2009.12.17 13:00 - emptiness = fullness

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Lia Rikugun. The comments are by Lia Rikugun.

    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey lia
    Lia Rikugun: hello yakuzza
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i hope you´re fine ?
    Lia Rikugun: I am good thank you and you?

    Yakuzza said he was good right *now* - we continue talking about the now

    Yakuzza Lethecus: jep, i am good right now :)
    Lia Rikugun: :) thats good
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey wester
    Lia Rikugun: concentrating on the now ;)
    Lia Rikugun: hello wester
    Wester Kiranov: hi yaku, lia
    Yakuzza Lethecus: that doesn´t work for me that often :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: do you think verbally ?
    Wester Kiranov: what were you talking about?
    Lia Rikugun: :) yes, I am trying to concentrate on the now often
    Lia Rikugun: but most of the time i am forgetting :)
    Lia Rikugun: thinking about what I have to do in the future and and and
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i do that often in a non constructive way, more like an blind grasping for something sensefull but now even knowing what it is and that even in language
    Lia Rikugun: i am not sure if i understand yakuzza
    Lia Rikugun: hello liza
    Liza Deischer: hi all
    Wester Kiranov: hi liza
    Wester Kiranov: liza - Nice to meet you :) Have you been here before?
    Liza Deischer: yes
    Liza Deischer: so I know the rules
    Wester Kiranov: good
    Lia Rikugun: :)
    Liza Deischer: hi pema
    Lia Rikugun: oh hi Pema!
    Wester Kiranov: Hi pema
    Pema Pera: Hi Wester, Liza, Liza, Yakuzza!
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hiya pema :)
    Lia Rikugun: we talked a little bit about 'now'
    Pema Pera: great topic!
    Lia Rikugun: because yakuzza said he was feeling good now
    Pema Pera: glad to hear that, Yaku!
    Yakuzza Lethecus: :)
    Lia Rikugun: so I said that concentrating on the now is somehow a challenge
    Lia Rikugun: :)
    Lia Rikugun: for me at least
    Pema Pera: in what way, Lia?
    Lia Rikugun: there are always things which will happen in the future or which happened in the past and of what I am still thinking of
    Lia Rikugun: even though this might be waisting the time
    Lia Rikugun: or not appreciating what is happening right now around me

    memories and expectations are all occuring now

    Pema Pera: how about reminding yourself that all memories and expectations that you have are occuring in the now? In fact, everything you deal with is happening now, even though you think you're dwelling elsewhere -- would that help, you think?
    Liza Deischer: hi Cal
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey cal
    Pema Pera: Hi Calvino!
    Wester Kiranov: pema - you say exacltly what i was thinking except you say it clearer :)
    Lia Rikugun: yes but what if I am thinking of a memory which I have now but which takes place 5 years ago for example
    Wester Kiranov: hi calvino
    Lia Rikugun: would this be considered as living in the now?
    Lia Rikugun: hello calvino
    Calvino Rabeni: Greetings, everyone :)
    Liza Deischer: I think it is more the attitude you take towards the memory
    Pema Pera: if you only focus on the content, you forget about the now, but if you see both the content (the past) and the time at which the content presents itself (the now) you can have your cake and eat it :)
    Lia Rikugun: ok
    Liza Deischer: you can look at it from the now
    Pema Pera: as Liza said, yes
    Liza Deischer: and you can dwell in the past
    Pema Pera: a memory is like an ad on tv -- you don't have to buy into it
    Pema Pera: you can still see it's manufactured in the now
    Wester Kiranov: :)
    Lia Rikugun: so you are saying by living in the now it is 'ok' to rethink about the past even though I could appreceate what is happening right now around me
    Pema Pera: sure!
    Lia Rikugun: :)
    Lia Rikugun: ok
    Pema Pera: and you can appreciate the presence of the appearance of the memories
    Lia Rikugun: wonderful!
    Calvino Rabeni: a memory might be like a story you tell yourself about who you are now could have been then
    Pema Pera: "appreciating the presence of what appears" is a way of not buying into the messages that are carried by what appears
    Wester Kiranov: hi aubergine
    Pema Pera: hi Aubergine!
    Aubergine Mint: hi everyone
    Liza Deischer: hi aubergine
    Lia Rikugun: hi aubergine
    Wester Kiranov: I like your name :)
    Aubergine Mint: me?
    Wester Kiranov: yep - it goes well together
    Liza Deischer: :)
    Aubergine Mint: ty!

