2009.12.20 08:00 - PaB Approach, Applied in an Open Way

Present at today's Guardian Meeting were Calvino, doug, Eden, Eliza, Eos, Genesis, Maxine, SophiaSharon, Storm, Vendy, Wol, and Zen.

Comments by Eliza Madrigal.

Maxine Walden: Guess we could begin: guardian issues or concerns?
Maxine Walden: I sent out a potential discussion point on the email a couple of days ago, about the various types of groups, some open some more focussed re PaB considerations...but we are open to other considerations here
Maxine Walden: we can talk about any guardian issues which seem important
Eden Haiku: You meant PaB sessions yes Maxine? Or did you mean other groups?
Maxine Walden: hi, doug
Wol Euler: hello doug
Zen Arado: Hi Doug
doug Sosa: )
Eden Haiku: hello Doug.
Eos Amaterasu: Could also mean meeting/practicing/discussing outside regular sessions as well as in
Maxine Walden: I meant PaB sessions for one, but there have been wonderings about 'applied' PaB concerns in society, for instance, which might occur in sessions other than regular sessions
Eden Haiku: It would be very different from what it is now.
Maxine Walden: yes, and what Eos has just mentioned...a variety of types of meetings
Wol Euler: hello gemn
Wol Euler: *gen
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Gen :)
Eden Haiku: waves to Genesis
genesis Zhangsun: Hi!
Vendy Walpole: Hi gen
doug Sosa: )
Eliza Madrigal: When I first heard the term 'pure and applied pab' I was a little puzzled, but in the weeks we have been discussing this, it is my feeling we've been clarifying organically, in a way
Maxine Walden: care to say more, Eliza?
Eliza Madrigal: Well, I asked myself what that was, then started to consider... and think about the exercizes specifically, and "Oh, yes that would be great to focus on more.." etc
Eliza Madrigal: and as we open up about what we aren't open about, it just seems to have a process that works itself, when we are engaged with everyone giving suggestions and initiatives?
genesis Zhangsun: sorry to have missed the discussion but have we talked about the difference between pure and applied?
Calvino Rabeni: the difference makes sense to me - and I think it would be valuable
Maxine Walden: just opening the discussion, gen
Eliza Madrigal: It would be great if you could speak to that Gen :)
doug Sosa: FRom my point of view, if we make a distiction we have missed the point. It implies a division in the world which is arbitrary and abstract, not experiential. I think things like the pattern of the cushions in this room is as experienceable as the cushions themselves, and the spirit of that regularity is also presnet, and so on.
genesis Zhangsun: well I don't really have an answer but my sense is that applied could mean the application of the PaB philosophy in one's life, yet on the otherhand PaB is not a philosophy so it is always "applied"
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eos Amaterasu: Also, when you try to do "pure" PaB you find there's a lot of messy stuff in there
Eden Haiku: ;-)
Calvino Rabeni: PAB can be given a topical focus to apply it to anything
Eos Amaterasu: and in daily life PaB happens in the middle of things anyway
Eliza Madrigal nods
Eos Amaterasu: Maybe part of the question is how that extends out from your private little circle and starts including others
genesis Zhangsun: so another form of "applied" could be "applied to wordly matters"
genesis Zhangsun: for example Doug and I just started a series of talks on PaB and sustainability
genesis Zhangsun: \\
doug Sosa: what is not a worldly matter?
Eliza Madrigal: it seems to me it can't help but include others, if one is really engaging
Calvino Rabeni: PAB as a pheno mode is - thinking together in a *certain way*
genesis Zhangsun: I guess that is the topical focus that Calvino mentions
Calvino Rabeni: which could be done about a specific topic
Calvino Rabeni: and in a specific setting
doug Sosa: For me it is opening up, dropping assumptions, see what we experience. I think we experience much more than we normally think of when we use words like "concretge" and "abstract.", which hide things, make them illegitimate.
genesis Zhangsun: /though I agree Doug the lines are rather blurry
Calvino Rabeni: OF course, the method is also open to experiment in session :)

Conclusions...

