2009.12.24 13:00 - Hearts and homelessness

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    Wol Euler was guardian for this session, filling in for Lia. Comments will be added later.


    Wol Euler: hello calvino

    Wol Euler smiles at your title ("anything will do nicely")

    Calvino Rabeni: gday wol


    Wol Euler: hello bertram

    Bertram Jacobus: hi u 2 and merry christmas ...

    Calvino Rabeni: Ah, keyboard connected, can make language now :)

    Calvino Rabeni: Hello, Bert

    Wol Euler grins

    Wol Euler: that's a very interesting avatar, bert.

    Bertram Jacobus: ty wol. in which way you find it intersting ?

    Calvino Rabeni: (zooms in for a look)

    Wol Euler: a) very different from your usual look; and b) unusual in itself

    Bertram Jacobus: okay. ty again :-)

    Bertram Jacobus: and hello eliza and sophia ! ... :-)

    Bertram Jacobus: and liza ! ... :-)

    Liza Deischer: hi all

    Calvino Rabeni: What does the av mean to you, Bert?

    Calvino Rabeni: Hi Liza

    Wol Euler: hello liza, eliza, sophia

    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Wol, Cal, Bert, Liza, Sharon! :)

    Bertram Jacobus: oh. the greetings to sophia were to early. so now again : hy sophia ! ... ;-)

    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi everyone :)

    Eliza Madrigal: :) I saw the tail walking first

    Wol Euler: helo sophia

    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)

    Liza Deischer: hi sophia

    Eliza Madrigal: Pleasant travels, Wol?

    Bertram Jacobus: good question cal ! a bit desperation ... saw some pics from former times with my latest girlfriend ...

    Wol Euler: very pleasant, thank you!

    Eliza Madrigal: :)

    Wol Euler: is that a "state of your soul" avatar, Bert?

    Eliza Madrigal: :)

    Bertram Jacobus: always

    Bertram Jacobus: aren't avatars always state of our souls avas ?

    Wol Euler: well, yes I suppose so :)

    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, but which part?

    Wol Euler: at least for those of us who see them that way, tehy are.

    Bertram Jacobus: yes

    Calvino Rabeni: That is like asking, is Style superficial or deep?

    Bertram Jacobus: and cal - may be a kind of summary

    Bertram Jacobus: i would say - can be both

    Eliza Madrigal: Some days superficial, some days deep :)

    Wol Euler nods

    Calvino Rabeni: Bert, at first, it wasn't rezzed, your av looked more zombie, but when completed, reminded me of Work and Art

    Eliza Madrigal: Some days the book just feel comfortable and look cute... some days they bring out a strength needed for an occasion... heeh

    Eliza Madrigal: *boots

    Calvino Rabeni: And the way, in past eras, those were closely connected

    Eliza Madrigal: hm, books on the brain :)

    Wol Euler: :)

    Bertram Jacobus: where i found it, it is called "homeless person" cal - but i did not put on all. some perts i find silly

    Eliza Madrigal: Merry Christmas Ya :)

    Wol Euler: hello yakuzza

    Bertram Jacobus: hey ! :-) yaku ! ... ;-)

    Wol Euler: merry christmas, one and all (to coin a phrase)

    SophiaSharon Larnia: merry Christmas Yakuzza :)

    Liza Deischer: Hi Yaku

    Liza Deischer: homeless person in which centary

    Calvino Rabeni: In past times, I have heard, work used to make people dirty

    Wol Euler chuckles.

    SophiaSharon Larnia: lol

    Bertram Jacobus: looked to me liek actual liza ...

    Eliza Madrigal: :)

    Calvino Rabeni: no more, the pixels dont rub off on the body

    Wol Euler: some jobs are still pretty dirty.

    Calvino Rabeni: just on the soul

    Calvino Rabeni: or mind

    Calvino Rabeni: but if future people could see that they might be concerned

    Eliza Madrigal is here forcing herself to stop cooking... not the cleanest job :)

    Wol Euler: :)

    Eliza Madrigal: Well, if one does it right... hahaha

    Bertram Jacobus: but the thing on my head liza ... would not wonder if that reminds you at the mid age perhaps ... (?) ;-)

    Calvino Rabeni: Can I get a Pixel Apron to keep them from getting on me?

