2009.12.26 13:00 - Unpacking Anger

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    The Guardian for this meeting was SophiaSharon Larnia. The comments are by SophiaSharon Larnia.

    The participants of this discussion included Liza, Zen, Calvino, SophiaP, Yakuzza, Eos, Tarmel, Stevenaia, Zon, Arabella, and Bolonath, with Foxtree arriving after. Zen brought up the topic of Anger, and the discussion progressed from there. Anger was discussed as: affirming the ego... as a form of attachment... as a form of an alert system -- communicating a need for energy for action to create change... Anger, Grief and Fear as an emotional tripod... and the rawness of it all.  And St. Stephen with his rose made an appearance on his day :).


    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Liza :)
    Liza Deischer: Hi Sophia
    Liza Deischer: you had a good christmas day?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes :) always too short after the preparations though, how about you?
    Liza Deischer: yes, I have
    Liza Deischer: the preparations take longer then the day itself
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes, parties and such leading up to it...
    SophiaSharon Larnia: its almost like you expect it to last a week
    Liza Deischer: :-)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Zen
    Liza Deischer: hi Zen
    Zen Arado: Hi Sophia and Liza
    SophiaSharon Larnia: how was your christmas day, Zen?
    Zen Arado: ok I go to my niece's house
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    Zen Arado: and yours?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i found myself doing several dropping exercises in a room full of people :) Good, Zen
    Zen Arado: dropping what?
    Liza Deischer: thats the real work :-)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes, challenging for me
    SophiaSharon Larnia: dropping in the PaB sense
    Zen Arado: I dropped a wine galss
    Liza Deischer: :-)
    Zen Arado: bought some plastic ones today
    SophiaSharon Larnia: ah yes, i dropped a pair of scissors on my foot
    SophiaSharon Larnia: (closed) haha
    SophiaSharon Larnia: good idea!
    Liza Deischer: autch
    Zen Arado: Hi Calvino :)
    Liza Deischer: hi Cal
    SophiaSharon Larnia: HI Calvino
    Calvino Rabeni: Hello Zen and everyone!
    Zen Arado: that could be dangerous Sophia
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes! it was quite hectic at the time
    Zen Arado: dropping anger Sophia?
    Liza Deischer: some things you shouldn't drop
    SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles
    Liza Deischer: :-)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Yakuzza
    Liza Deischer: hi Yakuzza
    Zen Arado: old family resentments can boil up at Christmas
    Zen Arado: Hi Yaku
    SophiaSharon Larnia: just drop what I am, what I have, to see what is left
    Calvino Rabeni: konnichiwa, yaku-san
    SophiaSharon Larnia: and I just saw other beings in the room, all explorers
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Sophia
    Liza Deischer: hi Sophia
    sophia Placebo: hi sharon , all
    Zen Arado: Hi Sophia P
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey SP
    Zen Arado: other beings?
    Zen Arado: ah I see what you mean
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes, hard to explain, other thinking beings like myself, what are we all underneath that
    Zen Arado: yes
    Zen Arado: "One reason anger is so painful is that it constructs such a powerful sense of self and other. In this way, anger strongly resembles fear." Shaoron Sakzber
    SophiaSharon Larnia: ah well, still experimenting with it
    Zen Arado: anger separates
    Zen Arado: so love rejoins?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: there is little that makes you feel your ego as much as anger does, the way i see it
    Liza Deischer: passion?
    Zen Arado: yes you become ego protective don't you?
    Zen Arado: especially if other person accuses you of being slefish, lazy etc.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: would that apply to any strong emotion then?
    Zen Arado: but you an have good emotions too?
    Liza Deischer: there is anger, and there is attachment, both very powerful
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey eos
    Calvino Rabeni: You can ask, what is it that anger wants you to DO?
    Liza Deischer: hi Eos
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Eos
    Zen Arado: Hi Eos
    Eos Amaterasu: HI Avs!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: laughs
    sophia Placebo: hi eos
    Yakuzza Lethecus: just avs ?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: not beings ?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: :P
    Calvino Rabeni: It seems to me, anger wants to erase separation
    SophiaSharon Larnia: if you feel something strongly, isnt that being attached to it in some way
    Eos Amaterasu: are we not beings? we are Being!
