2009.12.27 13:00 - Rules, roles and trains

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    Wol Euler was guardian for this session. Comments will be added later.


    Bertram Jacobus: Rwhaow - yaku ! already here (?) :-)

    Yakuzza Lethecus: nabend bert

    Bertram Jacobus: i write in english - for the log - sry (?) :-)

    Yakuzza Lethecus: i dunno, maybe some ppl might pick up a bit german through the log on the contrary :D

    Bertram Jacobus: hehe. auch richtig ;-)

    Yakuzza Lethecus: english ist kampflos die weltsprache geworden in deutschland :P

    Yakuzza Lethecus: die franzosen wehren sich mehr

    Bertram Jacobus: not only in germany - worldwide ! and i support it : it's the easiest language worldwide as well i guess -

    Yakuzza Lethecus: in frankreich und spanien kann man kaum erwarten das die menschen englisch reden :)


    Bertram Jacobus: i disagree : in france i make experiences that more and more people can speak english too

    Yakuzza Lethecus: i dunno, it's just easy because it's easy to keep contact with it but from what i told esperanto is much easier but it wasn't taught since middleschool :)

    Bertram Jacobus: hey wol ! :-)

    Wol Euler: hello bert, yaku

    Yakuzza Lethecus: nabend wol :)

    Wol Euler: schönen nachmittag :)

    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey eden

    Bertram Jacobus: Ähm - sry ? here it's 10 pm (?) :-)

    Wol Euler: hello eden, merry christmas

    Bertram Jacobus: hello eden and liza :-)

    Yakuzza Lethecus: she's in kanada right now :P

    Wol Euler: ah, but I am not "here", bert, I'm in canada

    Bertram Jacobus: he ? :o)

    Liza Deischer: hi all

    Wol Euler: hello liza, merry christmas

    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey liza

    Yakuzza Lethecus: and welcom zon

    Liza Deischer: hi Zon

    Zon Quar: heya

    Wol Euler: hello zon

    Bertram Jacobus: hi zon :-)

    Bertram Jacobus: what are you doing in canada wol ? (!) :-)

    Wol Euler: visiting family, I grew up in Toronto

    Eden Haiku: Hello Yakuzza, Bertram, Liza and invisible Zon. Wol are you still in Toronto?

    Wol Euler: mmhmm, four more days

    Bertram Jacobus: nice . wide country, big ...

    Wol Euler: disappointingly warm, it's +5 and raining in toronto right now

    Eden Haiku: It is raining in Montreal today. How is the weather in Toronto?

    Bertram Jacobus: oh. ah. and - is there more freedom in canada then in germany ?

    Eden Haiku: Well, it is telapthy with a bit of lag it seems Wol...

    Wol Euler: I've no idea, Bert, what does "freedom" mean? :)

    Wol Euler smiles at Eden.

    Eden Haiku: hello Zen, my twitter friend!

    Liza Deischer: hi Zen

    Zon Quar: hi zen

    Wol Euler: hello zen, merry christmas

    Zen Arado: Hi all

    Bertram Jacobus: freedom ? in the end enlightenment i think, something absolute. but before : more or less boundries wol (?)

    Bertram Jacobus: hi zen :-)

    Wol Euler: more boundaries, I think, bert: more and different rules than I am used to, different roles than I usually play

    Zen Arado: yes Eden :)

    Bertram Jacobus: whaow - i wouldn't have expected that

    Wol Euler shrugs. Family enforces its own traditions and rules

    Zen Arado: and expectations...

    Wol Euler: mmhmm

    Zen Arado: for how you should behave

    Eden Haiku: Yes, family is like a cloud of untold rules and programs we run as soon as we gather isn'it?

    Bertram Jacobus: a friend of mine, many years ago, was very confused about problems we had on a tour through the former ddr (eastern germany - in that times part of the soviet block) - may be that he was not used to that . and now you not used to the canadian rules ?

    Wol Euler: indeed.

    Zen Arado: nods

    Zen Arado: or told rules

    Zen Arado: :)

    Eden Haiku: Also...

    Eden Haiku: Different family styles...

    Bertram Jacobus: hi alianaluz :-)

    Zen Arado: Hi Alianaluz

    Wol Euler: feel free to join us

    Zen Arado: I hear nice Bach?

    Zen Arado: ah

    Eden Haiku: I see a little cat with a red ribbon!

    Alianaluz Rivera: hello

    Liza Deischer: hi alianaluz

    Alianaluz Rivera: its a tiny polar bear:)

    Zon Quar: hi ali

    Eden Haiku: Hello!

    Alianaluz Rivera: hello zon

    Liza Deischer: :-)

    Alianaluz Rivera: hello eden

    Eden Haiku: Nice violin...

    Alianaluz Rivera: pardon, i didnt know it was still attached

    Wol Euler: have you been here before, Ali?

    Alianaluz Rivera: i dont want to distrub you

    Alianaluz Rivera: i dont know. im random map-hopping

    Alianaluz Rivera: where is "here?"