    Eliza Madrigal: :)))

    Liza Deischer: well, that is what i was looking at

    Bertram Jacobus: looking at myself again - i got that idea liza ... ;-)

    Calvino Rabeni: But I like that the "homeless" theme generates talk in SL

    Liza Deischer: but i only looked at the superficial surface

    Liza Deischer: i agree :)

    Calvino Rabeni: Do people still do "camping" in SL? It seems a zombie-like state, for the SL-homeless who have no Lindens

    Bertram Jacobus: still one minute to the 90 seconds ...

    Wol Euler: what shall we pause about?

    Eliza Madrigal: Ohhh the hobo community?

    Bertram Jacobus: that was my thought too and i had no idea

    Eliza Madrigal: (wasn't a suggestion, sorry-heh)


    Calvino Rabeni: will do ni

    Bertram Jacobus: "nothingness" perhaps ? ... ;-)

    Calvino Rabeni: I went with ELiza's non-suggestion, "the hobo community"

    Eliza Madrigal grins... how so, Cal?

    Bertram Jacobus: and what happend with it cal ?

    Calvino Rabeni: :)

    Calvino Rabeni: as my tag line today says ...

    Wol Euler nods

    Calvino Rabeni: It started with, that is somewhere else - the hobo camp nearby

    Calvino Rabeni: not me,

    Calvino Rabeni: then I remembered they are starting to work for the people

    Calvino Rabeni: out of a desire to give back or relate or whatever

    Calvino Rabeni: but it isn't necessary

    Calvino Rabeni: that led to thinking about "what I have" and "could drop"

    Calvino Rabeni: and some PaB dropping occurred.

    Wol Euler smiles.

    Eliza Madrigal: :)

    Liza Deischer: eh....hobo community?

    Calvino Rabeni: I think, noticed, what we have is relative

    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes, thinking about homeless implies you have a sense of home in the first place

    Calvino Rabeni: and what we fear is relative to what we have

    Calvino Rabeni: in a way the hobos made themselves more at home

    Eliza Madrigal nods to Sharon... very true

    SophiaSharon Larnia: no true homeless here, can't log easily into SL ,looks around> :)

    Calvino Rabeni: Liza the hobo community is a large camp of homelesss people who move around to different places in this city and are semi-organized chaotically

    Eliza Madrigal: Well the lines around "hobos" and various communities aren't always straight forward... we make homes where we go perhaps... build and undo our nests all the time

    Wol Euler: mmhmm

    Liza Deischer: hnx

    Liza Deischer: thnx

    Wol Euler: interesting to consider taht one might be without a "home" in the sense of support and community and nesting

    Wol Euler: but still have a roof over one's head

    Wol Euler: and also vice versa.

    SophiaSharon Larnia: nods

    Eliza Madrigal nods

    Calvino Rabeni: True Wol

    Eliza Madrigal: many homeless mansion-eers

    Wol Euler: mhmm

    Eliza Madrigal: in that sense

    Wol Euler: I was talking earlier to a friend who has had a split with her family, seems to be about to lose her relatives due to their unwillingness to accept her as she is

    SophiaSharon Larnia: this is the very worst time of year for people without a sense of home

    Wol Euler: she's feeling very much without a home, though physically sheltered and comfortalbe

    Eliza Madrigal: Oh :(

    Calvino Rabeni: I used to feel that Sophia, but no more

    Calvino Rabeni: luckily

    Eliza Madrigal: And yesterday I sat with a woman feeling the absence of her parents as though she lost them just yesterday.. though it has been years

    Wol Euler nods

    Calvino Rabeni: homes can be made as well as lost

    Eliza Madrigal: The thing is, that she missed them.. that they were/are so significant... is a blessing... so even the pain something to appreciate

    Calvino Rabeni: but not as easily as just going shopping

    Wol Euler: mmhmm

    Wol Euler: home is not something you can buy.

    Wol Euler: though you can be given it :)

    Eliza Madrigal thinks of the chaos she's been in and we sure appear to be trying

    Eliza Madrigal: :)

    Calvino Rabeni: interestingly yes

    Eliza Madrigal: "we" as a culture, etc

    Bertram Jacobus: i like franz zappas words : "home is where your heart is" ...

