2009.12.17 19:00 - Finding the Middle Ground

The Guardian for this meeting was Paradise Tennant. The comments are by Paradise, doug, Calvino, Storm and Bene

doug Sosa: hi calvino
doug Sosa: I am always fascinated by you "tell me a story."
Calvino Rabeni: How are you, doug?
Calvino Rabeni: It is my mantra
doug Sosa: i am ok. how did you get to this mantra and what does it mean?
Paradise Tennant: hello doug .. cal :)
Calvino Rabeni: Paradise appears :)
Paradise Tennant: :)
doug Sosa: hi.
Paradise Tennant: how are you two tonight :)
Calvino Rabeni: It is the tag line for the Storyteller's Guild, but I adopted it and put it into the hovertext.
doug Sosa: terrible :)
Calvino Rabeni: Quite well, thanks :)
Paradise Tennant: terrible ?
Paradise Tennant: :) happy to hear it Cal
doug Sosa: sure. i am usually terrible and good at the same time.
Paradise Tennant: the nature of dualism :) per chance
Calvino Rabeni: AH, yes, with me, it is the other way around :)
doug Sosa: don't think so. it is i am good but so many are not.
doug Sosa: For example, just read the transcript of a supre court session a few weeks ago, and most of the judges were so inarticulate, lke tey don't really have egal culture beyond case law. it was VERY discouraging.
doug Sosa: egal=legal
Paradise Tennant: funny you know I find some day I awake walk the dog ..by the water and say .. good morning dream of my mind .. funny thing to say but it helps me put it all in perspective :) the horror .the wonder
doug Sosa: It feels to me bigger than my mind.
Paradise Tennant: yes .. me too ... seems like we must have to have a very big mind to have such a complicated big dream
doug Sosa: well, we do, and we don't.
doug Sosa: Is it all in my mind? Sort of. Is some of it out there? Sort of.
--BELL--
Paradise Tennant: does anyone have a topic they would like to explore ?
Paradise Tennant: faith ... being .. appearances ... inarticulate legal beagles ? :)
doug Sosa: i thought we already were :)
Paradise Tennant: lol
Paradise Tennant: I think you are right !
doug Sosa: legal beagles?
Paradise Tennant: cdb slang for lawyers
Paradise Tennant: cdn
doug Sosa: did we talk to a lawyer today? I did. Case law vs legal theory.
Calvino Rabeni: Doug, is it you that do "reflections on garden world politics"?
doug Sosa: Context: world not working. Declaration of independence "That whe any form of government becomes destructive of these ends.."
doug Sosa: yep.
Calvino Rabeni: Can you summarize the main idea ? What is "garden world" for instance?
doug Sosa: That we all want to live in a combination of civilization and nature. it should be outr intent to try and build sicuh a world.
Calvino Rabeni: OK, I found the book.
doug Sosa: Not a plan, because we don't know, byt the intent to make more green, more useful, more aesthetic, mor climate moderation, more food..
Calvino Rabeni: important topic doug
doug Sosa: blush
doug Sosa: Made more important by climate catastrophe.
Paradise Tennant: yes very much so
doug Sosa: I GardedenWorld i want each person to look at all the eactual scenes in their life and think how to make it more a garden with thos complex qualities.
doug Sosa: Every scene can be improved.
Paradise Tennant: lovely
Calvino Rabeni: good true point
Paradise Tennant: has a physical manifestation and a meditative manifestation too .. because everything starts with a thought ..
--BELL--
doug Sosa: How many can get it and how many are cynical or have a hardened heart?
doug Sosa: We habe the idea that increasing dollars in th economy and alowing for individual consumption gets us to a satisfactory end. but it doesn't.
doug Sosa: oops
Paradise Tennant: none are beyond getting it .. the only question is the when
doug Sosa: Thank you.
Calvino Rabeni: doug, are there strategic ideas
doug Sosa: I think so. What do you mean?
doug Sosa: How to get there?
Calvino Rabeni: yes
doug Sosa: An important idea is to not try to make too much of a plan. we need flexibility and experimentation. But the goal is gardenworld, the actual design has to be worked out locally.
doug Sosa: Then on strategy there is trying to understand the economy and the law, such as land as private property.
doug Sosa: As a first step, changing tax law so it reversed the flow of money to the already rich would lead to a big increase in morale, long before the damage was corrected. just starting..
doug Sosa: would help.
doug Sosa: Bigger issues ar the nature of the corporation and the problem of interest and banking.
doug Sosa: Then we hvae the problem of population, our success becomes out nighmare.