    memories could distract you from the presence

    Liza Deischer: but I think that if you let your memories distract you form the precense
    Liza Deischer: youre no longer in the now
    Pema Pera: yes, so the trick is to not let yourself be blinded by the story alone, as Calvino also said
    Pema Pera: but you don't have to ignore the story either
    Pema Pera: you can have it both
    Aubergine Mint: don't we use our memories toconstruct the present?
    Pema Pera: usually, yes, I think so
    Liza Deischer: nice question
    Wester Kiranov: I think we use our memories to ignore the present, often
    Pema Pera: :)
    Liza Deischer: yes en maybe even think that the memories can tell us something about the future
    Liza Deischer: *and (i was going Dutch)
    Pema Pera: generally we see the present through the lens of the past, as Aubergine pointed out -- and one challenge is to explore in how far we can avoid that
    Lia Rikugun: this is really challenging
    Lia Rikugun: to meet yourself new every day
    Lia Rikugun: or other people
    Pema Pera: or every moment :)
    Lia Rikugun: :)
    Pema Pera: the whole world
    Liza Deischer: :)
    Lia Rikugun: well I am not so far yet
    Pema Pera: are you sure, Lia?
    Lia Rikugun: hehe
    Pema Pera: seriously!
    Wester Kiranov: you can take one moment at the time
    Calvino Rabeni: agree, but not just those things. We construct the past also. And the constructing is not out of nothing, it is partly discovering what is there and meeting it.
    Lia Rikugun: i would need to concentrate each moment to see it new
    Lia Rikugun: i am not always thinking of this
    Pema Pera: perhaps you're doing it and yet not acknowledging it to yourself
    Pema Pera: forcing it would help
    Lia Rikugun: haha :)
    Pema Pera: recognizing it is the only way, I think
    Aubergine Mint: seems to me that our subconscious memories are not within our conscious controls
    Lia Rikugun: do you think there is a possibility that you might go back to less live in the moment? pema
    Liza Deischer: hi betram, emota
    Pema Pera: yes, Calvino, on the conventional level that's what we do -- but perhaps we can completely bypass that in some way
    Lia Rikugun: hello emota
    Emota Lovett: Hey everyone
    Lia Rikugun: hello bertram
    Wester Kiranov: hi emota, bertram
    Pema Pera: hi Bert!
    Bertram Jacobus: hi everybody ... :-)
    Pema Pera: I fall back every moment, Lia, but often quickly realize that -- it's an oscillation in a way
    Bertram Jacobus: sry - didn´t want to interrupt the consertvation ...
    Bertram Jacobus: conversation*