    Calvino Rabeni: It comes because the separation has already happened
    SophiaSharon Larnia: nods
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Stevenaia
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello
    Zen Arado: but anger can reinforce separation I think
    Liza Deischer: hi Steven
    Zen Arado: Hi Stevenia
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hi steven
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Zon
    Zen Arado: you become defensive
    Liza Deischer: hi Zon
    Eos Amaterasu: hi steve, zon
    Zen Arado: Hi Zon
    Zon Quar: heya
    Zen Arado: or attacking
    Calvino Rabeni: You can ask about any emotion - when you are in it - what does it want you to DO, and for what purpose
    sophia Placebo: cant anger be just an alert ?
    Eos Amaterasu: it is
    Eos Amaterasu: then I add more
    Zen Arado: ever notice how you don't want to reveal too much to someone after you have had a row with them?
    Calvino Rabeni: Emotions are DOING things, not "feelings"
    Eos Amaterasu: ways of being?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i dont understand that Calvino, can you say more?
    Liza Deischer: I agree Cal
    Eos Amaterasu: how you handle reality
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, emotions are compelling because they are about doing things in the world, about acting
    Eos Amaterasu: freeze it out with anger, suck it in with passion
    Calvino Rabeni: And about communication , about social situations, about things needing to change
    Calvino Rabeni: Emotions are more communications for others, than feelings for oneself
    Liza Deischer: hi Tarmel
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Bertram, and Tarmel :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey bert, tamel :)
    Liza Deischer: hi Bertram
    Zen Arado: Hi Bert
    Zen Arado: Hi Tarmel
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi Tarmel!, Hi Bert,
    Tarmel Udimo: hello everyone! and merry christmas:)
    Calvino Rabeni: western psychology wanted to say emotions were private internal experiences
    Calvino Rabeni: but they are not, they are social, that is why we feel disturbed by them
    Calvino Rabeni: because they ask one to be social
    Calvino Rabeni: which seems dangerous
    Liza Deischer: most people don't make difference between emotions and feelings
    Zon Quar: nods, emotion causes motion
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    SophiaSharon Larnia: I'm afraid I still don't understand... I have a friend who is very ill, and I've been very angry about that, although there in no one to be angry at, and no way to fix things.
    sophia Placebo: bbl
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Sophia
    SophiaSharon Larnia: so is that personal emotion in the same sense as you mean?
    Eos Amaterasu: I think just letting that be in its rawness is quite okay
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, your friend is ill, and anger tells you, that you are the kind of person who would make your friend well, if only you could
    Eos Amaterasu: without pushing or pulling it, of course :-)
    Eos Amaterasu: Hypothesis: the first flash of anything is okay
    Liza Deischer: and if you could and you would know what makes you angry, you want to show your anger
    Calvino Rabeni: And also the anger tells others you would make your friend well if you could
    Calvino Rabeni: If you didn't have it, others might think you would not do that, would not care
    Liza Deischer: I disagree Eos
    Zon Quar: coud u say feelings are built in emotions that then act as energy for action ?
    Calvino Rabeni: they are energy for action, you can use them that way
    Calvino Rabeni: they want different things, depending on their quality
    Eos Amaterasu: Liza, how about in next 90 sec period watching the first flash of anger (if it pops up) or any other emotion
    Liza Deischer: ok
    Zon Quar: or could u say a feeling arises when u receive information in from ur environment throught ur senses, and then u process that information and feelings, which causes in u an emotion to act out in a certain way ?
    Liza Deischer: there are only a few emotions, but a lot of different feelings
    Eos Amaterasu: what did you experience?
    Liza Deischer: inpatience
    Eos Amaterasu: :-)
    Liza Deischer: feels like being angry a little :-)
    Eos Amaterasu: yes.... I get that a lot while driving :-)
    Tarmel Udimo: sorry folks, I just dropped in to say merrry christmas, so I will be off..
    Eos Amaterasu: Bye Tarmel, nice to see you!
    Liza Deischer: bye tarmel
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Merry Christmas Tarmel :)
    Tarmel Udimo: BFN
    Liza Deischer: i think what we feel first is born out of the habit to feel like that after a certain situation
    Eos Amaterasu: yes, quite often
    Eos Amaterasu: "love potion #9"
    Calvino Rabeni: zon, I was reading your last question
    Liza Deischer: that habit can be based on a good 'thing', but can also
    Liza Deischer: strengthen your ego
    Eos Amaterasu: give it apparent appearance
    Zen Arado: Hi Ara
    Liza Deischer: hi Ara
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Arabella
    arabella Ella: Hiya everyone!