    Wol Euler: we are a meditation group called "play as being"

    Wol Euler: if you are interested, I'll give you an introduciton in IM;

    Eden Haiku: Yes, please feel welcomed to sit with us Alianaluz.

    Zen Arado: we talk more than we meditate :)

    Bertram Jacobus: lol

    Liza Deischer: :-)


    Wol Euler: so, how are we all feeling? Does anyone have anything to discuss?

    Eden Haiku: Feeling good!

    Zen Arado: :)

    Zen Arado: that good Eden?

    Eden Haiku: I was answering Wol question...

    Zen Arado: I know :)

    Alianaluz Rivera: pardon, i crashed

    Eden Haiku: That is a nice gesture Bertram!

    Wol Euler: np, wb

    Bertram Jacobus: np at all alianaluz , wb ;-)

    Alianaluz Rivera: thank you

    Eden Haiku: Welcome back Alianaluz!

    Alianaluz Rivera: thank you eden

    Zen Arado: Ali reminded me of a video I saw on Facebook

    Bertram Jacobus: hehe . i like it too eden. part of an ao, if one flies not high enough ... :-)

    Alianaluz Rivera: ja?

    Eden Haiku: I didn't know polar bears purred?

    Alianaluz Rivera: what was the video?

    Alianaluz Rivera: teeny tiny polar ones do:)

    Alianaluz Rivera: they purr and make wookie-like sounds

    Eden Haiku: Nice ;-)

    Zen Arado: it showed a famous violinist playing the Bach Chaconne for unaccompanied vio;in

    Bertram Jacobus: lol :-)

    Alianaluz Rivera: cool zen:)

    Zen Arado: in a subway in Washington

    Alianaluz Rivera: washington...

    Alianaluz Rivera: state?

    Zen Arado: but most just walked on by and never noticed

    Zen Arado: city

    Alianaluz Rivera: i love to listen to street musicians

    Zen Arado: but this was a concert violinist

    Zen Arado: and nobody noticed !

    Wol Euler: :)

    Zen Arado: so what is the moral of that ?

    Eden Haiku: Oh and nobody took notice of him? They did the same experince in Montreal subway.

    Wol Euler: dress as a polar bear to escape detection?

    Zen Arado: :)

    Eden Haiku: A few people stopped by him and said he should give concerts! ;-)

    Liza Deischer: :-)

    Zen Arado: ah yes similar EDen

    Zon Quar: gtg, c u later aa

    Wol Euler: bye zon, take care

    Zen Arado: bye Zon

    Eden Haiku: Good night Zon!

    Liza Deischer: the ones who know what music is all about, will stop

    Bertram Jacobus: take a seat if you like alianaluz ! :-)

    Bertram Jacobus: bye zon

    Liza Deischer: the others are nog able to recognize it

    Zen Arado: yes but there wre surpriusingly few

    Zen Arado: everybody engrossed in their problems

    Eden Haiku: Same here,

    Wol Euler nods.

    Liza Deischer: some can't stop, need to be on time

    Bertram Jacobus: not many may have a profund classical music knowledge or feeling ...

    Liza Deischer: they think...

    Eden Haiku: Yes, the way we pass precious things without ever noticing.

    Zen Arado: yes

    Zen Arado: makes you realize how important the setting is too

    Zen Arado: the trappings of the concert hall

    Liza Deischer: yes, but that isnt necessarily a bad thing

    Zen Arado: thinking.....

    Liza Deischer: sometimes you need to find the right places

    Liza Deischer: and when you found them

    Liza Deischer: it is more easy to open up

    Liza Deischer: or talk about things you normally dont do

    Zen Arado: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...040401721.html

    Liza Deischer: if we weren't in this setting

    Eden Haiku: Thanks for the link.

    Liza Deischer: we probably wouldnt be talking like this

    Wol Euler nods to Liza

    Eden Haiku: yes Liza.

    Wol Euler: though there are other settings that work well for serious, intimate conversation betwen strangers. Trains at night, for example

    Eden Haiku: Trains at night yes, it is so poetic!

    Zen Arado: can be easy to open to a stranger you know you will never see again

    Wol Euler: mmhmm

    Eden Haiku: Strange and mysterious.

    Bertram Jacobus: i thought exactly the same word eden

    Bertram Jacobus: the first one you wrote ;-)

    Eden Haiku: ;-)

    Zen Arado: hehe getting carried away here

    Liza Deischer: true, but you talk probably about other things

    Eden Haiku: poetic?

    Bertram Jacobus: yes :-)

    Eden Haiku: carried away into another realm Zen?

    Zen Arado: the Orient Express ?

    Zen Arado: :)

    Eden Haiku: Did you take it?

    Zen Arado: no


    Eden Haiku: ;-)

    Zen Arado: I once was on a train 2 days in Australia though

    Zen Arado: very boring !

