2009.12.22 13:00 - Near Death Experience and Entropy

    The Guardian for this meeting was Mickorod Renard.

    Zen Arado: Hi Zon
        Zon Quar: hi
        Zen Arado: don't know where everyone is tonight
        Zon Quar: lol
        Zon Quar: guardian is missing
        Zen Arado: yes
        Zon Quar: thats an outrage
        Zen Arado: :)
        Zon Quar: xmas is busy time
        Zen Arado: perhaps pplcan't get loggedin
        Zon Quar: hm
        Zon Quar: is there storms
        Zen Arado: there wwas amessages from Linden
        Zon Quar: ah what did it say
        Zen Arado: Dee Linden: Login, transaction and asset issues. Please do not rez no-copy objects or make transactions for the moment.
        Zon Quar: was it long ago
        Zen Arado: 12.59
        Zon Quar: nods..that might esplain
        Zen Arado: have you been online long?
        Zon Quar: 30 min but afk
        Zen Arado: are you a guardian?
        Zon Quar: no
        Zen Arado: oh
        Zon Quar: just visitor..lol
        Zen Arado: I have been at another meeting at Hikari
        Zon Quar: what was it about
        Zen Arado: I have just became a guardian but not sure what you have to do yet
        Zen Arado: just meditation and a chat
        Zen Arado: you never been there?
        Zon Quar: ah u r teh guradian then
        Zon Quar: i dont think so..
        Zen Arado: hoping somebody turns up :)
        Zen Arado: Hikari is a nice place
        Zon Quar: what did u discuss ?
        Zen Arado: not much tonight
        Zen Arado: there were a couple there talking about vampirism
        Zon Quar: lol
        Zon Quar: never quit got that
        Zen Arado: don't know why that stuff is so popular in SL
        Zen Arado: weird
        Zon Quar: mm..yes
        Zen Arado: it is a lot more relaxed than here
        Zen Arado: Moon Fargis runs it
        Zon Quar: ah..here is quite stimulationg discussions sometimes
        Zen Arado: he is also a pab guardian
        Zen Arado: yes
        Zon Quar: im not sure if iv see him here
        Zen Arado: he has a session at 3 ama some day I think
        Zen Arado: ah heres Arabella :)
        Zen Arado: Hi Ara
        arabella Ella: hiya
        Zon Quar: Hi Ara
        arabella Ella: have you had problems loggin on too tonite?
        Zen Arado: I was on a long time before session
        Zen Arado: Hi Cal
        arabella Ella: ah
        arabella Ella: took me ages
        Zen Arado: there was a Linden message
        Zen Arado: Dee Linden: Login, transaction and asset issues. Please do not rez no-copy objects or make transactions for the moment.
        arabella Ella: seems like i have a bag lag too and am getting funny sounds too
        Zen Arado: at 12.59
        arabella Ella: ah so the system has problems it seems
        Zon Quar: any ideas for a subkect ?
        Zen Arado: yes both Zon and I had been logged in for a while already
        Zen Arado: it supposed to be a theme meeting tonight I think
        arabella Ella: i think wol is travelling so there may not be a theme session today
        arabella Ella: then it also depends on who can manage to log on
        arabella Ella: so ... let's think of an appropriate topic?
        Zon Quar: does anyone have a nice problem
        arabella Ella: one too many
        Zon Quar: now
        arabella Ella: he he
        Zen Arado: I waS WATCHING videos about near death experiences earlier
        Zen Arado: is that interesting to anyone?
        arabella Ella: wow did you find them impressive ... what did you think about them?
        arabella Ella: Hiya Calvino
        Zon Quar: hi Cal
        Zen Arado: hang on ...find link
        arabella Ella: ok
        Zen Arado: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_I9-XxBAEsQ&feature=player_embedded
        arabella Ella: if you will excuse me for a few mins i will log out and hope to log in again as the noises i am hearing are weird
        arabella Ella: hope to c u soon
        Zen Arado: it was quite scientific
        Zon Quar: i find tehm interesting but
        Zen Arado: sure
        Zon Quar: as my hypothesis is clear
        Zen Arado: yes Zon?