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi Ara
    Zon Quar: ara:)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hi ara :)
    arabella Ella: good to c u all on st stephens day
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Hello :)
    Liza Deischer: on what ?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: st stephen with a rose, in and out of the garden he goes
    Zen Arado: anger at the way things go is not healthy - you either do something about it or forget the anger I think
    arabella Ella: people call it boxing day but i find that too conflictual
    Eos Amaterasu: wherever he goes the people all complain
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    Liza Deischer: boxing dag!
    arabella Ella: in a christmas carol people sing 'on the feast of stephen' fafalala
    Zen Arado: Good King Wencelas looked out...
    Calvino Rabeni: Eos, who can give the answer to the answer man?
    Liza Deischer: ok, wel never heard of the guy
    arabella Ella: :)
    Liza Deischer: :-)
    arabella Ella: u have now
    Eos Amaterasu: :-)
    Liza Deischer: yes :-)
    arabella Ella: name day for all people called stephen is today
    Eos Amaterasu: stevenaia!
    Liza Deischer: ah, thats what it is about
    arabella Ella: yes
    Zen Arado: Hi Bolo
    Liza Deischer: I unerstand your anger Sophia, at least for a part, but I think wat is really interesting is what it is that makes you angry
    Bolonath Crystal: namaste :)
    Liza Deischer: hi Bolo
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Bolonath
    arabella Ella: apologies for interrupting Soph
    SophiaSharon Larnia: nooo no worries
    arabella Ella: and Stevenaia is with us again ... happy name day!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Did it matter? does it now? Stephen would answer if he only knew how
    SophiaSharon Larnia: (song , :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: HI Eden
    Zen Arado: Hi EDen
    Liza Deischer: ah :-)
    Liza Deischer: hi Eden
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    Eden Haiku: HI !
    Eos Amaterasu: Sunlight splatters dawn (=Eos) with answer
    SophiaSharon Larnia: well, this anger has been ongoing and tiring, i know its unhealthy, but it seems to arise on its own, not true, of course, but trying to deal with it
    SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles
    Eos Amaterasu: rail, rail against the dying of the light
    Liza Deischer: is this anger related to fear?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: "darkness shrugs and bids the day goodbye"
    Calvino Rabeni: yes related to fear
    Zon Quar: anger should not be repressed
    Eos Amaterasu: nor acted out
    Zen Arado: 'be the anger' I was told
    Zon Quar: watch it
    Zen Arado: observe it?
    Eos Amaterasu: let it flash - you can't hold on to it
    Bolonath Crystal: to look at where the anger comes from would be a good lakshya for meditation
    Eos Amaterasu: you make up reasons to recreate it
    Zen Arado: don't think 'venting ' is good
    Calvino Rabeni: freud thought emotions were substances, like steam in a boiler - a 19th century metaphor
    Liza Deischer: being the anger is a way to peal off the layers
    Zen Arado: it is ust recreating it
    arabella Ella: are the forces that give rise to the anger beyond control?
    Liza Deischer: because the anger can't stay, it needs to subside to something different
    Eos Amaterasu: discontinuity brings humor, which we get pissed off at, try to deny, in the middle of anger :-)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: grief
    Eos Amaterasu: that's more profound
    Calvino Rabeni: If one imagines an emotion as a being with a message for you, rather than as a substance, what does it mean / want?
    Calvino Rabeni: What does grief "want"?
    Zen Arado: it wants to flow naturally
    Zen Arado: until it subsides
    arabella Ella: otherwise?
    Calvino Rabeni: What does it want you to know or do?
    Zen Arado: listens
    Calvino Rabeni: when you are having it, you have the insight from it, not looking from the outside
    Calvino Rabeni: I have a personal answer but I wanted to ask others first
    arabella Ella: does it not make one feel very vulnerable?
    Zon Quar: anger meant thing r not goint teh way i expected
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    Liza Deischer: to me grief is not wanting to let go
    Zen Arado: my anger is usually because my ego has ben threatened, diminished
    arabella Ella: as though a force that wishes to destroy part of us is there ... exists
    Calvino Rabeni: what if you let go, what happens?