Zen Arado: to be 'applied' don't you need to have reached conclusions of some kind?
Calvino Rabeni: NO
Eliza Madrigal: I don't think so Zen... continuously not reaching conclusions seems part of the practice?
Eliza Madrigal: Well, can only speak for me :)
Calvino Rabeni: Continuiously going beyond conclusion, not inhibiting their formation
Zen Arado: but you need to know what to apply?
Zen Arado: at a given time?
Eliza Madrigal nods... yes... need to get acquainted with jumping in
Eliza Madrigal: wherever we are?
Calvino Rabeni: It is a way to take PAB awareness and turn it into a kind of contemplation
Maxine Walden: Or to be relatively comfortable in being uncertain but going ahead anyway
Eliza Madrigal: Like doug and Gen talked about... even in issues of 'economy'
Calvino Rabeni: yes
SophiaSharon Larnia: sorry have to go, bye all :)
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Sharon :)
Eos Amaterasu: there's an interplay between opening/letting go and seeing clearly/deciding
Zen Arado: bye Sophia
Vendy Walpole: Bye Sophia
Eos Amaterasu: Bye SS
Eden Haiku: Bye Sophia!
Maxine Walden: bye SophiaSharon, thanks for coming
doug Sosa: And my view is that the economy is not"ut there", it is here in the room, and can be experienced if we open up.
doug Sosa: ut=out
Eliza Madrigal nods
Zen Arado: just a bit uneasy that practical action needs some basis of having reached a decision
Zen Arado: unlike what happened in Copenhagen?
Zen Arado: but Pab is more about thiking I guess
Eliza Madrigal: the thing is, there are lots of philosophies and thinking ways of having 'correct formulas' for dealing with things... and people have placed a lot of trust in those to hm, not great results? PaB is something else?
Maxine Walden: maybe one issue here is whether we have to be certain about agreeing or disagreeing with one another, or whether there is room and appreciation for different perspectives about the same thing/experience/phenomena
Eden Haiku: HI Storm!
Zen Arado: Hi Storm
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Storm :)
Vendy Walpole: hello

Nearly a title...

Eos Amaterasu: Playing as Being does not mean we turn into mush - there's also the aspect that acting from Being is also part of Being presenting itself/oursselves
Maxine Walden: hi, Storm
Calvino Rabeni: I think it requires some allowance, that the thinking in PAB advances something in its participatnts, that will have effects later that are preactical
Storm Nordwind sleepily whispers "Hi!"

Fresh and Revolutionary ...

genesis Zhangsun: yes so perhaps rather than "applied" to a problem to find a solution it is more like the approach of PaB applied to an issue in an open ended way
genesis Zhangsun: hey Storm
Calvino Rabeni: No the application is t the thinking, and to the people involved, not a form of problem-solving
Eliza Madrigal nods to Gen... your phrasing seems helpful
Calvino Rabeni: It is not measured by coming away with a programme
Eos Amaterasu: PaB like resting in the cornucopia, from which things emerge
Zen Arado: not even a temporary decision?
Calvino Rabeni: yes
Eos Amaterasu: including clearer views of issues, and even ways to go, directions
Calvino Rabeni: a temporary decision as a thing to consider, yes
Eliza Madrigal: yes, not taking a topic or idea off the table... but not getting stuck there

genesis Zhangsun: it might be precisely this issue of a sort of rejection of the whole notion of "problems" and "solutions" which is so revolutionary

Calvino Rabeni: I agree
Maxine Walden: agree, gen
Calvino Rabeni: and the idea of forcing consencus pattern making
doug Sosa: And so helpful.
genesis Zhangsun: there is a lot less pressure then to see things as they are
genesis Zhangsun: *oops sorry not said well- in the absence of the pressure of finding a solution it is easier to see things as they are
Eliza Madrigal nods enthusiastically
Zen Arado: ok
Zen Arado: I am just looking at alternatives
genesis Zhangsun: and perhaps a solution naturally emerges from the ground up- roots as opposed to fruits

doug Sosa: For example, if we ound ourself in a 90 sec pause and felt the biggness of the room, its snese of place, of large scale, of power... well, we would be on to intereting things, just coming out of PaB. The problem is, normally we sem to exclude lots of stuff that is alrady in our experience. That is the place to work, in pur PaB style.

