2009.12.23 13:00 - Inner guides

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    Bertram Jacobus: hey ! :-) zon ! ;-)

    Zon Quar: quiet

    Bertram Jacobus: yes. nice :-)

    Zon Quar: hehe

    Zon Quar: xmas peace is coming closer

    Bertram Jacobus: one day before christmas

    Bertram Jacobus: similar thoughts ...

    Bertram Jacobus: i never had a chance to ask before : where do you live ? :-)

    Zon Quar: finland. and u ?

    Bertram Jacobus: germany, cologne :-)

    Zon Quar: ah been there once

    Bertram Jacobus: oh. nice :-)

    Zon Quar: seen the cathetrhral

    Bertram Jacobus: number one for all visitors in cologne ... ;-)

    Zon Quar: yes

    Zon Quar: very impressive

    Bertram Jacobus: yes. quite big

    Bertram Jacobus: you are member in many groups (!) ...

    Zon Quar: yes..not many operate though

    Zon Quar: havent checked the list lately

    Bertram Jacobus: i see ... but "sounds" interesting, that list ... ;-)

    Zon Quar: well it interests me too..lol

    Bertram Jacobus: hehe - i never found so many intersting groups here (!) ...

    Zon Quar: this one is nice discussion palce

    Zon Quar: very stimulationg views

    Bertram Jacobus: yes. and a link to meditation (?) ...

    Zon Quar: from many perspectives

    Zon Quar: and a scent of scientifid approach

    Zon Quar: that i like

    Bertram Jacobus: yes. i also appreciate the combination of science and spirituality

    Zon Quar: do u know any similar places here ?


    Bertram Jacobus: no. in YOUR profile there seem to be some groups which should have such contents - like kira ? sceptical buddhists ? and some others ... no ?

    Zon Quar: Hi Cal

    Zon Quar: yup

    Calvino Rabeni: Good day Bert and Zon

    Bertram Jacobus: hi cal. we speak about interesting groups. zon asked - for similar ones like here ...

    Calvino Rabeni: ok

    Zon Quar: sceptical buddhism is nice one

    Bertram Jacobus: and before we found it quite silent here today ... :-)

    Bertram Jacobus: do they have meetings too ?

    Zon Quar: yes sundays

    Zon Quar: a lecture

    Zon Quar: usually

    Zon Quar: with comments

    Bertram Jacobus: ah. which time ?

    Zon Quar: and discussion

    Zon Quar: 1.30 pm

    Zon Quar: sl time

    Bertram Jacobus: oh. overlapping with here ...

    Zon Quar: and another time for US

    Bertram Jacobus: what does the "tell me a story" above you mean cal ? :-)

    Calvino Rabeni: "tell me a story" is the group tag line for the Storytellers Guild of Second Life

    Calvino Rabeni: But I put it into the hovertext because I like it

    Zon Quar: yes..its a good one

    Calvino Rabeni: It means, I like to hear people tell stories about what is happening in their life

    Bertram Jacobus: storyteller guild ! ... how does that work ? :-)

    Bertram Jacobus: heyy ara ... :-)

    arabella Ella: Hiya!

    Calvino Rabeni: :) I don't really know it is active... most the groups I have are for announcements

    Zon Quar: and to me it seems..that is what we r mostly doing..telling stories

    Calvino Rabeni: I go to the events when something interesting comes up

    Zon Quar: hi ara

    Calvino Rabeni: but there aren't good relationships as here in PaB and Kira

    Bertram Jacobus: okay. i see

    Calvino Rabeni: I used to go to the OSHO island events

    Zon Quar: there havent been much lately

    Calvino Rabeni: I like the island

    arabella Ella: whats that Calvino?

    Calvino Rabeni: right, not like before

    Zon Quar: me 2

    Bertram Jacobus: what do they do there ?

    Calvino Rabeni: They talk Osho philosophy. Osho was a teacher

    Calvino Rabeni: who brought together a lot of knowledge of meditation

    Zon Quar: very good one too

    arabella Ella: what sort of philosophy is it?

    Calvino Rabeni: to westerners.

