2009.12.14 01:00 - Intersubjectivity

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Tarmel Udimo. The comments are by Tarmel Udimo. I arrived a a few minutes late and then was quickly joined by Calvino and Nymf. The first point of discussion was about Nymf's Science Circle.

    Tarmel Udimo: Hey there Calvino:)
    Calvino Rabeni: Good evening / day Tarmel :)
    Tarmel Udimo: its night, 8:10pm
    Tarmel Udimo: and you?
    Tarmel Udimo: Hello Nymf, long time no see?
    Nymf Hathaway: Smiles, sure thing, hello you two :)
    Tarmel Udimo: yes a cup of tea, would you both like one?
    Nymf Hathaway: Already got one but yes... good idea :)
    Tarmel Udimo: great
    Tarmel Udimo: so how are things in the circle?
    Nymf Hathaway: Getting better and better... we have a stonehenge project coming...which will be the talk of sl after that :)
    Tarmel Udimo: ahhh sounds great - new info?
    Nymf Hathaway: Did you receive the topic notecard?
    Tarmel Udimo: no I don't think so
    Calvino Rabeni: Which circle is that, Nymf?
    Nymf Hathaway: If you enable notices you will receive those auto-mode
    Nymf Hathaway: The stonehenge one will be in feb
    Nymf Hathaway: Maggie Rae build Stonehenge RL sizes for your avatar to experience as real as possible, next to that she is busy scripting the moon and its orbit above it. JeanPierre Euler is helping her with this project and will script the sun and its alignment.
    Tarmel Udimo: wow sounds amazing
    Nymf Hathaway: She will give a lecture on ancient civilizations using the alignments of sun and moon for their builds
    Calvino Rabeni: Nymf, I went to OpenSim looking for Gaia and Q, but found open ocean.
    Calvino Rabeni: The stargate rings were there instead
    Nymf Hathaway: yes we moved to our own Grid Calvino its called Terra Nova
    Calvino Rabeni: Can they teleport back into SL or into your own Terra Nova?
    Calvino Rabeni: I will try to find it.
    Nymf Hathaway: Its not to visit from SL Calvino, LL doesn't allow that :(
    Calvino Rabeni: Ah well

    We then moved into a discussion, the concept of fate and free will...

    Nymf Hathaway: How has PaB been lately?
    Tarmel Udimo: anyone have a topic they wish to discuss?
    Tarmel Udimo: I haven't been able to come too much so I am not sure how PaB is
    Calvino Rabeni: How about you Tarmel
    Nymf Hathaway: :)
    Tarmel Udimo: well let me see, I have been thinking about life streams
    Nymf Hathaway: Tell us more....
    Calvino Rabeni: listens
    Tarmel Udimo: streams of life that we are born into
    Tarmel Udimo: that carry the previous karma of an endless life stream, that we take on, but can make choices even if limited
    Calvino Rabeni: That idea reminds me of the concept of Fate
    Nymf Hathaway: Fate... something that overcomes us :(
    Tarmel Udimo: well its is sort of fate, we are born into a specific family and bloodline
    Nymf Hathaway: Genes :)
    Tarmel Udimo: that's nothing we can do about that
    Tarmel Udimo: but rather then the karma idea that we or our personalities have individual karma, we inhabit the karma of the life stream...
    Tarmel Udimo: well its a theory i'm working on:)
    Tarmel Udimo: with no scientific proof what so ever:)
    Nymf Hathaway: No need for scientific proof... life itself proves enough on that
    Calvino Rabeni: :) I can respect that approach
    Tarmel Udimo: grins ok
    Tarmel Udimo: so what do you both believe?
    Calvino Rabeni: Fate is considered something that overcomes us, and somehow it can be converted into destiny, possibly without changing the actual life-stream
    Nymf Hathaway: But its nice to know science is helping you :) with dna etc
    Tarmel Udimo: nods
    Calvino Rabeni: Is that "limited choice" - a kind of paradox like wu-wei, where leading and following become the same activity
    Tarmel Udimo: you mean in my theory
    Tarmel Udimo: I guess it is
    Nymf Hathaway: I always wondered why... we in the west, having everything we need; safety, food, shelter and education..... can be hard to those who do not have this luxury like africa etc... we used them for slavery etc and at the same time we point them out as stupid.... thats something I cannot accept.... I think its our disability they are still where they are!
    Tarmel Udimo: hummm, that's a big one
    Nymf Hathaway: Being born in africa could have overcome us as well
    Calvino Rabeni: Very big. I remember asking people in a buddhist country about this. Sometimes the answer was "it is their karma"
    Calvino Rabeni: I have a hard time to accept that
    Nymf Hathaway: That's way too easy for me, Calvino
    Tarmel Udimo: yes I find that hard to accept. That's why i am inventing my own....
    Calvino Rabeni: A moral or ethical theory then
    Calvino Rabeni: ?
    Tarmel Udimo: well it is neither
    Tarmel Udimo: beacuse if we are randomly born into a lifestream, its not because of what we did in the past
    Calvino Rabeni: How so / not?