Calvino Rabeni: and if it doesn't look like a solution - it is just as valuable for the understanding to progress in other ways
Maxine Walden: and things as they are may be slightly different for each person
Eos Amaterasu: yes, natural emergence of action, and consensus on that: not from "presecription", but from state of Being (as discussed in the Varela book club :-)
Maxine Walden: yes, Eos
genesis Zhangsun: yes Eos from the context the ethical imperative is presented? :)
Eliza Madrigal nods.. and alive, spontaneous...
doug Sosa: (verela book club?)
Calvino Rabeni: fresh thinking emerges from an "inside" place
Eos Amaterasu: (Eliza & I hosted 3 sessions of a book club on Varela's "Ethical Know-How")
Calvino Rabeni: that may be shared among many
doug Sosa: )
Zen Arado: sounds like systems theory I studied years ago where you consider the 'rich picture' of an entire system
Eden Haiku: Could you say more about that Doug? Feeling the room, the sense of place and then bringing what we understand from this experience into RL?
Calvino Rabeni: Also sometimes called "thick thinking"
doug Sosa: if we sense the space of this room, we begn to think about how such scale is possible, what kind of social world creates it, etc. all coming from paying attention to our experience. no SL-RL distinction implied.
Eden Haiku: I see, thanks.
Eos Amaterasu: including the context, the space in the room, the world, in the PaB small/big moment
Vendy Walpole: I am sorry I have to go to eat, bye!
Eliza Madrigal: :) Bye Vendy
Zen Arado: bye Vendy
Maxine Walden: bye Vendy
Eden Haiku: Bye Vendy.
Vendy Walpole is Offline
Eos Amaterasu slips away, wishing all happy solstice
Maxine Walden: bye Eos
Zen Arado: Bye Eos
Storm Nordwind waves
Wol Euler: bye eos, take care
Eliza Madrigal: :) Bye Eos, happy solstice
Eden Haiku: Happy solstice to you too Eos ;-)
Calvino Rabeni: It seems there are many ways to "do" PAB. which pheno style thinking could reveal
Calvino Rabeni: and much experience doing it
Maxine Walden: Yes, we may be exploring the difference between 'hard edges' of 'having to know' and the softer edges of uncertainty and emergence which can occur when we don't have to adhere to the hard edges
Calvino Rabeni: but difficulty comparing notes about it
Eliza Madrigal: mmm
Calvino Rabeni: not quite a lantuage yet for the somewhat private experiences
Eliza Madrigal: And also exploring the edges between sharing personal stories and sharing explorations... meaning, I'm not sure we can give 'advice' in the traditional sense of the word very often
Eliza Madrigal: which goes back to the formulas idea and the questions about what is therapy in the context of SL?
Maxine Walden: agree, Eliza
Calvino Rabeni: more like "I statements", if you know what those are?
Storm Nordwind: Which seems, to me, to be all part of the fun.
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Calvino Rabeni: therapy a type of goal, an intention of where to go with it and for what purpose
Eliza Madrigal: almost every time I can think of, where I looked at what someone else did and not having clarity just tried to do that, it has been disasterous :)
Calvino Rabeni: The disaster feels like it comes when I don't have clarity myself and speak from there
Calvino Rabeni: so the thing offered as advice, is ungrounded
Eliza Madrigal nods... even when well-intended perhaps...
Calvino Rabeni: yes, temptation to help :)
Storm Nordwind: Few have the clarity. Most have, at least, sincere intention.
Maxine Walden: ungrounded in one's own experience, or from a sense of one's authentic experience
Calvino Rabeni: Right
Zen Arado: meditation gives a way of seeing what needs to be done that is better than thinking in my view
Calvino Rabeni: I call that a form of thinking

Jumping and Dropping and Baggage, Oh My...