    Calvino Rabeni: Synthesis of many eastern traditions

    Bertram Jacobus: yes. the main europe center of him is in my town (cologne) - so he is quite well known here

    arabella Ella: intruiging

    Calvino Rabeni: He didn't get enough respect while alive

    Zon Quar: and he had one feature i like that is missing in many teachings

    Calvino Rabeni: but now has good reputation in India, I believe

    arabella Ella: which is Zon?

    Zon Quar: sense of humour

    Calvino Rabeni: YEs

    Zon Quar: very nice jokes

    Zon Quar: lol

    Bertram Jacobus: yes

    Bertram Jacobus: sometimes very funny :o)

    Zon Quar: but not for those who r easily disrturbed

    arabella Ella: I must admit i have never heard of him

    Bertram Jacobus: his former name was "bhagwan" ...

    Calvino Rabeni: He actually is one of the worlds most published authors

    arabella Ella: cool

    Zon Quar: rajneesh

    Calvino Rabeni: in terms of volume

    Bertram Jacobus: and "shri rajneesh" ... ;o)

    Calvino Rabeni: I knew many followers - and still do -but am not one

    Zon Quar: he has dicated about 600 books ?

    Zon Quar: dictated

    Calvino Rabeni: they still have a good sense of community

    Calvino Rabeni: one of his books was recommended by a buddhist friend as a good translation and explanation of a tantra book

    Calvino Rabeni: so in other words, he wasn't just making stuff up

    Calvino Rabeni: but he did synthesize it for westerners

    Zon Quar: no..

    Bertram Jacobus: my impression was, his community was VERY emotional and body - orientated . that was not so much my way ... hm -

    Zon Quar: he is very clear

    Calvino Rabeni: http://www.amazon.com/Book-Secrets-K.../dp/0312180586

    Zon Quar: at least to me

    Calvino Rabeni: anyone want the log?

    Bertram Jacobus: i did not remember how to take it (the log) - and if someone else would do it, i was happy ...

    Calvino Rabeni: I have it

    Bertram Jacobus: i saw - "ty" :-)

    Calvino Rabeni: you just touch the recorder and a dialog appears

    Bertram Jacobus: ah. i touched the water before - and nothing happend ... :o)

    Calvino Rabeni: storm is just in time for silence

    arabella Ella: Hiya Storm

    Zon Quar: hi Storm

    Bertram Jacobus: hey ! :-) storm ... :-)

    Storm Nordwind: Hi

    Calvino Rabeni: Hi i heard that


    Bertram Jacobus: and qt :-)

    Bertram Jacobus: ah. okay ! silence in sl - great ... ( i mean refering to storm) ...

    Qt Core: hi all

    arabella Ella: ciao Qt

    Zon Quar: qt

    arabella Ella: hope you are not too freezing Qt

    arabella Ella: or you Bertram

    arabella Ella: or Zon

    Qt Core: no, warmer today, 1,5C at the moment

    Bertram Jacobus: why should that be ara ? :-)

    arabella Ella: the news is full of stuff about Europe freezing and places with no power

    Storm Nordwind: Warm here too. -2C. Although snow is falling.

    Bertram Jacobus: ah. no. not in germany ! ;-)

    arabella Ella: here it is still warm still around 15 - 18 celsius

    Qt Core: last week was colder, the problem was the snow

    Qt Core: this week

    Bertram Jacobus: in germany the electricity never drops out :o) - it's such an ordinary country ! ... ;-)

    Qt Core: one more reason for going to the retreat :-) :-(

    arabella Ella: yes Qt you should consider joining us too :)

    arabella Ella: Hiya Yaku

    Qt Core: this morning the power went out in Milan central station for i couple hours i've heard

    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone

    Bertram Jacobus: hey ! :-) yaku ! ... :-)

    Zon Quar: yaky

    arabella Ella: i had lunch in front of TV earlier and they said Bologna was isolated and there were places with no electricity in UK and in Italy too

    arabella Ella: i would like to bring up a topic if it is ok with you all

    Yakuzza Lethecus: sure

    arabella Ella: what do you think of the concept of inner guides?