    greater present moment

    Calvino Rabeni: I don't think we have to live life considering knowledge as something constructed by looking at a vanishingly small keyhole called the present
    Liza Deischer: what do you mean with bypassing it
    Lia Rikugun: maybe the question was not correct, because if you realize you can see each moment new you can start doing this now :)
    Wester Kiranov: but the now is not a vanishingly small keyhole, it is all (@cal)
    Pema Pera: agreed, Calvino! the present I was talking about is more like a fourth (zeroeth) time
    Pema Pera: yes, Wester
    Calvino Rabeni: ah
    Pema Pera: you can, Lia, you do already
    Calvino Rabeni: yes, now has eternity and all, if I get your drift
    Pema Pera: with bypassing, Liza, I mean that you can look away from the movie to see the projector, bypassing the logic of the movie -- though yuo don't have to forget or ignore the movie story
    Calvino Rabeni: the greater present moment
    Pema Pera: yes, timeless time
    Pema Pera: not linear past-present-future time
    Pema Pera: well hi Isen ! ! ! !
    Pema Pera: long time no see ! ! !
    Lia Rikugun: hello Isen
    Wester Kiranov: hi isen
    Liza Deischer: ok, I understand
    Pema Pera: welcome!
    Liza Deischer: hi Isen
    Isen Enzo: oo/ga
    Isen Enzo: oop
    Isen Enzo: Hello everyone
    Bertram Jacobus: hello isen ... :-)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hi isen
    Wester Kiranov: brb
    Pema Pera: Lia, the difference I was trying to point to is the difference between trying to reach for something (enligtenment, say) or acknowledging that there is nothing to get, that all is already (here, now, in the broadest sense)
    Lia Rikugun: yes i understand
    Pema Pera: How's life, Isen?
    Lia Rikugun: so simple but somehow not :)
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Isen Enzo: Life is good!!
    Pema Pera: try it, you'll like it, Lia :)
    Lia Rikugun: am trying
    Pema Pera: you can start with "I am trying" and then you drop "trying" and "I" :-)
    Lia Rikugun: am
    Lia Rikugun: :P
    Lia Rikugun: ok just joking
    Pema Pera: nono!
    Wester Kiranov: back
    Liza Deischer: I wouldn't be surprosed of you'll find no time there (referring to a previous discussion)
    Pema Pera: that's it -- it's all a joke -- as Isen will testify to, right?

    emptiness and form

    Bertram Jacobus: a joke ? nobody feels pain ?
    Pema Pera: that's the challenge, to work with that, Bert . . . . emptiness and form, and see both sides
    Wester Kiranov: hey mickey
    Pema Pera: to find compassion without stickiness
    Pema Pera: hi Mick!
    Mickorod Renard: Hiya everyone
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey mick :)
    Bertram Jacobus: hey ! :-) mick ! ... :-)
    Liza Deischer: hi mick
    Mickorod Renard: :)
    Bertram Jacobus: i know all these theories ... and feel different, nevertheless
    Pema Pera: it's not easy to get a working sense for "form is emptiness and emptiness is form"
    Lia Rikugun: I am still wondering about the joke
    Lia Rikugun: what would this mean
    Lia Rikugun: can you put this in words
    Lia Rikugun: ?
    Liza Deischer: maybe experiment is a better word?
    Pema Pera: the joke is what Bertold Brecht said: everybody is running after happiness, but happiness is running at the end of the line, trying to catch up with us

    emptiness - nothing has an seperate self

    Aubergine Mint: what do you mean by emptiness?
    Wester Kiranov: I think the question mark is a pretty good way of putting it into words
    Lia Rikugun: :)
    Pema Pera: emptiness is a big topic . . . anybody?
    Isen Enzo: well...
    Pema Pera: yes, Isen?
    Bertram Jacobus: the dalai lama explained only a few weeks ago, that emptiness would simply mean no inhearent being ...
    Isen Enzo: emptiness is sometimes also kinda it's opposite...
    Isen Enzo: I mean..
    Wester Kiranov: as always...
    Isen Enzo: emptiness as in nothing has a seperate self
    Isen Enzo: an independent self
    Isen Enzo: makes emptiness a total connectedness
    Lia Rikugun: emptiness=fullness
    Isen Enzo: so to speak
    Lia Rikugun: ?
    Isen Enzo: yes
    Lia Rikugun: white=black
    Isen Enzo: all things are interdependent