        Zon Quar: not bringing much info
        Zon Quar: but from scientific point..yes
        Zen Arado: one scientist said " our brain may be a receiver , not producer of consciousness'
        Zon Quar: what do u think of them zen
        Zon Quar: what is ur hyphothesis ? r they "real" ?
        Zen Arado: well....I tend to think they are brain hallucinations
        Zon Quar: why
        Zon Quar: do u think consciousness is only in physical brain ?
        Zen Arado: sorry caps
        Zon Quar: good u didnt shout..lol
        Zen Arado: not so sure now
        Zon Quar: where was consciouness before man existed ?
        Zen Arado: Susan Blackmore says the things we see in NDE's are concistent with the way our vision narrows and we see a bright tunnel
        Zon Quar: might be..
        Zon Quar: but
        Zon Quar: there has been cases
        Zon Quar: where operated patient
        Zon Quar: has made observations
        Zon Quar: that cannot be expalined
        arabella Ella: hiya
        Zon Quar: that way
        Zen Arado: wb Ara
        arabella Ella: its really tough to log in today and i hear Pema sent some email saying he may not manage to log in tonite for theme session unfortunately
        Zen Arado: yes - there wre quite a few of those anecdotal cases in video
        Zen Arado: hard to explain
        Zon Quar: so ..i keep my hypothesis untill a better one is avaolable
        arabella Ella: could you let me have video link again please as i seem to have lost it
        Zen Arado: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_I9-XxBAEsQ&feature=player_embedded
        Zen Arado: Hi Yaku
        Zon Quar: yaku
        arabella Ella: Hiya Yaku
        Zen Arado: not fair just giving a link when no one has had time to watch it
        arabella Ella: thanks Zen
        Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
        Zen Arado: take s so long to watch videos too !
        Calvino Rabeni: Hiya Yaku-san
        Zen Arado: there was an interesting theory fro two scientists
        arabella Ella: seems like there are six parts to it ... would take some time
        Zen Arado: about how when you get to quantum levels space becomes not smooth but rough
        arabella Ella: would you like to share them with us Zen please?
        Zen Arado: like looking down on the ocean and then swimming in it
        Zen Arado: so there can be patterns
        Zen Arado: and this is likened to consciousness
        Zon Quar: energy doesnt vanish
        Zon Quar: consciosuness is energy
        Zen Arado: sorry not very good explanation
        Zen Arado: should have taken notes
        Zon Quar: so why couldn it move on
        Zon Quar: like energy
        Zen Arado: yes exactly Zon
        Zon Quar: logical to me
        Zen Arado: why restrict it to our brain?
        Zon Quar: more logical than it would just evaporate and vanish
        Zen Arado: Hi Storm
        arabella Ella: it makes a lot of sense though
        arabella Ella: what you just said Zen
        Storm Nordwind: Hi
        arabella Ella: as after all we are energy arent we
        Zen Arado: yes
        arabella Ella: and energy is meant to be constant in this world as we know it
        arabella Ella: so energy cannot just dissipate can it?
        Zon Quar: ni it just cnages form
        Zen Arado: well it does dissipate
        Zon Quar: changes form and state
        Zon Quar: ?
        Zen Arado: according to laws of thermdynamics
        Zon Quar: hm
        Storm Nordwind: Are we talking about entropy?
        Zen Arado: yes
        Zon Quar: not sure if i agree on total scale
        Calvino Rabeni: Seems we are more than energy - we are patterns of energy - that is, something like information
        Zen Arado: talking about near death experiences
        Zen Arado: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_I9-XxBAEsQ&feature=player_embedded
        arabella Ella: i must admit i dont know much about physics
        Zon Quar: if entropy would exist
        Zon Quar: only
        Zon Quar: how coem we got born
        Zon Quar: and organised
        Zon Quar: so well
        Zon Quar: so t ithin some oter force oi missing
        Zen Arado: but entropy is a general ttrend
        Zon Quar: it doesnt explain cosmos..organising ability we see around us..it doesn expain the big bang..where did it come from, it there is only enthropy..so i think enthropy is only one side of the coin...