    (Comment: when ever 'westerners' talk about Africa - and I have to put my hand up too - we always assume it would be the worst fate on earth to be born African which shows how Eurocentric we all are regardless of race. I am sure there are a lot of happy,  hard working, wealthy Africans that do not feel the need to be European)

    We were joined by Betram and the discussion continued...

    Bertram Jacobus: hi :-)
    Nymf Hathaway: Whats your idea on that Tarmel...do we reincarnate?
    Tarmel Udimo: well I am not sure, but essentially I think birth is random
    Nymf Hathaway: Hi Bertram :)
    Tarmel Udimo: hi betram:)
    Tarmel Udimo: I use to think we reincarnated...
    Tarmel Udimo: I think the life spark lives on and gets 'reborn' but not our perosnal history etc, that becomes part of the life stream and the next spark gets born into that history and has to deal with it
    Nymf Hathaway: sounds good
    Tarmel Udimo: grins
    Nymf Hathaway: I used to believe we reincarnate as well... thought we are here to learn, evolve. But the more I see, listen and learn the more i am convinced we are not
    Bertram Jacobus: we are not ? what , please ?
    Nymf Hathaway: I now think we do not reincarnate
    Bertram Jacobus: ah. ty :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: some teachings say, it would be the "karmastream" which consists. the action-reaction pattern .
    Nymf Hathaway: Smiles, yes Tarmel was just telling us about that
    Bertram Jacobus: ah ok. sry
    Nymf Hathaway: No prob, that was before you were here :)
    Bertram Jacobus: ty again :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: normally i have to work at this time. very unusual for me to sit here now ... nice feeling ... :-)
    Nymf Hathaway: Smiles, yes those stolen moments for ones self are pretty good :)
    Tarmel Udimo: nods
    Bertram Jacobus: exactly ! :-)
    Tarmel Udimo: what about you Calvino what do you think?
    Bertram Jacobus: but tarmel ... you spoke of "random" before ... isn´t that a word which simply describes that we don´t know the coherences and such ? ...
    Tarmel Udimo: yes
    Bertram Jacobus: nice :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: (and ty for the tea) ... ;-)
    Tarmel Udimo: I am trying to suggest that we don't have individual karma, but that the 'lifestream' carries it and we just inhabit it for the brief time we as individuals are alive
    Calvino Rabeni: Thanks for asking, Tarmel. I have a scientific background and worldview but try to probe the limits of it with mythology. I don't much speculate about metaphysics.
    Tarmel Udimo: you're welcome for the tea
    Tarmel Udimo: ahh OK
    Tarmel Udimo: are there any myths that work for you?
    Nymf Hathaway: Even with a scientific background you could tell us what your view is Calvino
    Tarmel Udimo: that help in explaing what we're doing here?
    Calvino Rabeni: But it seems mataphysical theories suggest ethical consequences
    Tarmel Udimo: yes good point Nymf
    Nymf Hathaway: But yes...it all comes down to believe...so far
    Calvino Rabeni: I think we are "smart matter"
    Bertram Jacobus: do you have a common understanding of "metaphysics" ?
    Tarmel Udimo: nods, can you deconstruct
    Calvino Rabeni: Not a sophisticated one, no.
    Tarmel Udimo: smart matter
    Calvino Rabeni: I suppose I'm a monist of some kind
    Calvino Rabeni: I believe matter and consciousness are aspects of the same thing, that co-arise
    Tarmel Udimo: I agree
    Calvino Rabeni: I would give neither precedence
    Tarmel Udimo: however did one come before the other?
    Calvino Rabeni: I don't believe in reincarnation of individuals
    Tarmel Udimo: nods
    Calvino Rabeni: No I would not say either came before
    Bertram Jacobus: i don´t believe anything, mostly at least ;-)
    Calvino Rabeni: I don't believe in most philosophies of causality
    Nymf Hathaway: oke...keep the lifestream thoughts of Tarmel and ask a larger question.... what about history? Civilization rise and fall.... learn science and loose it again for ages to be rediscovered etc... life is a Karma-circle? and does this mean we are stuck?
    Tarmel Udimo: I don't think you need to believe in anything, Bertram:)
    Calvino Rabeni: I think there is too much of that going on in philosophy
    Calvino Rabeni: THings do rise and fall - I must be a bit of a Taoist
    Calvino Rabeni: I don't think they follow any external pattern
    Bertram Jacobus: my impression of being is more circled then linear indeed nymph, but i don´t hope, we are stuck, in unboundlessness - and i have the impression, we live in that - even freedom may be possible ...
    Calvino Rabeni: There is a lot of chance involved
    Tarmel Udimo: I don't know if we are stuck, I believe each age civilization uncovers something, like a new piece in the puzzle of life, which continues to evolve also, so while it appears cyclic it is also new
    Calvino Rabeni: I can go with that one too
    Tarmel Udimo: gee getting a lot of gold stars here:)
    Tarmel Udimo: just made that up but it sounded right:)
    Bertram Jacobus: :-)
    Nymf Hathaway: Smiles...the best answers fall right into us, Tarmel :)
    Calvino Rabeni: I don't believe incultural relativism or postmodernism as I think it is often construed
    Tarmel Udimo: I think you may be right, it was the energy of the group... speaking:)
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: I believe in the energy of the group
    Tarmel Udimo: hehehe
    Nymf Hathaway: Same here
    Tarmel Udimo: incultural relativism?
    Bertram Jacobus: relations, interactions ...
    Calvino Rabeni: It would be false to claim it as one's own.
    Nymf Hathaway: we influence each other
    Tarmel Udimo: yes of course