    nothing stands alone

    Isen Enzo: nothingstands alone
    Isen Enzo: hm
    Aubergine Mint: thank you!
    Isen Enzo: Isn't there some childs sond about somethingstanding alone...
    Isen Enzo: ??
    Isen Enzo: song
    Bertram Jacobus: may be. why do you ask ?
    Isen Enzo: just came to my mind..
    Bertram Jacobus: oh. ah. i see ... :-)
    Mickorod Renard: I was just trying to think of another way of looking at it..although it may be wrong
    Bertram Jacobus: how ?
    Bertram Jacobus: in which way ?
    Calvino Rabeni: Isen, if you like to know - it is the Cheese that stands alone.
    Mickorod Renard: like being drfted into a play,halfway through,knowing the story but just starting at the present
    Mickorod Renard: sort of gives you a clean sheet
    Isen Enzo: Yes- the cheese stands alone!!
    Isen Enzo: But nothing stands alone
    Isen Enzo: the cheese needs a cow
    Isen Enzo: the cow needs grass
    Isen Enzo: the grass needs water
    Isen Enzo: etc
    Calvino Rabeni: and the cheese was eaten by the rat
    Isen Enzo: nothing stands alone
    Aubergine Mint: we are all in and of the universe
    Isen Enzo: Tich Nhat Hahn talks about a sheet of paper
    Isen Enzo: not blank
    Isen Enzo: sez a poet can see clouds in the paper
    Isen Enzo: because the paper needed so much
    Isen Enzo: to be paper
    Isen Enzo: a tree, water, clouds, etc
    Liza Deischer: yh
    Liza Deischer: that is indeed a very nice story form Tich Nhat Hahn
    Liza Deischer: it opened my eyes
    Isen Enzo: anyhow that's how I understand "emptiness" as it seems to be referenced in Zen
    Isen Enzo: things are empty of a seperate self
    Isen Enzo: so it's really a kind of fullness
    Lia Rikugun: emptiness by itself but fullness by everything interconnected
    Isen Enzo: yes
    Isen Enzo: another of those kinda goofy 'zen' concepts
    Lia Rikugun: :)
    Liza Deischer: and buddhism in general
    Isen Enzo: Yes
    Calvino Rabeni: Wonders if Pema's movie theater uses the screen to symbolize emptiness
    Bertram Jacobus: (thich nhat hanh) ... :o)
    Pema Pera: in some sense -- every metaphor is limited though
    Isen Enzo: yes

    how and why did we forget we are all one?

    Wester Kiranov: So - how and why did we forget we are all one?
    Isen Enzo: donno
    Calvino Rabeni: Someone talked us into it
    Wester Kiranov: My theory is that it's so Being can enjoy a nice game of chess - or whatever
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Aubergine Mint: too much emphasis on the individual
    Calvino Rabeni: It is a fashion
    Calvino Rabeni: It is handy for getting certain things done
    Bertram Jacobus: may be we didn´t forget but we never knew before
    Pema Pera: maybe there is no "us" :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Or "I"
    Wester Kiranov: probably :)
    Pema Pera: though there is the appearance of us
    Pema Pera: or at least the presence of the appearance
    Calvino Rabeni: the presence of the appearance of the presence of "I"
    Lia Rikugun: who is it appearing to?
    Liza Deischer: :)
    Aubergine Mint: virtual us
    Lia Rikugun: ahh endless loop..
    Calvino Rabeni: that explains a lot of things
    Mickorod Renard: but is there a concious audience that we need to feel so observed by?
    Liza Deischer: maybe that is I or us

