2010.01.01 01:00 - Like a Submarine

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Pema Pera, standing in for Wol Euler. The comments are by Pema Pera.

    Strannik Zipper: Pema!
    Strannik Zipper: Happy New Year!
    Pema Pera: Hi there, and happy new year to you too!
    Strannik Zipper: Greetings Calvino
    Pema Pera: what has been your impression of PaB so far, Strannik? Have you been playing a bit with the 9-sec breaks yourself?
    Pema Pera: hi Calvino!
    Strannik Zipper: Yes - not enough, although I do meditation
    Calvino Rabeni: Greetings Strannik and Pema, happy new year !
    Strannik Zipper: I have a desktop app the encourages me - so ironically, I'm better near the computer
    Pema Pera: it's not necessary to do it around the clock -- even a few hours a day makes a lot of difference, I feel
    Pema Pera: so there is no "enough" in a sense :)
    Strannik Zipper: yes - it builds
    Pema Pera: in fact, you can say that doing it just once is interesting
    Pema Pera: but yes, doing it more regularly tends to change and deepen what you find
    Pema Pera: what have you found so far, if I may ask?
    Pema Pera: Hi Bert!
    Bertram Jacobus: hey all and a happy new year ... :-)
    Pema Pera: Happy New Year to all of you!
    Strannik Zipper: Greetings Jacobus - Happy new Year
    Pema Pera: (it's evening here already, in Japan)
    Strannik Zipper: Its only 1 hour past the new year here in SL Time Zone land
    Calvino Rabeni: I am there also, the year is fresh
    Strannik Zipper: fresh year, fresh decade, blue moon - vibrant new possibilities
    Bertram Jacobus: here it´s 10 am (germany) ... :-)
    Pema Pera: Sorry Strannik, may I ask what you have found so far, in doing the 9-sec practice?
    Pema Pera: (in case my question got lost in the greetings)
    I was hoping that I was not too pushy, but then again, I like being persistent, hopefully gently so, and indeed, in this case Strannik shared with us a number of interesting aspects of his own explorations, one of which gave rise to the title of the session.
    Strannik Zipper: I think it provides a constant - a re-centering. Sometimes it is a welcome fresh breeze, other times it is an annoyance that pulls me out of a favorite distraction
    Pema Pera: hahaha, yes, I know
    Pema Pera: it can be quite annoying . . . .
    Pema Pera: whenever we are annoyed about something, I also have a new opportunity to learn, though we might now be willing to see it as such :)
    Strannik Zipper: It will help me with one of my new years heuristics (I like heuristics rather than resolutions) - to like a submarine, dwell more in the depths, and be less fascinated by surface waves
    Strannik Zipper: er depths
    Pema Pera: interesting idea!
    Pema Pera: How do you plan to "stay under" longer?
    Pema Pera: any particular strategy, other than the 9 sec breaks?
    Pema Pera: or is that perhaps enough?
    Strannik Zipper: My daily meditation helps, the 9 secs helps, but also to spend more time simply being present in whatever it is I am doing - not separating from basic attention
    Strannik Zipper: I can take fantastic thought journeys or get really involved with research and such - get lost in it
    Strannik Zipper: by keeping a small part of awareness uninvolved, I don't just drown in the process
    Strannik Zipper: sometimes it is enough to keep awareness of sensations in a hand for food to do his
    Strannik Zipper: er foot
    Pema Pera: Hi Zon!
    Bertram Jacobus: hello zon - happy new year ! ... :-)
    Zon Quar: heya..same to all u too
    Strannik Zipper: Of course any effort of direct experience is beneficial to us Western stuck-in-the-head types
    Pema Pera: yes :)
    Pema Pera: and there are so many ways
    Pema Pera: the simplest instruction for the 9 sec break is "drop what you're doing" -- assuming that you're probably in the middle of a long distraction; but an alternative is "go really into the heart of what you're doing" !
    Calvino Rabeni: I did my first of the decade "Tweet" / resolution / heuristic
    Pema Pera: decade!
