2009.12.26 01:00 - What did you learn?

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Scathach Rhiadra. The comments are by Scathach Rhiadra.

    Nymf Hathaway: Happy Christmas and Good morning Scathach... long time :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: good morning Nynf:)
    Scathach Rhiadra: and happy Christmas to you!!
    Nymf Hathaway: Hello Calvino :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello calvino and Bertram:)
    Bertram Jacobus: hello, good morning and happy christmas to you all ... :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: Hello Nymf :) also Scath and Bertram!
    Nymf Hathaway: Hello Bertram :)
    Bertram Jacobus: nice outfit nymf ! ... :-)
    Nymf Hathaway: Thank you...so is your winter clothing :)
    Bertram Jacobus: hehe. ty too :-)
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes, you look well bundled up against the cold Bertram, cozy:)
    Bertram Jacobus: hehe. yes : i changed my closing because of the snow here ... ;-)
    Scathach Rhiadra: so how is eveyone today, having a good holiday
    Nymf Hathaway: The snow disappeard here but other than that, yes
    Bertram Jacobus: yes : i´m very happy to have a few days off work
    Nymf Hathaway: Happy christmas Qt :)
    Qt Core: hi all
    Calvino Rabeni: I don't work, but I took a day off from my usual activities :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Qt:)
    Bertram Jacobus: and i was thinking about the "political correctness" of "happy holliday" , instead of "merry christmas" ...
    Qt Core: ty nymf, happy christmas to you all
    Bertram Jacobus: which activities did you interrupt cal ?
    Qt Core: ohh, the lobely politically correctness ;-)
    Bertram Jacobus: and hi qt :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: Ah, I spend a lot of time reading / writing / various practices - solitary. So I went to a christmas play with people, then today to a cafe to chat at leisure with friends
    Scathach Rhiadra: sounds a nice way to relax:)
    Nymf Hathaway: Sounds nice :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Qt Core: it sound a warm and warming idea... that is if you find an open anything on 26/12 ;-)
    Calvino Rabeni: One cafe was open on Christmas day today - very busy
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes, everything is closed here too
    Nymf Hathaway: We watched Avatar... which IS impressive...respect for the writer
    Qt Core: the day after big holidays are even more quiter than the holiday itself
    Scathach Rhiadra: is Avatar anything like SL avatares Nymf?
    Nymf Hathaway: no
    Scathach Rhiadra: :))
    Nymf Hathaway: its about a world called Pandora... humans go to the planet to distroy (of course) some get the chance to work on a scientific program... getting in to a body of the species to connect with them...amazing!
    Scathach Rhiadra: ah, sounds good:)
    Qt Core: strange choice of name, Pandora
    Nymf Hathaway: I recommand it, Scath :)
    Calvino Rabeni: I have not seen it - what happens to the consciousness of the host body?
    Nymf Hathaway: oooh... he becomes attached to the species and its abilities and life-philosophies
    Calvino Rabeni: That is a nice variation of the idea
    Calvino Rabeni: If the host and outside consciousnesses kind of blended
    Nymf Hathaway: the live in a full respect for their planet and nature..use their nature (trees, animals) for them...as if one
    Scathach Rhiadra: so an ecological message to the film as well?
    Nymf Hathaway: But I must say... after seeing the latest Star Trek and now Avatar it always surprises me Hollywood is always looking for a fight or war in movies :(
    Nymf Hathaway: yes Scath :)
    Qt Core: adrenaline
    Scathach Rhiadra: well, the fights and wars seem to attract viewers more I suppose:)
    Qt Core: you (me) like to see a fictional war/fight to release the stress and the wish to start one i think
    Nymf Hathaway: What does that say about us Scath... can we do without?