    Qt Core: better than remember the snow , yes please :-)

    arabella Ella: :)

    Calvino Rabeni: I like that topic ara

    Yakuzza Lethecus: can you elaborate on the guides ?

    arabella Ella: it seems to be a recurring theme, in Christianity there is the guardian angel for example

    arabella Ella: other people, I just looked up OSHO believe in an inner guide i see

    arabella Ella: so that triggered the question and curiousity to learn more

    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey fef

    Bertram Jacobus: i think ... i never had much contact to such guides ... hm -

    Storm Nordwind: The guardian angel I think is seen as an external guide

    Zon Quar: i call it intuition

    arabella Ella: external to some extent but spiritual Storm

    arabella Ella: and non visible

    arabella Ella: Hiya Fef

    Storm Nordwind: Visible to some! :)

    Fefonz Quan: Hi all, sorry for getting here so late

    Qt Core: isn't the guardian angel just that, a guardian and not a "real" guide, more passive to say it another way ?

    arabella Ella: depends Qt

    Bertram Jacobus: hi fef ! :-)

    Bertram Jacobus: and storm - you are not in silence ? ;-)

    arabella Ella: as kids brought up in the Catholic tradition we were taught to trust our guardian angel and to allow the angel to guide us along the 'good' path

    Storm Nordwind: Yes it depends on the definition you want. These things range from intuition to gods - quite a spectrum!

    arabella Ella: but many people from different faiths have brought up the topic of inner guide with me

    Qt Core: a personificayion of coscience (as in the moral compass) ?

    Zon Quar: i dont exclude guides .influences..thoughts..ur inner self

    arabella Ella: not only consciience also companion and friend

    arabella Ella: a friendly spirit that guides us along our path

    Zon Quar: this has a link to yesterday discussion on i sther econsciousness without physical body

    Qt Core: the little bug trying to guide Pinocchio ;-)

    arabella Ella: to some extent yes

    Zon Quar: and if there is

    arabella Ella: if i may ask does anyone here feel they have a spiritual inner guide?

    Zon Quar: ther might be conscious entities

    Fefonz Quan: I don't

    Zon Quar: without physicaal body

    Zon Quar: that could communicate with us

    arabella Ella nods

    Storm Nordwind is sorry but he is on and off the phone

    arabella Ella: oh no Storm would be great to hear your opinion on this :)

    arabella Ella: and yours Calvino since you said you found the topic interesting

    Storm Nordwind: I have external spritual guides that I can communicate with and an intuition that I can acess

    Bertram Jacobus: in former times, i thought sometimes about the guardian angel. and often said, mine was lazy but reliable : always startet to work, when it was nessecairy ... :-)

    arabella Ella: :)

    arabella Ella: interesting thought ... ehrm ... a lazy guardian angel

    Zon Quar: i like the way Socrates put is..he had ann inner guide that never told him what to do, but waht not to do

    Zon Quar: if that guide was silent, he did what he wanted

    Fefonz Quan: it's interesting, for me it is a quite unfamiliar concept

    arabella Ella: do you know where that is Zon ... in which book?

    Calvino Rabeni: Actually in my view there are degrees of faith - I am agnostic about guides, but give them active energy and try to cultivate them

    Calvino Rabeni: But not a true literal believer, quite

    Fefonz Quan nods to calvino

    arabella Ella: yes i dont think you need to belong to any faith to believe in inner guides which are spiritual entities but not necessarily religious ... only they seem to be a sort of archetype somehow

    Calvino Rabeni: agree, ara

    Fefonz Quan feels he can bump into guides in any other corner,

    Qt Core: i'm thinking about the more annoying thought layer/observer i have, but i can't really call it a guide


    Fefonz Quan: but not something 'out there' walking with you

    Zon Quar: dont remeber which book i read it from ara

    arabella Ella: please say more if you could Qt ...and they could be 'inner' Fef not necessarily external to us

    Fefonz Quan: i understand ara, but then the

    Storm Nordwind is now off the phone (he thinks!)

