2009.12.18 13:00 - From languages to new worlds

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Yakuzza Lethecus. The comments are by Yakuzza Lethecus.

    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey liza
    Liza Deischer: hi Yaku
    Yakuzza Lethecus: where are you from bye the way ?
    Liza Deischer: Holland
    Yakuzza Lethecus: nabend bertram
    Liza Deischer: hoi Bert
    Bertram Jacobus: good evening yaku and liza :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: oh. dann verstehst du warhscheinlich auch deutsch liza (?) ... :-)
    Liza Deischer: a bit
    Liza Deischer: i understood that
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hiya pema :)
    Bertram Jacobus: okay :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: hello pema ! ... :-)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: pema versteht auch deutsch :)
    Liza Deischer: hi pema
    Liza Deischer: also Dutch
    Liza Deischer: youre also from Germany Yaku
    Bertram Jacobus: dutch has a lot of german i think. and english - right ?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: jep, i am :)
    Liza Deischer: well
    Liza Deischer: it depends
    Liza Deischer: German and Dutch are really different languages
    Liza Deischer: but still
    Pema Pera: hi everybody!
    Liza Deischer: hi Pema
    Yakuzza Lethecus: it´s interesting i talked to a guy from south afrika a few month ago and i didn´t know that afrikaans was based on dutch
    Pema Pera: ein Deutsches Treffen heut?
    Bertram Jacobus: i find it quite often embarassing : dutch people very often understand german, but germans nearly never dutch ... :-/
    Liza Deischer: yes it is
    Liza Deischer: I dont understand it
    Liza Deischer: but i can read it
    Pema Pera: Hi Aubergine!
    Aubergine Mint: Hi Pema and everyone
    Liza Deischer: :)
    Bertram Jacobus: hello aubergine ... :-)
    Liza Deischer: hi aubergine
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hello eggfruit :)
    Liza Deischer: German,French and English are big languages
    Bertram Jacobus: lol :o)
    Aubergine Mint: nice :)
    Bertram Jacobus: and spanish !
    Liza Deischer: a lot of people can use those languages
    Liza Deischer: but as a small dutchman
    Liza Deischer: inclosed by those languages in the east, west and south
    Bertram Jacobus: i don´t think, that many people in the world speak german ...
    Liza Deischer: we must make sure we talk a little bit of everytthing
    Liza Deischer: The eastern part of Europe"?
    Bertram Jacobus: no. that is not my impression. even very different : they have not the roman but the slwic languages there ...
    Bertram Jacobus: slavic*
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hehe, pema could at least do the japanese part from a global perspecive :P
    Liza Deischer: ok, yes you can be right
    Pema Pera: :)
    Liza Deischer: you probably are
    Bertram Jacobus: i learned a bit russian some many years ago at the university of heidelberg ...
    Bertram Jacobus: - some
    Liza Deischer: well, thats an interesting language
    Bertram Jacobus: yes. it was still in the times of cold war. i wanted to break a bit the borders ... ;-)
    Liza Deischer: that's a good thought
    Pema Pera: learning a new language is like entering a new world,
    Pema Pera: learning to think in new terms
    Pema Pera: think and feel and express
    Liza Deischer: true
    Liza Deischer: every language has his own 'feel'
    Bertram Jacobus: every moment can give a chance to "enter a new world" - my spontaneous thought ...
    Liza Deischer: in english you often only use a few words, to explain a whole world
    Pema Pera: perhaps every moment *is* a new world !
    Pema Pera: more radical
    Bertram Jacobus: ok :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: but one has to develop that
    Pema Pera: each moment we die -- the we who we (thought we) are
    Bertram Jacobus: to see it
    Pema Pera: and each moment we and the whole world are born
    Bertram Jacobus: feel, experience it -
    Pema Pera: that is easy to see
    Pema Pera: and you can learn to feel
    Pema Pera: seeing is pretty obvious, no?
    Pema Pera: the past has gone . . .
    Bertram Jacobus: i think, for some people more easy for some less
    Bertram Jacobus: because of the so called "karmic glasses", for example ...
