2009.12.30 01:00 - A divine play

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Bolonath Crystal. The comments are by Bolonath Crystal.

        Bolonath Crystal: namaste cal :)
        Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
        Calvino Rabeni: Bolo
        Bolonath Crystal: how are you?
        Calvino Rabeni: Good overall
        Calvino Rabeni: I am feeling something like a slight wanderlust
        Bolonath Crystal: wow. where to do you like to wander, i wonder?
        Calvino Rabeni: well, where, what and why, with Who ?
        Calvino Rabeni: I took a trip to the PaB time machine
        Calvino Rabeni: By reading the logs
        Calvino Rabeni: and looking at the pictures
        Bolonath Crystal: oic
        Calvino Rabeni: and what I felt is to wander into the past
        Calvino Rabeni: impossible certainly
        Calvino Rabeni: yet one can dream
        Bolonath Crystal: yes :)
        Calvino Rabeni: I have like the seasons this year, the cold and darkness, contentedly; now the dream of spring is stirring just a tiny amount

    the world consists of memories

        Bolonath Crystal: maybe we are wandering more in the past than we know. what else is the world if not a memory?
        Calvino Rabeni: Calvino Rabeni ponders this
        Bolonath Crystal: namaste yak :)
        Yakuzza Lethecus: guten morgen bolo, hey cal
        Calvino Rabeni: konichi wa yaku-san
        Bolonath Crystal: don't ponder too much, cal. just try it. drop memory and see by yourself what remains
        Bolonath Crystal: yak, i set up the hypothesis, that the world consists mainly of memories (to summarize the ongoing discussion)
        Yakuzza Lethecus: at least what we see in the world is in that way
        Yakuzza Lethecus: we´ll never going to see the truth, it will always be biased by our culture and the meta culture we´ll reach but in the end we´ll never going to see the truth as i believe
        Yakuzza Lethecus: but i am not very elaborated on that, thats why i should read more about phenomenologie and phil
        Bolonath Crystal: i made an experiment this morning and tried to drop memory. difficult to put the results into words, but it was somehow surprising
        Bolonath Crystal: namaste zen :)
        Zen Arado: namaste Bolo, Calvino, Yaku
        Bolonath Crystal: a while ago i asked myself what happens to consciousness in deep sleep
        Bolonath Crystal: and the answer was: nothing!
        Zen Arado: dropping mempry is just being mindful?
        Bolonath Crystal: imo in deep sleep we are fully conscious, but we don't remember
        Calvino Rabeni: It would be somewhat hard to tell, wouldn't it
        Bolonath Crystal: dropping memory is more than being mindful. when we are mindful we still compare our perceptions with our experiences. but without memory there are no experiences
        Bolonath Crystal: yes, hard to proof anything about that, cal
        Calvino Rabeni: well some things might help
        Zen Arado: 'without memory there are no experiences' ?
        Calvino Rabeni: zen, have you had an encounter with keisaku stick?
        Zen Arado: don't get that Bolo?
        Zen Arado: only once Cal
        Calvino Rabeni: might be one way to know if sleeping during zazen, or just in no-memory state
        Zen Arado: experience is in the present
        Bolonath Crystal: our perceptions get their meaning by repetition and by comparison with similar perceptions from the past
        Bolonath Crystal: we don't have any kind of experience without memory. everything would be completely new and meaningless
        Zen Arado: hmmm IMO the idea is to just be open to what is and not try to interpret
        Calvino Rabeni: for the log: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keisaku
        Zen Arado: like when I have my shower in the morning ...just be aware of what I am doing
        Zen Arado: and not thinking of what I am going to do today or what I did yesterday
        Zen Arado: ty Cal
        Bolonath Crystal: but you have some idea what happens when you take a shower, zen. without memory you wouldn't even know what a shower is
        Bolonath Crystal: nothing would have existed before this very moment
        Zen Arado: or what to do with the sponge or what to do...
        Zen Arado: hmmmm
        Calvino Rabeni: YW zen.
        Bolonath Crystal: you wouldn't even know that you have been sleeping before, when you stand in the bathroom
        Calvino Rabeni: some say that
        Bolonath Crystal: things exist, because we remember them