    Bertram Jacobus: hi genesis :-)

    arabella Ella: Hiya Gen

    Fefonz Quan: inner feels like intuition rather than another entity

    Fefonz Quan: Hey Gen!

    arabella Ella: some people call them spirit guides

    genesis Zhangsun: Hey Fefonz!

    genesis Zhangsun: Hey everyone!

    arabella Ella: and some say they are people we may have known or who knew us who have passed away but whose spirit guides us

    Zon Quar: my aim is to get in touch with the cosmic whole...what it wants me to do..so whether ther is an entity guiding me is not so relvant..but how i receive correctly what the whole wnats meto de

    Storm Nordwind: that is possible

    Storm Nordwind: ara

    Calvino Rabeni: it is interesting to consider ego and soul as guides

    Qt Core: i always feel like there are several observer observing, commenting and vetoing my spontaneous thought, before they become action/word, one of them, the moral compas may be the guyde you are speaking about

    Zon Quar: to do

    arabella Ella nods to Qt

    Storm Nordwind: I had a guide that brought me to Buddhism Zon. So they do seem to have a use! ')

    Calvino Rabeni: or vehicles, but they have some intelligence so maybe some entity-ness

    arabella Ella: Gen we are discussing inner guides or spirit guides or guardian angels ... an inner guiding spirit

    Bertram Jacobus: (there is a movie with the titel "michael" - it´s protagonist is an very unusual angel, played by john travolta - very human in best way and amiable) ...

    Qt Core: often this one and the lazy one fight ;-)

    arabella Ella: I would love to hear more about your experience Storm please ... my intuition tells me you have lots to say :)

    Zon Quar: or ue guide ?

    Storm Nordwind: hmm... yes I probably do... but really don't want to dominate

    Fefonz Quan: do dominate Storm :)

    arabella Ella: i for one dont mind you dominating on this topic at all :)

    Calvino Rabeni: yes, please dominate us :)

    Zon Quar: please do

    Storm Nordwind gets the whip out for Cal

    arabella Ella: sounds like we are all submissive to Storm tonite

    Calvino Rabeni: By popular demand :)

    Storm Nordwind chuckles

    Zon Quar: lol

    Zon Quar: no whip please

    Storm Nordwind: Where do I start? As far as I am concerned there are external entities that act as guides...

    Storm Nordwind: but I only say that because I can often establish 2 way communication with them

    Storm Nordwind: But these entities take many forms

    Bertram Jacobus: hey ! :-) fox ... :-)

    arabella Ella listens attentively

    Fox Monacular: Hello everyone

    Storm Nordwind: And may be Auntie Mabel, who is well meaning but is just as crazed as she was when in physical body...

    arabella Ella: Hiya Fox

    Storm Nordwind: Or it may be a Buddha!

    Storm Nordwind: Quite a spectrum really

    arabella Ella: is there more than one Storm?

    arabella Ella: and can you identify them?

    Storm Nordwind: Sure there's very many, and I can identify them to a large degree, with a bit of intelligence and a lot of experience

    Fefonz Quan nods

    Fefonz Quan: i just thought this kind of guides is different than guardian angle

    Storm Nordwind: There are also angels too...

    Zon Quar: so non physical worls is as ful of teachers as physical one ?

    Storm Nordwind: I used to have things to do with them a decade or so ago, but they are non-human

    Storm Nordwind: Zon, it's as full of entities as physical one. Some good, some bad, most indifferent

    Zon Quar: nods

    Bertram Jacobus: i'll leave - have a nice time all - and may all beings be happy please . ty !

    Storm Nordwind: Namaste

    Zon Quar: bye bert

    Fefonz Quan: Night Bert

    arabella Ella: nite Bert

    Bertram Jacobus: ty all again

    Qt Core: bye bert

    arabella Ella: so Storm you have had contact in the past with Angels ... wow ... please say more if you could :)

    Storm Nordwind: And just as in the physical world, someone who guides you for a while might "hand you over" to someone else later

    Storm Nordwind: Many years ago I used to do healing with the White Eagle Lodge. They specifcally and deliberately work with angels

    Storm Nordwind: If you have some small level of vision like me, you can see them

    arabella Ella: see them?

    arabella Ella: or sense them?

    Storm Nordwind: Sure see them. Most people can sense. A few can see

    arabella Ella: that is so amazing

    Zon Quar: logical to me

    Storm Nordwind: But like most people, they can choose (to some extent) whether you see them!

    Storm Nordwind: ;)

    arabella Ella: is it appropriate to ask ... what did you see?