    Bertram Jacobus: frank*

    SophiaSharon Larnia: i like home is where you hang your hat :)

    Eliza Madrigal: hm, and funny to turn that around... heart is where your home is :)

    Wol Euler: (Franz is his cousin, plays accordion in a kletzmer band)

    Eliza Madrigal: hahahahah

    Bertram Jacobus: tz ;o)

    Bertram Jacobus: lolsmile*

    Bertram Jacobus: more smile then lol

    Calvino Rabeni: Owl, you are a hoot

    Calvino Rabeni: *Wol

    Eliza Madrigal giggles

    Liza Deischer: I think we shouldn't underatimate what it means to be homeless

    Wol Euler whaps you with a cushion

    Calvino Rabeni: heh

    Eliza Madrigal: Of course not, Liza

    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes Liza

    Wol Euler nods

    Liza Deischer: and you can aks yourself which homeless state was first

    Eliza Madrigal: but seeing how thin the lines are, is very helpful... most think of homelessness as something so far away

    Liza Deischer: because I think a lot of people lost ther heart before they lost there home


    Calvino Rabeni: that is poignant, Liza, a strong statement

    Wol Euler: yes, that might even come first I think.

    Wol Euler: losing their home because they lost heart

    Liza Deischer: losing contact with society

    Liza Deischer: with themselves

    Wol Euler: mmhmm

    Bertram Jacobus: yes liza ...

    Eliza Madrigal: a soft note...

    Eliza Madrigal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4D40r-E7yk

    Bertram Jacobus: *click*

    Wol Euler listens

    Liza Deischer: also listening

    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Ara :)

    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Arabella

    Liza Deischer: hi ara

    arabella Ella: Hiya

    Wol Euler: hello ara, merry christmas

    arabella Ella: merry christmas to all of you too!

    Bertram Jacobus: hi arabella ! ... :-)

    Eliza Madrigal: Thanks Ara :))

    Bertram Jacobus listens to billy joels "honesty" ...

    Eliza Madrigal: :) Difficult to stop with just one Bert

    Wol Euler: :)

    Bertram Jacobus: ("sic"!) ...

    Eliza Madrigal: (Didn't mean to sidetrack the conversation to youtube... apologies)

    Wol Euler: no worries

    Eliza Madrigal: this idea of our home being something we carry though... is touching and seems essential

    Bertram Jacobus: yes ...

    Eliza Madrigal: something we find moment to moment perhaps

    Wol Euler: I felt quite "at home" at a wedding last summer, with people I knew only from SL

    Liza Deischer: :)

    Eliza Madrigal smiles and understands that!

    Bertram Jacobus: that's very nice wol

    Wol Euler: among trusted and comfortable friends

    Calvino Rabeni: Home is also something that carries us, that needs to be created in the space between people

    Liza Deischer: yes

    Calvino Rabeni: perhaps through ritual, blessing, observance

    Eliza Madrigal: :) yes.. lovely idea..

    Calvino Rabeni: or some kind of conscious care

    Wol Euler: yes, calvino

    Calvino Rabeni: Are they equal, the give / receive equation?

    Calvino Rabeni: As in john lennon's song perhaps

    Wol Euler smiles. I think it's imbalanced in a positive way, because the giver receives too

    Wol Euler: 1+1=3

    Liza Deischer: i agree


    Liza Deischer: but i think it only works when there is real contact

    Liza Deischer: (whatever that means)

    Liza Deischer: hi Mick

    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Mick!

    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Mickorod

    arabella Ella: hiya Mick

    Wol Euler: helo mick, merry christmas

    Mickorod Renard: hiya,,merry x mas to you too

    Mickorod Renard: and hiya everyone

    Bertram Jacobus: hello mick ... ... :-)+

    Eliza Madrigal: yes I do wonder about 'real contact' and the 'space between'... many ideas about what constitutes real and even tangible seem turned around

    Eliza Madrigal: or rather 'put in question' in some way, by the ways in which we relate and connect now

    Wol Euler nods

    Eliza Madrigal: mostly I find it refreshing?

    Bertram Jacobus: but ... isn't that quite theorethical ? don't we feel, where is connection more or less ?