Eliza Madrigal: we can share and see overlaps, but yes we can't recreate, is what I'm thinking... so pab exercizes and explorations give us practice 'jumping in'...
Calvino Rabeni: but it goes beyond the conventional restricted meaning
Eliza Madrigal: wherever 'we' are
Calvino Rabeni: In a way, we are changed by jumping into the pool
Eliza Madrigal: in the midst of our own economies, etc :)
genesis Zhangsun: as well as taking a step back
Eden Haiku: 'Jumping' in is a good description of the PaB as I experience it Eliza.
genesis Zhangsun: to appreciate, celebrate as opposed to struggling
Eliza Madrigal: Eden, yes for me too... when I ask what makes pab unique especially
Storm Nordwind: I prefer 'dropping' to 'jumping', as one often 'jumps' still clinging to one's baggage!
Calvino Rabeni: It is possible to have "me, here and now" thinking about something like the economy
Eliza Madrigal: haha... I don't feel clear, cool water when I drop...
Eliza Madrigal: but hm
Eden Haiku: True ;-) Dropping in is less fun though...
Calvino Rabeni: the topic does not force an abstract mode of thinking or a problem solving approach
Maxine Walden: and for me there is 'trust' in dropping
Eliza Madrigal nods
Eliza Madrigal: dropping 'in' maybe :)
Eden Haiku: And in jumping in too!
Maxine Walden: yes
Eliza Madrigal nods
Storm Nordwind: haha Eden - yes, because without a profound sense of fun, little of this can work! :)
Zen Arado: sorry - I am a bit lost
Eliza Madrigal pictures that if one jumps in with the baggage it is likely to loosen and float away

The PaB Playground :)))

Eden Haiku: Yes, Play as Being is grounded in play isn'it?
Maxine Walden: lost, Zen?
Storm Nordwind nods to Eden
doug Sosa: Interesting. In PaB do we keep finding less, or more?
Eden Haiku: Sending beams of loving kindness to Zen. ;-)
Zen Arado: are we still talking about application of pab thinking?
Eliza Madrigal: :))) Eden
Calvino Rabeni: yes, doug
doug Sosa: As we drop concepts we have larger experience.
Calvino Rabeni: and new concepts
Calvino Rabeni: we have more grounded and fresh alive concepts
Maxine Walden: or Pab approach Zen
Zen Arado: to RL problems?
Calvino Rabeni: ah, I think applied PAB does not involve problem-solving
Zen Arado: ok I haven't been around pab long enough
Calvino Rabeni: the "problem" is the thinker:)
Calvino Rabeni: Not really a problem, of course.
Maxine Walden: think we are more focussing on the aspects of the experience of PaB, the dropping, the trust. the opening
Eliza Madrigal: the problems come up... can't help that... the question is 'where' are we when we deal with them, maybe? a playful, pab place to approach from might help
Maxine Walden: We meander in our explorations here, sometimes, Zen and there can be several threads of thought of focus braiding through the conversation...one can get a little lost, I often do
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eden Haiku: Sometimes it does. Just being in touch with empathic people as most PaB practicioners are, the problem fades away.
Calvino Rabeni: Does it make sense that - one purpose of engaging in PAB is the effect on the *experiencer* - a transformation of Subject.
Calvino Rabeni: WHich may mave indirect effects on problems that ere embedded in thw world
Zen Arado: we have to have 'right understanding' ourselves before we dare try to change tings in the world I agree
Maxine Walden: yes, Cal
Eliza Madrigal nods ... not trying to have formula/idea over 'here' and problem over 'there'...
Calvino Rabeni: We can mix it up, Zen, to get the reflections
Eden Haiku: Yes, Zen I too feel lost so many times, no worry about that ;-) I just hide with more or less success ;-)
genesis Zhangsun: yes I think this the process of seeing a solution from the roots level
Eliza Madrigal giggles
genesis Zhangsun: :)
Zen Arado: I heard a Buddhist teacher say we shouldn't try to help ppl unless we are enlightened
Zen Arado: or we would only do more harm
Calvino Rabeni: can't wait - assume one is relatively enlightened
Calvino Rabeni: don't waint intil "someday"
Wol Euler wonders how that teacher defined "help"
genesis Zhangsun: I kind of agree that "trying" to help people is tricky
Maxine Walden: And yet, Zen, sometimes we may ourselves be uncertain about things, and if we proceed with trust bout our good intentions, realizing we are likely never to be fully enlightened...
genesis Zhangsun: :)
Calvino Rabeni: well put Max