        Zen Arado: entropy starts after the big bang ?
        Zen Arado: need Pema here :)
        Zon Quar: entroby..come together again ...enthropy ..come togtehre again...
        Yakuzza Lethecus: :)
        arabella Ella: yes or perhaps Storm could help out here please?
        Zen Arado: it must all start up again at some point
        arabella Ella: what is the link ... excuse my ignorance ... between entropy and energy?
        Zon Quar: perhaps we need to decide ourself..lol
        Yakuzza Lethecus: what did you educate ppl in storm ??
        Storm Nordwind disclaims any knowledge
        Storm Nordwind chuckles
        arabella Ella: oh you are so humble Storm aren't you?
        Zen Arado: I only studied it in engineering
        Zon Quar: cosmic dance of energy and consciouness..going on forever and ever
        Zen Arado: and you only need to know that you always lose energy every time you transfer it
        arabella Ella: yes so energy is constant as it can be transferred right?
        arabella Ella: gained or lost?
        Zen Arado: no always some is lost
        Zon Quar: whre does it go
        Zen Arado: because enery transfer is never 100 % efficient
        Calvino Rabeni: not lost, it gets dissipated and goes somewhere else
        Zon Quar: nods
        Storm Nordwind agrees with Calvino
        Zen Arado: ok
        arabella Ella: yes i agree with Calvino
        Calvino Rabeni: Lost from a local place, but in the greater universe constant
        Zen Arado: well the universe is running down isn't it?
        Zon Quar: ?
        Zon Quar: how so
        Zen Arado: expanding
        Calvino Rabeni: entropy increasing overall - that is what "running down" means
        Zon Quar: or expanding and contractiong ?
        Zen Arado: our sun will lose it's power
        Zon Quar: in rythm
        arabella Ella: hey i am watching the video and one of the doctors is from here from Malta but based in Southampton ...in part 2 of video
        Zon Quar: i think the western thinking of time as a linear is not correct
        Calvino Rabeni: the current most common physics theory is universe is expanding faster and faster
        Zen Arado: what happens to time if humans aren't here?
        Calvino Rabeni: but these theories can change
        Zon Quar: yes
        Zon Quar: no one knows how long that expanding goes on
        Zen Arado: no
        Calvino Rabeni: time loses one if its greatest fans, if humans are not here
        Zen Arado: :)
        Zen Arado: we invented it
        Zon Quar: so following indian thought
        Zon Quar: time is a cycle
        Zon Quar: would mena
        Zen Arado: one of a number of structure we put on reality
        Zon Quar: rythmical expansion and contraction
        Zen Arado: anyway I am losing my narrow view of what consciousness is
        Zen Arado: not so sure it is contained neatly in the brain
        Calvino Rabeni: how can you choose, between different theories - indian and scientific?
        Calvino Rabeni: The conscious
        Calvino Rabeni: sorry, slip.
        arabella Ella: the scientific does not seem to explain consciousness at all
        Zen Arado: Hi Mick
        Calvino Rabeni: if consciousness isn't a "substance", it doesn't have to be contained
        Zon Quar: scinetifif is what we know today..
        arabella Ella: Hiya Mick
        Mickorod Renard: hiya..so sorry..loggin probs
        arabella Ella: i believe we need new language and a new way of investigating stuff to perhaps understand better what consciousness is all about
        Zen Arado: yes Ara
        Zen Arado: like Rorty says
        arabella Ella: yes
        Zen Arado: new metaphors :)
        arabella Ella: altho Rorty is a bit of a sensationalist in his own way
        Zen Arado: yes
        arabella Ella: John Searle says so too
        arabella Ella: and some who are into quantum physics
        Zen Arado: just leave it to poets and writers :)
        arabella Ella: :)
        Zen Arado: forget philosophy and science
        arabella Ella: well even scientists use metaphorical language dont they?