    inner critic, internal voices in Zazen

    Calvino Rabeni: How many identify with the term "inner critic"? and /or the feeling of being closely watched?
    Isen Enzo: in Zazen we have a LOT of internal voices...
    Isen Enzo: the critic
    Wester Kiranov: :D
    Isen Enzo: the coach
    Isen Enzo: the kvetch
    Lia Rikugun: kvetch?
    Pema Pera quietly sneaking out, RL calling
    Lia Rikugun: bye pema
    Wester Kiranov: bye pema
    Liza Deischer: bye pema
    Isen Enzo: bye Pema
    Aubergine Mint: bye
    Calvino Rabeni: Is that traditional zazen? Or did Genpo Roshi develop it more?
    Isen Enzo: _/!\_
    Pema Pera: thanks all, for the fun chats!
    Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
    Isen Enzo: trad zazen we try to let stuff float through our mids
    Isen Enzo: minds
    Mickorod Renard: I think I am becoming less concerned with what people think of me,,some because I feel I am acting more correct now,,and in another way in that it shouldnt bother me anyway even if they are watching me
    Lia Rikugun: kvetch = complain ok sorry my bad english
    Isen Enzo: but often we comment on our own experience
    Isen Enzo: internally
    Mickorod Renard: bye Pema

    'monkey mind' or 'wandering mind'??

    Isen Enzo: 'monkey mind' sorta stuff
    Mickorod Renard: he he
    Calvino Rabeni: not a fan of the monkey mind idea
    Isen Enzo: 'wandering mind'
    Yakuzza Lethecus: good night everyone
    Aubergine Mint: what is the monkey mind?
    Lia Rikugun: good night yakuzza
    Isen Enzo: Bye Yak
    Calvino Rabeni: let all the universe's voices have their say
    Mickorod Renard: nite Yaku,,I need to get to Wok now
    Isen Enzo: 'monkey mind' is the mind that jumps from one thing to another
    Liza Deischer: bye Yaku
    Isen Enzo: endlessly
    Mickorod Renard: nite to you all,,byeeeee
    Lia Rikugun: bye mick
    Isen Enzo: a nother metaphor
    Liza Deischer: bye mick
    Wester Kiranov: I think I'll go to WoK too.
    Isen Enzo: see you Mick
    Wester Kiranov: bye
    Bertram Jacobus: nighty nite ...
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, but what isthe lesson of that metaphor?
    Lia Rikugun: ways of knowling
    Isen Enzo: All over now?
    Lia Rikugun: knowing
    Liza Deischer: bye bert
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I will go to WOK too shortly...
    Bertram Jacobus: bye and thanxx all
    Isen Enzo: ah- well 'monkey mind' describes a wandering mind...
    Mickorod Renard: gosh,,my pc is slow
    Isen Enzo: unfocussed
    Liza Deischer: bye Cal
    Isen Enzo: scattered
    Calvino Rabeni: I get the feeling that it is considerede problematical in some way
    pablito Steampunk: hello
    Lia Rikugun: hello pablito
    Liza Deischer: hi pablito
    Lia Rikugun: we just had a 90 seconds 'break'
    Aubergine Mint: Bye all
    Lia Rikugun: bye aubergine
    Liza Deischer: bye aubergine
    Isen Enzo: Bye aub
    Isen Enzo: _/!\_
    Calvino Rabeni: Got to go, take care all.
    pablito Steampunk: _/!\_
    Aubergine Mint: thanks Isen for your thoughts!
    Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
    Liza Deischer: bi cal
    Lia Rikugun: bye cal
    Lia Rikugun: isen thank you so much for sharing everythng with us
    Mila Greene: hey :)
    Lia Rikugun: i think it was evry interesting and definitely I will need to continue thinking about that
    Isen Enzo: Always a pleasure to give others the benifit of my opinion!
    Lia Rikugun: I will have to leave too
    Emota Lovett: sorry I didn't contribute much Rl kept interrupting
    Isen Enzo: RL happens
    Emota Lovett: this is a lovely place btw
    Lia Rikugun: :)
    Isen Enzo: Yes nice digs
    pablito Steampunk: yes, rl interference patterns :)
    Lia Rikugun: so you all take care!
    Emota Lovett: bye lia
    Mila Greene: gah, i'm late :)
    Lia Rikugun: byebye
    pablito Steampunk: bye bye
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