    Storm Nordwind: The point is not the seeing. That is just showy tricks. The point is whether the contact is of use or service


    Storm Nordwind: It depends on the being. Many can present themselves in easy to see ways for us (thankfully)

    arabella Ella: so Storm when you meet people in RL can you tell whether they too have a spirit guide or not?

    Storm Nordwind is a die-hard pragmatist and is not impressed just with the seeing. But it is a useful tool

    arabella Ella: i guess the seeing is a gift somehow

    Storm Nordwind: If the spirit guide wishes their presence to be known, yes ara

    arabella Ella: an additional gift

    Calvino Rabeni: I have similar opinion

    arabella Ella: yes?

    Calvino Rabeni: similar to what storm expressed about pragmatism

    Calvino Rabeni: and tool

    Calvino Rabeni: but it isn't detached

    Storm Nordwind: It is like dowsing or water divining. I seems to work and it's very useful if you live in isolated aprts of the country. But I have no idea how it works. It just does. That's another aspect of the pragmatism

    Calvino Rabeni: yes

    arabella Ella: but is it somehow like a skill that you develop and hone with time patience and experience ... or does it just come naturally?

    Storm Nordwind: It's not something I usually talk about. It doesn't normally help others to know. And they is so much prejudice - even if I'm not to be put on a fire this lifetime!

    arabella Ella: :)

    Storm Nordwind: Seeing is part talent and part training and part practice, like anything else

    arabella Ella: thanks for sharing though and i still have more than 101 questions to go ...

    Calvino Rabeni: part of being pragmatic is - how does one relate to tools - do they distance or limit you in some way

    Storm Nordwind: All things can do that Cal. If you let them. It's possible not to

    Calvino Rabeni: yes my point is that

    Calvino Rabeni: to be sensitive to it

    Storm Nordwind: By the way ara, at dowsing workshop I found I could teach betwen 1/3 to 1/2 to do succssful water divining (as beginners) - admittedly from a self-selecting group

    Storm Nordwind: Yes Cal

    arabella Ella: wow i would love to attend a workshop like that with you ... a good friend of mine used to do divining at the prehistoric temples here and it was amazing to watch him do it ... caputuring the energy

    Yakuzza Lethecus: good night everyone

    arabella Ella: nite Yaku

    Fefonz Quan: nite Yaku

    Fefonz Quan was just about to ask what is water diving

    arabella Ella: he could also see peoples auras ... which is something else which i guess you can do too Storm?

    Storm Nordwind: yes I have done that too, but so often it comes up with unveriable claims - unless you're digging too

    Storm Nordwind: phone..

    Calvino Rabeni: ara, for another angle, my slight contact with "guides" was in the context of native american shamanism (sweat lodge and trance journey)

    arabella Ella: wow Calvino i have been on one journey like that too ... amazing experience ... and what happened was totally unexpected

    Calvino Rabeni: listens

    arabella Ella: but i would love to hear more from you if you could too

    arabella Ella: i will tell you my experience later ... time permitting

    Fefonz Quan: I would say that for me it is quite difficult to take such experiences as valid/absolute ttruth/pragamtic for practice

    Calvino Rabeni: I was hoping your story first :)

    arabella Ella: Fef water divining is when people hold metal sticks and they move where they find energy or water in the ground

    arabella Ella: :)

    arabella Ella: ok Calvino here goes :)

    Calvino Rabeni: :)

    arabella Ella: i was at a conference a couple of years ago in Phoenix Arizona

    arabella Ella: and an extra evening session was on shamanism ... an experiential workshop

    arabella Ella: and they guy played drums and sent us on a trip to meet 'someone'

    arabella Ella: we could either fly into the sky high above everything else

    arabella Ella: or travel down to the depths of the sea

    arabella Ella: and i somehow expected to meet one of my late grand mothers

    Storm Nordwind (back)

    arabella Ella: but i met the other one

    arabella Ella: and she passed on a message to me

    arabella Ella: it may not sound like much

    arabella Ella: but it was very impressive and totally unexpected

    arabella Ella: she told me she was at peace and serene and well

    arabella Ella: thats it

    arabella Ella: may not sound like much but it was an experience i will never forget