    Qt Core: the lazy version of going to the gym and hitting on a punchingball
    Nymf Hathaway: seems so Qt
    Scathach Rhiadra: I doubt there has ever been a time in the history of the species when there was no war or killing:(
    Nymf Hathaway: Sad but true
    Calvino Rabeni: According to Steven Pinker (I think), the trend if looked at carefully, is of continual improvement - contradicting a general fearful attitued
    Scathach Rhiadra: maybe we could learn to harness all the power that goes into survival instincts to some better purpose?
    Calvino Rabeni: According to the Maslow model that happens naturally when there are no survival stressors
    Scathach Rhiadra: ah:)
    Calvino Rabeni: However I understand it is worth considering
    Calvino Rabeni: For instance, people seem not content with peace and comfort - they seek challenge through adventures, maybe violent games and fantasies
    Calvino Rabeni: I wonder what is going on with that?
    Nymf Hathaway: What about sports? Like the ancient Greek introduced...
    Calvino Rabeni: The greeks introduced it as part of being fully human
    Calvino Rabeni: not just intellects
    Calvino Rabeni: embidiment
    Calvino Rabeni: -bodiment
    Calvino Rabeni: But of course, it dovetailed with war skills also for survival
    Nymf Hathaway: Balance... and something to stop war (in their time just for the games) but can be done now as well
    Scathach Rhiadra: also, they used it in a very competitive way, could use drugs and anything to win, not so noble as we like to portray it
    Calvino Rabeni: Like puppies and kittens - animals - play-fight. So people also.
    Nymf Hathaway: I would have loved to see Saddam run against Bush...would have been hilaric!
    Scathach Rhiadra: you mean run a race?
    Nymf Hathaway: yes :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Wars used to start that way with a contest of champions
    Qt Core: wars fought between the eader of the two parts ?
    Qt Core: ;-)
    Calvino Rabeni: OR their best fighters, if not the kings.
    Calvino Rabeni: In tribal times those may have been the same
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes the ancient celts used single combat, champions to fight wars
    Nymf Hathaway: sounds more honest than sending 18 year olds to do the dirty work Calvino :)
    Calvino Rabeni: I agree, I think you implied that before ?
    Nymf Hathaway: yes :)
    Qt Core: damn then California can rule the world ;-)
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Nymf Hathaway: hahhahah Qt
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello aztlan
    Qt Core: hi aztlan
    Aztlan Foss: hi everyone
    Scathach Rhiadra: have you been here before/
    Bertram Jacobus: hello aztlan :-)
    Aztlan Foss: I've been here two times
    Nymf Hathaway: Hello Aztlan :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: ah, good:)
    Aztlan Foss: what ever I type gets saved
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes, you know the drill:))
    Aztlan Foss: it's a cool place. It makes me want to log in more often.
    Aztlan Foss: any of you know Eden Hayku?
    Scathach Rhiadra: we are just discussing the survival instinct and war at the moment
    Aztlan Foss: wow, that's a big subject
    Qt Core: yes, aztlan, not well, just as a fellow pabbers
    Qt Core: it just started as "why people like violeng movies ?"
    Qt Core: violent
    Aztlan Foss: hmmm
    Aztlan Foss: I enjoy violence. There's a certain pleasure in it. I don't like to hurt people but I think it's related to getting pleasure from strong emotions.
    Aztlan Foss: people get sad when nothing is happening
    Calvino Rabeni: Or games, or sports. I would not necessarily *define* them as violent
    Scathach Rhiadra nods
    Aztlan Foss: and strong emotions make people feel alive, like life is important. weather it's frustration or survival or rage or love
    Calvino Rabeni: If two people agree to play-fight, it is consensual - not violent
    Nymf Hathaway: Violence is an agressor and a victim, Calvino?
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I was proposing something like that
    Aztlan Foss: I saw a documentary about violence and they were studying young children. They said it seems to be that play-fighting is very important in young children because that's where they learn to control their emotions, they learn fairness and they learn the extent of their power over others.