        Zon Quar: science comes always slowly
        Zon Quar: it has to test
        Zon Quar: test
        arabella Ella: i dont believe in creating distinctions between disciplines
        arabella Ella: interdisciplinarity is the way forward
        Storm Nordwind slips away to a meeting
        Zon Quar: poets often go faster ahead
        Zon Quar: and science verifies that 200 year after
        Zen Arado: agree Ara
        Calvino Rabeni: interdisciplinarity or transdisciplinarity - are where knowledge is advancing
        Calvino Rabeni: knowledge-about-knowledge, I meant
        Zen Arado: scientists use their subjectivity too I am learning
        Zen Arado: in phenom
        Zen Arado: not all objective theories
        Calvino Rabeni: the issue is more acute in social sciences since the scientists may be their own subjects
        arabella Ella: the problem about moving forward with interdisciplinarity is that most researchers are entrenched in very narrow ways of perceiving the world ... or their own topic ... generally speaking of course
        Calvino Rabeni: like in psychotherapy
        Zen Arado: what about the risk of shallowness though?
        Zen Arado: you can't go deeply into a lot od disciplines
        Calvino Rabeni: yes, they have to set limits, not pretend to cover everthing
        arabella Ella: also there is an obsession with being scientific ... as psychology for example tries to make itself more 'scientific' in an attempt to be better accepted or taken more seriously
        Zen Arado: wider or deeper.....
        Calvino Rabeni: so the best is if they have 1 or 2 deep areas, and shallow knowledge of others, plus good dialogue skills
        arabella Ella: communication is key
        Calvino Rabeni: yes
        Zen Arado: yes
        Zen Arado: Hi Lila
        Mickorod Renard: hi Lila
        Lila Sideways: hello everyone
        Yakuzza Lethecus: hey lia
        arabella Ella: hiya Lila
        Zon Quar: well it also depends on the paragigma
        Zon Quar: is it based on nthropy
        Zon Quar: only
        Zon Quar: or matter based consciousness
        arabella Ella: paradigms are there for paradigm shifts to occur
        Zon Quar: that effects ur results
        Zon Quar: yes when older paradigma cant explain all
        Zen Arado: but the world has to be ready for them I think
        Calvino Rabeni: part of the paradigm shift is towards "information"
        Zon Quar: like in NDE
        Zen Arado: yes
        Zon Quar: they could cngae the paradigma
        Calvino Rabeni: which means, to consider the arrangements of matter as a primary concern
        arabella Ella: what is NDE?
        Zon Quar: near death experience
        Zen Arado: science is becoming less materialist since quantom theory was discovered
        Zon Quar: nods to zen
        Zon Quar: but common view outside top physisist tends still to be materialistic
        Zen Arado: NDE's are usually nice experiences
        arabella Ella: ah
        Zen Arado: which is hopeful anyway
        Zen Arado: ppl feel surrounded by love
        Zon Quar: so we tend to think NDEs as hallucinations
        Zen Arado: many change their whole lifestyle after
        arabella Ella: why hallucinations?
        Zon Quar: as it ffits better to current paradigma
        Calvino Rabeni: Imagine you gave up all your sufferings, that would seem pleasant
        Zon Quar: based on consciousness exosting only in our brain
        Zen Arado: current paradigm is changing fast
        Zen Arado: but they always do
        Calvino Rabeni: My impression is, consciousness studies are not converging.
        Zen Arado: moving to more spiritual paradigm maybe
        Zen Arado: no Cal?
        Calvino Rabeni: Or not, depending on who you ask.
        Calvino Rabeni: Well, I think the paradigm shift is partly driven by new techniques
        Calvino Rabeni: like brain scans, and knowledge of the way the brain works
        Calvino Rabeni: That will give confirmation to the physicalists
        Calvino Rabeni: but at the same time, show that the process is much more complex
        Calvino Rabeni: than previously thought, which will also encourage the spiritual viewpoint
        Zon Quar: waves for goodnight...