    Pema Pera: wow
    Pema Pera realizes he forgot to do a millenium resolution, ten years ago . . ..
    Calvino Rabeni: "New Years meditation - a series of 9-second explosions / no sirens - sounds like good, modest fun."
    Strannik Zipper: 10 years ago I was on call to watch for Y2K bugs - My resolution was to survive if the world fell apart ;[-)
    I couldn't help but think of different sirens.
    Pema Pera: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/siren
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: Sirens of police variety or the mythological, then.
    Calvino Rabeni: Muses are acceptable.
    Pema Pera: (^_^)
    Strannik Zipper: I liked the sirens in "O Brother Where Art Thou"
    Calvino Rabeni: Someone was asking me - did it do any good to get all excited about Y2K?
    Calvino Rabeni: I said "yes"
    Calvino Rabeni: Even if nothing exciting happened
    Strannik Zipper: It was overhyped, but the result was that a lot of important oftware got fixed in time
    Pema Pera: good point!
    Pema Pera: and also more awareness of writing things for the future
    Pema Pera: a kind of coding mindfullness
    Yakuzza Lethecus: happy new year
    Calvino Rabeni: And recognition of the way technology affects our lives
    Bertram Jacobus: helllo yakuzza ! :-) - happy new year ! :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: and a banding together in community, for some groups
    Strannik Zipper: I decided that I did not want to deal with any bugs, so I hid in a monastery - ironically, they had a novell server with a bug - the only one I had to dealt with!
    Pema Pera: hi Yakuzza!
    Zon Quar: Yaku hi
    Calvino Rabeni: Strannik, if you are an older Tech type, you probably remember the early internet mailing list - "Risks"
    Bertram Jacobus: which kind of monastery was that strannik please ? (!) :-)
    Strannik Zipper: vaguely - I wasn't on it
    Calvino Rabeni: It was replete with "just caught in time" software bug horror stories
    Calvino Rabeni: Kind of - around the campfire ghost stories for tech types
    Calvino Rabeni: Most nipped in the bud
    Strannik Zipper: Orthodox - desert wilderness, except for one building with an IT infrastructure
    Qt Core: Hi all
    Strannik Zipper: Hi QT
    Pema Pera: Hi Qt!
    Zon Quar: ho Qt
    Bertram Jacobus: orthodox christian strannik ? and in which country - if i may ask ? ...
    Strannik Zipper: Northern California
    Bertram Jacobus: hello qt - happy new year ! ... :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: Northern California is a separate country :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: happy new year qt :)
    Bertram Jacobus: hehe. and - christian or buddhistic ?
    Strannik Zipper: The Monastery came from Russian Tradition originally, but it got taken over by hippies ;-)
    An alternative title for this session could have been "from Y2K to Russian Orthodox monasteries to hippies in San Francisco" but that seemed a wee bit long.
    Qt Core: ty bert and happy new year to everyone!
    Bertram Jacobus: oh i see
    Bertram Jacobus: interesting !
    Strannik Zipper: Christian, but with a Buddhist feel a lot of the time
    Bertram Jacobus: ups - hippies !? lol
    Strannik Zipper: Its a loooong story ;-)
    Bertram Jacobus: they are still existing ? nice ! ... :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, if you live in the town of Mt Shasta, you can get around by flying saucer
    Strannik Zipper: I used to live in the Ken Kesey & Merry Prankster house - where most of the acid passed out in the 60s was made in my kitchen
    Bertram Jacobus: one advantage i came to learn in the net talks is, that loooong stories in the end can be told nevertheless in only a few sentences (!) ... :-))
    Bertram Jacobus: lol cal
    Strannik Zipper: If I appear spacey, I blame trace elements that fell out of the wall onto my coooking
    Calvino Rabeni: Where is that house, Stran?
    Strannik Zipper: San Francisco, Steiner St.
    Bertram Jacobus: (but i did not want to cut nice stories by my remark !) ... :-)
    Strannik Zipper: I'm an Irishman - it is hard for me to tell short stories
    Bertram Jacobus: hehe :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, Bert, the counterculture lives!