    Calvino Rabeni: The victim does not want it to happen, and is damaged
    Calvino Rabeni: I meant, hurt by it
    Qt Core: even in "consensual fighting" i think that the violent instinct get expressed, we just find a way to express them whitout hurt ourselves... too much
    Nymf Hathaway: agrees Calvino
    Calvino Rabeni: We spoke about animals play-fighting before you came in today
    Aztlan Foss: oh cool
    Calvino Rabeni: Children learn the boundaries, also when to submit, when to respect others, etc.
    Scathach Rhiadra: and using strong emotions to feel alive features strongly in 'thrill-seeking' sports
    Aztlan Foss: and they learn to negotiate
    Calvino Rabeni: It is about trust as well as power
    Calvino Rabeni: Agree
    Calvino Rabeni: Team sports are about competition, but just as much about cooperation
    Aztlan Foss: yeah trust is interesting. it's hard to evaluate how much you can trust your self if you don't know how you will react, in a split second, about certain situations.
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Calvino Rabeni: But also, the training and discipline necessary to master a skill
    Aztlan Foss: yeah, games set rules and the rules create the circumstanses that are inherent in the game evnronment
    Aztlan Foss: I think it also applies to societies
    Calvino Rabeni: take a long time, a concerted attention
    Aztlan Foss: like, if you pick capitalism in a democratic society people will act according to those rules
    Calvino Rabeni: deferred gratification, etc.
    Aztlan Foss: sure,t hey break them, but the rules are broken with in the scope of the game
    Aztlan Foss: so do you think people seek violence?
    Bertram Jacobus: some do
    Calvino Rabeni: A game is a mix of structure plus freedom
    Calvino Rabeni: and gives certain definitions to excellence
    Calvino Rabeni: while I suppose, obscuring other types of excellence
    Aztlan Foss: i"m sure if you go pick a fight with a random person out in the street right now it'll take some effort.
    Aztlan Foss: it doesn't seem that people are on their toes to start conflict
    Calvino Rabeni: I personally don't think many people seek violence
    Aztlan Foss: even displays of powers seem like a device to avoid conflic
    Aztlan Foss: conflict*
    Bertram Jacobus: i agree cal
    Calvino Rabeni: they may go too far, on automatic, things could get out of control
    Calvino Rabeni: OR be pushed there by others
    Nymf Hathaway: yes the power of the humans that come to watch the fight :(
    Nymf Hathaway: sorry
    Calvino Rabeni: Oh, are there any reports about the experience inside the pause :)
    Aztlan Foss: the being pause?
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes 90 secs during the bell period
    Bertram Jacobus: i used it to eat something and drink (breakfast) ... ;o)
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Aztlan Foss: well I had this mental model, like a visual thing, about each one of the avatars being connected to some person in front of a computer an arbitrary distance away and I got stuck think of all the different directions the avatars connected to the person in physical space
    Nymf Hathaway: Uses the 90 seconds to reflect on the last sentence spoken before the bell
    Aztlan Foss: like, relative to where I'm at QT is next to my avatar but he might live in any direction relative to my physical space
    Aztlan Foss: lol and I didn't feel like I wanted to kill anyone
    Calvino Rabeni: The pause is all-purpose for many possible things, whatever happens is the right thing
    Scathach Rhiadra: always a good thing:)
    Qt Core: :) that often has the power opf blowing minds, Aztlan
    Calvino Rabeni: It can be "used" well.
    Aztlan Foss: yeah QT, just your avatar there blew my mind
    Aztlan Foss: or kinda, just made it trip ove it's self. I kinda feel dumb sometimes since I find trivial things difficult
    Qt Core: yeah, i'm cool like that :-D
    Bertram Jacobus: *g*
    Aztlan Foss: it's cool the subject is violence because when I was in highschool violence was a HUGe part of my life. Not physically, it was just a HUGE part of what I found pleasure in.
    Calvino Rabeni: How many here would say, they develop something like a habit with the pause, such that it tends to be the same thing?
    Calvino Rabeni: Same, that is relative to the fact it is a completely open possibility?