    Liza Deischer: its easy to see, hard to feel
    Pema Pera: yes, Bert, but there are two reactions you can have to karma: you can acknowledge it and take it as a constraint; and you can acknowledge it and take it as an opportunity to work with it, using the boundaries it poses as bridges to go beyond those boundaries
    Bertram Jacobus: and overcome all that ... another choice
    Pema Pera: or see through it -- easier than trying to "overcome"
    Pema Pera: a subtle but very important shift in attitude
    Pema Pera: acknowledge/appreciate/accept rather than try to change/force/reach
    Bertram Jacobus: and i think, one can see very illusive ... also because of strong habits
    Pema Pera: it is a matter of cultivation
    Bertram Jacobus: i see what you mean. nicely expressed
    Pema Pera: and a teacher and/or group of friends can help, of course
    Pema Pera: it's important to keep good common sense
    Bertram Jacobus: i found a new flat today - so the terror with my neighbour will have an end - i´m VERY eased ...
    Pema Pera: congratulations, Bert!
    Liza Deischer: oh, I know that kind of terror
    Bertram Jacobus: ty. that was a strange experience with that neighbour (!) ...
    Bertram Jacobus: and i won´t understand it ... hm -
    Liza Deischer: if you cna't find peace in your own home....
    Bertram Jacobus: is the word "mobbing" also exoisting in english - and if yes - what does it mean, please ?
    Bertram Jacobus: right liza, terrible, very sad, exhausting ...
    Pema Pera: by the way, Liza and I have had some very interesting conversations recently, off line
    Pema Pera: about the question of practice
    Pema Pera: to what extent it makes sense to talk about that in a loose group like here
    Bertram Jacobus: sounds interesting
    Pema Pera: rather than in the more organized structure of a particular tradition
    Pema Pera: I would love to bring that conversation into the group, because it is really essential for anything we do here
    Bertram Jacobus: please, do so !
    Pema Pera: Liza, do you want to say something about the concerns you have?
    Aubergine Mint: that sounds great
    Bertram Jacobus: hello zen -
    Pema Pera: Hi Zen!
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey zen
    Zen Arado: Hi everyone
    Aubergine Mint: hi zen
    Pema Pera: sorry to jump this on you suddenly, Liza :)
    Liza Deischer: hi Zen
    Pema Pera: if you like, I can summarize our conversations in a nut shell
    Liza Deischer: yes wasnt prepared
    Liza Deischer: please do
    Pema Pera: the core point that Liza brought up was the question whether it makes sense to talk about deep personal experiences, that can occur as part of a really serious exploration of reality, of the kind we do here
    Pema Pera: in an open group of the kind we have here
    Pema Pera: without the kind of safety and experience provided by a tradition
    Pema Pera: any tradition
    Pema Pera: whether Buddhist, Christian, Hindu, or humanist or philosophical
    Pema Pera: any tradition that has something to fall back on
    Bertram Jacobus: i don´t think, that tradition is the point , more the group ...
    Pema Pera: I think Liza had an impression that we are climbing a staircase without a railing, without a handhold -- open but without guard rails built in. So in response I started talking about our system of guardians, etc
    Pema Pera: is that a fair summary, Liza?
    Liza Deischer: yes, it is
    Aubergine Mint: I had a similar impression
    Pema Pera: what do yuo think, Aubergine?
    Pema Pera: do you see a drawback, or concern?
    Aubergine Mint: I had a similar feeling, one of confussion about the groups purpose
    Bertram Jacobus: i am already used to the idea that openness is good. but also more extroverted i am also - we had the topic already here. so it´ßs more easy for me ... more difficult for others ...
    Liza Deischer: maybe i can expand a little bit on my feelings
    Pema Pera: the purpose is to see who we really are . . . .
    Pema Pera: please, Liza!
    Liza Deischer: I do stand in a tradition
    Liza Deischer: in which meditation and knowledge are both important
    Aubergine Mint: I hear a lot of Buddhist ideas, but not much Humanist, or philosophical
    Liza Deischer: especially meditation gave me a tool to see things in a differnet perspective
    Zen Arado: I see tradition as being in the form of a lineage of experienced teachers
    Aubergine Mint: feels exclusionary rather in inclusive
    Liza Deischer: but meditation has rules
    Bertram Jacobus: which are your ideas aubergine - may i ask so ?