    Bertram Jacobus: still (and always?) existing underground ... not only nostalgia ? ... :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: Quite
    Strannik Zipper: there is always someone making a new mold, and always someone breaking them ;-)
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm not sure about European coutries, but my impression is USA is a good percentage culturally esoteric
    Bertram Jacobus: in europe it´s grwoing i think
    Bertram Jacobus: growing*
    Strannik Zipper: Things change so fast everywhere I wouldn't want to even try to generalize
    Bertram Jacobus: ("age of aquarius") ? ...
    Strannik Zipper: I've been New Years Eve party hopping from time zone to time zone and country to country here - its amazing how small the world is now
    Indeed, and the SL time zone of California is one of the later ones to celebrate the new year: this session was the first one in 2010 in SL time.
    Bertram Jacobus: but aren´t generalizing AND differing means to find insights of the world ? ...
    Calvino Rabeni: I think of that aspect of culture a little by analogy with "junk DNA"
    Strannik Zipper: yes! true!
    Calvino Rabeni: It is not as inactive as previously thought
    Calvino Rabeni: It is just - implicitly active - hard to characterize by production of proteins, but regulatory
    Strannik Zipper: different perspectives may arise simultaneously
    Calvino Rabeni: In general, all concepts are generalizations / stereotypes
    Calvino Rabeni: Nothing to be too bashful about
    Calvino Rabeni: It is the way they Play that counts
    Strannik Zipper: To be sure, there are different recognizable characteristics of different people-groupss/countries
    Bertram Jacobus: but (refering to "always someone is making...") : i very often think about whether we are with or without power to do anything by ourselfes in the end - the question of allmightyness versus powerlessness ... does anybody has ideas about this quesion or even answers ?
    Bertram Jacobus: question*
    Strannik Zipper: one can find tremendous common ground between different cultures but also find a totally foreign country in the person next door
    Bertram Jacobus: agree - always see common AND dividing aspects everywhere
    Strannik Zipper: Bertram: power to do what?
    Bertram Jacobus: to do anything . i mean : are we lived or do we live ?
    Calvino Rabeni: Both / and
    Strannik Zipper: what would it mean that we live?
    Zon Quar: world is made of problems and there is no end to them...you only have to know what ur own work is ..and do it
    Strannik Zipper: what is a problem?
    Zon Quar: a challenge
    Bertram Jacobus: to me , it could be called "the end of suffering" ( = to live) , (one way to express it) strannik ...
    Zon Quar: a question in front of u
    Strannik Zipper: Zon - did you decide the question was there because it is interesting, or is it inevitable?
    Zon Quar: i think we face everyday problems
    Zon Quar: it s programmed
    Strannik Zipper: What makes them problems?
    Zon Quar: our mind
    Strannik Zipper: our mind makes the problems?
    Zon Quar: yes
    Bertram Jacobus: i think, the body makes it
    Zon Quar: body is quite straigth forward to me
    Strannik Zipper: Bertram - that would certainly seem true concerning breakfast
    Bertram Jacobus: for example : when tibetan nuns are tortured - i feel, that is a problem or would even more be a problem when i was in such a heavy situation ...
    Bertram Jacobus: hehe. nice strannik :o)
    Zon Quar: can u do sometihng about it Bert
    Strannik Zipper: If the mind makes the problems, what are the when the mind doesn't do that?
    Bertram Jacobus: that was my question in the beginning of this topic zon : i don´t know ! and not yet sadly
    Zon Quar: mind always makes problems..it is its nature
    Calvino Rabeni: Can you get rid of it, Zon?
    Zon Quar: not really
    Calvino Rabeni: I think I lost mine.
    Strannik Zipper: I met a man who was tortured in Romanian concentration camps on and off for 20 years - he didn't always see it as a problem, sometimes it was an opportunity!