    Aztlan Foss: video games, movies, music, iconography. I wanted to find and see the most violent things. Now looking back it was just seeking pleasure, but at the time it was seeking what I thought was "fun"
    Nymf Hathaway: Agrees
    Qt Core: i often find myself concentrating on a specific colour i see on the screen
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes Calvino, same but always different in some way
    Aztlan Foss: what do you mean Calvino about the pause?
    Nymf Hathaway: Cannot imagine such Aztlan...but thats maybe do to the fact I am female
    Calvino Rabeni: The pause is for mindfulness, and anything could appear there that is possible for a mind to do.
    Calvino Rabeni: But what actually happens is often much less than that
    Calvino Rabeni: based on perhaps, habits
    Bertram Jacobus: is it a time phenomenon ? that especially nowadays young people seek fun in violence ? . was it and will that be less again sometimes ?
    Calvino Rabeni: I think they could be useful or not-useful habits
    Calvino Rabeni: I say that because I find both of those myself
    Aztlan Foss: I think it's much less now than it used to be. Violence is slowly becoming a thing of the past from my perspective.
    Aztlan Foss: since highschool I've grown to be very disturbed by human suffering. And it seems the younger ones I talk to now don't have THAT much of an interest in it as entertainment as I used to.
    Bertram Jacobus: happy to hear / read that !
    Calvino Rabeni: a healthy trend?
    Aztlan Foss: but being connected and fully involved in sympathyzing with human emotion in that way, because of my previous obsession with violence, brings me closer to feeling connected with the world and the less fortunate
    Calvino Rabeni: I understand that
    Bertram Jacobus: why not ? the usual up and down circles cal ... may be
    Aztlan Foss: so I wonder if that's a bad thing for the young ones? will they feel less connected with the suffering of those they don't know?
    Nymf Hathaway: I do not think so Aztlan... I never have been violent and earth and its inhabitants are close to my heart...can say the same for my children
    Qt Core: have to go, bye all and have fun
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Qt
    Aztlan Foss: sometimes when people seek something it's because they want to understand it.
    Bertram Jacobus: i don´t think, that´s necessairily so aztlan. there are many accesses to all that i guess ...
    Scathach Rhiadra: have a good day
    Nymf Hathaway: Bye Qt have a nice day :)
    Aztlan Foss: I'm not sure but maybe I wanted to understand suffering and rage.
    Bertram Jacobus: bye qt - have a good time ! :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: That is understandable
    Aztlan Foss: a lack of understanding of this could disconnect societies from the suffering of the world
    Calvino Rabeni: I went to a mindfulness group that looked at "dark" topics
    Aztlan Foss: what'd you learn?
    Nymf Hathaway: Perfect last sentence before the bell :)
    Calvino Rabeni: It was difficult but worth it
    Bertram Jacobus: sounds really interesting to me cal - is this group still existing ?
    Calvino Rabeni: I don't think so, this was in the past - you had to be in the city where the teacher was, because it was person-to-person
    Bertram Jacobus: ah okay.
    Calvino Rabeni: Essentially buddhist mindfulness, but not "afraid of the dark"
    Bertram Jacobus: and as aztlan asked : what did you learn ? (!) ;-)
    Bertram Jacobus: ah. there it is already - may be the main thing (?) ... ;-)
    Calvino Rabeni: It helped with compassion and flexibility
    Bertram Jacobus: great
    Bertram Jacobus: many fear those topics
    Calvino Rabeni: It changed my notion of what a "negative emotion" is
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Bertram Jacobus: and try to avoid them
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: but one can't avoid them,really, without risking just burying them
    Bertram Jacobus: in which way was that change cal please ?
    Calvino Rabeni: turning away is not same as dealing
    Aztlan Foss: isn't one of the nobel truths that suffering exists?
    Bertram Jacobus: the first one. yes
    Calvino Rabeni: number one,
    Calvino Rabeni: but they come in a kind of progression, it seems to me
    Bertram Jacobus: cal ? in which way your notion of negative emotion changed ?