        Calvino Rabeni: Bye!
        arabella Ella: nite Zon
        Lila Sideways: good bye everyone
        Mickorod Renard: bye Zon
        Zen Arado: bye Zon
        Lila Sideways: happy holidays
        Zen Arado: I better go
        Mickorod Renard: bye Zen
        Zen Arado: should be reading up on this stuff instead of talking
        arabella Ella: :)
        Zen Arado: about things I know little about :)
        Mickorod Renard: there is so much to read up on
        Zen Arado: bye
        Mickorod Renard: byeeeeee
        arabella Ella: bye Zen ... nite
        Mickorod Renard: what with wok,,time,,phenem,,Pab
        arabella Ella: :)
        Mickorod Renard: dreams
        arabella Ella: are you interested in consciousness too Calvino?
        Calvino Rabeni: Yes
        arabella Ella: ah ... me too
        Mickorod Renard: I am interested in a period of unconciousness at the moment
        Calvino Rabeni: There is "too much" to read, of course.
        arabella Ella: i find it a pity how people with a more scientific bent seems to try to do away with consciousness as such
        Calvino Rabeni: GOod luck Mick! :)
        arabella Ella: oh yes the digital age gives us even more stuff to read than we could in a whole lifetime
        Calvino Rabeni: Well, it is OK with me, if they have a good reason for doing that
        Calvino Rabeni: But often don't
        Calvino Rabeni: IT is a challenge to be discriminating about what to read
        arabella Ella: i think there are more than enough reasons for believing there is something more than scientists explain
        arabella Ella: and that often leads to consciousness
        Calvino Rabeni: Well, the theorizer can look at themselves and their assumptions in the investigation
        Calvino Rabeni: I think that is part of interdisciplinarity
        arabella Ella: not sure what you mean Calvino
        Mickorod Renard: I often think about what sort of conciousness would someone in the position of God, have installed in us as humans
        Calvino Rabeni: that is, to declare their metaphysics on the way into the dialogue or study
        Mickorod Renard: from an AI position
        Calvino Rabeni: as best they understand them
        arabella Ella: ah
        Calvino Rabeni: not easy
        Calvino Rabeni: say more, Mick?
        Mickorod Renard: well
        Yakuzza Lethecus: good night
        arabella Ella: nite Yaku
        Mickorod Renard: I was thinkin about whether an Ai would be similar to us,,say by the 60th century
        Mickorod Renard: nite yaku
        arabella Ella: indistinguishable surely
        Calvino Rabeni: BTW, here is a huge collection on consciousess http://consc.net/online/
        arabella Ella: oh the chalmers stuff?
        Calvino Rabeni: similar or not
        Calvino Rabeni: YEs
        Calvino Rabeni: his collection, not just his point of view
        arabella Ella: he also has ome good youtube videos
        Calvino Rabeni: question is, is there more then one way to "do" consciousness
        Mickorod Renard: I often think of the lil inticacies of the human mind,,even the madness,,and think that they would be like failsafe devices in an ai
        arabella Ella: but on youtube he generally discusses what made him famous
        Calvino Rabeni: then the AI's might have a different way to do it
        arabella Ella: his distinction that consciousness is a 'hard problem' in philosophy
        Mickorod Renard: rebooting systems
        arabella Ella: hard problems as opposed to soft problems
        Calvino Rabeni: Those fringe things can also be seen as an exploration of limits
        Calvino Rabeni: that is, experiments for the benefit of the whole
        Calvino Rabeni: I don't buy the "hard problem" definition
        Mickorod Renard: self anlysing ethics packages loaded up from creation
        Calvino Rabeni: The interesting thing is - it all evolved - and had to handle contingencies - rather than having an outside designer
        arabella Ella: the use of the term 'hard problem' is just another way of using metaphor i guess
        Calvino Rabeni: Kind of like - software we use - no one designed it "as a whole" - it basically evolved
        Calvino Rabeni: Well, other problems may be significant, and just as "hard", so that term tempts people unnecessarily to focus on that one aspect of theory
        Calvino Rabeni: which might be a side track anyway
        arabella Ella: yes
        Mickorod Renard: has it evolved..or is it just the information that is loaded in now is more modern,,yet the hardware is the same as before?