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i got to go, i just wanted to wish a happy new year to the ppl whom are here :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye
    Bertram Jacobus: bye yaku have a good time
    Calvino Rabeni: happy new year, yaku-san!
    Strannik Zipper: Bye Yaku - happy new year!
    Zon Quar: bye Yaku
    Pema Pera: bye Yakuzza!
    Bertram Jacobus: cal - what did you loose please ? (didn´t get it)
    Calvino Rabeni: My mind :)
    Zon Quar: lol
    Strannik Zipper: its with the missing socks
    Zon Quar: the u dont have any problems
    Bertram Jacobus: not my impression cal ... ;-)
    Calvino Rabeni: No, I don't *have* - but now i *am* - it went to a being level, unfortunately
    Strannik Zipper: when does a problem arise as a problem, and when does it arise as soemthing else?
    Calvino Rabeni: The problems, I meant
    Zon Quar: a problem is a problem...u mind makes up a question to have an answer,,thats how it exists
    Calvino Rabeni: I have a collection of the missing socks - perhaps they match yours Strannik?
    At this point, after the first hour, I got up, ready to leave. Later I would see that the session would continue for another one and a half hour, or two and a half in total!
    Pema Pera: good seeing you all!
    Calvino Rabeni: LIkewise, Pema.
    Bertram Jacobus: nice question strannik ! and cal : what about the being level is "unfortunately" please ? :-)
    Qt Core: bye Pema
    Strannik Zipper: Cheers Pema - Happy New Year
    Pema Pera: till next time
    Zon Quar: bye Pema
    Pema Pera: thanks!
    Bertram Jacobus: bye pema - nice time ! :-)
    Strannik Zipper: I'm sure the socks match
    Zon Quar: if u want to be efficient try to choose those problems u can solve..lol
    Calvino Rabeni: No other reasonable explanation is possible
    Calvino Rabeni: about the socks
    Calvino Rabeni: If you want to be really efficient, choose those problems someone else is already solving :)
    Bertram Jacobus: nice remark zon ! ... ty ...
    Strannik Zipper: Zon sure, but I'm thinking, before we identify our problems, can we see them before identification as such as more than just problems?
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm joking a bit, but also mean it
    Strannik Zipper: can we give them a chance to arise as something else?
    Zon Quar: hm..what do u mean by more than just a problem Strannik ?
    Strannik Zipper: when we see that we have a problem, we identify something as "our problem"...and then we go around just solving our problems (or failing to)
    Zon Quar: yes..
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, and part of it, is people think, the world is not intelligent, so they take more responsibility on themselves as a result
    Strannik Zipper: is it possible to see these things before identifying them as problems, and see how else they present themselves, ?
    Calvino Rabeni: If you conceive of the world as unruly and problematical, then "who is going to fix it" tends to be answered "me"
    Zon Quar: whne they start to emerge..
    Zon Quar: yes i think so..
    Strannik Zipper: what if it isn't really a problem?
    Calvino Rabeni: If the world is intelligent, it is already handling itself, and might need a little help
    Zon Quar: nods
    Zon Quar: then u give out ur contribution
    Strannik Zipper: another thing is perhaps seeing a problem as an irritation - something we have to get off our plate so that we can get back to our life
    Bertram Jacobus: i don´t think that the universe needs a little help - but we or i do , sometimes , i must admit ...
    Qt Core: have to go, too complex discussion for someone too sleepy :-)
    Zon Quar: universe is acting..we also must act...
    Strannik Zipper: cheers QT
    Calvino Rabeni: That sounds to me like separating oneself from the universe and taking the role of being damaged (in need of fixing)
    Bertram Jacobus: the have a nice nite qt ! :-)
    Qt Core: bye all and have fun... all year
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye Qt, have a good year, see you later
    Zon Quar: bye Qt
    Bertram Jacobus: no cal. i did not mean it like that. it was "only" regarding to "pian" ...