    Bertram Jacobus: emotions*
    Aztlan Foss: honestly I don't think I fully understand that but I think I've had the idea in my head enough to be able to connect it to my personal experience of life.
    Calvino Rabeni: I don't think there is such a thing as a negative emotion.
    Calvino Rabeni: And I think the "positive" ones are just as binding
    Scathach Rhiadra nods
    Aztlan Foss: basicly, you can't ignore or deny or avoid suffering. it's bound to everything.
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, or maybe not, depending on perspective
    Nymf Hathaway: Sorry to say... need to connect with RL... what an interesting discussion, I loved it, thanks and enjoy!
    Aztlan Foss: so I guess pushing it aside would give you an incomplete view of the world
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    Bertram Jacobus: i differ between the relative and a so to call absolute view . and related to that, for me there are negative and positive - and not ;-)
    Aztlan Foss: enjoy Rl Nymf
    Calvino Rabeni: it will still exist outside of the circle you call "you", but inside the bigger circle called "reality"
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye Nymf:
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Nymf Hathaway: bye bye :)
    Bertram Jacobus: bye nymf. have a nice day !
    Scathach Rhiadra: some would say emotions are binding only as long as you don't acknowledge them, mostly we try to avoid them, surpress them of push them on to others, just
    Calvino Rabeni: Acknowledgment is a deep thing.
    Scathach Rhiadra: agree, you have to stay with the emotion, see it for what it is
    Calvino Rabeni: And that transforms it, apparently
    Scathach Rhiadra: or you find that there is really nothing there
    Aztlan Foss: can we realy see things for what they are? ever?
    Aztlan Foss: as soon as you try to explain it you have to pick a starting point
    Calvino Rabeni: They keep changing. "what they are" is not a static pattern.
    Aztlan Foss: or as soon as you try to understand something, you have to go through the same thing, so it'll always be incomplete
    Calvino Rabeni: As in "never finished"
    Bertram Jacobus: apparently is a strange word - in my dictionary there is said it can mean something like may be and obviously ??
    Calvino Rabeni: Ah, maybe English implication is a bit different
    Aztlan Foss: axioms?
    Calvino Rabeni: What might we mean with the word "apparently"?
    Bertram Jacobus: which of both is it ? may be or obviously please ?
    Calvino Rabeni: More like "maybe" than "obviously"
    Bertram Jacobus: interesting ... ty
    Aztlan Foss: well, aparently, if it refers to axioms is something that is obviously true but can't be proven.
    Calvino Rabeni: The "obviously" means "other people would see it the same, if they would only look :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: you could say #it seem obvious' Bertram
    Scathach Rhiadra: seems*
    Bertram Jacobus: yes - but both can be very different
    Bertram Jacobus: may be and obviously
    Bertram Jacobus: but ok. more clear now for me. ty again :-)
    Aztlan Foss: :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: Bert, I was reading the log of your session with Pema
    Calvino Rabeni: I enjoyed it quite a bit
    Scathach Rhiadra: I must go, have a great holiday everyone:)
    Aztlan Foss: bye Scathach
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye, Scathach :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: Namasté
    Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
    Bertram Jacobus: bye scath - have a nice day ! :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: Anyway Bert, you had a very effective manner - I wondered did you learn it somewhere?
    Bertram Jacobus: which were the points you enjoyed cal. and i can say : i was also very happy to have this opportunity of a nearly one hour talk with only this "face to face" situation with him (!) ... :-)
    Bertram Jacobus: ups
    Bertram Jacobus: and you are very aware cal (!) - i learned it from my father i guess : he was journalist ... so i learned how to ask ... ;-)
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, the one-on-one dialogues can be in-depth
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, good question asking - just the right amount of "push"
    Aztlan Foss: can you sumaraize what it was about, sounds valuable
    Calvino Rabeni: You can see it in the log - I will get the link
    Aztlan Foss: cool thanks
    Bertram Jacobus: that´s difficult to me because i have a very bad reminding sadly. but a feeling is still there about it.- and you can read it in the log aztlan !