    Liza Deischer: :-)

    Wol Euler: heheh

    Wol Euler: the null-arbor plain?

    Eden Haiku: I remember a very poetic night train ride in Italy years ago. Talking with an Italian stranger. Conversation was in Italian, and hum..., I don't speak italian. There was a lot of kissing involved ;-)

    Zen Arado: no - from Cairns to Brisbane

    Bertram Jacobus: you did not know fitting meditation methods yet zen ? ;-)

    Zen Arado: 1100 miles

    Wol Euler: awww, eden, how sweet

    Wol Euler: btw eden, check your IMs :)

    Eden Haiku: 1100 miles, that is more than the Transiberian is it?

    Zen Arado: very romantic Eden

    Zen Arado: don't know

    Eden Haiku: You launched a great subject Wol. Trains, at night. Wow!

    Bertram Jacobus: whaow - kissing with an italian stranger ? very unusual ! (?) :-)

    Wol Euler smiles

    Zen Arado: I once rode a freight train

    Eden Haiku: A bit cliche, yes, but hey...was very nice!

    Eden Haiku: A freight train? Where to Zen?

    Bertram Jacobus: but ... in reality ... very rare i think ... whaow again ... :-)

    Zen Arado: from Townsville to Brisbane in an open goods carriage

    Zen Arado: Italian romance more interesting :)

    Bertram Jacobus: but tramp romantic also nice ... ;-)

    Wol Euler: :)

    Zen Arado: box car Willie :)

    Bertram Jacobus: lol

    Eden Haiku: Tramp romantci very Kerouac Dharma Buns and all that... ;-)

    Bertram Jacobus: :-)

    Zen Arado: no Zennies around in Australia then though

    Eden Haiku: Why my IM Wol?

    Zen Arado: but Queenslanders very laid back ppl

    Zen Arado: :)

    Wol Euler: because I've been sending you messages that seem not to be arriving :/

    Zen Arado: Oh

    Eden Haiku: Oh...let me see...

    Zen Arado: train ride invites ?

    Zen Arado: :)

    Wol Euler: :)

    Bertram Jacobus: i'm a bit tired . so i leave . have a good time all - and all please ... :-)

    Eden Haiku: I'm really a technotwit with Twitter ;-)

    Zen Arado: nite Bert

    Liza Deischer: bye bert

    Wol Euler: ciao, bert, schlaf gut

    Bertram Jacobus: ty all :-))

    Zen Arado: me too Eden

    Eden Haiku: Bye Bertram. You look so good in this comfy sweater!

    Zen Arado: I rarely use it

    Bertram Jacobus: tyty :-))

    Zen Arado: Hi Cal

    Wol Euler: hello calvino, merry christmas

    Eden Haiku: Hi Calvino

    Liza Deischer: hi Cal

    Calvino Rabeni: Hello all, how's the session?

    Zen Arado: flights of fantasy here tonight Cal

    Zen Arado: exotic train rides with strangers

    Liza Deischer: Im leaving too

    Liza Deischer: see you all next time

    Eden Haiku: Wol brought this topic up ;-)

    Wol Euler: bye liza, take care.

    Zen Arado: bye Liza

    Liza Deischer: bye

    Eden Haiku: Goodnight Liza!

    Zen Arado: nice to use our imaginations too

    Calvino Rabeni: The topic is "exotic train rides with strangers" ??

    Zen Arado: although it was memories

    Zen Arado: chains of associations

    Zen Arado: I love train rides

    Calvino Rabeni: And I also

    Zen Arado: would love to travel across America that way

    Zen Arado: and Canadian Rockies

    Wol Euler nods.

    Calvino Rabeni: I'd like to take the Darjeeling

    Wol Euler: it's the best wy to see the world, I htink.

    Eden Haiku: Have you gone through the Rockies by train Wol?

    Zen Arado: so relaxed

    Calvino Rabeni: It has great advantages

    Wol Euler: in both directions :) but many years ago

    Eden Haiku: The movie Darjeeling was so cool!


    Zen Arado: Indian trains would be very crowded though

    Eden Haiku: I never did. I flew and country-skied at Banff. On a perfect day! Sunny, lots of snow. But no train ride through these mountains, unfortunately.

    Wol Euler: even the tops and outsides of them are!

    Calvino Rabeni: Watching the landscape roll past, out the door of an empty boxcar - romantic :)

    Eden Haiku: Some Indian trains are very luxurious.

    Calvino Rabeni: the hypnotic rhythm ... kachunk kachunk ... kachunk kachunk ...

    Zen Arado: better if you have nice scenery though

    Zen Arado: you can still do that I think Cal

    Calvino Rabeni: Open west, mesas in the distance, cactuses, sage brush

    Wol Euler sighs

    Calvino Rabeni: Canyons, tunnels, bridges, rivers

    Calvino Rabeni: You are carried, able to relax completely, take it all in

    Eden Haiku: My goddaughter from India took a train ride in a mahradjah train with her American Mom. She said it was great but she was so shocked by what she saw through the windows, She was 12 then I think. First time she returned to India afetr seh was adopted as a one yar old baby.