    Calvino Rabeni: OK
    Bertram Jacobus: Pain*
    Strannik Zipper: The idea of a problem that must be solved before we get back to our life, is that we almost never do
    Calvino Rabeni: The idea of a problem - is problematical
    Strannik Zipper: hahaha - yeah
    Zon Quar: i think the word problem is from latin and means an open question in front of us
    Strannik Zipper: I think I like open question much better
    Calvino Rabeni: But just on a psychological level, most people feel "broken" I believe.
    Bertram Jacobus: but what, if we change the word problem and say pain instead of it ?
    Calvino Rabeni: It is an idea that loses their power
    Zon Quar: a problem that can be solved is not necessary painful
    Calvino Rabeni: Chronic pain as a literal example - how do people deal with it?
    Zon Quar: u feel good by solving it
    Calvino Rabeni: I see that
    Strannik Zipper: for example - I play solitaire - I create a problem for myself which I then solve because its fun
    Bertram Jacobus: yes cal. ty. that meets what i mean
    Zon Quar: only if u make a problem u cant soolve causes pain
    Zon Quar: then u might ask
    Zon Quar: is this really a problem
    Strannik Zipper: very different from trying to fix broknness that is always clammoring for my attention
    Zon Quar: fro me to solve
    Bertram Jacobus: i mean also : i don´t want to focus only that part of life - not at all ! but i serach for methods - exactly how you write : how to deal with it
    Zon Quar: i ask..is this a problem i should solve...if it is...i concentrate on it..and usually a slolution emerges
    Calvino Rabeni: Some things yield - some things don't - some you can't tell if they will
    Bertram Jacobus: but zon : as cal wrote : chronicle pain - how to deal with that ?
    Zon Quar: physical ?
    Calvino Rabeni: Some perspectives can make it bearable
    Zon Quar: mental ?
    Bertram Jacobus: both. i don´t make a difference (on one hand)
    Calvino Rabeni: Either
    Strannik Zipper: Perhaps some problems are made worse by resisting them
    Bertram Jacobus: (or in this context)
    Bertram Jacobus: nice ideas and hints here ... ty all ...
    Zon Quar: differebt solutions for physical and mental pain can be envisaged..so they r a bit different to me
    Calvino Rabeni: Many approaches - there is not a simple trick
    Calvino Rabeni: I feel we often "add to" the problem, by attitude
    Bertram Jacobus: enough to work with - so i will take a break and leave ... have a great time until next time ! ;-)
    Strannik Zipper: Perhaps some problems loom larger because I particularly identify with them
    Calvino Rabeni: perhaps that is what Stan meant by resisting
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Zon Quar: nods
    Strannik Zipper: Cheers Bertram
    Bertram Jacobus: :-)
    Calvino Rabeni: Bye then Bert :)
    Bertram Jacobus: :-)
    Zon Quar: buddha said 2 fold pain...1 the physical pain..2 teh thinking of it
    Zon Quar: bye Bert
    Zon Quar: or resisting
    Calvino Rabeni: yes, the second part seems to be something that can be dropped
    Calvino Rabeni: Add-on's
    Strannik Zipper: If I see something that needs to be done, and I do it with out much thought, it isn't much of a problem - just a part of life
    Calvino Rabeni: But really,a lot of emotions are like that too
    Strannik Zipper: where as some problems I realy don't want to have, and I am identified with some other state other than the problem state I am actually in
    Zon Quar: yes Strannik..i htink thats the way we should act
    Calvino Rabeni: A *lot* gets wrapped around a small core reality
    Zon Quar: see and act
    Calvino Rabeni: I good point,there are situations one ignores
    Calvino Rabeni: as well as situations one over-focuses
    Calvino Rabeni: And they are related
    Strannik Zipper: Calvino - yes
    Calvino Rabeni: the over-focus is often a sign of the shadow issue
    Strannik Zipper: and others that my not-wanting is the problem and not the problem itself
    Strannik Zipper: or wanting
    Calvino Rabeni: As in the Nasrudin story of looking for the lost item outside, because the light is better
    Strannik Zipper: I love that story!