    Liza Deischer: then I fear to be shattered all over the place
    Calvino Rabeni: I was proposing, see emotion as a messenger, not a force, then it will reveal something different
    Liza Deischer: thinking nothing is left
    Liza Deischer: that ego really doesn't exhist
    Calvino Rabeni: nothing but a memory>
    Liza Deischer: while I am still hoping that I am wrong :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: the past still seems to exist as a memory, does grief change it?
    Zen Arado: I know but the illusion does :)
    Eos Amaterasu: grief can be like a force of nature
    Eos Amaterasu: and very close to the nature of nature
    Zen Arado: grief is necessary - anger is not
    Liza Deischer: messenger.....pondering
    Zen Arado: ?
    Calvino Rabeni: what does nature want you to know, by bringing grief to you?
    Eos Amaterasu: nature has no agenda
    arabella Ella: exposes weaknesses ... vulnerability
    SophiaSharon Larnia: thats the worst for me to ponder
    Eos Amaterasu: "the mother does not take sides - she cares only for the balance of nature" - from "Avatar"
    Zon Quar: nature says,, u did it wrong somehow
    Calvino Rabeni: seems painful
    Calvino Rabeni: I believe all the emotions have their positive message
    Bolonath Crystal: i also think so, cal
    Liza Deischer: that you can let go
    Calvino Rabeni: if one could drop the fear of weakness and vulnerability, what would grief offer then
    arabella Ella: perhaps you could share your message with us Calvino as you said you would please?
    Bolonath Crystal: negativ emotions show us where we are still attached to ego
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I felt I could let go the fear of loss that is mixed with the grief
    Calvino Rabeni: The grief says - you have to let go of something that you are losing
    arabella Ella: ah
    Calvino Rabeni: It says, what do you make of that?
    Calvino Rabeni: I saw from that, it is asking me to treasure things
    Calvino Rabeni: and to act in the future like they are important
    Calvino Rabeni: by recognizing their meaning in the past
    Calvino Rabeni: so it turned into gratitude for what I have
    Calvino Rabeni: And I felt that a positive message
    arabella Ella: yes
    arabella Ella: ty
    arabella Ella: but not easy
    Calvino Rabeni: Grief can be releasing, but also energizing of a fresh feeling for the future
    Liza Deischer: thank you cal, that is a very nice way to look at it
    Calvino Rabeni: no not easy
    Zen Arado: seeing the preciousness of everything arouns us...
    Liza Deischer: no but instead letting grief get the better of you, you are allowing yoursef to use it, act on it
    Zen Arado: and how impermanent it is...
    Liza Deischer: that's great
    Calvino Rabeni: using it, yes, but in a way that IT wants
    Calvino Rabeni: It feels authentic, I meant
    Liza Deischer: yes, I understand
    Liza Deischer: (I need to let the Fool come out)
    Calvino Rabeni: THere are different types of people - not a standard model of human
    Liza Deischer: (...a bit more)
    Calvino Rabeni: with emotions I meant, different proportions
    Liza Deischer: does that help Sophia what Cal is offering?
    Calvino Rabeni: something about being a self - with different mixes of ongoing emotions
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes, Ill have to think about it more :)
    Bolonath Crystal bows to everyone. om shanti, have a nice day :)
    Calvino Rabeni: the proportions different in different people, some more angry some more fearful, some more sad
    SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Bolonath
    Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
    arabella Ella: bye Bolo
    Liza Deischer: bye Bolo
    Zen Arado: bye Bolo
    Eos Amaterasu: Bye all, festive season to all
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    Liza Deischer: bye Eos
    arabella Ella: bye Eos
    SophiaSharon Larnia: I have to go to work now, but will read the rest of the log when I post it, bye for now :)
    Zen Arado: Bye Eos
    arabella Ella: bye SophS
    Liza Deischer: bye Sophia
    Zen Arado: Bye Sharon
    Eden Haiku: Bye!
    Liza Deischer: Bye Eden
    arabella Ella: bye Eden
    Zen Arado: Bye Eden
    Liza Deischer: Im going too
    Liza Deischer: bye for now
    Zen Arado: Bye Liza
    arabella Ella: nite Liza
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye Liza
    arabella Ella: could you say more Calvino please?
