2009.12.18 07:00 - Buddha Had the Same Problem

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Eliza Madrigal. The comments are by Eliza Madrigal.

    Today's was a surprisingly full session. I was joined first by Wester, then Geoff, Gaya, Yakuzza, and Zen.

    Wester gets us started with wonderful reflections on her 9 second practice...  

    Eliza Madrigal waves. Hi Wester! :)
    Wester Kiranov: hi eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: Nice to see you :)
    Wester Kiranov: nice to see you too
    Eliza Madrigal: Thank you :)
    Geoff Baily: hi Eliza and Wester
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Geoff! :)
    Wester Kiranov: I usually don't go to the 7 slt sessions, but there is something very nice about the pavillion in the dark
    Wester Kiranov: hi geoff
    Geoff Baily: ;)
    Eliza Madrigal smiles... yes, there really is, especially with the torches lit
    Geoff Baily: nice touch the torches
    Eliza Madrigal: Geoff, brilliant green you are wearing today!
    Geoff Baily: yes its fresh
    Eliza Madrigal: :)

    The conversation begins ...

    Eliza Madrigal: Does someone have a topic on their mind this morning?
    Eliza Madrigal: er..evening :)
    Wester Kiranov: i had an interesting 9-second practice yesterday
    Geoff Baily: ;)
    Eliza Madrigal: yes? Oh I'd love to hear about that
    Geoff Baily: me too
    Wester Kiranov: for the first time, it felt completely natural, uncontrived
    Eliza Madrigal leans in to listen
    Eliza Madrigal: how so?
    Wester Kiranov: not really trying to see as Being, more just seeing that way.
    Wester Kiranov: it's hard to communicate now, yet at that moment it felt completely natural
    Wester Kiranov: the same way you always think you are going to remember a good dream, I suppose ;)
    Eliza Madrigal: spontaneous.. wow this is something I've been noticing too... when the practice kind of turns and begins doing the engaging .. in a way?
    Geoff Baily: yes it is difficult to pin down with words
    Wester Kiranov: I saw how all the differences don't stand in the way of everything being one
    Wester Kiranov: Hi Gaya
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Gaya :)
    Geoff Baily: having begun to come here regularly now for a while
    Geoff Baily: hi Gaya
    Eliza Madrigal: Hm... differences not standing in the way.. seems core!
    Geoff Baily: nce to see you again!!

    Gaya arrives in her newest form...


    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Eliza, Geoff and Wester :)
    Wester Kiranov: the originality of your avatars never stops amazing me
    Gaya Ethaniel: Was supposed to be out ... but well here today :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Thank you :D
    Eliza Madrigal: yes indeed!
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Yakuzza :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Yakuzza :)
    Geoff Baily: i see you better from here Gaya
    Geoff Baily: hello Yakuzza
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
    Geoff Baily: you look amazing (Gaya)
    Wester Kiranov: hi yaku
    Eliza Madrigal: Gaya and Yaku, Wester had just begun describing a shift in 9 sec practice: Wester Kiranov: for the first time, it felt completely natural, uncontrived
    Gaya Ethaniel listens :)
    Wester Kiranov: Do I have to say it again? I wanted to talk about it but I feel now that the more I talk about it the more it becomes some thing
    Gaya Ethaniel nods. I know what you mean ... :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, sure... yes
    Wester Kiranov: That's the weird thing about these glimpses - They feel completely natural, completely "oh, so that's how it is". And then you come out of them and they are completely out of reach
    Eliza Madrigal: the essense of spontenaiety perhaps
    Wester Kiranov: hi zen
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zen :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Zen :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey zen
    Geoff Baily: yes Hi Zen

    Zen arrives...

