2009.12.30 01:00 - A divine play

The Guardian for this meeting was Bolonath Crystal. The comments are by Bolonath Crystal.

    Bolonath Crystal: namaste cal :)
    Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
    Calvino Rabeni: Bolo
    Bolonath Crystal: how are you?
    Calvino Rabeni: Good overall
    Calvino Rabeni: I am feeling something like a slight wanderlust
    Bolonath Crystal: wow. where to do you like to wander, i wonder?
    Calvino Rabeni: well, where, what and why, with Who ?
    Calvino Rabeni: I took a trip to the PaB time machine
    Calvino Rabeni: By reading the logs
    Calvino Rabeni: and looking at the pictures
    Bolonath Crystal: oic
    Calvino Rabeni: and what I felt is to wander into the past
    Calvino Rabeni: impossible certainly
    Calvino Rabeni: yet one can dream
    Bolonath Crystal: yes :)
    Calvino Rabeni: I have like the seasons this year, the cold and darkness, contentedly; now the dream of spring is stirring just a tiny amount
    --BELL--

the world consists of memories

    Bolonath Crystal: maybe we are wandering more in the past than we know. what else is the world if not a memory?
    Calvino Rabeni: Calvino Rabeni ponders this
    Bolonath Crystal: namaste yak :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: guten morgen bolo, hey cal
    Calvino Rabeni: konichi wa yaku-san
    Bolonath Crystal: don't ponder too much, cal. just try it. drop memory and see by yourself what remains
    Bolonath Crystal: yak, i set up the hypothesis, that the world consists mainly of memories (to summarize the ongoing discussion)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: at least what we see in the world is in that way
    Yakuzza Lethecus: we´ll never going to see the truth, it will always be biased by our culture and the meta culture we´ll reach but in the end we´ll never going to see the truth as i believe
    --BELL--
    Yakuzza Lethecus: but i am not very elaborated on that, thats why i should read more about phenomenologie and phil
    Bolonath Crystal: i made an experiment this morning and tried to drop memory. difficult to put the results into words, but it was somehow surprising
    Bolonath Crystal: namaste zen :)
    Zen Arado: namaste Bolo, Calvino, Yaku
    Bolonath Crystal: a while ago i asked myself what happens to consciousness in deep sleep
    Bolonath Crystal: and the answer was: nothing!
    Zen Arado: dropping mempry is just being mindful?
    Bolonath Crystal: imo in deep sleep we are fully conscious, but we don't remember
    Calvino Rabeni: It would be somewhat hard to tell, wouldn't it
    Bolonath Crystal: dropping memory is more than being mindful. when we are mindful we still compare our perceptions with our experiences. but without memory there are no experiences
    Bolonath Crystal: yes, hard to proof anything about that, cal
    Calvino Rabeni: well some things might help
    Zen Arado: 'without memory there are no experiences' ?
    Calvino Rabeni: zen, have you had an encounter with keisaku stick?
    Zen Arado: don't get that Bolo?
    Zen Arado: only once Cal
    Calvino Rabeni: might be one way to know if sleeping during zazen, or just in no-memory state
    Zen Arado: experience is in the present
    Bolonath Crystal: our perceptions get their meaning by repetition and by comparison with similar perceptions from the past
    Bolonath Crystal: we don't have any kind of experience without memory. everything would be completely new and meaningless
    Zen Arado: hmmm IMO the idea is to just be open to what is and not try to interpret
    Calvino Rabeni: for the log: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keisaku
    Zen Arado: like when I have my shower in the morning ...just be aware of what I am doing
    Zen Arado: and not thinking of what I am going to do today or what I did yesterday
    Zen Arado: ty Cal
    Bolonath Crystal: but you have some idea what happens when you take a shower, zen. without memory you wouldn't even know what a shower is
    Bolonath Crystal: nothing would have existed before this very moment
    Zen Arado: or what to do with the sponge or what to do...
    Zen Arado: hmmmm
    Calvino Rabeni: YW zen.
    Bolonath Crystal: you wouldn't even know that you have been sleeping before, when you stand in the bathroom
    Calvino Rabeni: some say that
    Bolonath Crystal: things exist, because we remember them