    Liza Deischer: something needs to flow on a certain level and that is hard to explain

    Eliza Madrigal: yes, quite

    arabella Ella: trust and respect perhaps

    Wol Euler: that is the key, ara

    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, bert, we feel, but I think, also ignore things that are there and positive

    Liza Deischer: I think you right Ara, it begins with a kind of attitude

    Bertram Jacobus: ya cal

    Eliza Madrigal: benefit of the doubt, too

    Eliza Madrigal: a kind of generosity... seeing our limitations and therefore being generous with others'

    Liza Deischer: very good start

    Eliza Madrigal: Bert's question reminded me of igoogle quote for today: "In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice; In practice, there is." - Chuck Reid

    Liza Deischer: :)

    Bertram Jacobus: well said ...

    arabella Ella: :)

    Mickorod Renard: wow,,I had a friend called Chuck Reid

    Bertram Jacobus: ... :-)

    arabella Ella: it may well be him Mick

    Eliza Madrigal: Sure... I have no idea who he is... hahah

    Bertram Jacobus: :-)

    Wol Euler: a very true statement, in any case

    Eliza Madrigal nods

    Calvino Rabeni: As practice reveals, things are more intricate than allowed by any theory

    arabella Ella: i must have arrived after Bert asked his question ... anyone care to paste it here again please if poss

    Eliza Madrigal: MMM, yes Calvino

    Calvino Rabeni: But, the theory helps in the awareness of the intricacy

    Calvino Rabeni: If held lightly

    Liza Deischer: yes

    Bertram Jacobus: i asked about the difference between theory and practise ara

    Eliza Madrigal will send a note Ara :)

    arabella Ella: ty

    arabella Ella: thanks Eliza!

    Eliza Madrigal: We're all so quiet... so I wont feel so bad about sending another link... my favorite Joel :) For Noel

    Eliza Madrigal: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHO6a2H-pqY

    Wol Euler: :)

    arabella Ella: hey i noticed it's Mick's rez day today ... two years old!

    arabella Ella: happy rez day Mick!

    Wol Euler: oh wow, happy rezday Mick!

    Eliza Madrigal: Really Mick! Ooooh wow, yes!!

    Mickorod Renard: thankyou

    Eliza Madrigal: Happy Rez Day!

    Mickorod Renard: he he

    Liza Deischer: happy rezday mick

    SophiaSharon Larnia: haha happy rez day Mick

    Mickorod Renard: I feel so old at 2 years

    Eliza Madrigal: Now I remember your saying that you tried SL around Christmas :)

    Eliza Madrigal: you look no worse for wear, Mick (not that I knew you two years ago but I'm pretty confident ;-)

    Liza Deischer: I already have a t-shirt for my first rez day


    Liza Deischer: but I still need to wait over 10 monthgs :)

    Mickorod Renard: well,,I have lost all my hair during that 2 year period

    arabella Ella: oh no that video link 'is not available in my country' makes me so curious when i get that message

    Wol Euler grins

    Liza Deischer: :)

    Eliza Madrigal grins too

    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, the last one Ara? And So it Goes...

    Eliza Madrigal: Billy Joel

    arabella Ella: yes the last youtube link

    SophiaSharon Larnia: Happy Holidays, bye for now, all :))

    arabella Ella: its amazing

    Liza Deischer: bye sophia

    arabella Ella: we think internet is so widely available

    Eliza Madrigal: Happy Holidays Sharon, So nice to see you!!

    Wol Euler: bye sophia, take care, all the best

    arabella Ella: yet recently i came across that message 'not available in your country' a few times

    arabella Ella: bye Sophia Sharon

    Eliza Madrigal: true, Ara. I'm always surprised to hear that!

    arabella Ella: feels like being in .... china?

    Wol Euler always just shrugs and puts it down to rampant lawyerism.

    Eliza Madrigal: :)

    arabella Ella will do the same

    arabella Ella: :)

    Eliza Madrigal: I must get back to cooking... was nice to sit with you all a while.

    Eliza Madrigal: Many Blessings. Namaste

    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye eliza

    Liza Deischer: bye elia

    Wol Euler: bye eliza, merry christmas

    arabella Ella: bye eliza metty christmas

    Yakuzza Lethecus: i get that message very often eliza, especially when i try to watch something from the bbc :P

    arabella Ella: ah

    Yakuzza Lethecus: or streams from american tv channels

    arabella Ella: yes

    Mickorod Renard: bye Eliza

    Wol Euler: yes, it's copyright control rather than government censorship

    arabella Ella: i guess so

    Wol Euler: (not that there isn't censorship too ...}

    arabella Ella: yes unfortunateely there still is

    arabella Ella: even in europe

    Calvino Rabeni: What I like about this time of year is - the returning of the light - perhaps I am pagan

    Wol Euler smiles.