    Eliza Madrigal: Now we have our two newest guardians here! :::applause:::
    Zen Arado: Hi everyone
    Wester Kiranov: *more applause*
    Geoff Baily: hi thanks
    Gaya Ethaniel: :::applause:::
    Eliza Madrigal smiles
    Zen Arado: have slight anxiety about posting meetings
    Geoff Baily: ?
    Zen Arado: was reading instructions
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, there is no rush, Zen :) Once you do it twice, is easy :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Please feel free to ask Zen.
    Eliza Madrigal: absolutely :)
    Eliza Madrigal: We'll be setting up more mentoring also...
    Geoff Baily: much to learn but there is lots of help I feel
    Eliza Madrigal: which is really helpful... to have someone there when you first post, etc :)
    Eliza Madrigal nods

    We seem to be talking about 'how' and 'why' we share lately... In particular how we share the open space within our explorations rather than crowding each other or Being, out ... 

    Eliza Madrigal: Re pinning things down...
    Eliza Madrigal: This morning I was trying to jot down notes of a spontaneous pab 'apapb' session last night....
    Eliza Madrigal: but when I read it back, this wonderful experience and unfolding sense of things falls flat....
    Gaya Ethaniel: ?
    Eliza Madrigal: and I wonder about that. I enjoy reading and hearing others' notes, but by the time we capture things they are gone... as it should be :)
    Zen Arado: apaph ?
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah ... I see.
    Eliza Madrigal: appreciating the presence of appearance as a presentation of/by being
    Zen Arado: ah ok
    Eliza Madrigal: It is a way of working with 'all that arises'
    Zen Arado: I think :)
    Eliza Madrigal smiles
    Geoff Baily: in some senses it can be a very private matter
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes, Geoff!
    Geoff Baily: difficult to share without misinterpretation
    Eliza Madrigal: yet we really discovery much by sharing with others, don't you think?
    Eliza Madrigal: *discover
    Geoff Baily: or distortion
    Gaya Ethaniel: Probably not about the actual experiences but through discussing things surrounding the experiences perhaps.
    Wester Kiranov: that's the thing. it somehow loses its essence by communicating it, yet NOT trying to communicate is not an option either
    Eliza Madrigal: Exactly!
    Geoff Baily: not here
    Wester Kiranov: Buddha had the same problem :)
    Eliza Madrigal: And in sharing we get to experience 'the space between'
    Eliza Madrigal: Wester, hah, yes :)
    Wester Kiranov: the space between. I like that.
    Eliza Madrigal: Eos talks about that a lot... frames our 9 seconds that way sometimes...
    Geoff Baily: not trying to communicate it here is not an option
    Geoff Baily: ;)
    Eliza Madrigal: Well, if we know there is distortion we can kind of factor that in maybe... see through it?
    Gaya Ethaniel: It is an option Geoff, no one forces to talk here ...
    Geoff Baily: hmm
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Geoff Baily: well there is encouragement!
    Eliza Madrigal grins widely. Yes there is!
    Geoff Baily: to share
    Zen Arado: different life experiences fosters a more enriching set of viewpoints
    Gaya Ethaniel: I hardly talk about actual meditative experiences unless there is a reason for it. But there are much to be gained by listening and participating without elaborating on one's experiences.
    Geoff Baily: ite not like 've will make you talk!'
    Eliza Madrigal: There is encouragement to 'try and see', which I love :)
    Geoff Baily: more subtle
    Gaya Ethaniel nods. No need to verbalise if not comfortable ...

    Supporting one another, and noticing the weather...

    Eliza Madrigal: We're so used to discussing things as ideas/concepts, etc. I think PaB is unique in that we try to jump in together...
    Eliza Madrigal: and really taste
    Geoff Baily: an organic growth of sharing feelings happens here I find
    Eliza Madrigal: maybe we trip on the way in sometimes...hehe
    Wester Kiranov: and then we get up again.
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes :)
    Geoff Baily: but then we hold each other up!
    Zen Arado: did someone turn the snow off?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Or lay in the snow ... :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Ahhh yes :)
    Zen Arado: good :)
    Eliza Madrigal: The snow is periodic
    Eliza Madrigal: sometimes falls, sometimes holds itself back
    Eliza Madrigal: like we do :)
    Wester Kiranov: Actually, when I look outside there is snow and sunset
    Wester Kiranov: nice contrast
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Geoff Baily: sunrise?
    Zen Arado: nice colours in snow at sunset
    Wester Kiranov: RL sunset, SL sunrise
    Eliza Madrigal: Oooh... that's how I have SL set right now... sunset
    Zen Arado: or sunrise
    Eliza Madrigal: In RL it is raining... continually since last night
    Zen Arado: sunset in RL here
    Wester Kiranov: take a look at the changing colors then here in SL
    Gaya Ethaniel: Sunny here after some snow :)
    Geoff Baily: been snowing here for real
    Yakuzza Lethecus: here we have a closed cover of snow everywhere :)
    Zen Arado: snowing in England
    Eliza Madrigal: Nice, sigh
    Zen Arado: but not where I am

    Two contrasting strings which eventually blend together nicely...