past, present and future only exist in the NOW

    Calvino Rabeni: many phenomenologists seem to think that experience looks 3 ways at once - past, present, future, indivisibly
    --BELL--
    Calvino Rabeni: it is a thicker present - compared to whose, I suppose?
    Bolonath Crystal: past is the memory that we have NOW. future is the expectation that we have NOW. and present? isn't it simply the surface between past and future?
    Zen Arado: yes ..everything is still in the NOW
    Bolonath Crystal: but the NOW has no temporal dimension...
    Zen Arado: wondering just waht memory is ....
    Calvino Rabeni: AH, a theory of seductive simplicity :)
    Bolonath Crystal: i love simple theories ;)
    Zen Arado: maybe it is simple...we are jusat complicating it :)
    Calvino Rabeni: I mistrust them
    Bolonath Crystal: somehow i think, truth is simple. maybe because i am not able to grasp something difficult
    Calvino Rabeni: some neurologists say we "remember" the future
    Zen Arado: still haven't worked out how to change titles Cal :(
    Bolonath Crystal: we remember future? how that?
    Calvino Rabeni: Not in terms of physicists time - they mean, what we understand of the future uses the exact same mechanism of mind as how we understand the past
    Zen Arado: memory is patterns in the brain
    Bolonath Crystal: ah, ok
    Zen Arado: we reconstrucy actual experiences they say
    Calvino Rabeni: So, the difference is apparent / conceptual
    Zon Quar: heya
    Bolonath Crystal: namaste zon :)
    Zen Arado: Hi Zon
    Zon Quar: waht r u talking about
    Bolonath Crystal: i agree with this. past and future are temporal projections, like inside and outside are spatial projections
    Zen Arado: memory
    Zon Quar: interesting
    Zon Quar: why do we forget ?
    Zen Arado: there was a theory that our 'self' is composed of memories
    Zen Arado: John Locke
    Zon Quar: yes recording of past expereinces
    Zen Arado: but it doesn't work
    Bolonath Crystal: oh, i must read that some day, zen. you know, i started the discussion by suggesting that the world is composed of memories
    Zon Quar: why not ?
    Zen Arado: because if you had amnesia your self would disappear
    Zon Quar: perhaps therre r 2 selves
    Zen Arado: but they were looking for something essential that persists through our lives