    Calvino then suggests a change in topic...

    Calvino Rabeni: May I propose a topic, that might be related to this
    Bertram Jacobus: sure
    Nymf Hathaway: please do
    Calvino Rabeni: Just to see where you might go with it
    Calvino Rabeni: the topic is "community".
    Calvino Rabeni: BUt as an experiential matter
    Bertram Jacobus: ok -
    Tarmel Udimo: ok
    Tarmel Udimo: you go calvino:)
    Calvino Rabeni: Notice the huge vocabularies we have for first person experience of "individual" phenomena
    Nymf Hathaway: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: But the sparse vocabulary for collective phenomena
    Calvino Rabeni: the sense of community, etc.
    Calvino Rabeni: It is as if science hasn't reached that point yet
    Calvino Rabeni: And nor do individuals find it easy to think about
    Nymf Hathaway: Thinking here :))
    Tarmel Udimo: well co-dependent arising is communal:)
    Bertram Jacobus: can you give me some examples please ? for the "huge vocabularies we have for first person experience of "individual" phenomena" - did not get that yet. sry -
    Calvino Rabeni: In a way, it is most of what we talk about in PAB. First person subjectivity
    Calvino Rabeni: All the PAB acronyms
    Calvino Rabeni: Phenomenology, which posits appearances to an individual
    Bertram Jacobus: ah. i see now. thx
    Calvino Rabeni: Traditions from religions - buddhism - taoism - no-mind, no-time,etc.
    Calvino Rabeni: OK
    Calvino Rabeni: And yet - "the felt sense of community" - where's the language for that?
    Calvino Rabeni: It is not well developed
    Calvino Rabeni: partly for political reasons
    Calvino Rabeni: which are considerable
    Calvino Rabeni: but there is no intrinsic reason it can't be a valid area of inquiry
    Bertram Jacobus: but i think, BOTH aspects are ok : the "individual" ones as well as the "common" ones ... - only a matter of perspective and more or less fitting in different situations ...
    Calvino Rabeni: given a good "bracketing"
    Nymf Hathaway: Maybe we did not discover the point of "experience together" yet. An English artificial intelligence professor made a device to connect his brain to a computer and asked his wife to do the same... they both told after that they never experienced to be as close as they were on that time... they could FEEL each others presence. (Sorry way to long)
    Calvino Rabeni: Dancing together with the brains
    Bertram Jacobus: i think about brainstormings ...
    Nymf Hathaway: Interesting to say the least
    Bertram Jacobus: or mass hypnosises
    Calvino Rabeni: I think there is a big unpacking job to do with community, and other topics of inter-subjectivity
    Tarmel Udimo: nods
    Bertram Jacobus: not to long nymph (!) :-) - interesting !
    Calvino Rabeni: A phenomenological approach might work just fine
    Calvino Rabeni: As long as it isn't so wedded to the idea of perception
    Tarmel Udimo: but even though we expereince things as a community, will it not always be subjective?
    Calvino Rabeni: intersubjective
    Tarmel Udimo: how would that be?
    Nymf Hathaway: Sorry to say but I need to log off :( have a great discussion I loved it every bit :)
    Calvino Rabeni: it co-arises in many people and takes its form there
    Bertram Jacobus: for me, always the question comes up : "what is it good for" - could you give me answer to that perhaps here cal ?
    Calvino Rabeni: Good to see you, Nymf
    Tarmel Udimo: see you Nymf, nice to see you again
    Nymf Hathaway: Sure was, untill later :)
    Bertram Jacobus: bye nymph - have a good time please