    Eliza Madrigal: SL seems to hinder AND help our discovery of 'the nature of reality' ... like many things... books, films, etc.... using dreams to awaken?
    Zen Arado: you like Christmas?
    Eliza Madrigal: I like that my kids like Christmas :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: The other day I was walking behind this young girl who was gathering up snow off front garden walls of houses as she was passing [probably to make a snowman or something]. Of course she didn't complain about being cold ... :)
    Zen Arado: I hate it...bah humbug !
    Geoff Baily: love it and hate iit
    Gaya Ethaniel: Zen you sound like a Victorian ... 'bah humbug' ... :)
    Eliza Madrigal: She was caught up in what she was experiencing, Gaya?
    Gaya Ethaniel: Yes totally engrossed ... was lovely to watch it.
    Zen Arado: I like some aspects I suppose
    Gaya Ethaniel: She was cold of course ... but it didn't have any impact on her enjoyment.
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal can't remember ever thinking, as a child, "I'm too hot, let me go inside"
    Zen Arado: kids can run around and keep warm
    Zen Arado: I don't like Christmas music in shops
    Gaya Ethaniel: Probably kids don't reason too much about what they do.
    Eliza Madrigal: :) spontaneous... and shift gears when they want... at least in free play
    Geoff Baily: I don't like people spending money they don't have on a fantasy
    Zen Arado: but they have little egos too :)
    Gaya Ethaniel nods :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Put on a cat costume and play bookstore
    Eliza Madrigal: seemingly things that don't go together :)
    Eliza Madrigal: like we do here...heheh
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Geoff Baily: so many seem to search for the happiness
    Geoff Baily: they think there is around Christmas
    Gaya Ethaniel: ?
    Zen Arado: we seem to teach kids that happiness resides in material things at Christmas
    Geoff Baily: and can't find it
    Geoff Baily: yes Zen
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, Geoff... yes ..escape. That seems the opposite of apapb or YsBs or the 9sec even... not escaping but exploring :)
    Wester Kiranov: I think many people believe themselves that happiness resides in material things
    Geoff Baily: ;)
    Zen Arado: yess
    Zen Arado: maybe we all do up to a point
    Zen Arado: we are so conditioned by our culture
    Geoff Baily: of course we all do
    Wester Kiranov: so they want to be as happy as children and they get a cat costume and a book collection - and get frustrated that they're still not happy
    Geoff Baily: and its so difficult to let go
    Eliza Madrigal: hahah, yes! :)
    Zen Arado: attached to material things
    Eliza Madrigal: If you are able to notice deeply, and begin to see through the conditioning, then one feels more satisfied... like Wester alluded to earlier... 'naturally'
    Zen Arado: but I have been decrying this all my life without changing much
    Eliza Madrigal: which doesn't mean I wasn't thinking just yesterday "Oh, if I gave my hair highlights I'd feel so much better" heheh
    Zen Arado: have to change the idea of needing things first I guess

    Sleepwalking through a mad world...