    past, present and future only exist in the NOW

        Calvino Rabeni: many phenomenologists seem to think that experience looks 3 ways at once - past, present, future, indivisibly
        Calvino Rabeni: it is a thicker present - compared to whose, I suppose?
        Bolonath Crystal: past is the memory that we have NOW. future is the expectation that we have NOW. and present? isn't it simply the surface between past and future?
        Zen Arado: yes ..everything is still in the NOW
        Bolonath Crystal: but the NOW has no temporal dimension...
        Zen Arado: wondering just waht memory is ....
        Calvino Rabeni: AH, a theory of seductive simplicity :)
        Bolonath Crystal: i love simple theories ;)
        Zen Arado: maybe it is simple...we are jusat complicating it :)
        Calvino Rabeni: I mistrust them
        Bolonath Crystal: somehow i think, truth is simple. maybe because i am not able to grasp something difficult
        Calvino Rabeni: some neurologists say we "remember" the future
        Zen Arado: still haven't worked out how to change titles Cal :(
        Bolonath Crystal: we remember future? how that?
        Calvino Rabeni: Not in terms of physicists time - they mean, what we understand of the future uses the exact same mechanism of mind as how we understand the past
        Zen Arado: memory is patterns in the brain
        Bolonath Crystal: ah, ok
        Zen Arado: we reconstrucy actual experiences they say
        Calvino Rabeni: So, the difference is apparent / conceptual
        Zon Quar: heya
        Bolonath Crystal: namaste zon :)
        Zen Arado: Hi Zon
        Zon Quar: waht r u talking about
        Bolonath Crystal: i agree with this. past and future are temporal projections, like inside and outside are spatial projections
        Zen Arado: memory
        Zon Quar: interesting
        Zon Quar: why do we forget ?
        Zen Arado: there was a theory that our 'self' is composed of memories
        Zen Arado: John Locke
        Zon Quar: yes recording of past expereinces
        Zen Arado: but it doesn't work
        Bolonath Crystal: oh, i must read that some day, zen. you know, i started the discussion by suggesting that the world is composed of memories
        Zon Quar: why not ?
        Zen Arado: because if you had amnesia your self would disappear
        Zon Quar: perhaps therre r 2 selves
        Zen Arado: but they were looking for something essential that persists through our lives