bigger, smaller and 'true' selves

    Bolonath Crystal: i think, what we call 'self' in this circumstance is not 'true self'
    Zen Arado: and memory doesn't work for that
    Zon Quar: outern personality and a more permanent one...
    Zen Arado: agree Bolo
    Zon Quar: and that outern one is based on memory
    Calvino Rabeni: There are people with impairment of the memory ability
    Zen Arado: my simple view of mindfulness has been confounded now Bolo !
    Calvino Rabeni: which are interesting because they manage their experiences differently
    Zon Quar: memory of how i have been reflected by the society
    --BELL--
    Zon Quar: and there is also someone who forgets...and remembers
    Bolonath Crystal: happy to read that, zen *ggg*
    Calvino Rabeni: Some selfs are truer than others, then?
    Zen Arado: if I am in the shower perhaps there are 2 kinds of memory at work
    Zon Quar: i think so Cal
    Zon Quar: more permanent
    Zen Arado: memory of right actions and memory of experiences I had testerday?
    Bolonath Crystal: oops... i wouldn't say that this way, cal. maybe none of them is true
    Calvino Rabeni: Not sure I would like to play favorites
    Zen Arado: there is no self of any description IMO
    Zen Arado: only an illusion
    Zon Quar: some "things" r just more permanet than others
    Calvino Rabeni: Some illusions are truer than others?
    Zon Quar: more permanent
    Bolonath Crystal: 'more permanent'... hm
    Bolonath Crystal: something is permanent - or it is not, i think
    Zen Arado: my aim is to dissolve that illusion of self
    Zon Quar: i htink there is self
    Zen Arado: or let it go
    Zon Quar: it only depends on how we define it
    Zon Quar: self can be one for us all
    Zon Quar: so it is kind of no-self
    Bolonath Crystal nods
    Bolonath Crystal: 'self' is over-personal
    Bolonath Crystal: multividual, so to say
    Zen Arado: something we construct from memories
    Zon Quar: so i thin buddhas no-self and indian atma or self r not opposite
    Zen Arado: of how we reacted to ppl and experiences in the past
    Bolonath Crystal: rather indian brahman, zon, imo
    Zen Arado: it separates us from others
    Zon Quar: wahnt is individual ?
    Zon Quar: it means not to be divided
    Zon Quar: its not separate
    Zon Quar: its undivided
    Zen Arado: having a 'self' I mean
    Zon Quar: so self could be lika that
    Zon Quar: not devided to us
    Zon Quar: the tru self
    Zon Quar: common
    Zon Quar: to us all
    Zen Arado: ah the true self is diferent
    Zon Quar: then we have thses samller selves
    Zen Arado: it is joined to everyone and everything
    Zon Quar: we think t separate
    Zon Quar: are
    Zen Arado: definitions confuse
    Bolonath Crystal: these smaller selves are called 'jiva' in indian philosophy. the jiva is not free, it is a samsaric subject
    Zen Arado: yes 'small self'
    Zon Quar: so we r all a bit scitsofrenic..one self divided into impermanent little selves
    Zon Quar: who think they r all separate
    Calvino Rabeni: yes, it is fun to have lots of selves (playing devils advocate)
    Bolonath Crystal: if the jiva realizes that it is in fact undivided, it becomes a 'jivanmukti', a freed self
    Zen Arado: maybe more interesting :)
    Zon Quar: yes,,its bosing to pay football all alone
    Zon Quar: boring
    Zen Arado: but causes suffering in the end
    Zon Quar: hm depends
    Zon Quar: how u look at it
    Zon Quar: from the point of the little self it is suffering
    Bolonath Crystal: well, also 'devided happiness' in this case would be a kind of suffering. one suffers from illusion
    Zon Quar: but form the point of true self its fun