    Calvino Rabeni: yes, i think, it was useful for me to accept that others have different characteristic mixes of emotions
    Zen Arado: yes it is interesting
    Calvino Rabeni: thus I had less reason to think they were somehow wrong
    Calvino Rabeni: or that I was, relative to them
    Calvino Rabeni: more acceptance of differences
    Calvino Rabeni: second, it is a kind of analytical model of character
    arabella Ella listens
    stevenaia Michinaga: I must go, see you soon
    arabella Ella: bye Steve
    Calvino Rabeni: bye stevenaia
    stevenaia Michinaga: happy holidays
    Zen Arado: I have to go too
    arabella Ella: nite Zen
    Zen Arado: bye
    Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
    arabella Ella: so Calvino if I may ...
    Calvino Rabeni: please
    arabella Ella: some people are more sensitive to grief and perhaps anger than others
    arabella Ella: those who are genuinely more laid back appear to suffer less
    arabella Ella: perhaps because they ... let their grief and anger flow ... or perhaps they drop them ...
    arabella Ella: what do you think?
    Calvino Rabeni: people vary in their expressivity
    arabella Ella: but that is only outward isnt it ... expressivity i mean?
    Calvino Rabeni: in the simple model I have in mind, the big three are fear, anger, grief
    arabella Ella: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: and a given person may be motivated primarily by one of those
    arabella Ella nods
    Calvino Rabeni: and represss one of those to the point of being rather unaware
    Calvino Rabeni: an angry person may repress fear
    Calvino Rabeni: a fearful person may repress anger
    Zon Quar: difference between grief and fear ?
    Calvino Rabeni: do they feel different?
    Calvino Rabeni: grief seems to be about the past
    Calvino Rabeni: fear about the future
    Calvino Rabeni: grief about something lost
    Calvino Rabeni: fear about something you think might happen but don't want
    arabella Ella: and do you think the three of them always go together ... in your simple model?
    Zon Quar: the point seems to be that u desire something and ur desire gets blocked, so one of those 3 arises
    Calvino Rabeni: if I look at my experience there seem to be layers
    Calvino Rabeni: an outer one, then others underneath
    Calvino Rabeni: under anger may be fear
    arabella Ella: is the outer one the image projected to others?
    Calvino Rabeni: the anger "wants" the fearful situation to be resolved
    Calvino Rabeni: I think it is the one they can see, and the one that the person chooses to communicate
    Calvino Rabeni: yes, I agree with your statement
    Calvino Rabeni: the story gets more complex the more it is looked at
    Calvino Rabeni: zon's question is interesting
    Calvino Rabeni: u desire something and ur desire gets blocked, so one of those 3 arises
    Calvino Rabeni: when the desire gets blocked, the "feeling" intensifies
    Calvino Rabeni: when it flows, the desire is there, but finding its fulfillment in a flowing way
    Calvino Rabeni: so there are two levels - the flowing aspect and the frustrated aspect, which seems rigid and problematical
    arabella Ella: yes
    Zon Quar: someone tries to come between the object of my desire.. i feel anger or fear of losing
    arabella Ella: and
    Zon Quar: or both
    arabella Ella: a desire could be blocked by oneself, by others, or by circumstances
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: often by oneself
    arabella Ella: not always
    Calvino Rabeni: I think there are always ways to work with circumstances
    Calvino Rabeni: or usually?
    Calvino Rabeni: can a desire be blocked by others?
    arabella Ella: at times others cause us unexpected grief and if you reflect you realise that they may be blocking or sabotaging a desire acknowledged or not
    Calvino Rabeni: yes :)
    Calvino Rabeni: and oneself may do that to oneself
    arabella Ella: also ... yes
    Zon Quar: by having conflicting desires
    Calvino Rabeni: it is hard, when the "social climate" is not open to feeling freely
    arabella Ella: well are we not always balancing things out in life ... like holding measuring scales to some extent?
    Calvino Rabeni: or deeply
    Calvino Rabeni: maybe things are never in balance or settled
    Calvino Rabeni: seems ok...
    arabella Ella: exactly they are rarely in balance so we make choices depending on which way the scales tip
    Zon Quar: ppl r often unconscious of their inner conflicts
    Calvino Rabeni: It is like surfing or skiing, always off balance
    arabella Ella: i like that analogy
    Calvino Rabeni: but there is a skill to those activities :)
    arabella Ella: yes ... and a paradox ... full total control versus risk and total lack of control
    Calvino Rabeni: inner conflicts - yes a pretty murky domain
    Calvino Rabeni: nice paradox
    arabella Ella: :)
    arabella Ella: biking too
    Calvino Rabeni: people like it - it is fun, so they do it a lot once they get over the fear of being out of control
    arabella Ella: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: mountain biking, twisty trails
    Calvino Rabeni: or dancing, any kind of movement that is partly given by what one can't pre-program
    arabella Ella: but ... back to topic ... anger, grief and fear ... like a triangle ... a tripod ... a balancing act perhaps?