Calvino Rabeni: education, politics, changing the system, democracy?
doug Sosa: yes. Democracy is tricky, as is education.
doug Sosa: Current education if for siloed professions. At stanford
doug Sosa: when i invite prople from the humanities and social sciences to discuss the politics of climate change they say
doug Sosa: "it is not my speciality. what could i contrbute."
doug Sosa: Almost all corporate planning has no place for consieration of the impact on the world of people, resources..
Calvino Rabeni: who is your main audience for your writing?
doug Sosa: I am afraid it is on you :)
doug Sosa: only=on
doug Sosa: Seriously, i don't know. i'd like it to be part of public consciousness. But I am feeling my way.
Paradise Tennant: :)
doug Sosa: I am giving more talks, mor invitations. Maybe n agent will get interested.
doug Sosa: I have to keep rewriting it, brining it up to date.
Calvino Rabeni: There are many approaches to this kind of change, as we're aware
Calvino Rabeni: I think I'm looking for a good rationale to choose
doug Sosa: feel your way, keep experimenting. Wat is the fit life for a human being? For you?
Paradise Tennant: for a gardener :)
doug Sosa: a gardner should be asking about setting and resources. water, land, cleanliness.
doug Sosa: and then aesthetics.
--BELL--
Calvino Rabeni: No easy answere, bit I am reading your book Introduction
doug Sosa: again, blush.
Calvino Rabeni: The whole world is a garden, we each cultivate a different part
doug Sosa: yes, but we don't do it well enough.
Paradise Tennant: :)
Paradise Tennant: well we each create a type of space .. attention .... awareness that always has some manifestation in the external the physical :)
Calvino Rabeni: I gravitate toward approaches that promise holism or integration
Paradise Tennant: we are most definitely one with the garden lol a very real part of of it
doug Sosa: Gardenworld is the seeting for personal development and the raising of children and the making of art.
Calvino Rabeni: One concern is community, social capital
Calvino Rabeni: the place where aesthetics become public
doug Sosa: I lke to leave the idea of cpaital to the side abit. it implies growth. Comes from cap, head, as in head of cattle and "caput"
doug Sosa: the breeding makes another head, hence capital.
Calvino Rabeni: But whatever you call it, and names are nice to have - it has shrunk, and needs to grow - through cultivation
doug Sosa: On public, i'd like to see all schools become community centers for the integration of generations.
doug Sosa: Grow but sustainable. Aristotle talked about growth withut development and - hey - development without growth.
doug Sosa: snow in your lap? :)
Calvino Rabeni: I don't think there's a sustainability issue with the growth of social consciousness :)
Paradise Tennant: hello storm ...gtsy :)
doug Sosa: (hi storm)
Storm Nordwind: Hi guys :)
doug Sosa: I do. i think we are - here i am in a minority - not getting a growth of social consciousness despite the rhetoric. We are getting some larger awareness but the loss of detail and culture is extraordinary.
Calvino Rabeni: Exactly, so growth is needed there
doug Sosa: I a not sure. development yes.
Calvino Rabeni: I think for you, growth is a dirty word?
doug Sosa: there is a time when the brain grows, then it stops growing and develops.
Calvino Rabeni: Undoing-the-shrinking then
doug Sosa: Not dirty, problematic. We cannot grow this economy or the population.. But we can develop.
Storm Nordwind: Or people go into politics, and then it softens instead :)
doug Sosa: ha, yes.
Calvino Rabeni: People like positive sounding words for things that are to increase
doug Sosa: If only congressmen would relish the opportunity to make sense and then be willing to lose the next election. Why hold on?
doug Sosa: Incrase is now very suspect. We are in real trouble with it.
Calvino Rabeni: You know the perspective, that the change must happen on the level of values
Calvino Rabeni: Increase is a problemetical word too then ?
doug Sosa: just need to be careful, make sure we know what we are talking about.
Paradise Tennant: :)
Calvino Rabeni: I think, a strategy of change can't be based on "let's have less of everything"
doug Sosa: Theenergy companies talk about new technologies to "meet higher demands." Wrong.