lila - the divine play

    Calvino Rabeni: If big self tells the little selves they are playing a game, perhaps they can be happy
    Zon Quar: uhhuh
    Zen Arado: but we can be true self and still be unique and different?
    Zon Quar: but if they r too serious..
    Zon Quar: in the game
    Calvino Rabeni: like "thanks guys" :)
    Zon Quar: they suffer
    Bolonath Crystal: so... life is a 'true self-movie'?
    Calvino Rabeni: Lots of drama, like a good dream
    Zon Quar: devine play..lila
    --BELL--
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Zen Arado: would we play games if we realised we are all one ?
    Bolonath Crystal: just to bring some interesting details into a boring eternity ;)
    Zon Quar: yes..its our nature...to play..no goal really..just to create and play for the sake of the play
    Zon Quar: like childreen do
    Zen Arado: but no ego = no interest in winning?
    Zon Quar: yes..no goal
    Zen Arado: no need to prove I am better than you?
    Calvino Rabeni: I would say yes to that question from just before the bell
    Zon Quar: why..u r me
    Calvino Rabeni: Winning is part of the game
    Zon Quar: yes to make it more fun
    Zon Quar: but be a good sport
    Zon Quar: fair play
    Zon Quar: one day win one day loose
    Zen Arado: lot of sport is to prove you are better than others
    Zon Quar: little selves do that
    Zen Arado: bottom line
    Zon Quar: so serious..gola orinted
    Zon Quar: goal
    Zen Arado: in Olympice ppl train for years just to be able to run around a track a fraction of a second faster than others
    Zon Quar: i think life more like a play than a game
    Zen Arado: to show they are the best in the world it seems to me
    Zon Quar: game can become too gola oriented
    Bolonath Crystal: maybe the goal is simply to stop playing
    Zon Quar: no
    Bolonath Crystal: end of game = end of time :)
    Zon Quar: yes in that way
    Zon Quar: and star a new one
    Zen Arado: it is in our nature to play games
    Zon Quar: start
    Zen Arado: homo ludens?
    Zon Quar: lol
    Zon Quar: to do someting for its own sake
    Zon Quar: not as a means
    Zon Quar: to someting else
    Zon Quar: thats playing
    Bolonath Crystal: - afk for a moment -
    Zen Arado: ok but nature of games is to win?
    Zen Arado: take that out and it becomes meaningless
    Zon Quar: not basically
    Pila Mulligan: hi
    Zen Arado: Hi Pila
    Mir Finesmith: I see Pila here
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Zon Quar: but u need rules to have a play or a game
    Zen Arado: Hi Mir
    Zon Quar: otherwisw its not so fun
    Zen Arado: yes sure
    Zon Quar: but the gola is just a means for a play
    Calvino Rabeni: Hi Pila - I think you know Mir
    Zon Quar: not the other way round
    Pila Mulligan: to have a play, yes
    Zon Quar: hi Pila
    Mir Finesmith: Just dropping in, I really cannot stay long :)
    Zon Quar: so wehn we r our little selves..we play to win
    Zon Quar: when we acrt from our true self we just enjoy the play
    Zen Arado: wel OLympic athletes have to use their little selves then :)
    Zon Quar: lol
    Zen Arado: or they get beaten
    Zen Arado: maybe you are right Zon
    Zen Arado: you win :)
    Bolonath Crystal: <--- back
    Zon Quar: noooo
    Bolonath Crystal: namaste pila :)
    Pila Mulligan: yo brah
    Zen Arado: using my Big self :)
    Zon Quar: im jus joking
    Zen Arado: me too :)
    Zon Quar: not competing
    Zen Arado: ok I won then :)
    Zon Quar: its so fun to talk
    Zon Quar: lol
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye everyone
    Zon Quar: play with words
    Zen Arado: bye Yaku
    Zon Quar: bye Yaku
    Zen Arado: yes I do it all the time
    --BELL--
    Bolonath Crystal: would you agree to understand 'play as being' as 'play as not playing'? or is playing the main nature of being, so it should be understood as 'play as playing'?
    Calvino Rabeni: I think "you seeing being playing as you" (YSBPY)
    Zen Arado: have to define 'playing' maybe
    Calvino Rabeni: define playing as moving freely
    Zen Arado: doing things in a not serious way?
    Bolonath Crystal: creating
    Pila Mulligan: and to paraphrase Bill Clinton, it depends on what the meaning of be might be
    Zen Arado: or what 'is' is :)
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: yep, that was his version
    Calvino Rabeni: It is part of the legacy now
    Pila Mulligan: but he was trying not to get caught playing :)
    Zen Arado: we can get lost in definitions
    Zen Arado: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: the 90's version of something like "plausible deniability" but more fun
    Pila Mulligan: so intent played a part there
    Pila Mulligan: reminds me of the distinciton betweem irony and sarcasm
    Calvino Rabeni: Rumsfeld promoted the "unknown knows" and all that
    Pila Mulligan: sarcasm being irony with the intent to hurt
    Zen Arado: I paint abstracts
    Calvino Rabeni: Unknown knowns, unknown unknowns
    Zen Arado: think it is playing
    Zen Arado: but I still have a serious intent
    Zon Quar: and what is irony then ?
    Pila Mulligan: irony is cool
    Calvino Rabeni: The point being, you're still in the game, even outside known knowns
    Zon Quar: lol
    Zen Arado: :)
    Calvino Rabeni: Like, Rumsfeld, *dude*
    Zon Quar: u r the game
    Calvino Rabeni: Sorry, american ironic humor, NM
    Zen Arado: Zen emphasizes 'not knowing'
    Bolonath Crystal: it might be that 'true self' has serious intents while playing
    Zen Arado: Americans aren't supposed to understand irony:)
    Zon Quar: not odentifying with knowledge perhaps
    Calvino Rabeni: They seem so certain of it, in a way
    Zon Quar: why should he
    Zon Quar: have serious intents
    Zon Quar: what does he need
    Zon Quar: so badly
    Bolonath Crystal: don't know. just said 'it might be'
    Zon Quar: agree tha playing is a bit bad word
    Zon Quar: it sounds so on surface thing
    Zon Quar: but it is deeper
    Zen Arado: but so many words fall apart when we examine them
    Zon Quar: nods
    Calvino Rabeni: There is a poet-philosopher - another Piet,who wrote of these matters
    Calvino Rabeni: THE ETERNAL TWINS