    Calvino Rabeni: Maybe it is like an engine, more than a stable pyramid
    Calvino Rabeni: But, there could be some use in trying to be balanced, to be at ease with all three
    arabella Ella: do you mean the steam you mentioned earlier?
    Calvino Rabeni: I was not thinking that metaphor, but a dynamic play of 3 different forces
    Zon Quar: balancing energies caused by feelings caused by expectations together with perceptions
    Calvino Rabeni: Hindus have something like that - three Gunas
    arabella Ella: mmmmm
    arabella Ella: and Zon ... would you not also include upbringing ... the nurture part of our selves?
    Calvino Rabeni: zon, there is an idea of things being caused in a sequence, in what you said
    Zon Quar: yes..like inbearth and outbreath
    Calvino Rabeni: I can see a western idea in that, maybe an eastern one also
    Zon Quar: u breath in..feeling
    Zon Quar: i breath out--emotion
    Calvino Rabeni: that distinction is about receptive vs active?
    Zon Quar: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: OK
    Zon Quar: like yin and yang..lol
    Calvino Rabeni: sensing vs moving - classic physiology separates them into afferent and efferent
    Calvino Rabeni: but in the experience they are mixed
    Calvino Rabeni: when one extends a hand, it is both moving and feeling its way
    Calvino Rabeni: as is any body activity I suppose
    Zon Quar: like yin and yang
    arabella Ella: yes
    Zon Quar: mixed
    Calvino Rabeni: like yin and yang mixed pretty thoroughly
    arabella Ella: also applies to other stuff ... like Kant's sensibility and understanding
    Calvino Rabeni: the "given" and the "taken"
    arabella Ella nods
    arabella Ella: we tend to bifurcate so many things which are naturally so intermingled
    Calvino Rabeni: indeed, excluding the middle
    Calvino Rabeni: which is where the action is :)
    arabella Ella: yes exactly
    Zon Quar: or u could say feelings r steam that flows in ur container, and when there is enough steam, the pressure makes them emotions
    Zon Quar: and urge to act emerges
    Calvino Rabeni: some body oriented psychologists called it "resistance to experience"
    Calvino Rabeni: I think I know what you mean
    Calvino Rabeni: Sometimes nursing the energy by restraining it seems worthwhile
    Yakuzza Lethecus: ur interest in psychology is also just a part of general curiousity cal ?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: ur a computer tech guy so to speak :P ?
    Zon Quar: getting late, goodnight all...
    Yakuzza Lethecus: night zon
    arabella Ella: Calvino definitely seems to be well read
    arabella Ella: nite Zon
    Calvino Rabeni: Good night, Zon
    Calvino Rabeni: I try to investigate things through practice
    Yakuzza Lethecus: my main issue is that i am also very interested in these topics but suffer from the issue that i don´t know whats true and how we gain knowledge
    Yakuzza Lethecus: so you end up reading about popper, kuhn, feyerabend... :P
    Calvino Rabeni: So many books, so little time :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: while i still have my problems with psychoanalysis even knowing that freud wanted to be a research scientist in his early years
    Calvino Rabeni: It is worth having a strategy for efficient learning
    Yakuzza Lethecus: impossible for him because vienna was damn catholic :)
    Calvino Rabeni: what do you make of freud
    Yakuzza Lethecus: nothing i don´t care unless is flashes
    Yakuzza Lethecus: right now i really don´t know where to put him
    Calvino Rabeni: freud vs jung vs reich ...
    Yakuzza Lethecus: you read them all ?
    arabella Ella: what do you make of them Calvino?
    Calvino Rabeni: I am wondering if they are 3 different legs of the tripod we were talking about earlier
    Calvino Rabeni: just a speculation
    arabella Ella: it is likely they could be interpreted in that way i guess
    Calvino Rabeni: jung didn't mind going into the mystic and transpersonal, mythology
    arabella Ella: Freud would be feat
    Calvino Rabeni: Freud feared that I think
    arabella Ella: Jung would be grief with the archetypes
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    arabella Ella: I dont know reich?