    Calvino Rabeni: Gold ring, I think it was, and it fell to the basement
    Zon Quar: yes..lol
    Calvino Rabeni: but he didn't want to go down there - too damp, dark
    Calvino Rabeni: So he looked out in the nice sunshine
    Strannik Zipper: If I am sick, and I am determined not to be sick, my determination is going to be frustrated
    Calvino Rabeni: The gold symbolized the value of the real thing
    Calvino Rabeni: A misapplication of will
    Calvino Rabeni: Trying to not-want is also sometimes a misapplication of will
    Zon Quar: we avoid seeing ..as its so much more comfortable to dream
    Strannik Zipper: we can misapply will, thought or emotions
    Strannik Zipper: or avoid awareness
    Zon Quar: playing hide and seek
    Calvino Rabeni: Buddhist and Christian sensibilities of this are somewhat divergent
    Strannik Zipper: I think we particularly resist those problems that challenge our identity - who we think we are or should be
    Zon Quar: yes
    Strannik Zipper: How so, Cal?
    Calvino Rabeni: But, the identity is like the Nasrudin story - things just seem like they would work so much better out in the light
    Zon Quar: its an ego thing too...the bigger the problem..the bigger i am if i solve or try to solve it ..
    Calvino Rabeni: I was thinking of some religious ideas, and they are kind of stereotype ways of dealing with suffering
    Strannik Zipper: as opposed to looking for them where they really are?
    Calvino Rabeni: yes, that
    Calvino Rabeni: people play to their conceived strengths - that is identity
    Calvino Rabeni: not reality
    Calvino Rabeni: no one thinks - hmmm, let me try to do things the hard way
    Zon Quar: i think we do unconsciously
    Calvino Rabeni: I don't think that
    Zon Quar: to feel important
    Calvino Rabeni: Perhaps one has a rationale to suffer usefully
    Zon Quar: to get attention
    Calvino Rabeni: There are 2 topics going on here, my attention is divided
    Zon Quar: lol
    Calvino Rabeni: A christian idea about dealing with suffering - prayers
    Calvino Rabeni: For instance - "thy will be done" - and "lord, have mercy on my soul"
    Calvino Rabeni: A buddhist idea - "there is no me" - "I have no desire"
    Calvino Rabeni: Both stereotypes, both seem useful
    Zon Quar: the common nominator to both is the idea of a separate ego as the cause of suffering
    Zon Quar: my will = ego
    Calvino Rabeni: Strannik may have some insight into both religious worlds
    Strannik Zipper: Hmmmm....I think they are both complex, and the experience of doing it may be different from the idea of it
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, they are both gateways to be walked through
    Calvino Rabeni: Formulaic thinking about profound issues like that - probably adds to suffering
    Strannik Zipper: for example, we may be used to activity engaging our will, and can not conceive of a means of "relinquishing" our wll that is ot passive, while what is needed may be very active, but out side our experence
    Strannik Zipper: ot=not
    Calvino Rabeni: Well said
    Calvino Rabeni: Letting it into the circle of "self" and letting it be dynamic
    Calvino Rabeni: Back to the much earlier question - do we live, or does the world live us.
    Zon Quar: yes
    Zon Quar: lol
    Zon Quar: we r the world says the song
    Strannik Zipper: is that will or non-will?
    Zon Quar: of whom ?
    Strannik Zipper: what is the difference between living or being lived?
    Zon Quar: consciousness ?
    Strannik Zipper: it sounds like a will question
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes
    Strannik Zipper: It feels like to me, not so much a will question, but a difference between that which we do naturally, effortlessly like washing dishes, and that which is difficult because we have some sort of will resistance
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm not very christian, but I think sin and conscience relate to this issue
    Strannik Zipper: You want to open all of the cans of worms! ;-)
    Zon Quar: the conlol
    Calvino Rabeni: The worms were added on, yes, but not there in essence
    Zon Quar: sin..what is it ?