Storm Nordwind: It can. But no one would be able to sell it!
Calvino Rabeni: But, "let's have more .." - aesthetics, community, long-range security, beauty, so forth
Calvino Rabeni: That worked with the peak-oil movement, apparently
Paradise Tennant: less stuff ...more space ... less is more ... works for me :)
doug Sosa: Yes, but really severe choices loom ahead.
Calvino Rabeni: It is a shift in their presentation
doug Sosa: It is making it attractive, hence back to GardenWorld.
Paradise Tennant: what do you see as the severe choices doug
Calvino Rabeni: And when the severe choices happen, they need positive alternatives
Storm Nordwind: more tolerance, more wisdom, more courtesy works for me! :)
doug Sosa: (where we started this evening.)
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, more of things like that
doug Sosa: yes.
Calvino Rabeni: more civility
--BELL--
doug Sosa: folks, gotta go.
Paradise Tennant: good nite doug
Calvino Rabeni: By then, Doug
Storm Nordwind waves
Calvino Rabeni: Is there a middle ground, between, "let's fix the political system and corporations" and "let's transform everybody's consciousness"
Storm Nordwind: Why would there need to be a middle ground?
Calvino Rabeni: Because people have limited capacity for integrative thought
Storm Nordwind: I think most people have the capacity to be interested in more than one thing!
Calvino Rabeni: If there is a dark spot in the middle, then that is where the trouble would go to hide
Calvino Rabeni: But activists need strategic focuses, as far as I can tell
Storm Nordwind: They are independent topics. Both can be addressed.
Calvino Rabeni: Most focus in specific areas
Calvino Rabeni: some areas don't get addressed
Calvino Rabeni: there are a few who try to integrate
Storm Nordwind: Then keep them separate and address them separately
Paradise Tennant: hiya bene :)
Benedizione Vita: hello everyone
Storm Nordwind: Hi there!
Calvino Rabeni: Who, Storm?
Storm Nordwind: No who, but what. The two topics you mentioned that you thought there might be a middle ground between
Storm Nordwind: *Not
Calvino Rabeni: Can you take a systems perspective?
Storm Nordwind: mais oui
Calvino Rabeni: what is missing then
Storm Nordwind: you tell me
Calvino Rabeni: the middle ground
Calvino Rabeni: social consciousness, social conscience
Calvino Rabeni: for instance
Storm Nordwind: That's an assumption that there is one. What is it based on?
Calvino Rabeni: I can see I won't get far with this line
Paradise Tennant: :) I am going to have scoot ...my apologies but I have logged quite a few thousand air miles in the last few days and I am fading :) I wish you all a very good night .. lots of middle ground and interesting thoughts !.
Storm Nordwind: Take care and rest well!
Calvino Rabeni: :) thanks paradise -fly well
--BELL--
Storm Nordwind: It seems a while since I saw you here Benedizione, if I am not mistaken! :)
Benedizione Vita: it may have been, storm
Benedizione Vita: though I have been here almost every day, I think
Benedizione Vita: at least once
Benedizione Vita: I often drop in late
Storm Nordwind: I think our times do not normally intersect
Benedizione Vita: it may indeed be so :)
Benedizione Vita: and I seemed to doze off this evening, almost in RL as well haha
Benedizione Vita: it was a long night of dancing...
Storm Nordwind: I noticed!
Storm Nordwind: RL dancing? Or SL?
Calvino Rabeni: Where did you get your robe, Storm?
Benedizione Vita: RL
Benedizione Vita: SL dancing doesn't make me sleepy, unless I do it for a LOOOONG time :)
Storm Nordwind: Hmm... good question Calvino. From some temple somewhere. And I modfied the color somewhat
Storm Nordwind: Haha Benedizione!
Benedizione Vita: how do I make this thing laugh again?
Storm Nordwind: Most of the robe seems to be made by Giorno Brando
Calvino Rabeni: Have you a history with temple?
Benedizione Vita: \chuckle
Storm Nordwind: To make your avatar laugh Benedizione, try activating the gesture
Storm Nordwind: Type ctrl-G to find out which ones you have
Benedizione Vita: odd, but it doesn't chuckle loud enough for me to hear
Storm Nordwind: I guess you found them!
Benedizione Vita: can you hear it?