    Liza Deischer: that are very important for the rigth viewing
    Liza Deischer: seeing if you will
    Aubergine Mint: what do you mean, Bert?
    Bertram Jacobus: when you write about buddhist, human and philosophical ideas here - do you prefere some of them ? or others aubergine ?
    Aubergine Mint: i am not familiar with much about Buddhism, i lean towards humanist ideas
    Aubergine Mint: but am open to learn
    Aubergine Mint: don't want to label myself
    Liza Deischer: I think that remark is very valuable
    Bertram Jacobus: i think, it´s random which ideas and people we meet here - in relation to the traditions.
    Aubergine Mint: want to incorporate ideas i find helpful
    Liza Deischer: because I feel the group want to be open to all ideas
    Zen Arado: this group does lean towards Buddhism mostly it seems to me
    Bertram Jacobus: hy zon :-)
    Zen Arado: Hi Zon
    Pema Pera: Hi Zon!
    Zon Quar: heya
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hiya zon
    Liza Deischer: but maybe that means that we need to create our own railing
    Aubergine Mint: maybe it's just the sessions i've been too but does lean towards Buddhism and uses Buddhist language
    Liza Deischer: I think so to
    Liza Deischer: too
    Bertram Jacobus: for me also all ways and thougts from everywhere are helpful - if they are linked with love.
    Aubergine Mint: i feel the language needs to be more open
    Aubergine Mint: like you were mentioning at the begining
    Pema Pera: I think it is essential to emphasize that we are not a Buddhist group, nor leaning toward Buddhism, really -- perhaps there are more Buddists here, but there are also many from other traditions, or without a particular tradition
    Zon Quar: all words, ideas and -isms r just pointers
    Pema Pera: every individual needs boundaries that at the same time are permeable
    Liza Deischer: true, but Aubergine is right in a way
    Pema Pera: like cells in our body
    Liza Deischer: we had a discussion about Emptiness yesterday
    Liza Deischer: thats a bhuddist concept
    Zen Arado: perhaps there have been Buddhists present mostly atmeetings Aubergine and Liza attended lately
    Bertram Jacobus: i learned in many traditions, but the buddhist teachings give a very fitting and actual path for seekers of today i would say. not easy to jump in but very interesting, quite intellectual perahps also -
    Liza Deischer: but without the railing (as you put so well)
    Aubergine Mint: i asked for someone to define emptiness for me, but felt i was the only one in the room who didn't know it
    Zen Arado: haven't met many who could define that Aubergine !
    Liza Deischer: yes, I can imagine the feeling
    Pema Pera: at that point it was already late in the session, Aubergine, and it is a big topic to start with
    Liza Deischer: no but youre familiar to the concept Zen
    Aubergine Mint: I realize that
    Pema Pera: it would be great to focus a whole session (or two) on emptiness, by all means!
    Zen Arado: yes I guess
    Aubergine Mint: but neverthe less, i felt i didn't have the tools to participate
    Liza Deischer: but there is a new topic on the table now
    Liza Deischer: the one of intention
    Pema Pera: we need no tools, Aubergine :)
    Zen Arado: i have an Evangelical Christian/ philosophy/ Buddhist background
    Liza Deischer: but maybe we use tools without knowing it
    Liza Deischer: and do we use the tools in the right way?
    Aubergine Mint: tools in the sense of language
    Zon Quar: if they work..we use them in right way
    Liza Deischer: not just language, but also concepts (as a buddhist I dont like that word, but okay...)
    Liza Deischer: but at the same time, I realise that contradicts openess in a way
    Liza Deischer: *with
    Pema Pera: we use concepts to point to what is beyond concepts
    Pema Pera: as long as we realize that, concepts are fine!
    Liza Deischer: :)
    Pema Pera: Most groups are either deep or wide
    Pema Pera: deep as in following a particular tradition in depths
    Pema Pera: or wide as a way to communicate between traditions, but staying more shallow
    Pema Pera: we are crazy enough to try to do both :-)
    Pema Pera: we'll see how well it works
    Bertram Jacobus: we ? ;-)
    Pema Pera: we = PaB as a group
    Aubergine Mint: seems a hard task
    Zon Quar: sounds good
    Bertram Jacobus: hm. you´re sure ? you speak for others ?