    Liza Deischer: still thinking about our discussion today, i think that being able to make contact with yourself, without negative critisism an a lot of generosity as Ara says, is the main step

    Calvino Rabeni: I find I carry forward with the ponderings of this circle, after they end

    arabella Ella nods

    Liza Deischer: seeing your own flaws without critisising them but seeing them for what they are

    Wol Euler: mmhmm

    Wol Euler: absolutely, liza

    Calvino Rabeni: :)

    arabella Ella: that is why i sometimes see SL as a type of 'mirror' where stuff about ourselves gets reflected back to us

    Wol Euler: like a good parent with a child, distinguishes between loving the child and correcting its misbehaviour

    Liza Deischer: youre right cal, and because it is always late here, sometimes im still pondering when i need to sleep :0

    Liza Deischer: :)

    Wol Euler: :)

    Calvino Rabeni: My metaphor is yogurt - a little good bacteria get into the culture of my mind - not as clean as a mirror, surely :)

    Calvino Rabeni: but it captures the growing, and the mix

    Liza Deischer: Yes, i think looking at yourself like that (as a child) helps

    Calvino Rabeni: self-parenting

    Wol Euler: yep

    Liza Deischer: nicely put Cal


    Wol Euler: I'm going to have to return to RL, my dears, my laptop battery is running down and dinner is approaching

    Wol Euler: Merry christmas, happy holidays to everyone

    Calvino Rabeni: I must go. Thanks all, may your rituals bring home to soul of yo and yours.

    Liza Deischer: bye Wol

    arabella Ella: ah enjoy the evening and tomorrow Wol Happy Christmas!

    Liza Deischer: I must go too

    Liza Deischer: have a nice Christmas everyone

    Wol Euler: ((I've claimed the log, and will post it. Please carry on))

    Calvino Rabeni: /]

    arabella Ella: bye Cal Liza

    Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_

    Wol Euler: bye everyone, take care

    arabella Ella: enjoy your christmas!

    Bertram Jacobus: bye all leaving people ...

    arabella Ella: :)

    arabella Ella: the exodus

    arabella Ella: hey Yaku

    arabella Ella: what do you call christmas eve in germany

    arabella Ella: you have a special name for it dont you?

    Mickorod Renard: bye everyone leaving

    arabella Ella: maybe Bert can answer ... Yaku is busy drinking his tea

    Bertram Jacobus: have to read again ... sry -

    Bertram Jacobus: ah ! it's "heiligabend" :-)

    arabella Ella: what do you call 24/12 in germany

    arabella Ella: ah yes now i remember

    arabella Ella: tried to remember in my head and got it wrong

    arabella Ella: and when you say sylvester abend ... who is sylvester?

    Bertram Jacobus: let me have a look ... research ...

    arabella Ella: :)

    Bertram Jacobus: wikipedia says it was latin and means men of the forest - and it was a pagan day in former times ...

    arabella Ella: ah interesting

    arabella Ella: but

    arabella Ella: where are the women?

    arabella Ella: cooking at home i guess

    arabella Ella: anyway i must go now

    arabella Ella: nite everyone enjoy your Christmas

    Bertram Jacobus: may be ...

    Bertram Jacobus: ty ara same same :-)

    arabella Ella: Frohe Weihnachten

    arabella Ella: (not sure how to spell it)

    Bertram Jacobus: 100 % correct ! :-)

    arabella Ella: Hiya Aztlan

    arabella Ella: :)

    Aztlan Foss: hi everyone

    Bertram Jacobus: and hello aztlan ! ... :-)

    arabella Ella: apologies aztlan was just about to leave ... merry christmas

    Aztlan Foss: this started at 1 right? I'm waaaaaay late

    Aztlan Foss: bye arabella, merry christmass

    Mickorod Renard: hi Aztlan, I am just going too

    Aztlan Foss: take care all

    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye and night

    Mickorod Renard: take care,,and happy xmas everyone

    Bertram Jacobus: bye mick ... :-)

    Bertram Jacobus: you are right aztlan ... 1 pm start here ... ;-)

    Aztlan Foss: :-D

    Bertram Jacobus: always 1 and 7 night and day :-)

    Bertram Jacobus: you were already here ?