    Zen Arado: I felt so free doing that in Australia

    Calvino Rabeni: Feeling of momentum, moving, but in an eternal present

    Calvino Rabeni: moving but still. the best of both feelings

    Zen Arado: so much poverty

    Eden Haiku: My mother's dream was to go through the Rockies on a train ride. But her health did not permit her at the end. So she never did. ;-)

    Zen Arado: sad

    Wol Euler: you could go for her ...

    Eden Haiku: My parents met in a train. A very romantic story. They were she13 and he 14. Going to college.

    Zen Arado: so many things we never get to do in life

    Wol Euler: awwwww ;)

    Zen Arado: it goes so fast...

    Eden Haiku: It goes so fast yes.

    Zen Arado: very young...

    Eden Haiku: Yes Wol, that would be something nice to do in her memory.

    Wol Euler: train out, fly back :)

    Wol Euler: take a week

    Eden Haiku: He was going to agricultural school, she to the Nun's convent for high school.

    Zen Arado: but few would take the time....

    Zen Arado: want fast travel

    Wol Euler: depends how you see it, a week on a train could be considered cheap accomodation

    Calvino Rabeni: If you can get a sleeper car, it can be a kind of moving retreat

    Zen Arado: yes true..

    Eden Haiku: Yes. Did you enjoy it Wol?

    Wol Euler nods to calvino

    Wol Euler: yes, but you should also definitely get a place in the glass-dome observation car going htrough the mountains

    Eden Haiku: Two different reservations?

    Wol Euler: yes, eden, it was quite wonderful. I've done the middle section, prairies to toronto, several times since then

    Wol Euler: no, you cannot reserve the observation car, you just go along and wait your turn

    Zen Arado: sounds great

    Wol Euler: (at least, that's how it was when I made the trip)

    Calvino Rabeni: I was impressed by the trains in Germany

    Calvino Rabeni: The way they support transferring from one to another

    Calvino Rabeni: Not a feature of American trains

    Wol Euler: mmhmm, and they connect to airports and local transit too

    Eden Haiku: Wow! My English publisher is located in Victoria and he's supposed to invite me there for some readings. He postponed it because of cuts in the cultural funds. But I should consider going West on the train, yes, when the project materializes.

    Wol Euler: very different kind of travel, but of course the distances are not comparable

    Eden Haiku: European trains are so wonderfully practical!

    Wol Euler: it takes about 20 hours to go from toronto around the top of Lake Superior

    Wol Euler: that would get me from home to Moscow!

    Zen Arado: very fast too

    Zen Arado: TGV is very fast

    Wol Euler: eden, great idea! you should suggest that

    Calvino Rabeni: An american poet writing of trains, I wonder how it would seem to a non-native

    Eden Haiku: I will, thanks to you.

    Wol Euler smiles.

    Calvino Rabeni: Most of the world I think knows something about the American West motif

    Wol Euler whistles a Sergio Leone movie theme

    Calvino Rabeni: yes, movies transfer, maybe better than poems

    Zen Arado: what was the film about riding freight trains with Earnest Borgnine?

    Eden Haiku: ;-)


    Calvino Rabeni: I thought the following a gem

    Wol Euler struggles for an Oscar Wilde reference ...

    Calvino Rabeni: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLj1GwMvh8Y - Strannik shared that train poem with me one night

    Calvino Rabeni: Somewhat long youtube performance

    Wol Euler makes a note to view later (poor connection, can't do both at once)

    Eden Haiku: And the one with Johnny Depp who was called William Blake but who wasn't the poet. Black and white by this Finnish director. Dead Man something by Jim Jarmusch yes.

    Wol Euler: yesssssssss

    Wol Euler: music by Neil Young

    Eden Haiku: You loved that movie too Wol?

    Wol Euler: very much so, and the soundtrack too

    Eden Haiku: The ending when he is sent on a boat filled with flowers after his death?

    Wol Euler: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0112817/

    Wol Euler: quite a brilliant film, highly rcommended

    Eden Haiku: Thnaks for the Kerouac link Calvino.

    Zen Arado: yes thanks - will watch later

    Wol Euler: sent out *to* die, as I remember, wasn't he still alive as the boat pushed off?

    Wol Euler: in any case, a very moving scene

    Zen Arado: something so lonely about those train horns out in the West

    Eden Haiku: I'm listening to the video, writing an email and an IM. Feeling a bit scattered ;-) Yes, maybe he was still alive, not sure Wol.

    Wol Euler: :)

    Calvino Rabeni: There are lots of "train songs" also.

    Wol Euler: mmhmm

    Calvino Rabeni: Blues In The Night, for one.

    Zen Arado: 'I hear that lonesome whistle coming down the track'

    Wol Euler sings "the red light was my baby, and the blue light was my mind"

    Calvino Rabeni: The train represents escape from the town of birth to a new mysterious beginning

    Wol Euler: bardo!