    bigger, smaller and 'true' selves

        Bolonath Crystal: i think, what we call 'self' in this circumstance is not 'true self'
        Zen Arado: and memory doesn't work for that
        Zon Quar: outern personality and a more permanent one...
        Zen Arado: agree Bolo
        Zon Quar: and that outern one is based on memory
        Calvino Rabeni: There are people with impairment of the memory ability
        Zen Arado: my simple view of mindfulness has been confounded now Bolo !
        Calvino Rabeni: which are interesting because they manage their experiences differently
        Zon Quar: memory of how i have been reflected by the society
        Zon Quar: and there is also someone who forgets...and remembers
        Bolonath Crystal: happy to read that, zen *ggg*
        Calvino Rabeni: Some selfs are truer than others, then?
        Zen Arado: if I am in the shower perhaps there are 2 kinds of memory at work
        Zon Quar: i think so Cal
        Zon Quar: more permanent
        Zen Arado: memory of right actions and memory of experiences I had testerday?
        Bolonath Crystal: oops... i wouldn't say that this way, cal. maybe none of them is true
        Calvino Rabeni: Not sure I would like to play favorites
        Zen Arado: there is no self of any description IMO
        Zen Arado: only an illusion
        Zon Quar: some "things" r just more permanet than others
        Calvino Rabeni: Some illusions are truer than others?
        Zon Quar: more permanent
        Bolonath Crystal: 'more permanent'... hm
        Bolonath Crystal: something is permanent - or it is not, i think
        Zen Arado: my aim is to dissolve that illusion of self
        Zon Quar: i htink there is self
        Zen Arado: or let it go
        Zon Quar: it only depends on how we define it
        Zon Quar: self can be one for us all
        Zon Quar: so it is kind of no-self
        Bolonath Crystal nods
        Bolonath Crystal: 'self' is over-personal
        Bolonath Crystal: multividual, so to say
        Zen Arado: something we construct from memories
        Zon Quar: so i thin buddhas no-self and indian atma or self r not opposite
        Zen Arado: of how we reacted to ppl and experiences in the past
        Bolonath Crystal: rather indian brahman, zon, imo
        Zen Arado: it separates us from others
        Zon Quar: wahnt is individual ?
        Zon Quar: it means not to be divided
        Zon Quar: its not separate
        Zon Quar: its undivided
        Zen Arado: having a 'self' I mean
        Zon Quar: so self could be lika that
        Zon Quar: not devided to us
        Zon Quar: the tru self
        Zon Quar: common
        Zon Quar: to us all
        Zen Arado: ah the true self is diferent
        Zon Quar: then we have thses samller selves
        Zen Arado: it is joined to everyone and everything
        Zon Quar: we think t separate
        Zon Quar: are
        Zen Arado: definitions confuse
        Bolonath Crystal: these smaller selves are called 'jiva' in indian philosophy. the jiva is not free, it is a samsaric subject
        Zen Arado: yes 'small self'
        Zon Quar: so we r all a bit scitsofrenic..one self divided into impermanent little selves
        Zon Quar: who think they r all separate
        Calvino Rabeni: yes, it is fun to have lots of selves (playing devils advocate)
        Bolonath Crystal: if the jiva realizes that it is in fact undivided, it becomes a 'jivanmukti', a freed self
        Zen Arado: maybe more interesting :)
        Zon Quar: yes,,its bosing to pay football all alone
        Zon Quar: boring
        Zen Arado: but causes suffering in the end
        Zon Quar: hm depends
        Zon Quar: how u look at it
        Zon Quar: from the point of the little self it is suffering
        Bolonath Crystal: well, also 'devided happiness' in this case would be a kind of suffering. one suffers from illusion
        Zon Quar: but form the point of true self its fun