    Geoff Baily: I had a 9 sec moment yester day in a store. Everyone seemed to be sleepwalkers
    Eliza Madrigal: How so, Geoff?
    Zen Arado: the men you mean ?
    Zen Arado: :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: got to go
    Gaya Ethaniel grins ... hair hightlights ...
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye ya :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Bye Yakuzza :)
    Zen Arado: Bye Yaku
    Wester Kiranov: bye yaku
    Geoff Baily: no seriously all walking with eyes open but seeing nothing
    Geoff Baily: bye Yak
    Eliza Madrigal: Hm... malls are real observation areas
    Zen Arado: trying to think what to buy someone maybe
    Geoff Baily: yes
    Eliza Madrigal: We've talked a little about taking whatever appears, even a mall full of 'at first seeming drones', and really noticing...
    Eliza Madrigal: little subtleties... children soaking in all the rushing around and people gossiping, etc.
    Wester Kiranov: Sorry, I have to go. Very nice talking to you, bye!
    Gaya Ethaniel: Bye Wester :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Wester, so nice to see you at this surprising time!
    Zen Arado: used to be ppl were happier at Christmas timebye Wester
    Geoff Baily: bye
    Eliza Madrigal: I find malls and 'designated shopping holidays' difficult, but I've been working with it... taking good advice :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: The only thing I feel lacking is bad quality of air ... in shops/malls.
    Geoff Baily: ;)
    Eliza Madrigal: Geoff, you started to say something earlier... but we got sidetracked...
    Eliza Madrigal: [7:08] Geoff Baily: having begun to come here regularly now for a while
    Eliza Madrigal: ...
    Geoff Baily: looking back
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Geoff Baily: oh yes thanks
    Geoff Baily: gathering thoughts
    Eliza Madrigal: Sure (took a pic of Gaya for the log) :D
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)

    Geoff makes observations about SL and the rhythms of PaB...

    Geoff Baily: now for w while I am more convinced than ever that tis is a special opportunity we have here now
    Geoff Baily: I am struck by the live our avatars live of their own volition
    Geoff Baily: as if they/we are semi independent
    Geoff Baily: also by the fact that reding the logs (a little now) themes roll on from session to session
    Eliza Madrigal: Ohh that's a really interesting topic, Geoff... true true... Avs show us much about memory and capacity.. about potential...
    Zen Arado: that's scary Geoff :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Scary cool, Zen
    Geoff Baily: with diffetent individuals carrying the themes
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Zen Arado: my avatar is taking over ....
    Zen Arado: and he is a brute :)
    Zen Arado: my My Hyde :)
    Geoff Baily: it seems there is a bigger entity here mad up of all of us
    Eliza Madrigal giggles
    Eliza Madrigal: there is something else to see in this... and wow Geoff... you know I feel like I'm just learning about PaB lately...
    Geoff Baily: made!!*
    Geoff Baily: goos typo!!
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Zen Arado: Freudian :)
    Eliza Madrigal: We explore taking things lightly, not getting 'trapped' in appearances but learning to really notice.. same is true for our dreams and avs...
    Eliza Madrigal: SL is so compelling
    Geoff Baily: Yungian also
    Geoff Baily: Jungian
    Eliza Madrigal: Mad World :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :) on that note, I must be off to the mad world.
    Geoff Baily: mad PaB
    Eliza Madrigal: hehe
    Gaya Ethaniel: Have a good day everyone :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Gaya, good to see you. Email me about 'struggle'>>
    Zen Arado: bye Gaya
    Geoff Baily: bye Gaya
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah yes, will do!
    Eliza Madrigal: :))

    Appearing as stereotypes... 