    Calvino Rabeni: heh

    Wol Euler: wow, never thought of that before.

    Eden Haiku: Quand J'entends siffler le train...

    Wol Euler: daniel lanois "We don't ride that train no more"

    Calvino Rabeni: Trains often figure into transformation stories as a symbol

    Zen Arado: we forget how important the train was in the opening up America

    Calvino Rabeni: once you get on, you *can't* get off, until it gets to the destination

    Eden Haiku: Read in some esoteric-silly book somewhere (scientology I think) that there are trains on every planet, in all worlds. That is why little boys like to play with minature trains so much.

    Wol Euler snorts

    Eden Haiku: I know...

    Wol Euler: not at all because of the phallic imagery of trains and tunnels, no no no

    Eden Haiku: Ah ah!

    Calvino Rabeni: no, they represent a powerful and inevitable process

    Calvino Rabeni: and connection between people over great distances

    Eden Haiku: The only case you cannot get off a train is to the death camps isn'nt?

    Wol Euler nods. That is my association with riding freight cars, not hobo-ing

    Calvino Rabeni: No, you can't get off between stops, and in the west, those may be far apart

    Zen Arado: perhaps we have a hankering for their unchanging mode of progress?

    Eden Haiku: These images of trains are always on the background...

    arabella Ella: Hiya

    Zen Arado: no decisions to be made en route

    Calvino Rabeni: yes I like that Zen

    Eden Haiku: Hiya Arabella!

    Zen Arado: Hi Ara

    Wol Euler: hello ara

    Calvino Rabeni: Americans don't have the death camp image

    Eden Haiku: no?

    Eden Haiku: I'm suprised.

    Calvino Rabeni: not compared to the other Western images

    Calvino Rabeni: So it is much less a part of the metaphor

    arabella Ella: depends on age and ethnic background i guess?

    Calvino Rabeni: trains represent freedom more than death

    arabella Ella: ah


    Wol Euler nods. That is perhaps a personal association/hobbyhorse of mine

    Calvino Rabeni: The poetic image is, you live in some small town somewhere, and hear the train whistle at night, and imagine, it could take you over your horizon, to a new life somewhere

    Wol Euler: mmhmm

    Zen Arado: yes

    Wol Euler: there are few sounds quite as poignant as a distant train whistle in the dead of inght

    Eden Haiku: Spent the 90 seconds rewinding mental images of death trains in Claude Lanzmann's Shoah.

    Calvino Rabeni: It carries for many miles - it is amazing

    Wol Euler: mmhmm

    Wol Euler: european trains don't whistle :( no level crossings, you see.

    Zen Arado: they have in Britain :)

    Zen Arado: Irish trains are very primitive

    Calvino Rabeni: I have a train figuring literally in a coming-of-age story

    Calvino Rabeni: so I'm affectionate to them

    Zen Arado: oh\/

    Wol Euler: ooooh

    Eden Haiku: Yes?

    Calvino Rabeni: Sorry, big tease

    Calvino Rabeni: OK,

    arabella Ella: oh please say more Calvino you have aroused our curiousity?

    Wol Euler whaps you with a cushion

    Eden Haiku: Ah ah!

    Zen Arado: sounds even better than Edens story :)

    Calvino Rabeni: So young teenagers think they don't matter in the world

    Calvino Rabeni: I was near a freight train as such a young person

    Calvino Rabeni: I found a thing - didn't know what it was, a message of some kind

    Eden Haiku: oh!

    Calvino Rabeni: So I picked it up - took it

    Calvino Rabeni: But then the train pulled out - passed that point, all the way to the caboose

    Calvino Rabeni: and then stopped, because the message was for the man in the end of the train

    Wol Euler: O.O

    Calvino Rabeni: Because it wasn't there, the train had to back up its whole length

    Calvino Rabeni: A mile long - took a long time to do that

    Zen Arado: oh dear!

    Calvino Rabeni: I was very embarassed with myself

    Eden Haiku: !!!

    arabella Ella: :)

    Calvino Rabeni: And realized to be careful about certain things

    Wol Euler nods.

    Calvino Rabeni: And the power of messages in the world, etc.

    Eden Haiku: Did you read the message?

    Calvino Rabeni: It was a list of what train cars go to what destinations

    Wol Euler thinks of messages that go missing: Romeo and Juliet

    arabella Ella: did they actually pick you out and embarass you?

    Eden Haiku: Maybe a secret code for something else? Ovnis maybe? Did the teenager thought something like that?

    Calvino Rabeni: No they did not try to catch the thief.

    arabella Ella: :)

    Eden Haiku: There is a very special scene in Jonathan Franzen's The Corrections that Calvino's story reminds me.

    Calvino Rabeni: I thought - a lesson in patience, from their point of view

    Zen Arado: yes Eden?

    Eden Haiku: He says something like that: You might have a very powerful engine but to get the train go through sorgho fields, you need to have tracks for the train to move along.