    Aztlan Foss: I don't know where the log is :(
    Calvino Rabeni: http://playasbeing.wik.is/Chat_Logs/2009/12/2009.12.25_01%3a00_-_What_Are_You_Interested_In%3f
    Aztlan Foss: awesome, thanks Calvino!
    Bertram Jacobus: wonderful - ty cal ! :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: The very interesting thing about the logs is, we can "think twice" about things
    Bertram Jacobus: i just was trying to give some points ... :-)
    Aztlan Foss: I like to learn from people and I don't know how to ask good questions and it's hard for me to have quality conversations in my RL.
    Calvino Rabeni: Which is much harder in normal conversation
    Calvino Rabeni: It's hard because people do things to interfere with it
    Bertram Jacobus: but - my impression is, we really can learn here also for everyday life aztlan (!) -
    Calvino Rabeni: I believe that also
    Aztlan Foss: yeah, I was trying to tell my cousin all learning is good in the end.
    Aztlan Foss: he is afraid his children will learn "bad" things so he tries to limit what they are explosed to
    Aztlan Foss: and I tell him that's probably a bad thing. Life isn't made of nurf balls, and you have to face the world. Philosophically to face the world is to face your self since it is you who persieves the world.
    Calvino Rabeni: Parents have to be careful with their child's development
    Calvino Rabeni: Not have them exposed to more than they can handle at a stretch
    Calvino Rabeni: They will find their own way to get in over their head
    Calvino Rabeni: Being lost is ok -- part of the time
    Bertram Jacobus: that´s not only easy : i think, limitation is okay. not seeking the bad aspects. but when they occure, to deal with them. exploring all things in a health manner, not violently ;-) ...
    Aztlan Foss: but there's realy nothing out there any one person can't handle.
    Calvino Rabeni: It depends on their development and maturity
    Aztlan Foss: yeah, protect, but don't blind kids.
    Aztlan Foss: that's the thing though, limiting the bad is ignoring a vital part of the world
    Bertram Jacobus: i tghink we agree here ... :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: not over-protect, I agree
    Aztlan Foss: like the nobel truths. there is suffering.
    Aztlan Foss: you can't seperate suffering from life, you can't minimize it. And, at times, trying ot minimize it can cause more harm than good.
    Calvino Rabeni: science now knows, "too clean" is not good for the immune system
    Bertram Jacobus: yes - but the others, too (!) : sufferings has a cause (2.) , it can end (3.) and there is a way how to do that (4.) (!) ...
    Bertram Jacobus: have*
    Aztlan Foss: When the nazies did their genosides they came up with ways of doing it in such a way that they didn't have confront the harsh pain of watching people die brutally.
    Aztlan Foss: suffering can end?
    Aztlan Foss: interesting, what do you mean by that?
    Bertram Jacobus: buddha says so
    Aztlan Foss: oh, escaping the life cycle?
    Calvino Rabeni: The first noble truth is a first step on a sequence
    Bertram Jacobus: yes. one of the tries to express that ;-)
    Calvino Rabeni: But buddha also said - don't believe it just because I said it :)
    Aztlan Foss: hahaha
    Bertram Jacobus: hehe. yes again :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: "see for yourself"
    Aztlan Foss: in my personal experience, I have not whinessed a single person who has not experience suffering.
    Aztlan Foss: even birth comes with pain
    Calvino Rabeni: And following formulas is a temptation to be avoided - as it doesn't result in insight
    Aztlan Foss: relationships comes with pain
    Aztlan Foss: hard work comes with pain
    Aztlan Foss: learning hard lessons comes with pain.
    Calvino Rabeni: Conscious suffering is worthwhile
    Bertram Jacobus: but bliss is worthwhile too -
    Aztlan Foss: oh well I understand bliss
    Aztlan Foss: and I don't think pain is necessary for you to understand bliss, eternally, even. But, can pain be eliminated NOW?