    Zen Arado: ppl behave towards you very largely by your appearance
    Zen Arado: I think
    Eliza Madrigal: that might be a first tendency
    Zen Arado: more than we realise
    Eliza Madrigal: its good practice to be here though, knowing that there is this appearance and it might change day to day...
    Zen Arado: I notice it a lot in RL
    Geoff Baily: yes
    Eliza Madrigal: some think that pretty avs can't be substantive, for instance...
    Eliza Madrigal: heheh
    Zen Arado: stereotypes...
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Geoff Baily: haha
    Eliza Madrigal: Wester said that she felt that differences didn't present a barrier to 'oneness' in the 9 seconds she related. That is very inspiring... energizing :)
    Zen Arado: yes
    Eliza Madrigal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4N3N1MlvVc4
    Eliza Madrigal: This reminds me of how you describe the mall, Geoff
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Zen Arado: differences become more important the deeper you know someone though
    Geoff Baily: yes
    Eliza Madrigal: think so Zen?
    Zen Arado: yes
    Zen Arado: you have to find a way to harmonise
    Zen Arado: and accept
    Geoff Baily: thanks Eliza will look later
    Eliza Madrigal: Sitting with my grandfather the other day.. a man whose personality is capable of driving me crazy, I realized that I knew he loves me... and that's all that mattered or every would.
    Zen Arado: oh I didn't even notive link :)
    Eliza Madrigal: *ever
    Zen Arado: thanks Eliza
    Geoff Baily: my last yes did not agree with Zen!
    Eliza Madrigal: I don't expect knowing that to mean that his personality and mine will not clash...
    Geoff Baily: thats nice Eliza!
    Eliza Madrigal: so sometimes we have ideas of harmony?
    Eliza Madrigal: Thanks Geoff.. it really was a lovely moment... just sitting with him, and that reality :)
    Zen Arado: I don't know how deeply you get to know ppl here in SL compared to RL I was thinking
    Eliza Madrigal: Ahh
    Geoff Baily: clashes often happen between people who are similar
    Geoff Baily: thay tread on each others toes!
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal nods nods
    Geoff Baily: loving is often difficult
    Geoff Baily: and painful
    Zen Arado: maybe using text promotes more peacefl communication?
    Geoff Baily: but essential
    Zen Arado: you have more time to consider what you say
    Eliza Madrigal: Essential, yes :)
    Zen Arado: yes it sure is
    Eliza Madrigal: Hm, I do think that can be true Ze
    Eliza Madrigal: Zen
    Geoff Baily: ;)
    Eliza Madrigal: though for some texting is more difficult
    Eliza Madrigal: and they therefore hold back
    Zen Arado: fast tpists can dominate
    Zen Arado: I have noticed in other meetings
    Geoff Baily: ....or not.........................
    Eliza Madrigal: I didn't expect to feel so comfortable meeting a group of pab-ers in november. For all my chattering here, I can be quite shy, but I learned that our instincts and feelings here can be very real
    Eliza Madrigal: it was a revelation
    Geoff Baily: yes very true Eliza
    Geoff Baily: I had a simikar experience..
    Zen Arado: your personality comes across like that to me Eliza

    At the time I read these lines as though my fast typing was sometimes intrusive, but now I realize I missed saying thank you for the nicest *kind* of compliment. So, "Thanks".

    Eliza Madrigal is a fast typist and excitable...but well intended :)
    Zen Arado: so maybe there isn't much difference from here and RL
    Geoff Baily: ;) and kind
    Zen Arado: yes
    Zen Arado: stop blushing Eliza :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Maybe it is how we see :)
    Geoff Baily: good question Zen
    Eliza Madrigal: So our practices allow us to see freshly in whatever context...
    Eliza Madrigal does indeed blush very easily...hah
    Geoff Baily: in essence I think little difference
    Zen Arado: if you talk long enough ppl get to know your personality
    Geoff Baily: in real life we are avatars in a vey real sense
    Zen Arado: form what you say
    Eliza Madrigal: absolutely Geoff!


    Eliza Madrigal: Oooh... which reminds me that the film "Avatar" is getting incredible reviews
    Geoff Baily: thats a theme her I find
    Zen Arado: has it anything to do with SL?
    Geoff Baily: good or bad Zen
    Eliza Madrigal: Well, James Cameron said it is not 'like' SL...
    Eliza Madrigal: but the parallels are obvious
    Zen Arado: hmm
    Eliza Madrigal: and the world created is detailed and rich
    Eliza Madrigal: but not 'like what we know as reality'... entirely invented... like Tolkein
    Zen Arado: might go and see it then
    Geoff Baily: I must go soon
    Eliza Madrigal: *Tolkien
    Zen Arado: anyway I better go
    Zen Arado: thanks for discussion
    Geoff Baily: nice to talk
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes... me too.... Nice sitting with you both. Surprisingly busy session for a Friday 7AM
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye for now :)
    Zen Arado: or Friday 3 pm :)
    Zen Arado: bye
    Eliza Madrigal: hehe
    Geoff Baily: look after yourselves both
    Eliza Madrigal: You too Geoff. thanks for coming! :D
    Geoff Baily: bye Eliza

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