    Eden Haiku: It is like our 9 seconds/90 seconds and trying to keep our focus.

    Zen Arado: and making sure we choose the right path?

    Eden Haiku: Is there a right path Zen?

    Zen Arado: for each of us maybe

    arabella Ella: can we ever really know which the right path for each of us is or do we just make educated guesses?

    Zen Arado: but we can have a feeling about it?

    Zen Arado: it feels right?

    arabella Ella: (at least we like to think they are 'educated' guesses rather than merely hunches)

    Wol Euler: my dears, I must return to RL. Family calls. Remember the theme session at 7pm!

    Eden Haiku: I follow the sole of my feet a lot ;-) And the soul of my feet too...

    Wol Euler: bye for now, enjoy your sundays

    arabella Ella: nite Wol

    Zen Arado: bye Wol

    Wol Euler: I've claimed the log, will post it later on

    Eden Haiku: Bye Wol!

    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye wol

    Zen Arado: better go too

    Calvino Rabeni: The train can symbolize destiny. But you know, it might be necessary to stop partway and walk at night across a trackless desert

    Calvino Rabeni: Bye Wol CU

    Wol Euler: this was a great conversation, thank you very much


    Zen Arado: Opens carriage door - sorry :)

    Eden Haiku: Bye Zen!

    arabella Ella: i wonder what images people may have had in mind before trains or planes were used ... boats perhaps ... altho you do not find water everywhere?

    Calvino Rabeni: These are living metaphors - make it possible to say things, an analytical or descriptive language could not

    Eden Haiku: Horses, carriages?

    Calvino Rabeni: If done playfully and with being.

    arabella Ella: or birds perhaps?

    Eden Haiku: Birds Ara?

    arabella Ella: yes birds for me still symbolise freedom

    Calvino Rabeni: Folktales use animals of all kinds for showing a variety of perspectives

    Calvino Rabeni: Free as a bird

    arabella Ella: yes

    Eden Haiku: Ah for freedom yes. And for carrying messages too ;-)

    arabella Ella: it was birds after all that inspired in humans the desire for flying

    Calvino Rabeni: And singing, nesting, associating with their kind, having a mysterious language

    arabella Ella: the famous Icarus story

    Calvino Rabeni: Eden is going to fly now :)

    Eden Haiku: I will fly back to RL, yes . Dinner time here. Goodnight everyone!

    arabella Ella: the fact that we can fly on SL also gives a sense of freedom

    arabella Ella: bye Eden

    Eden Haiku: It does!

    Calvino Rabeni: Bye Eden, fly back to the garden

    arabella Ella: :)

    Calvino Rabeni: Creativity, jazz, education, innovation, naturalizing philosophy, the cult of the genius...

    arabella Ella: interesting stuff definitely

    Calvino Rabeni: Part of the work is to help people re-own their creative sovereignity

    arabella Ella: i will have to do some reading here

    arabella Ella: i am more involved with tools which enable people to come up with ideas ... idea generating methods

    Calvino Rabeni: PaB is a fertile encounter between non-experts

    Calvino Rabeni: I am quite interested in that, Ara


    Calvino Rabeni: Have you ever considered, the proposition that the Pavilion here have a "confidential" mode in which the log can be suspended?

    Calvino Rabeni: I believe it can be stopped and restarted, technically

    Yakuzza Lethecus: good night you both

    arabella Ella: yes it could

    arabella Ella: nite Yaku

    Calvino Rabeni: however the issue is really one of agreement, about whether that would be a proper thing to do

    arabella Ella: well there was one occasion when i had asked for it to be switched off some months back

    arabella Ella: but it would be a good idea to have a 'confidential' mode ... some sort of message that would eliminate any 'confidentail' chat

    Calvino Rabeni: Can you say what for, without revealing the contents?

    arabella Ella: i was discussing a tough personal problem i was trying to deal with

    Calvino Rabeni: OK, that makes sense.

    arabella Ella: and it is amazing the manner in which we build so much trust here amongst outselves

    arabella Ella: and how through that trust we can help each other in incredible ways

    Calvino Rabeni: There are other types of things that seem like they might be subject to discretion

    arabella Ella: yes i guess so

    Calvino Rabeni: "The Norms" for example :)

    Calvino Rabeni: And impressions of individuals of course

    arabella Ella: not sure what you mean there?