Storm Nordwind: The chuckle is very quite, yes
Storm Nordwind: I've taken my headphones off, so no!
Benedizione Vita: who yawned?
Storm Nordwind: Sorry, what was the question about temples, Calvino?
Calvino Rabeni: If you lived in one
Storm Nordwind: In RL, no. In SL, I have built some yes.
Storm Nordwind: I spend a lot of time in RL in a temple or two :)
Storm Nordwind: But I am not ordained in this life, and they rarely accomodate married lay
Calvino Rabeni: I was envious of the temple opportunities for lay people in thailand
Calvino Rabeni: nothing like it in the West
Storm Nordwind nods
Storm Nordwind: Have you visited?
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
Storm Nordwind: I have been close by, in Penang, but Kek Lok Si is as far as I got!
Calvino Rabeni: Where is K L S?
Storm Nordwind: Right in the center of Penang island. It's a large temple dedicated to Kuan Yin with (IIRC) a 120ft statue of her
Storm Nordwind: Hmmm... Wikipedia says 30.2m :)
--BELL--
Calvino Rabeni: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_iX-ZtJGf14...0/100_3572.JPG
Calvino Rabeni: I liked that these temples are constantly under construction and expansion
Calvino Rabeni: through donations, mostly
Storm Nordwind: yes. I love the feeling of pure non-proselytizing devotion that shines through in these places
Calvino Rabeni: and the many creative ways to give offerings
Calvino Rabeni: This country would be much helped, if retired people had a place to go for a retreat every month, instead of staying home and being isolated
Storm Nordwind: Though I have been to many 'impressive' temples and monasteries in the UK too.
Calvino Rabeni: It is the ubiquity
Benedizione Vita: are you in the US, calvino?
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
Storm Nordwind: I'm not sure that any mandated retreats would help any but a minority!
Calvino Rabeni: An opportunity available to all
Storm Nordwind: Yes... but people do find there communities and survive and thrive...
Storm Nordwind: though I'm speaking of my old country, not my new home
Storm Nordwind: about which I know only the bare bones so far
Calvino Rabeni: In the US, there is a native american tradition
Calvino Rabeni: for all the problems of genocide and cultural appropriation
Calvino Rabeni: it is still a good thing to have
Benedizione Vita: what is the tradition?
Calvino Rabeni: Not sure whether UK / europe have equivalents
Storm Nordwind: Yes perhaps. But it seems that in the US, it all seems to be driven by profit rather than by social caring.
Calvino Rabeni: what do you see, or mean by "it all"
Storm Nordwind: In the US, I see the isolation you mention. I see a fear and guilt driven society. And I see the almighty dollar rules. The cultural psychology is very different in the UK...
Storm Nordwind: different values, different vocabulary even
Calvino Rabeni: There are many separte "first nations" with their distinctions, but they often claim a unified world view
Calvino Rabeni: that is nature-oriented, maybe shamanic
Storm Nordwind: I am not elevating one above the other
Calvino Rabeni: OK, talk about UK difference, please
Calvino Rabeni: for contract
Calvino Rabeni: contrast, I meant
Storm Nordwind: contract?
Storm Nordwind: oh :)
Benedizione Vita: no, contract--you are bound by your word! :)
Storm Nordwind laughs
Benedizione Vita: but on that note, I'm going to have to slip off to bed... goodnight, storm and calvino
Calvino Rabeni: good night, don't contract too much :)
Storm Nordwind: It would take a very long time Calvino!
Benedizione Vita: actually, one tends to expand while sleeping--get a bit taller because the vertebral disks re-expand :)
Storm Nordwind: Even the ideas and words have different underlying nuances that are fundamental
Calvino Rabeni: Broad brush
Storm Nordwind: Hmm...
Storm Nordwind: Here's an interesting observation... you might not think it relevant though...
Storm Nordwind: People here say to me: "You're such a leftie Storm. Such a socialist!"... whereas in the UK, I'm pretty much in the centre of everything politically
Storm Nordwind: Now it's interesting to consider why that should be
Calvino Rabeni: listens
Storm Nordwind: What is the different in social attitude that leads to such a halfway sideways shift in the spectrum - like a strange Doppler effect!