    lila - the divine play

        Calvino Rabeni: If big self tells the little selves they are playing a game, perhaps they can be happy
        Zon Quar: uhhuh
        Zen Arado: but we can be true self and still be unique and different?
        Zon Quar: but if they r too serious..
        Zon Quar: in the game
        Calvino Rabeni: like "thanks guys" :)
        Zon Quar: they suffer
        Bolonath Crystal: so... life is a 'true self-movie'?
        Calvino Rabeni: Lots of drama, like a good dream
        Zon Quar: devine play..lila
        Calvino Rabeni: Yes
        Zen Arado: would we play games if we realised we are all one ?
        Bolonath Crystal: just to bring some interesting details into a boring eternity ;)
        Zon Quar: yes..its our nature...to play..no goal really..just to create and play for the sake of the play
        Zon Quar: like childreen do
        Zen Arado: but no ego = no interest in winning?
        Zon Quar: yes..no goal
        Zen Arado: no need to prove I am better than you?
        Calvino Rabeni: I would say yes to that question from just before the bell
        Zon Quar: why..u r me
        Calvino Rabeni: Winning is part of the game
        Zon Quar: yes to make it more fun
        Zon Quar: but be a good sport
        Zon Quar: fair play
        Zon Quar: one day win one day loose
        Zen Arado: lot of sport is to prove you are better than others
        Zon Quar: little selves do that
        Zen Arado: bottom line
        Zon Quar: so serious..gola orinted
        Zon Quar: goal
        Zen Arado: in Olympice ppl train for years just to be able to run around a track a fraction of a second faster than others
        Zon Quar: i think life more like a play than a game
        Zen Arado: to show they are the best in the world it seems to me
        Zon Quar: game can become too gola oriented
        Bolonath Crystal: maybe the goal is simply to stop playing
        Zon Quar: no
        Bolonath Crystal: end of game = end of time :)
        Zon Quar: yes in that way
        Zon Quar: and star a new one
        Zen Arado: it is in our nature to play games
        Zon Quar: start
        Zen Arado: homo ludens?
        Zon Quar: lol
        Zon Quar: to do someting for its own sake
        Zon Quar: not as a means
        Zon Quar: to someting else
        Zon Quar: thats playing
        Bolonath Crystal: - afk for a moment -
        Zen Arado: ok but nature of games is to win?
        Zen Arado: take that out and it becomes meaningless
        Zon Quar: not basically
        Pila Mulligan: hi
        Zen Arado: Hi Pila
        Mir Finesmith: I see Pila here
        Pila Mulligan: :)
        Zon Quar: but u need rules to have a play or a game
        Zen Arado: Hi Mir
        Zon Quar: otherwisw its not so fun
        Zen Arado: yes sure
        Zon Quar: but the gola is just a means for a play
        Calvino Rabeni: Hi Pila - I think you know Mir
        Zon Quar: not the other way round
        Pila Mulligan: to have a play, yes
        Zon Quar: hi Pila
        Mir Finesmith: Just dropping in, I really cannot stay long :)
        Zon Quar: so wehn we r our little selves..we play to win
        Zon Quar: when we acrt from our true self we just enjoy the play
        Zen Arado: wel OLympic athletes have to use their little selves then :)
        Zon Quar: lol
        Zen Arado: or they get beaten
        Zen Arado: maybe you are right Zon
        Zen Arado: you win :)
        Bolonath Crystal: <--- back
        Zon Quar: noooo
        Bolonath Crystal: namaste pila :)
        Pila Mulligan: yo brah
        Zen Arado: using my Big self :)
        Zon Quar: im jus joking
        Zen Arado: me too :)
        Zon Quar: not competing
        Zen Arado: ok I won then :)
        Zon Quar: its so fun to talk
        Zon Quar: lol
        Yakuzza Lethecus: bye everyone
        Zon Quar: play with words
        Zen Arado: bye Yaku
        Zon Quar: bye Yaku
        Zen Arado: yes I do it all the time
        Bolonath Crystal: would you agree to understand 'play as being' as 'play as not playing'? or is playing the main nature of being, so it should be understood as 'play as playing'?
        Calvino Rabeni: I think "you seeing being playing as you" (YSBPY)
        Zen Arado: have to define 'playing' maybe
        Calvino Rabeni: define playing as moving freely
        Zen Arado: doing things in a not serious way?
        Bolonath Crystal: creating
        Pila Mulligan: and to paraphrase Bill Clinton, it depends on what the meaning of be might be
        Zen Arado: or what 'is' is :)
        Pila Mulligan: :)
        Pila Mulligan: yep, that was his version
        Calvino Rabeni: It is part of the legacy now
        Pila Mulligan: but he was trying not to get caught playing :)
        Zen Arado: we can get lost in definitions
        Zen Arado: :)
        Calvino Rabeni: the 90's version of something like "plausible deniability" but more fun
        Pila Mulligan: so intent played a part there
        Pila Mulligan: reminds me of the distinciton betweem irony and sarcasm
        Calvino Rabeni: Rumsfeld promoted the "unknown knows" and all that
        Pila Mulligan: sarcasm being irony with the intent to hurt
        Zen Arado: I paint abstracts
        Calvino Rabeni: Unknown knowns, unknown unknowns
        Zen Arado: think it is playing
        Zen Arado: but I still have a serious intent
        Zon Quar: and what is irony then ?
        Pila Mulligan: irony is cool
        Calvino Rabeni: The point being, you're still in the game, even outside known knowns
        Zon Quar: lol
        Zen Arado: :)
        Calvino Rabeni: Like, Rumsfeld, *dude*
        Zon Quar: u r the game
        Calvino Rabeni: Sorry, american ironic humor, NM
        Zen Arado: Zen emphasizes 'not knowing'
        Bolonath Crystal: it might be that 'true self' has serious intents while playing
        Zen Arado: Americans aren't supposed to understand irony:)
        Zon Quar: not odentifying with knowledge perhaps
        Calvino Rabeni: They seem so certain of it, in a way
        Zon Quar: why should he
        Zon Quar: have serious intents
        Zon Quar: what does he need
        Zon Quar: so badly
        Bolonath Crystal: don't know. just said 'it might be'
        Zon Quar: agree tha playing is a bit bad word
        Zon Quar: it sounds so on surface thing
        Zon Quar: but it is deeper
        Zen Arado: but so many words fall apart when we examine them
        Zon Quar: nods
        Calvino Rabeni: There is a poet-philosopher - another Piet,who wrote of these matters
        Calvino Rabeni: THE ETERNAL TWINS