    Calvino Rabeni: Anger on that pyramid
    arabella Ella: ah
    Calvino Rabeni: He was about energy and expression
    Yakuzza Lethecus: pyramid ?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: maslow ?
    Calvino Rabeni: I don't know his personal character. He had an integrative theory
    arabella Ella: ah perhaps we should bring maslow or possibly adler into the equation
    arabella Ella: i would love to continue to chat but it is late here nearly midnight ... so gnite Yaku and Calvino!
    Yakuzza Lethecus: night ara
    arabella Ella: and thanks for the interesting chat
    Calvino Rabeni: As always ara, a pleasure to chat with you
    Calvino Rabeni: Hello, Foxtree!
    Foxtree Gorbunov: Hi Calvino
    Foxtree Gorbunov: hay Yakuzza
    Foxtree Gorbunov: Deeper meaning of life....New Year eve....Passing of time
    Calvino Rabeni: I feel some of that in these winter holiday times
    Foxtree Gorbunov: Sorry I hit the send button to soon.....
    Foxtree Gorbunov: I thought I broke the 90 seconds of silence when I came in....I am happy to see I did not. But, I see ever one is into deep thinking
    Calvino Rabeni: Fox, how are things going?
    Foxtree Gorbunov: Okay, Cal, (If I may call you Cal)
    Calvino Rabeni: Sure
    Yakuzza Lethecus: foxtree
    Foxtree Gorbunov: Coming off a hard week of work
    Yakuzza Lethecus: ehy
    Foxtree Gorbunov: My mind goes to strange places with I get over worked
    Calvino Rabeni: Mine too
    Foxtree Gorbunov: looking for the meaning of life and all
    Calvino Rabeni: sometimes it is colored by some pain from overwork
    Foxtree Gorbunov: Why are we working our selves to death over a few gifts
    Foxtree Gorbunov: colored pain...? there a song in that
    Foxtree Gorbunov: Blue is sad, Red, Anger,
    Calvino Rabeni: The discussion earlier was about emotions
    Foxtree Gorbunov: I feel deeply about emotions
    Foxtree Gorbunov: I could not pass take one up.
    Foxtree Gorbunov: sorry
    Foxtree Gorbunov: telling bad jokes take the shappen of the colored pain out... To keep useing the medafor (sp)
    Calvino Rabeni: How to come back into wholeness
    Foxtree Gorbunov: truth...I never understood the "wholeness" philosophy
    Calvino Rabeni: Ok, if you are too much something, then what else is there?
    Foxtree Gorbunov: Well, it like too much food or water. You can have too much at one time....But sometimes you have too little
    Calvino Rabeni: Too much Work :)
    Foxtree Gorbunov: Some times too much anger, other times too little anger
    Foxtree Gorbunov: Is not life a flow, doing with what you got
    Foxtree Gorbunov: Also if you got too much of an emotion, How do you let it go
    Calvino Rabeni: maybe by looking for a different one to have
    Calvino Rabeni: OR by making agreements
    Calvino Rabeni: with self?
    Foxtree Gorbunov: And emotion that are not emotions. Over work=over stress, or to little sleep?
    Calvino Rabeni: sleep matters yes
    Foxtree Gorbunov: Also I miss my dead friend, to the point of my heart breaking over and over. This time of year only seem to make that feel much more painfull. How do I "dump" that.
    Foxtree Gorbunov: I just wish there was a step by step guide to help with the out of the blue feelings.
    Calvino Rabeni: honor your friends memory, maybe?
    Calvino Rabeni: that is an important question
    Foxtree Gorbunov: I give to MADD.
    Foxtree Gorbunov: I gave up drinking my self
    Calvino Rabeni: I think that would help, both those things
    Foxtree Gorbunov: The thing is that the hurt is still deep as it was years ago.
    Foxtree Gorbunov: Sorry about the venting
    Calvino Rabeni: I have things like that - I don't expect them to go away. But I do hope to have life beyond it
    Calvino Rabeni: OK
    Foxtree Gorbunov: okay....
    Calvino Rabeni: Holiday times are full of feeling for many people
    Foxtree Gorbunov: Got it
    Calvino Rabeni: I used to dread them a bit
    Foxtree Gorbunov: .........
    Calvino Rabeni: Thanks for coming, Fox
    Calvino Rabeni: bye
    Calvino Rabeni: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashland,_Oregon
    Calvino Rabeni: http://www.bernsteintapes.com/hegellist.html
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