    Pema Pera: we have to be patient, that's the main thing, Aubergine -- not to expect quick results
    Pema Pera: I'm speaking for the PaB group, yes, as I see it
    Zon Quar: not to get trapped in words and concepts
    Liza Deischer: yes, but I think thats where the problem is
    Pema Pera: many of us at least are deeply serious and willing to share that in an open way
    Liza Deischer: on one hand we want to be open to any tradition
    Liza Deischer: on the other hand, the buddhists seem to be on the upper hand
    Liza Deischer: I agree pema
    Pema Pera: well, in any group there is a subgroup that is larger than other subgroup, but that doesn't mean that they are in any special position
    Pema Pera: it is always nice to hear Taoist, Hindu, Islam, Christian, phenomenological, humanist ideas too
    Pema Pera: and all of those happen here
    Pema Pera: and more
    Bertram Jacobus: hey ! :-) eliza ... :-)
    Pema Pera: hi Eliza!
    Aubergine Mint: hi eliza
    Zon Quar: hi eliza
    Zen Arado: Hi Eliza :)
    Liza Deischer: I know, but I think I heard Aubergine say, that she felt more excluded yesterday
    Liza Deischer: hi Eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Everyone :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey eliza
    Aubergine Mint: ok, so i'll keep coming to more to get a better overview of the group
    Pema Pera: in fact, Aubergine, Isen gave a great start at talking about emptiness, through his examples
    Zen Arado: maybe there is a wider mix at other times than this ?
    Aubergine Mint: yes i thought so too
    Pema Pera: we have been going on for one and a half years, with a few thousand sessions now
    Pema Pera: so there is a lot of shared background, but that shouldn't discourage yuo
    Aubergine Mint: so i'm late
    Pema Pera: we are always happy to start from scratch
    Pema Pera: I very much enjoy starting at square one
    Bertram Jacobus: i´m here since only a few month "too" aubergine ...
    Eliza Madrigal: Never late :)
    Pema Pera: to clarify also for myself what it is I am working with
    Bertram Jacobus: months*
    Zon Quar: truth is higher than any religion or philosophy...
    Liza Deischer: its an open group, so new people arrive all the time
    Pema Pera: keeping it fresh!
    Aubergine Mint: so "scratch" questions are ok?
    Zon Quar: they r the best
    Liza Deischer: (she said, only being here for a few weeks herself)
    Zen Arado: we can get too sectarian and dogmatic about our beliefs if we only talk to others who share the same beliefs I think
    Zon Quar: nods
    Zon Quar: variety is more fun
    Zen Arado: I found that when I was a Christian
    Zen Arado: like going around with blinkers
    Eliza Madrigal: agree with that Zen... it is a privelege to be able to talk to so many here with such diverse backgrounds
    Zen Arado: maybe I am getting that way with Zen :)
    Pema Pera: we have some very serious Christians too here, like Geo, a Franciscan
    Zon Quar: yes..freshens up ur toughts
    Eliza Madrigal: Sorry to appear and disappear so soon :) Bye for now
    Pema Pera: I wish he would come here more often
    Pema Pera: bye Eliza!
    Pema Pera: I have to go too
    Liza Deischer: bye Eliza
    Eliza Madrigal waves
    Zen Arado: bye Eliza
    Zon Quar: bye E
    Pema Pera: to a phenomenology workshop in the Kira Cafe
    Pema Pera: (to which anybody is more than welcome!)
    Aubergine Mint: bye everyone
    Zon Quar: bye A
    Liza Deischer: in that case
    Liza Deischer: im going too
    Zen Arado: bye everyone
    Zon Quar: yup
    Zon Quar: namaste
    Liza Deischer: shoot, another discussion broken off :)
    Liza Deischer: bye all
    Bertram Jacobus: bye liza ...
    Yakuzza Lethecus: ok cya there maybe pert
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bert
    Bertram Jacobus: danke yaku - kannst mir mal n tp dahin geben ?
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