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye!
    Calvino Rabeni: What is what good for?
    Bertram Jacobus: the aim to research more the common experiences cal
    Calvino Rabeni: One idea is that it is a fundamental dimension of what is going on
    Calvino Rabeni: WIth out that, you have behaviorism and bare materialism
    Tarmel Udimo: you mean the unseen, unspoken interchange between humans
    Calvino Rabeni: Then on a spiritual perspective, the illusion of individuality is much tempered by looking at intersubjectivity
    Calvino Rabeni: Unseen and unspoken
    Calvino Rabeni: Yet driving us
    Bertram Jacobus: interesting ... i wrote that, because so often i feel the aim to get rid of suffering as ultimate goal .. oh tel. here ...
    Calvino Rabeni: Part of "liberation", if one wants it, is to know the invisible influences to which one is subject
    Tarmel Udimo: well I kind of agree except I have been looking at it from a personal point of view
    Calvino Rabeni: Personal is a valid perspective, but I think a partial one
    Tarmel Udimo: trying to seperate out the meaning attached to career, success etc from the actual living expereince of being alive
    Calvino Rabeni: In the ten-ox picture story from zen, the enlightened seeker goes back to the marketplace
    Tarmel Udimo: well yes it would be Ok if the whole community was operating on that level but in most cases most people are so Asleep
    Calvino Rabeni: I like to think that symbolizes joining back in with the group
    Calvino Rabeni: after exploring individual subjectivity to its limits
    Calvino Rabeni: Agree they are asleep
    Tarmel Udimo: ok back to the world but bringing that deep inner understanding with you or else what is the point
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    Tarmel Udimo: you have been in SL for a few years now
    Calvino Rabeni: "getting rid of suffering" as a goal?
    Calvino Rabeni: Oh, not very active though. I just came back for Kira activities.
    Calvino Rabeni: In a way, it reminds me of the start of the session about karma or fate
    Tarmel Udimo: yes?
    Bertram Jacobus: my impression is that your point of view is very strong in relation to the "individual / common aspect" - and i find more important to strenghten the transzendent aspect, as shown also in the ox pictures (which i love very much) ...
    Calvino Rabeni: Well, suffering is a perspective on what happens
    Calvino Rabeni: The perspective can change, without changing that which happens
    Calvino Rabeni: In a way, converting "fate" to destiny
    Bertram Jacobus: nicely said
    Calvino Rabeni: I love the ox pictures
    Tarmel Udimo: yes, now i understand your earlier statement
    Tarmel Udimo: suffering can be so subtle
    Bertram Jacobus: so the goal of liberation is not in any relative aspects i guess but more in the overcoming them all
    Calvino Rabeni: At a certain point I decided to renounce the urge for transcendence insofar as it appeared to be "escape"
    Bertram Jacobus: that is not necessairy i think
    Tarmel Udimo: understand
    Tarmel Udimo: I think the only thing we need to overcome is fear (this is what leads to suffering)
    Bertram Jacobus: so - may i ask : what is , then , your goal cal ?
    Calvino Rabeni: Stim stated something in a recent WOK meeting - we are at the same time quite limited and controlled, and swimming in freedom
    Calvino Rabeni: No goalA
    Bertram Jacobus: :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: (deep breath here)
    Calvino Rabeni: Path as goal - has that been talked about in PAB sessions before I was around?
