and compartmentalization too

    Paradise Tennant: the balance that comes from choice .. provided by competition .. and where there is not heavy handed domination of any sort

    Calvino Rabeni: Have any of you tried twine.com?

    Paradise Tennant: :) never heard of it

    Calvino Rabeni: it is a semantic-web site

    Archmage Atlantis: No, I have not heard of twine.com either

    Calvino Rabeni: were that to be combined woth what SL provides, you would have an even more compelling experience

    Paradise Tennant: ok what is a semantic web site

    Calvino Rabeni: In SL you can build simulations of physical objects

    Paradise Tennant: yes

    Calvino Rabeni: which is fun, when you can have avatars there to interact with


    Calvino Rabeni: but it is a lot of work for creating complex "idea" objects here in SL

    Archmage Atlantis: Just looking at the web site, it seems like a massively integrated idea connector :)

    Calvino Rabeni: Kira and PAB get around that by creating a wiki, and using the web

    Calvino Rabeni: as many other groups do, but it is not provided by the SL environment

    Calvino Rabeni: and therefore doesn't have consistency or scaling to complexity

    Calvino Rabeni: Twine.com is about sharing *interests* and ideas, not personalities

    Calvino Rabeni: People differ - a lot are attracted to personality sharing

    Calvino Rabeni: but idea sharing is big also

    Paradise Tennant: personality sharing ?

    Calvino Rabeni: semantic web sites allow meanings to be shared

    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, like facebook - is about who you are, and the pages represent persons

    Calvino Rabeni: Mainly, of course

    Calvino Rabeni: Imagine if "Ideas" had their own "personal" pages

    Paradise Tennant: so sharing meanings is sharing your understanding of a topic or idea without it being focused on the personal

    Calvino Rabeni: Of course, they kind of do, with wikipedia, etc.

    Paradise Tennant: not egocentric

    Calvino Rabeni: Yes paradise

    Calvino Rabeni: It allows for different blending between people based on their interests

    Calvino Rabeni: BLogs are cool - kind of half way in-between

    Paradise Tennant: hmm but blogs are often very personal very ego centric

    Calvino Rabeni: and are already shifting e.g. journalism

    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, they are. They can be limited and rigid

    Paradise Tennant: and boring :)

    Calvino Rabeni: Social semantic web sites kind of blend people and ideas in a new mix.

    stevenaia Michinaga: time or me to go... thank you all for joining me, pls continue

    Calvino Rabeni: Blogs range from extremely boring to fascinating

    Archmage Atlantis: Bye Steve

    Calvino Rabeni: I love libraries too, Magdalena

    Magdalena Colclough: :)

    Calvino Rabeni: Time for me to go, thought. DInner. THanks for the chat, see you later.

    Magdalena Colclough: I have to go as well

    Magdalena Colclough: see you later

    Paradise Tennant: me too late here ..thanks everyone :)

    Calvino Rabeni: BFN

    Archmage Atlantis: Bye everybody

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