    Aztlan Foss: I've been meaning to join in but my schedule makes it hard to make it

    Aztlan Foss: I've been here once before

    Aztlan Foss: a month ago, maybe?

    Aztlan Foss: can't remember exactly

    Bertram Jacobus: i see ... may be next time better and more easy to join ? four times a day is a nice offer in my eyes ... :-)

    Bertram Jacobus: ah. i see. so you were asked already whether your comments may be recorded as all here ? ... :-)

    Aztlan Foss: yeah it is! Maybe next year :-P

    Bertram Jacobus: lol okay :-)

    Aztlan Foss: yeah

    Bertram Jacobus: nice :-)

    Bertram Jacobus: the group here seems to be quite stabile ... :-)

    Bertram Jacobus: many members

    Bertram Jacobus: so it may last a while ... it already does ... :-)

    Aztlan Foss: and there's no vibes of social tension

    Bertram Jacobus: no. very open and friendly -

    Aztlan Foss: I think this is here because people need it


    Aztlan Foss: that's why it'll last

    Bertram Jacobus: yes. nicely said. i can agree ... :-)

    Bertram Jacobus: and i see, you are quite a long time already existing in sl ! ... :-)

    Aztlan Foss: hehe yeah, tried several years ago

    Aztlan Foss: then I didn't log in for maybe over a year

    Aztlan Foss: and then I remembered I had an account after having read an article about SL

    Aztlan Foss: so I logged in again

    Aztlan Foss: I go long periods with out logging in, but it's a place that's always here to come to

    Bertram Jacobus: interesting ... i also heard about it from the press and then started ... - may i ask where you live ? (rl) ? :-)

    Aztlan Foss: Los Angles Harbor

    Bertram Jacobus: ah. great ! i visited la some or should i say many years ago - what does harbour mean here ? :-)

    Aztlan Foss: the harbor means it's by the ocean. Parts are industrialised so there's huge boats with merchendise and cruise ships and fishing boats

    Bertram Jacobus: i see. and there is a living area too ? :-)

    Bertram Jacobus: with homes and flats i mean ?

    Bertram Jacobus: sry - you have to stand a lot of bad english here i guess ...

    Aztlan Foss: yeah, living area, beach, nice ocean views and industrial areas

    Bertram Jacobus: whaow - sounds really great ! and there is not only one harbour in la i guess ?

    Aztlan Foss: http://pics4.city-data.com/cpicv/vfiles17928.jpg

    Bertram Jacobus: very nice. ty for this impression ! :-)

    Aztlan Foss: alll the cities here are very close together, there's no seperation between them. So if you follow the coast-line you'll see places like that picture and beaches

    Aztlan Foss: between San Pedro, CA and Long Beach, CA is where all the industrial places are

    Aztlan Foss: and that's maybe 2 or three miles away from where that picture is

    Bertram Jacobus: yes. but / and ... it's quite far away from la downtown - how far ?

    Aztlan Foss: 5 km maybe?

    Bertram Jacobus: ah. not so far :-)

    Aztlan Foss: this is long Beach, right across a bridge from where I live: http://citrustickets.com/wp-content/...ch-skyline.jpg

    Bertram Jacobus: *click* :-)

    Bertram Jacobus: whaow - that looks great , impressive ! ... :-)

    Aztlan Foss: and this is the bridge: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...mas_Bridge.jpg

    Bertram Jacobus: hehe *click* :-)

    Bertram Jacobus: ah yes. in the style of golden gate ;-)

    Aztlan Foss: yup

    Aztlan Foss: so, in a very small area there's a lot :-)

    Bertram Jacobus: oh yes ! easily to imagine

    Aztlan Foss: Heilswegler is german?

    Bertram Jacobus: yes. i mean with it something like follower of love ...


    Aztlan Foss: love is an interesting word for many feelings

    Aztlan Foss: love by it's self, when it's not twards anyone in particular looks a lot like forgivness

    Bertram Jacobus: you're right ! but i did not mean the grasping something but the uniting aspect - unity and such ...