--BELL--
Storm Nordwind: There are many reasons of course. Some come from the short history of the US, and the reasons why people came here in the first place. It is still a very young country
Calvino Rabeni: I have ideas, but welcome your outsider's view
Calvino Rabeni: YEs, I am thinking along those lines
Calvino Rabeni: Class blindness is part of the social contract
Calvino Rabeni: built into the mythology of the country's identity
Storm Nordwind: And the space!! The UK has 20% of the US population yet we have only enough space as to be less than the area of the state of Colorado!
Calvino Rabeni: Plenty of space is definitely part of the myth
Calvino Rabeni: The rural vs urban divide
Storm Nordwind: So if you don't want to interact with people, you don't have to - and that has become part of the culture with many ramifications
Calvino Rabeni: right
Calvino Rabeni: The frontier myth
Storm Nordwind: Still there
Calvino Rabeni: also, protestantism
Storm Nordwind: That is shared with the UK after all
Storm Nordwind: Henry VIII did all that!
Calvino Rabeni: UK has flipped between protestant and catholic various times?
Storm Nordwind: I think to suggest that would be an exaggeration
Calvino Rabeni: WHo smashed the stained glass and iconic art?
Storm Nordwind: There have been phases
Calvino Rabeni: It is in the awareness of the citizens, probably
Storm Nordwind: That was 500 or so years ago
Storm Nordwind: The Catholic period was considerably shorter than the pagan periods before it
Storm Nordwind: Although there was more "flipping" then
Calvino Rabeni: Is there a pagan residue that is still active?
Storm Nordwind: Depends what you mean by active
Storm Nordwind: There are many pagan religions that thrive in the UK
Calvino Rabeni: Functioning as a counterweight to the prevailing worldview
Storm Nordwind: There is no single counterweight
Storm Nordwind: There are many
Storm Nordwind: Just as there are many pagan religions, and always were
Calvino Rabeni: But the have a collective center of gravity different than the mainstream? Or are they thoroughly integrated?
Storm Nordwind: And in different parts of the UK, there are strong interfaith communities
Storm Nordwind: There is no simple rule. Some are outside. Some are very integrated
Storm Nordwind: Same with the "world" religions
Calvino Rabeni: So what are some of the salient effects?
Storm Nordwind: That depends on your viewpoint, who you are and where you view it from!
Storm Nordwind: In some places, there is a high tolerance. I'll give you an example
Storm Nordwind: There is the town of Ipswich, in East Anglia
Storm Nordwind: about 70 miles to the NE of the capital city of London
Storm Nordwind: Ipswich is in the county of Suffolk
Storm Nordwind: And there is a local branck of the nationwide radio company BBC
Storm Nordwind: called Radio Suffolk
Storm Nordwind: On the national BBC, every morning thet broadcast "Though for the Day"
Storm Nordwind: For about three minutes
Storm Nordwind: It's an interlude usually spoken by a religious minister
Storm Nordwind: from some religion - so I include rabbi here
Storm Nordwind: Now the religions represented by this tradition - that's broadcast it prime mroning commuting time as has been for at least 50 years...
Storm Nordwind: are a fairly small batch
Storm Nordwind: the usual suspects!
Storm Nordwind: But not so on BBC Radio Suffolk
Storm Nordwind: There they rotate between a much wider variety of religions
Storm Nordwind: and when the broadcast every morning to their much smaller audience they may have a Christian, Nahai, Jew, pagan, Hindu... you name it
--BELL--
Storm Nordwind: It is a local pocket of religious tolerance
Storm Nordwind: *Bahai
Storm Nordwind: I used to broadcast roughly once every 6 weeks as a Heathen (germanic pagan). A friend interleaved offset by 3 weeks as a Druid. It was refreshing to here such diverse views!
Calvino Rabeni: does a pagan background account for this pocket?
Storm Nordwind: Not really. It was like that anyway. Although recorded paganism goes back 1500 years in that area
Calvino Rabeni: I have a sense interreligious dialogue is on the increase
Calvino Rabeni: in USA that is
Storm Nordwind: What do you mean by " interreligious dialogue"?
Calvino Rabeni: Venues that represent a variety of traditions
Storm Nordwind: Is it limited to mainstream?