Taking fun as simply fun
and earnestness in earnest
shows how thoroughly thou none
of the two discernest.

    Zen Arado: how could it be play and also have serious intent?
    Zen Arado: very good Cal
    Zon Quar: like a child
    Zon Quar: he buids a tower
    Zon Quar: an intent
    Zon Quar: is there
    Zon Quar: after finishing
    Zon Quar: he breaks it down
    Zen Arado: a goal
    Zon Quar: to have space
    Pila Mulligan: someone wrote a book a few decades ago based on the Bhagavad Gita titled 'Combat as Play'
    Zon Quar: to build another
    Zon Quar: it goes on and on
    Zen Arado: goal doesn't have to be serious
    Zon Quar: we shuold pretend it yo be
    Zon Quar: otherwise its not fun
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Zon Quar: we nned to motivate us
    Zen Arado: need an end product to satisfy our egos?
    Bolonath Crystal: do we?
    Calvino Rabeni: No, need an ego to play the game
    Zon Quar: yes
    Zen Arado: look at what 'I' have achieved
    Calvino Rabeni: Poor ego :)
    --BELL--
    Bolonath Crystal: i just imagine true self reading our logs and laughing his butt off *g*
    Calvino Rabeni: Remember, all the world's a stage - hey, isn't that your cue?
    Zen Arado: at our little egos
    Zen Arado: :)
    Pila Mulligan: maybe the phrase 'play of karma' is ironic or a misnomer, but play has a lighter sense than work and implies less attachment, and skillfulness may be more easily found without attaching struggle
    Zen Arado: just enjoy the game
    Zen Arado: if we enjoy doiing it...it is playing?
    Zon Quar: like listening music ?
    Zon Quar: u enjoy it
    Zen Arado: even if it is supposed to be work
    Zon Quar: it goes deep
    Bolonath Crystal: yes, why not? work can be fun
    Zon Quar: u dont listen music to be better than the other
    Zen Arado: don't think of listening to music as play
    Calvino Rabeni: Calvino Rabeni thinks of sex-as-Play
    Zen Arado: too passive
    Zon Quar: ok dance
    Zen Arado: playing an isnstrment ..yes
    Calvino Rabeni: Fun, but not sure when the last time I "won" :)
    Zon Quar: a dancer dancing by himself
    Zon Quar: in tune of music
    Zon Quar: not work
    Zon Quar: enjoynig the moment
    Zon Quar: becoming the dance
    Calvino Rabeni: Drop "work"
    Zon Quar: forgetting his little self
    Zon Quar: only dance is
    Calvino Rabeni: Befriend all your "little selves" :)
    Bolonath Crystal: hm... i have this experience when i play the didgeridoo. it is not 'making' music. it is simply being music
    Bolonath Crystal: no 'me' making something
    Pila Mulligan: a magical instrument
    Zen Arado: so ..difference between playing and playing games?
    Zen Arado: latter brings out ego more
    Zen Arado: sorry I have to go
    Zon Quar: i go and let my little self eat, he is hungry, bye other selves
    Zen Arado: enjoyed discussion
    Bolonath Crystal: bye zen. have a playful new year :)
    Zen Arado: you too !
    Pila Mulligan: bye Zen and Zon
    Bolonath Crystal: om shanti, zon