    Bertram Jacobus: i think, that can be resolved in every moment, yes
    Bertram Jacobus: at least that is my hope i admit
    Aztlan Foss: heheh
    Aztlan Foss: oh man
    Calvino Rabeni: Resolving I believe, is a hope to be renounced. My personal take on it.
    Bertram Jacobus: yes ? ;-)
    Aztlan Foss: that idea makes my head spin
    Bertram Jacobus: ah
    Aztlan Foss: you can solve suffering in a moment
    Bertram Jacobus: :-)
    Aztlan Foss: and a moment CAN be eternal
    Aztlan Foss: NOW
    Aztlan Foss: but, then, a moment of suffering can also be eternal
    Bertram Jacobus: that´s my "business", too : the now (!)
    Aztlan Foss: sometimes you don't get to pick
    Bertram Jacobus: much more then rebirth and all thoses things
    Aztlan Foss: every instance can be divided infinitely. so, every instance is eternal and you can experience is as either bliss or hell
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Aztlan Foss: does that eternal instance of bliss make suffering not exist?
    Calvino Rabeni: Take your pick
    Calvino Rabeni: No
    Calvino Rabeni: Bliss and suffereing don't seem opposites
    Aztlan Foss: but you don't get to pick all the time
    Aztlan Foss: hmmm
    Calvino Rabeni: You can pick your actions / intentions, but not their results
    Bertram Jacobus: i don´t think, that "a moment of suffering" can be eternal, because : suffering always must be a composed thing, but a real moment seems not to be composed in my understanding
    Calvino Rabeni: at least, by a hindu philosophy
    Calvino Rabeni: But still, philosophy should not be a "trick" to get out of suffering
    Calvino Rabeni: That is an attachment to likes / dislikes.
    Calvino Rabeni: Bert, I don't mean that is what I thought you meant :)
    Bertram Jacobus: but isn´t all which heals ok ?
    Calvino Rabeni: Say more?
    Bertram Jacobus: even when a philosophy shows you a way out of suffering - that was my refer here
    Bertram Jacobus: but i agree with buddhas words again : you don´t need the boat anymore when the travel is done
    Calvino Rabeni: OK
    Bertram Jacobus: :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: Suffering is a complicated subject
    Bertram Jacobus: for me, it´s essence is in the aspect of being divided
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes I think I know something similar
    Bertram Jacobus: when nothing is divided anymore - suffering ends
    Calvino Rabeni: Makes sense
    Calvino Rabeni: having a "like" of bliss and a "dislike" of suffering - in that sense - IS the condition of suffering
    Bertram Jacobus: hehe. yes. and this is my state : have an idea and partly understanding of the theory ...
    Bertram Jacobus: but to realize it fully ...
    Bertram Jacobus: still work to be done - no idea how much
    Calvino Rabeni: In a less ultimate sense, perhaps - in fairly normal experience - that is where we live...
    Calvino Rabeni: And in that realm, suffering seems pretty much about wanting things to be other than they are
    Calvino Rabeni: Not about the situation outside of that
    Aztlan Foss: so enjoying bliss and disliking suffering is it's self one of the sources of suffering?
    Bertram Jacobus: yes. again : i very often think in relative and so to call absolute regards ...
    Calvino Rabeni: I would say yes
    Aztlan Foss: oh ok I get it
    Aztlan Foss: people suffer becaues things aren't the way they want them to be
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Bertram Jacobus: very nice talk again here today - but i´ll leave for now - may all beings be happy please - and ty ! :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye, Bert, good to talk to you :)
    Calvino Rabeni: And Aztlan - thanks for joining us
    Bertram Jacobus: ty really same same :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: I need to go also - it is late here
    Calvino Rabeni: same same :)
    Bertram Jacobus: :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: bye for now Aztlan

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