Calvino Rabeni: hmmm, well it is hard to tell what is happening on the fringes and in the cults
Calvino Rabeni: visibility in the mainstream i think is increasing
Calvino Rabeni: although I have no statistics
Storm Nordwind: That's a different approach to the UK. They keep their own venues but they talk to each other and sometimes share the same public forum (like the BBC), but the rest of the time they dance around each other peacably, rather than mixing together
Calvino Rabeni: for example http://speakingoffaith.publicradio.org/index.shtml
Calvino Rabeni: in public media, others in academic settings
Storm Nordwind: It's interesting for me to watch. Even fun! This is not meant to sound patronizing, but these things will no doubt happen in this way in a young country.
Calvino Rabeni: there is a blindness to class issues
Calvino Rabeni: part of the social contract of the new country
Storm Nordwind: Are you saying that the issues exist but are ignored or denied?
Calvino Rabeni: yes
Storm Nordwind: Very few places on earth are any different I suspect!
Calvino Rabeni: no, i think it's different in older countries, e.g. UK, than here
Calvino Rabeni: I think it accounts for the spectrum shift you mentioned earlier
Storm Nordwind: No. It just manifests in more subtle ways. Even in progressive countries like the Netherlands, the conservative undertone remains
Calvino Rabeni: You mean, they are blind to class there also?
Storm Nordwind: No. Some can be. Some believe that the classless society has arrived. But this is belied by their behaviour and the way the socities work!
Calvino Rabeni: here there is a tacit denial that class exists
Storm Nordwind: Some are very conscious of class and seek to maintain it
Calvino Rabeni: And the structure of class as an idea seems different
Storm Nordwind: Oh I haven't seen any such denial! Class blares at me from every part of town
Calvino Rabeni: How so?
Storm Nordwind: Hmm...
Storm Nordwind: The lack of automatic social caring means that the charity trickle down effect is overrelied upon. I see the effects of that all over
Storm Nordwind: The haves and have nots are starkly contrasted here
Storm Nordwind: On a macro and micro level
Calvino Rabeni: I question that as being your view of it as an outsider. The identity issues are different.
Storm Nordwind: I am an outsider to everywhere. I am a nomad. I have had more than 40 so -called permanent addresses! I can see the differences and similarities wherever i go!
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, you have that advantage
Calvino Rabeni: what you see is not necessarily apparent to them
--BELL--
Storm Nordwind: Oh sure
Storm Nordwind: For example, the people round here scarely know that Denver has some of the worst drivers in the world! >;->
Calvino Rabeni: you know the marxist idea of "false consciousness"?
Storm Nordwind: I am not an expert on Marx - other than Groucho
Calvino Rabeni: I am not a marxist, but there are some parts of the analysis that make some sense
Calvino Rabeni: Why do the exploited not rebel? was the question.
Storm Nordwind: I think people run from the whole package, rather than cherry picking
Storm Nordwind: And his answer?
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, perhaps that makes sense
Calvino Rabeni: They don't have an identity as members of an oppressed group, is why
Calvino Rabeni: They have bought into a dream that denies their exploitation
Calvino Rabeni: and don't have an accurate assessment
Storm Nordwind: And that's the same tool that the American Right use
Calvino Rabeni: therefore, no ability for collective action and mobilization on class-related issues
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, of course
Storm Nordwind notes the irony
Calvino Rabeni: It all depends on that blindness
Storm Nordwind: The blindness is self-sustained, consciously sustained
Calvino Rabeni: Is that blaming the oppressed?
Calvino Rabeni: I don't see how that could work.
Storm Nordwind: That would be too sweeping a statement
Storm Nordwind: very many people seek comfort in the familiar. They do not want change. Not even all the progressives
Storm Nordwind: Most people are risk averse
Storm Nordwind: for most of the time
Storm Nordwind: It takes a special time and a special stimulus to change that
Storm Nordwind: and sometimes a special leader
Storm Nordwind: or incentive
Storm Nordwind: but they slip back
Storm Nordwind: to the new stable level
Calvino Rabeni: They don't really write the menu
Storm Nordwind: Even my own life, which is full of change enough five of most other people's lifetimes, has periods of quiet where I'm not sure whether I can change again, or even if i want to!
Calvino Rabeni: Anyway, it's too much to attribute informed consent to the kind of "choices" that are made
Calvino Rabeni: Sounds like you think you ought to
Storm Nordwind: It's something I am constantly doing in one way or another. I never use the word "ought". Not in my vocabulary. Relegate it alongside "should"!