    Taking fun as simply fun
    and earnestness in earnest
    shows how thoroughly thou none
    of the two discernest.

        Zen Arado: how could it be play and also have serious intent?
        Zen Arado: very good Cal
        Zon Quar: like a child
        Zon Quar: he buids a tower
        Zon Quar: an intent
        Zon Quar: is there
        Zon Quar: after finishing
        Zon Quar: he breaks it down
        Zen Arado: a goal
        Zon Quar: to have space
        Pila Mulligan: someone wrote a book a few decades ago based on the Bhagavad Gita titled 'Combat as Play'
        Zon Quar: to build another
        Zon Quar: it goes on and on
        Zen Arado: goal doesn't have to be serious
        Zon Quar: we shuold pretend it yo be
        Zon Quar: otherwise its not fun
        Calvino Rabeni: :)
        Zon Quar: we nned to motivate us
        Zen Arado: need an end product to satisfy our egos?
        Bolonath Crystal: do we?
        Calvino Rabeni: No, need an ego to play the game
        Zon Quar: yes
        Zen Arado: look at what 'I' have achieved
        Calvino Rabeni: Poor ego :)
        Bolonath Crystal: i just imagine true self reading our logs and laughing his butt off *g*
        Calvino Rabeni: Remember, all the world's a stage - hey, isn't that your cue?
        Zen Arado: at our little egos
        Zen Arado: :)
        Pila Mulligan: maybe the phrase 'play of karma' is ironic or a misnomer, but play has a lighter sense than work and implies less attachment, and skillfulness may be more easily found without attaching struggle
        Zen Arado: just enjoy the game
        Zen Arado: if we enjoy doiing it...it is playing?
        Zon Quar: like listening music ?
        Zon Quar: u enjoy it
        Zen Arado: even if it is supposed to be work
        Zon Quar: it goes deep
        Bolonath Crystal: yes, why not? work can be fun
        Zon Quar: u dont listen music to be better than the other
        Zen Arado: don't think of listening to music as play
        Calvino Rabeni: Calvino Rabeni thinks of sex-as-Play
        Zen Arado: too passive
        Zon Quar: ok dance
        Zen Arado: playing an isnstrment ..yes
        Calvino Rabeni: Fun, but not sure when the last time I "won" :)
        Zon Quar: a dancer dancing by himself
        Zon Quar: in tune of music
        Zon Quar: not work
        Zon Quar: enjoynig the moment
        Zon Quar: becoming the dance
        Calvino Rabeni: Drop "work"
        Zon Quar: forgetting his little self
        Zon Quar: only dance is
        Calvino Rabeni: Befriend all your "little selves" :)
        Bolonath Crystal: hm... i have this experience when i play the didgeridoo. it is not 'making' music. it is simply being music
        Bolonath Crystal: no 'me' making something
        Pila Mulligan: a magical instrument
        Zen Arado: so ..difference between playing and playing games?
        Zen Arado: latter brings out ego more
        Zen Arado: sorry I have to go
        Zon Quar: i go and let my little self eat, he is hungry, bye other selves
        Zen Arado: enjoyed discussion
        Bolonath Crystal: bye zen. have a playful new year :)
        Zen Arado: you too !
        Pila Mulligan: bye Zen and Zon
        Bolonath Crystal: om shanti, zon

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