    Calvino Rabeni: And shadow topics

    arabella Ella nods

    Calvino Rabeni: All very sensitive

    arabella Ella: yes

    Calvino Rabeni: Norms - I mean, the implicit sense of what one may do here, what is speakable and unspeakable, standards for behavior, all that stuff

    Calvino Rabeni: I am convinced people do nearly all their thinking about that, on a very tacit level

    arabella Ella: perhaps Wol or Storm may read this and look into possibilities of creating a key for confidential stuff which could then be automatically deleted from the log

    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, a kind of marker to create a bracket.

    arabella Ella: yes i see what you mean now

    Calvino Rabeni: (to put it into a pheno term )

    arabella Ella: :)

    arabella Ella: the epoche

    Calvino Rabeni: Observe the power of confidentiality in many professions

    Calvino Rabeni: Lawyers, priests, therapists, healthcare, etc.

    arabella Ella: yes altho we have discussed openness with Pema a few times and he is in favour of PaB being open and recorded

    Calvino Rabeni: It opens new possibilities but requires protection

    Vector Marksman: hi

    arabella Ella: Hiya Vector

    arabella Ella: have you been here before Vector?

    Vector Marksman: yes, once or twice, but I am familiar with kira

    Vector Marksman: I am happy to listen some before I start talking

    arabella Ella: i will give you a notecard with some info ... unless you have that already?

    Calvino Rabeni: You know then, what we chat here is recorded and published on the internet?

    Vector Marksman: no, please do

    Vector Marksman: yes

    arabella Ella: there you are

    arabella Ella: and you do know that all our chat here is recorded and published on the web?

    Vector Marksman: thanks, I am reading it

    arabella Ella: oh ... apologies for repeating what Calvino had already said

    arabella Ella: :)

    Calvino Rabeni: The log can be stopped and restarted.


    Vector Marksman: no problem..did i come in the middle of something?

    arabella Ella: no ... and you are welcome to join us

    arabella Ella: altho we have these 90 sec silence breaks

    Vector Marksman: were you in one?

    arabella Ella: yes :)

    Calvino Rabeni: Ok that was the end of a short pause

    Vector Marksman: sorry

    arabella Ella: it says so every 15 mins here in this chat box ... no worries

    Calvino Rabeni: Although when chatters get excited about something, they ignore it

    arabella Ella: :)

    Vector Marksman: i can imagine that

    Calvino Rabeni: The meeting started at 1pm SLT, you came after most people had left

    Vector Marksman: oh... is it over?

    arabella Ella: i was late too ... i was out tonight and logged on when i got back home

    arabella Ella: its nearly midnight ... gone midnight ... here now

    Calvino Rabeni: Ara, do you have an overall impression of "meta" talk?

    arabella Ella: depends on context ... which context of 'meta' talk do you mean?

    Calvino Rabeni: Maybe, all contexts you are aware of :)

    Calvino Rabeni: There are other dialogue groups in SL also. I like this one quite a bit.

    arabella Ella: well ... i like to reflect on metacognitive thinking

    Calvino Rabeni: Vector, this may be presumptuous, but I get a feeling you are a "straight shooter"

    arabella Ella: perhaps it is similar to what we do here with 'dropping' or 'appreciating'

    Calvino Rabeni: Could be - sometimes it "goes wrong" and sometimes it is really enlightening.

    Vector Marksman: i suppose it i my name:]

    Calvino Rabeni: That must be it.

    arabella Ella: interesting choice

    arabella Ella: of name

    Vector Marksman: only partially a choice

    arabella Ella: yes we are always limited by the second names on offer

    arabella Ella: perhaps we can even tell how patient people are by their choice of names ... the further down in the alphabet the more patient they are

    Vector Marksman: choice - our ability really chose seem like meta cognition o srts

    arabella Ella: that would make Calvino the most patient of us three

    Calvino Rabeni: The selection dialogue can be repeated as many times as you want, but the names are presented at random, from a pool

    Calvino Rabeni: I am extremely patient

    arabella Ella: i can tell

    Calvino Rabeni: A friend of mine thinks I am impatient, with a low threshold for boredom

    Calvino Rabeni: Interesting his view could differ fundamentally

    arabella Ella: but that's different

    arabella Ella: people may be patient or not in different aspects of their lives

    arabella Ella: boredom ... could be one of lifes biggest fears

    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, and they can change their attention while holding constant the circumstances

    arabella Ella: exactly

    Calvino Rabeni: As far as I can tell, the menu of possibilities many people feel confronted by, does not include that option

    Calvino Rabeni: If you will, it is provided by metacognitive thinking.

    arabella Ella: do you mean boredom?

    Calvino Rabeni: For instance, the ability to not be bored, yes.

    Calvino Rabeni: What do you think may be the barriers to metacognitive thinking?

    Calvino Rabeni: As a skill, I mean.

    arabella Ella: but ... what comes to mind is ... intelligent kids in a regular classroom could so easily get bored

    arabella Ella thinks ....

    Calvino Rabeni: What does the bored but intelligent child not know


    arabella Ella: one barrier may be .... too much 'conditioning' in instant gratification with little or no time for reflection?

    Calvino Rabeni: ....

    Calvino Rabeni: that makes sense.

    arabella Ella: the bored but intelligent child ...

    arabella Ella: does not know how to sort out all the thoughts and ideas racing through his or her mind

    arabella Ella: and cant make the mind go 'slow' to keep up with the slow pace of the rest of the kids

    arabella Ella: in the classroom

    Calvino Rabeni: as a skill of attention

    Calvino Rabeni: it would be challenging in that environment

    arabella Ella: how can one be attentive if the material is boring?