    Bertram Jacobus: all including -

    Aztlan Foss: which I find strange because forgivness usually is twards other people, unless it deals with not making your self feel bad

    Aztlan Foss: it's hard to unite people

    Bertram Jacobus: more easy when oneself is ... in akind of state of pece may be ...

    Bertram Jacobus: sry for the typos

    Aztlan Foss: yeah, you've probably tried to take many different paths

    Aztlan Foss: so you understand their implications

    Bertram Jacobus: you're right again ! ... :-9

    Bertram Jacobus: (refering to many paths) ...

    Aztlan Foss: some people don't even knwow they are on a path

    Bertram Jacobus: yes

    Bertram Jacobus: but the work has to be done on ones own i think ...

    Aztlan Foss: so it seems that they can't connect untill they figure things that there's probably no words for

    Bertram Jacobus: yes. i agree again :-)

    Aztlan Foss: yeah that's where it's difficult for people.

    Aztlan Foss: how do you start to do the work when you don't know that there is work to be done?

    Bertram Jacobus: i think everybody feels sometimes that there is some work to do, but not everybody is able to take or start it ...

    Bertram Jacobus: but - "all beings want to be happy and avoid suffering" - so the work is always present "automatically" ...

    Bertram Jacobus: on different stges

    Aztlan Foss: so do people just die sometimes never connecting with even themselves?

    Bertram Jacobus: yes sadly

    Bertram Jacobus: or -

    Bertram Jacobus: the connectivity may be not so intense

    Bertram Jacobus: for some people

    Aztlan Foss: is it intense for you?

    Bertram Jacobus: others have more chances to work with all that -

    Bertram Jacobus: nice question - i hope ! (?) ;-)

    Aztlan Foss: hehehe

    Bertram Jacobus: :-)

    Aztlan Foss: nice answer

    Bertram Jacobus: and you ? are you content with the connection to yourself ? :-)

    Aztlan Foss: are some of us just lucky? some people are just born in wealth, or in a wealthy country. So, are some of us just born able to figure out how we can connect?

    Aztlan Foss: hehe, yeah I think so.

    Bertram Jacobus: great !

    Aztlan Foss: I feel at home where ever I am, so I hope that's a good sign.

    Aztlan Foss: I guess for now my place is inside my body. It's like havinga mobile home? :-P

    Bertram Jacobus: and i don't know something about the backgrounds of birth and such. i only agree with you : some needs seem to be necessairily fulfilled to start finding less physical needs then -

    Bertram Jacobus: and satisfy them

    Bertram Jacobus: trying to


    Aztlan Foss: I think Carl Jung tried to study peak experiences

    Aztlan Foss: I mean Abraham Maslow

    Bertram Jacobus: c.g. jung was very close to ideals and spirituality i would say ...

    Bertram Jacobus: ah. maslow also - very often quoted ...

    Aztlan Foss: both of them, I think, had an intuitive sense of existing.

    Aztlan Foss: there needs to be more study like what they did

    Bertram Jacobus: and we talked a lot about home and homelessness in the last meeting just before !

    Aztlan Foss: right now all they teach in most universities, and where most of the money is, is people with "psychological illness"

    Bertram Jacobus: yes. but there is also a more new orientation in direction to psycologically health (!) ...

    Aztlan Foss: yeah, that makes me very happy! Sometimes people just need to be pointed in a good direction

    Aztlan Foss: and studies like that can really help do that. Even if we're all different, our subjective experiences end up being similar.

    Aztlan Foss: it's the only way we can feel what others feel, and that's why we communicate

    Aztlan Foss: I read that while maslow was researching peak experiences he said certain people, even if they didn't have all their needs met had the ability to hav a peak experience.

    Bertram Jacobus: yes . "but" ... i'm very sorry - and quite tired - midnight here now and already written and read a looot ! ... so ... you excuse me ? ... had to retire ... (its often so abrupt here) ... :-/

    Bertram Jacobus: although very interesting ...

    Aztlan Foss: enjoy your rest!

    Aztlan Foss: thanks for the chat

    Bertram Jacobus: ^ ^

    Bertram Jacobus: so kind - cu next time, look fiorward ... :-)

    Bertram Jacobus: ... bye folks ...

    Bertram Jacobus: ... see you laaater ...

    Aztlan Foss: bye bertram

    Bertram Jacobus: ups - silly gesture ... ;o)

    Aztlan Foss: haha

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