    Tarmel Udimo: I am sure
    Bertram Jacobus: i thought the same :-)
    Tarmel Udimo: the goal-less path:)
    Bertram Jacobus: whereas - "sure" ... ;-)
    Calvino Rabeni: I didn't witness that discussion.
    Calvino Rabeni: The path doesn't go anywhere other than already here
    Bertram Jacobus: but it´s one of the "big spiritual topics"
    Bertram Jacobus: very well known, theoretically at least
    Tarmel Udimo: nods
    Calvino Rabeni: Sure, in theory :)
    Bertram Jacobus: yes ! that´s what i´m working about : to realize all the theorethical knowledge (!) ...
    Calvino Rabeni: I do kind of relate to the concept of liberation from being "asleep"
    Tarmel Udimo: good luck Bertram!
    Bertram Jacobus: or which term is correct ? working on something ?
    Tarmel Udimo: working on
    Bertram Jacobus: ty tarmel
    Tarmel Udimo: I was once this way:)
    Tarmel Udimo: but now I am grateful if I have a positive day and that's a good day:)
    Bertram Jacobus: and what is your state or path nowadays tarmel ?
    Calvino Rabeni: The intersubjective inquiry is hard, because we are partially awake, mixed very much with others less so, sharing a common lot
    Bertram Jacobus: ah. written already
    Calvino Rabeni: disturbing :)
    Tarmel Udimo: well I guess you could say I am a Buddhist
    Bertram Jacobus: ah. oh :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: Our cultural background is so influential.
    Bertram Jacobus: yes
    Tarmel Udimo: it seems to be the most intelligent
    Calvino Rabeni: In USA, there is a christian heritage.
    Tarmel Udimo: I was christened Catholic:)
    Calvino Rabeni: Even the atheists assume a basically christian outlook, and don't know it
    Tarmel Udimo: I have moved on;)
    Calvino Rabeni: I don't think getting christened can change your deep background
    Tarmel Udimo: well i was very much into a christian god when i was younger....
    Bertram Jacobus: are you sympathetic to some religion(s) cal ?
    Calvino Rabeni: Like democracy can't be "exported" to afghanistan or africa
    Calvino Rabeni: When buddhism was imported into america, it became christian
    Bertram Jacobus: may be not, but things can develop and change ...
    Calvino Rabeni: I would think, when christianity is imported into asia, it becomes buddhist
    Calvino Rabeni: I have a lot of religious sympathies
    Bertram Jacobus: yes. all in motion ...
    Bertram Jacobus: some priorities amongst them cal ? (religions)
    Calvino Rabeni: perhaps taoism
    Calvino Rabeni: followed by buddhist philosophy but not metaphysics
    Calvino Rabeni: I meant, psychology
    Bertram Jacobus: ah ! seems fitting best to the scientific views (taoism?)
    Calvino Rabeni: I guess science is a kind of religion
    Calvino Rabeni: That makes sense
    Calvino Rabeni: Things are made out of moving waves
    Bertram Jacobus: but then - what would you call "religion" ? i mean how to define that !? ;-)
    Calvino Rabeni: I'll go along with a conventional definition sometimes
    Calvino Rabeni: Meaning the set of ideas and beliefs practiced by a group of people
    Bertram Jacobus: ah. i see. very nice and clear view :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: But science also has origin myths and faith, and an all-encompassing story
    Calvino Rabeni: SO it serves as the role of a religion to people
    Calvino Rabeni: As in the sense of - a comprehensive, total belief system
    Bertram Jacobus: sure. i see how you mean that. and in this way, it´s naturally logical ;-)
    Bertram Jacobus: for me religion always has to be linked with the absolute