genesis Zhangsun: I am reminded of something Stim says about compassion: "Compassion is about seeing that the other person is okay and then to help them see that"

Eliza Madrigal: :) Nice
Calvino Rabeni: nice
Eden Haiku: What were these prayers from the loving kindness parctice you brought to the session Zen. May I feel safe and secure, may I feel happy. That would be the way to help the world , first step.
Maxine Walden: very nice. Afraid I have to go. Very nice conversation
genesis Zhangsun: I think often when we try to "help" we again see a problem that needs to be "fixed" which I agree with Zen can cause futher harm
Zen Arado: yes - and the first step is with ourself
Maxine Walden: bye all
genesis Zhangsun: bye Maxine
Eliza Madrigal: Thank you Maxine
Zen Arado: bye Maxine
doug Sosa: bye.
Eden Haiku: Bye Maxine.
genesis Zhangsun: I will be off too
Eliza Madrigal: Bye doug and gen
genesis Zhangsun: bye everyone!
Eden Haiku: Doug bye bye!
Zen Arado: bye Genesis
Eliza Madrigal: Thanks
genesis Zhangsun: nice discussion
Eden Haiku: And Genesus
Zen Arado: this is my first guardians meeting
Eliza Madrigal: Welcome :)
Calvino Rabeni: Welcome, Zen, good to have you as guardian
Zen Arado: I thought it would be about practical issues
Eden Haiku: ;-)
Zen Arado: my misconception :)
Calvino Rabeni: In a way it is, about practice.
Wol Euler: well, many are.
Eliza Madrigal: haha.. people are so different. I thought this was a very practial session!
Eden Haiku: Do you have questions? Concerns Zen?
Zen Arado: no
Eliza Madrigal: :)

Artful engineering...

Zen Arado: but I have an engineering background
Eden Haiku: Ah, it tells a lot! ;-)
Zen Arado: so tend to want to finish up with solutions
Calvino Rabeni: OK, I have an engineer-like question
Storm Nordwind: Even engineers can be enlightened! :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zen Arado: :)
Eden Haiku: Have an engineer brother, even playing Monopoly is puzzlng with him! ;-)
Eliza Madrigal: hahahah
Zen Arado: well - don't typecast me too quick
Zen Arado: I am an abstract artist now
Eden Haiku: No, sorry... did not mean that Zen...
Zen Arado: :)
Storm Nordwind: That's the best way to engineer (IMHO) :)
Zen Arado: I only did that for a living :)
Calvino Rabeni: I'm also an engineer in background
Zen Arado: engineering i mean
Eden Haiku: With oils and the likes or in 3D Zen?
Zen Arado: acrylic
Zen Arado: on canvas
Eden Haiku: Ah. nice.
Zen Arado: or oils or pastel
Eliza Madrigal: abstracts are quite open ended :)
Eliza Madrigal: even though 'contained'
Eden Haiku: Good contemplation exercice isn 'it?
Zen Arado: well it is also fun
Calvino Rabeni: Engineers think of forms and specifications, procedures ...
Storm Nordwind: The secret of anything open-ended is knowing when to leave it perfect as it is.
Eliza Madrigal: Mmm
Storm Nordwind: Only some of them think that way Calvino
Zen Arado: yes ...knowing when a painting is finished....
Calvino Rabeni: Probably most engineers *can* think that way, as a matter of training and culture
Zen Arado: did one in 15 mins lately
Eliza Madrigal: and perhaps pointing to something never finished
Zen Arado: others take weeks...
Eden Haiku: Well, talking about something finished....
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Calvino Rabeni: Engineers know haw to apply mental discipline of a certain variety
Eden Haiku: My lunch is ready... Thank you all and have a nice Sunday!
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Eden :)
Wol Euler: bye eden, merry christmas
Eliza Madrigal: Enjoy your lunch
Zen Arado: bye Eden
Calvino Rabeni: ZBye :)
Zen Arado: I better make my dinner
Zen Arado: bye all
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Zen
Storm Nordwind: Bye Zen
Calvino Rabeni: Storm, you are invisible to the scanner, I niticed