    Calvino Rabeni: TY

    arabella Ella: next please ... :)

    Calvino Rabeni: I know 2 men who do this extensively; I have only done it about half dozen times so am no expert

    Calvino Rabeni: the tradition is ancient

    genesis Zhangsun: be everyone

    genesis Zhangsun: :)

    genesis Zhangsun: bye

    arabella Ella: bye Gen

    Calvino Rabeni: and they often use drums or rattles and go to a sky or underworld

    arabella Ella nods

    Calvino Rabeni: Or also journey in the middle world, which is this one

    Fefonz Quan: bye Gen!


    Calvino Rabeni: One friend became approved teacher after being apprentice

    Storm Nordwind: I used to act as guardian for a seidh work (heathen shaman)

    Calvino Rabeni: There are some fake teachers of this - and real ones

    Calvino Rabeni: One teacher was of Ojibway tribe -

    Storm Nordwind: Yes. And some make quite unnecessary palaver when all you need to do is "see"!

    Calvino Rabeni: They are given that role by their community - often have no choice in the matter

    Calvino Rabeni: As their elders may see the role before they are born

    Calvino Rabeni: Part of the feeling of it is connecting to ancestors through prayer

    Calvino Rabeni: that is their way - not the way of a western thinker, but I try to be open to it

    arabella Ella: yes i think that altho there may not be tangible empirical evidence yet we should remain open to all these possibilities

    Calvino Rabeni: and have met with some success, in one journey being taken by a guide on an ongoing basis

    Calvino Rabeni: my motto :) stay open but think :)

    arabella Ella: the same guide each time?

    Calvino Rabeni: I "found" one in the journey trance, I can make contact outside

    Calvino Rabeni: But, I don't want to claim it as a literal reality

    Calvino Rabeni: It might be just my imagination contacting a subtle realm

    Fefonz Quan nods

    Qt Core: :) ara, i have problems in believing all was said tonight but all in all as i lack knowledgepro or con , why not

    Qt Core: ?

    arabella Ella: but ... as you said ... you keep an open mind

    Calvino Rabeni: But I do think of imagination as a sense organ

    Calvino Rabeni: yes

    Storm Nordwind: It shapes and can be shaped

    Zon Quar: what is imagination ?

    Fefonz Quan: think of a purple cow in your mind Zon. see it? that is imagination

    Storm Nordwind chuckles

    Zon Quar: hm..

    Calvino Rabeni: Sorry, I have RL phone call now - please go on while I lurk

    Fefonz Quan: :)

    Zon Quar: if i write a book..its imagination too

    Zon Quar: but if its published

    Zon Quar: its still imagiantion

    Fefonz Quan: the plot is, the book isn't

    Zon Quar: r u sure

    Calvino Rabeni: please be careful with assumptious about imagination

    Zon Quar: book is just energy particles

    Fefonz Quan: about what?

    Zon Quar: cosmic imagination ?

    Zon Quar: lol

    Fefonz Quan: consmic imagination is an imagined concept :)

    Qt Core: time to go, bye all

    Fefonz Quan: Bye Qt

    Fox Monacular: me too, bye everyone

    Fefonz Quan: bye Fox

    Zon Quar: ihave roblems with what is real and what is imagination and how do we define teh difference

    arabella Ella: notte Qt

    arabella Ella: bye Fox

    Fefonz Quan: it is a difficult one...

    Fefonz Quan: maybe on one level, the things that you don't need any effort in order to 'see' are not imagined (and i can see them too maybe)

    Storm Nordwind: Please excuse me everyone

    Fefonz Quan: I guess it deserves a new session,

    Zon Quar: ah must go too, ty all , namaste, very interesting...

    Fefonz Quan: Night Storm

    Storm Nordwind waves

    Fefonz Quan: and i will leave too, it's very late


    arabella Ella: nite Fef

    Fefonz Quan: Night Ara, Calvino

    arabella Ella: quite an evening

    arabella Ella: all thanks to Osho

    arabella Ella: as the website i found instigated this topic

    arabella Ella: i must go soon

    arabella Ella: nite Calvino and thanks!

    arabella Ella: bye

    Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_

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