        Mickorod Renard: I am not trying to persuade anyone to believe in God,,but use it as a means of thought
        Calvino Rabeni: If "god" could redesign all human software code to current needs, it would be *much* simpler
        Calvino Rabeni: I understand
        Calvino Rabeni: OR *much* more capable
        Mickorod Renard: well,,are you sure?
        Calvino Rabeni: About it being simpler to do the same thing, or more powerful?
        Mickorod Renard: well,,the human brain is well capable of more,,so why was it so great in the first place?
        Mickorod Renard: if it was for doin basic things like grunting and picking berries?
        Calvino Rabeni: not so basic - AI had a hard time doing robots, for instance
        arabella Ella: i dont think you understood what Mick meant Calvino
        Calvino Rabeni: The greatness perhaps is that people don't realize the complexity of that they do
        arabella Ella: the human brain is so incredibly complex
        arabella Ella: surely it was made for greater stuff than we actually do today
        arabella Ella: and greater stuff than we did when we roamed the african savanah
        Mickorod Renard: thanks Ara
        arabella Ella: :)
        Mickorod Renard: I am struggling at the moment with focusing,,pc probs
        Calvino Rabeni: Not sure how to respond - what kind of "greater", and are you sure what was done before shouldn't be considered "great"?
        arabella Ella: may i ask you a question Calvino please?
        Calvino Rabeni: Yes of course
        arabella Ella: unrelated to what we said
        arabella Ella: your name fascinates me
        arabella Ella: did you have a reason for choosing it?
        Mickorod Renard: I think what all animals and birds do is great
        Mickorod Renard: but clearly what enabled humans to develope was the advanced state of the human brain
        Mickorod Renard: in comparison
        Calvino Rabeni: I was using it in RL groups also - my given middle name is calvin, and people liked to put O onto that name - I liked it because I like european sensibilities, so for those reasons I adopted it in SL
        arabella Ella: ah
        arabella Ella: i see
        arabella Ella: it fascinates me as there is an italian author with the name italo calvino ... it is a surname there
        Mickorod Renard: nice
        arabella Ella: and also due to the connotation with calvinism
        arabella Ella: besides the reason you give of course ... the name calvin
        Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I know both those connections -
        arabella Ella: ah
        arabella Ella: so you are well read :)
        Calvino Rabeni: In USA, there was a "geek culture" - maybe now worldwide
        Calvino Rabeni: liking information, reading, machines
        arabella Ella: ah ha
        Calvino Rabeni: there was also a cartoon character boy named "calvin"
        Calvino Rabeni: so the name got popular on account of that
        arabella Ella: yes
        arabella Ella: i remember that too
        Calvino Rabeni: after being out of fashion for a long tome
        Calvino Rabeni: *time
        arabella Ella: i like the idea of a geek culture
        Calvino Rabeni: yes, it was an interesting development for sure
        arabella Ella: but seems like people have now gone in one of the two extremes ... i mean to both extremes
        arabella Ella: either totally laid back
        arabella Ella: or geeky
        arabella Ella: sorry lag my chat does not always come out as i type it but changes sequence sometimes
        Mickorod Renard: ok,,I am off home now
        Calvino Rabeni: steve martin should be called a patron saint of that culture
        Mickorod Renard: plants to tend to
        arabella Ella: which side of the spectrum would you place steve martin then?
        Calvino Rabeni: BFN, Mick!
        Mickorod Renard: dead men dont wear plaid
        Mickorod Renard: bye calvino,,,Ara
        arabella Ella: bye Mick
        Calvino Rabeni: he wrote a lot - Born Standing Up is good.
        Calvino Rabeni: Also "Pure Drivel"
        Mickorod Renard: hey, I thought I wrote that
        Calvino Rabeni: See you later, Mick :)
        Mickorod Renard: hehe
        arabella Ella: :)
        arabella Ella: i must go too it is nearly midnight here
        Mickorod Renard: bye
        arabella Ella: nite Mick Calvino!
        Calvino Rabeni: Good night, sleep well :

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