For some reason this line makes me smile...

Storm Nordwind: Yes. Switch on your boundary lines to understand why
Storm Nordwind: I will change that for you
Calvino Rabeni: I see :)
Storm Nordwind: See?
Calvino Rabeni: looking for the boundary switch
Wol Euler: in the view menu, Property lines
Storm Nordwind: ctrl-alt-shift-P
Storm Nordwind: llSensor does not work over sim boundaries
Calvino Rabeni: Yeah, I just can't see the boundaries - no effect (yet?)
Calvino Rabeni: OK, storm thx for the explanation
Storm Nordwind: Namaste
Eliza Madrigal: Namaste, Storm :) Thank you

Hm, so sharing the space today allowed a bit of a personal knot to unravel, organically...   

Eliza Madrigal is sitting here thinking about 'problems' and how crazy I might go if I tried to 'solve' some of them by thinking :)
Calvino Rabeni: I relate to that
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Calvino Rabeni: and yet, they seem to open up nicely sometimes
Eliza Madrigal: that's probably my filter, in a way
Eliza Madrigal: a distrust for mere thinking
Calvino Rabeni: I don't have that
Eliza Madrigal: yes, they do Calvino... not usually in the way I map out
Calvino Rabeni: But I know when to drop the problem thinking mode, I think
Eliza Madrigal: yes, am realizing that's what makes it a filter Cal... should get friendlier with that perhaps :)
Eliza Madrigal: Wol, all recovered?
Calvino Rabeni: Some people frame "pheno" as knowing how to not-stop-thinking
Eliza Madrigal: Ah.. well that sounds a little ocd :)
Calvino Rabeni: .. that is, thinking that does not get "stuck" on fixed concepts
Calvino Rabeni: DIfferent meaning of "thinking"
Eliza Madrigal: Ah.. yes :)
Wol Euler: sorry, I'm very distracted today, flying in 14 hours
Wol Euler: much better thanks
Eliza Madrigal: oh goodness :) Safe travels!
Wol Euler: ty, I hope so :)
Calvino Rabeni: A broader one, in which awareness winds in and out of experience and formation of ideas
Calvino Rabeni: from a "creative" position
Calvino Rabeni: WOl, are you visiting princeton in USA?
Teann Bellic is Online
Storm Nordwind is Offline
Wol Euler: no, going to Toronto to see family
Wol Euler: no side trips at all this ime
Wol Euler: *time
Eliza Madrigal: May get to rest :)
Wol Euler: tha would be nice
Eliza Madrigal: I should go... kids want to decorate the tree today and put out pumpkins...hehe
Calvino Rabeni: Have fun, :)
Wol Euler: bye eliza, merry christmas
Wol Euler: have a great time
Eliza Madrigal: Merry Christmas Wol, Thanks and you too! Thanks Cal, bye for now