Calvino Rabeni: Well, are you sure - why would you think "I'm not sure whether I can change"?
Storm Nordwind: Laziness
Storm Nordwind: Pure and simple
Calvino Rabeni: No such thing, I think
Storm Nordwind chuckles
Storm Nordwind: And why do you think that?
Calvino Rabeni: It's a split attitude, the slave driver and the resistor
Storm Nordwind: That's a very narrow view it would seem
Calvino Rabeni: Well, how do you account for it? Laziness for most, is a judgment
Calvino Rabeni: Efficiency is different
Storm Nordwind: Judgment might be too strong a word. It has a lot of rational baggage with it.
Storm Nordwind: Efficiency is very different true
Calvino Rabeni: So what do you make of "temptation"?
Calvino Rabeni: People are offered choices, they take them
Storm Nordwind: But one is constantly determining and acting according to one's values and priorities, whether of not it is done rationally
--BELL--
Storm Nordwind: A taken choice betrays a person's value and priorities.
Storm Nordwind: For most people these are not fully known
Calvino Rabeni: According to Marx, religion was the opiate of the masses. Nowadays it is not that - it is entertainment.
Storm Nordwind: Simply because they have not really thought about them
Calvino Rabeni: WHen they make that choice - is it laziness?
Calvino Rabeni: I doubt that thinking would cause much change
Calvino Rabeni: Is there a moral free-agent who is simply misinformed rationally?
Storm Nordwind: becoming aware of what matters most to you is the first step. most people never make that step and they operate on the criteria set by others
Calvino Rabeni: well, most people use the menu provided for them, so in a sense, what happens becomes structural on a level beyond the individual
Calvino Rabeni: the entertainment industry is a machine
Storm Nordwind: but I suspect they can be taught otherwise
Calvino Rabeni: it makes the menus
Calvino Rabeni: they may be able to be taught, ues
Calvino Rabeni: yes
Storm Nordwind: I have no truck with the entertainment industry myself. :)
Calvino Rabeni: a kind of moral or spiritual education, that would be
Storm Nordwind: Just fitting someone for making the most out of life - as much as they want to
Calvino Rabeni: why should they have to make the choice "alone"?
Calvino Rabeni: Not saying, that you are saying that
Storm Nordwind: Choice is a long way down the road. They need the first steps first
Calvino Rabeni: I just think, large scale changes happen on a collective level
Storm Nordwind: Give me an example
Calvino Rabeni: Sure, people are likely to give blood, if it is something that a significant number of their peers do.
Calvino Rabeni: Likewise for exercise
Calvino Rabeni: LIkewise for many things.
Storm Nordwind: Wait. We are taling about change. What is the collective change in those?
Storm Nordwind: *talking
Calvino Rabeni: They work their values in harmony with their surrouding
Calvino Rabeni: Well, in Thailand, there are traditions, for instance. People give blood on birthday
Calvino Rabeni: How could something like that be established?
Storm Nordwind: But your example are things that people do less of now than they did say 50 years ago. Or is that your point?
Calvino Rabeni: Now, another example - how did people learn not to toss litter out the window of their auto
Calvino Rabeni: My impression -many populations still do that. Not so much, USA
Calvino Rabeni: that shifted somehow in USA but not in other places
Calvino Rabeni: Or the change in smoking habits
Storm Nordwind: I do not see that as large scale change. Just a very small change affecting a large number of people.
Calvino Rabeni: I widespread change
Storm Nordwind: Modoern communication allow that
Storm Nordwind: But people are fickle and will follow fashion
Storm Nordwind: and who knows what tomorrow's fashion will be
Storm Nordwind: or for the next century
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, my point - the fashion can give them better values, or worse
Storm Nordwind: It can. But of every 1000 fashionable stimuli, perhaps only a small handful take hold
Storm Nordwind: Who can predict which?
Calvino Rabeni: How things get established is a mysterious process
Calvino Rabeni: Anyway storm
Calvino Rabeni: I have to take someone to dinner about now
--BELL--
Storm Nordwind: And who has the presumption to prescribe what is best for others?
Calvino Rabeni: They think together.
Storm Nordwind: Only sometimes!
Calvino Rabeni: Thanks for the conversation; TTYL
Storm Nordwind: Have a good evening!

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