    Calvino Rabeni: but kids also claim boredom when home alone

    arabella Ella: if it does not satisfy curiousity or understanding

    Calvino Rabeni: Ah,but there is always something there, some fascinating aspect

    arabella Ella: the insatiable mind

    Calvino Rabeni: available to imagination

    arabella Ella: yes ... to more mature minds perhaps

    Calvino Rabeni: if not repressed, if noticed, if given permission perhaps

    Calvino Rabeni: exactly, there may be something coming with maturity

    arabella Ella: i think so

    Calvino Rabeni: might be called a metacognitive skill

    arabella Ella: yes

    Calvino Rabeni: For instance a phenomenologist might make a distinction

    Calvino Rabeni: and say, if a train passes in the night, we do not hear the sound of the train

    Calvino Rabeni: instead we hear the train.

    arabella Ella: as we grow older we tend to learn to multitask at least mentally in circumstances like a boring classroom or a boring conference or whatever

    arabella Ella: we then dont just hear the train

    arabella Ella: but we may even make up a story about the train and more

    Vector Marksman: amind filled with fear or desire can' t listen or reflect well

    Calvino Rabeni: Right, so a kind of mental doubling makes it possible to hear the train, and to hear the hearing of the train, called the "sound"

    Calvino Rabeni: but it takes multiprocessing

    Calvino Rabeni: and ability to "access" and combine those two

    arabella Ella: i agree with phenomenologists that we dont hear the sound per se but we interpret the sound as that of a train

    Calvino Rabeni: Similarly the metacognition requires awareness OF self, as object

    Calvino Rabeni: as a locus of potential action.

    Calvino Rabeni: It is an added layer of complexity

    arabella Ella: yes together with a strong acknowledgement of the power of reflection

    Calvino Rabeni: In practice, the phenomenologist has to "stop somewhere"

    arabella Ella: yes there are limitations

    Calvino Rabeni: otherwise there is a hall of mirrors to deal with

    arabella Ella: but phenomenology tries to break down those barriers whever possible i guess

    Calvino Rabeni: But the practicing phenomenologist may be stopped by metacognitive limitations

    arabella Ella: yes ... and language is one such limitation IMHO

    arabella Ella: also our culture, upbringing, etc

    Calvino Rabeni: So they say, but it is an open question

    arabella Ella: yes it is

    Calvino Rabeni: Also open, hopefully

    Calvino Rabeni: And subject to pheno reflection

    arabella Ella: altho we try to get to the basis of things ... to try to get ... if it is possible ... beyond language to 'raw' stuff whatever each of us takes that to mean

    Calvino Rabeni: Bottomless, I suspect :)

    arabella Ella: as you said though ... how bottomless can it be?

    Calvino Rabeni: And why would the outside-of-language stuff be considered "raw" - what does that mean, exactly

    arabella Ella: intruiging question

    Calvino Rabeni: Does that imply some assumption about reality....

    Vector Marksman: are we not on the boundary of the u nknown and unknowable?

    arabella Ella: well language involves putting thoughts, emotions, etc into concepts

    Calvino Rabeni: That boundary appears to be there, Vector

    arabella Ella: and there is a whole discussion on whether non conceptual perceptual content could have any significance or not

    Calvino Rabeni: Some people are more "at the edge" than others, maybe?

    arabella Ella: maybe ... but

    arabella Ella: if you reflect on stuff like emotions evoked through music for example ... are they all capturable under the ambit of concepts?

    Calvino Rabeni: RIght, for the professional philosopher, but the argument would have to uncover the presumed nature of "non-conceptual perceptual content"

    Calvino Rabeni: And then it appears to get bogged down a bit...

    Vector Marksman: not for me... i don't have such a good grasp o the language of feelsings

    arabella Ella: not just uncover it ... but also argue ... necessarily using language to communicate ... on whether it is possible to say non conceptual content can exist at all

    arabella Ella: but ... emotions are not always capturable under concepts ... but

    arabella Ella: to be communicated they must be

    arabella Ella: and that raises a paradox


    Calvino Rabeni: What is the assumption there - I think it is, that emotions are not "in themselves" a communication, and that communication can only be said to have properly occurred when the language "captures" the sense and creates a concensual agreement in that mode of thinking.

    arabella Ella: this is really fascinating stuff ... but i'm afraid it is very late here now ... must get some sleep ... thanks for the chat ... hope to continue this chat ... nite all

    Calvino Rabeni: Good night, sleep well Arabella

    arabella Ella: yes exactly ... that's what i meant!

    Vector Marksman: good nite

    arabella Ella: :)

    arabella Ella: nite

    Calvino Rabeni: Vector, thanks for joining - C U again maybe.

    Vector Marksman: good bye

    Calvino Rabeni: Bye

    Vector Marksman: I hope so

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