    Unfortunately I had to leave as it was already almost 1.75hrs into the session..

    Tarmel Udimo: hey there, I am going to have to log off, but I have claimed the log
    Calvino Rabeni: Thanks Tarmel.
    Tarmel Udimo: so pls continue talking if you wish
    Bertram Jacobus: okay tarmel. have a nice day ! :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye !
    Tarmel Udimo: yes I am starving, must have dinner:)
    Tarmel Udimo: bye for now

    And the gentlemen continued...

    Calvino Rabeni: I think I understand , Bert
    Bertram Jacobus: and metaphysics : for me only more subtile physics ...
    Calvino Rabeni: I don't have a particular belief in any Absolute
    Calvino Rabeni: But metaphysics may be subtle physics
    Bertram Jacobus: other aspects of "those areas" then are mysticisms to me ... to define some more words here ... in my understanding ... ;-)
    Calvino Rabeni: In which case it is just physics, not meta in the sense some people believe
    Calvino Rabeni: (listening)
    Bertram Jacobus: sure : the "understanding" of some words here is ofen very unsharp , sadly
    Calvino Rabeni: Unsharp words include "mysticism", "esoteric", and "emergence"
    Bertram Jacobus: that was it already : only my understanding or definition of "mysticism, metaphysics and religion" (for here and now) ;-)
    Bertram Jacobus: yes ! i agree very much cal
    Bertram Jacobus: but metaphysics as i understand it is still physics, but not researched adequate - as, for example may be (!) telepathy
    Bertram Jacobus: and, very interesting, that you write the word emergence as unsharp in normal understanding ! ... - can you say a bit more about that ?
    Calvino Rabeni: the idea of emergence - meaning the idea of properties of systems that occur, but can't be predicted or necessarily caused by other aspects of the system they occur with
    Calvino Rabeni: LIke, idea that mind emerges somehow from brain activity
    Calvino Rabeni: Or that "life" emerges somehow from chemical activity
    Bertram Jacobus: oh. i see. and that is also the basis why you don´t accept the action-reaction patterns ?
    Calvino Rabeni: Or that the aggregate properties of matter, like heat and viscosity, emerge somehow from atomic activity
    Calvino Rabeni: Does mind cause neural activity in brain? Or the other way around? Or neither?
    Calvino Rabeni: Lots of history of arguing on that
    Calvino Rabeni: I think, causality is usually a description of an oversimplified model
    Bertram Jacobus: yes ... but when i push a ball, i can say how it will react ...
    Calvino Rabeni: approximately how.
    Bertram Jacobus: yes. but at least that ;-)
    Bertram Jacobus: for daily life useful
    Calvino Rabeni: Sure, the laws of physics work pretty well for some things, and not well at all for others
    Bertram Jacobus: yes. :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: It seems part of the metaphysics of science to believe they work for everything
    Calvino Rabeni: when this is demonstrably not so, both in theory and practice
    Bertram Jacobus: which parts are they, for example , please ?
    Calvino Rabeni: Pema might have sharper ideas on this of course, as a physicist
    Calvino Rabeni: FOr instance, the mathematics of many-body behavior
    Bertram Jacobus: lol - he went promptly offline :o)
    Calvino Rabeni: Must have caught the vibration :)
    Bertram Jacobus: lol
    Calvino Rabeni: So I've heard, the model of two balls colliding, is determined by the mathematics
    Calvino Rabeni: As an approximation of course, given that the matter is not really solid
    Calvino Rabeni: but even that math doesn't extend to 3 balls
    Calvino Rabeni: So we live in a complex world, with zillions of physical objects,
    Calvino Rabeni: but the classic math can only handle two at a time.
    Calvino Rabeni: And yet people think it is pretty good math :)
    Bertram Jacobus: i repeat : my impression is, we live in an unbounded universe ... (and that would mean more then zillions) ?
    Calvino Rabeni: Unbounded but finite, is one modern cosmology, but really it seems an open question
    Calvino Rabeni: Every time I read "Scientific American" it is a different variation
    Bertram Jacobus: unbounded but finite i don´t understand - do you ?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, unbounded means it has no edge, finite means it has a fixed amount of mass
    Calvino Rabeni: Like a circle has no end.
    Bertram Jacobus: ah. then i disagree :o)
    Calvino Rabeni: I have no personal opinion - just observe there are competing theories of cosmology
    Bertram Jacobus: whereas ... the circle example is a good one ... hmm ... - but no ! : why should a limitation be ? i don´t see any reason for it, because i see material around me ... and no fixed boundries
    Bertram Jacobus: neither in macro- nor microcosm ...
    Calvino Rabeni: It is a big place, but could wrap around like a circle beyond the horizon, just like the earth itself looks flat but is not.
    Calvino Rabeni: Bert, at this time I must go - it is late here.
    Bertram Jacobus: same here : i thought about ending for now ! :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: appreciated the talk very much - ty ! :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: and have a good time please
    Calvino Rabeni: Thanks for the talk, indeed. See you later then. :)
    Bertram Jacobus: yes. cu :-)

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