    Calvino Rabeni: When I act, and it is not "natural"
    Zon Quar: hm
    Strannik Zipper: sin in greek is "hamartia" which means missing the mark like in archery
    Zon Quar: nods
    Calvino Rabeni: Yes, same idea
    Strannik Zipper: it implies that there is a mark to begin with
    Zon Quar: so its only unscliful action..no hard feelings
    Calvino Rabeni: yes
    Calvino Rabeni: in a way
    Calvino Rabeni: but skillful action implies not imposing one's own ideas on reality
    Zon Quar: nods
    Calvino Rabeni: natural action, not "my" action
    Zon Quar: the whole acts through me
    Zon Quar: no contardiction of wills
    Zon Quar: no suffering
    Calvino Rabeni: from that perspective, living and being lived are the same
    Zon Quar: but aware
    Zon Quar: of the process
    Calvino Rabeni: being off the mark - and aware of it - that is conscience
    Calvino Rabeni: or at least, conscience is there that awareness can show up
    Strannik Zipper: Cal - if not the same, at least it is not black and white - one or the other
    Strannik Zipper: so perhaps conscience is awareness of the mark
    Calvino Rabeni: yes, I would say it must include that awareness
    Calvino Rabeni: and awareness of self and one's actions
    Zon Quar: i think conscience is different from consciousness
    Calvino Rabeni: I can't see conscience happening without self-awareness
    Strannik Zipper: then there is a further problem - I am aware of missing the mark when I had the ability to hit it
    Strannik Zipper: or I am aware of missing the mark, although I tried to hit it but wasnot able to
    Calvino Rabeni: second case is different? no blame
    Zon Quar: if u r aware..u cant do anything wrong
    Calvino Rabeni: as in the Book of Changes - concept of the superior man
    Strannik Zipper: it would be easy to conclude that - except sometimes in that case, the conscience is still rather loud
    Zon Quar: to hit the mark is to miss
    Calvino Rabeni: no blame I think means, did not diverge from Tao
    Zon Quar: make a goal separte from u
    Zon Quar: to be aware
    Zon Quar: is the point
    Zon Quar: not the mark
    Calvino Rabeni: What is the "loud conscience" - is that like an attitude?
    Strannik Zipper: I think it is a definite awareness
    Zon Quar: no
    Strannik Zipper: clarity
    Zon Quar: its the societys voice in u
    Zon Quar: aying
    Zon Quar: good or bad
    Calvino Rabeni: That is not true conscience
    Calvino Rabeni: it is the stereotype - and it is the obscuring factor
    Zon Quar: thats why i understand conscience different from consciousness
    Strannik Zipper: Zon - that is also a possibility - there is real conscience and the more "programmed conscience"
    Zon Quar: but im not native speaker
    Calvino Rabeni: consciousness that is cognizant of right action - might be called conscience
    Zon Quar: it depends on definitions
    Strannik Zipper: programmed conscience being imposed ideas, norms etc.
    Calvino Rabeni: consciousness that is passive / nodual - probably not
    Zon Quar: my definition would go like this: if u r aware..u cant do anythng "wrong"..if not aware..u do all "wrong" even if doing good to others unconscioulsy ..lol
    Strannik Zipper: where as real conscience (as I am proposing it) does not depend exclusively on training, culture etc.
    Calvino Rabeni: right
    Calvino Rabeni: I also use the idea "spiritual discrimination"
    Strannik Zipper: Cal - I think you are onto something - non-dual awareness includes others - if I mistreat others I feel the pain myself
    Calvino Rabeni: Training / culture is a help, overall
    Zon Quar: all good and bad discrimination depends on the goal u want to achieve
    Calvino Rabeni: Discrimination is knowing when to accept and when to go against the programmed pattern
    Calvino Rabeni: Discrimination as a noun - a sensibility - an awareness
    Strannik Zipper: that sounds right
    Calvino Rabeni: not as a verb relative to a particular situation
    Zon Quar: hm
    Zon Quar: discrimiate sunds to me ..making a difference
    Strannik Zipper: If I am an insensitive selfish git, I can trample all over your feelings and not be bothered
    Calvino Rabeni: and knowing the difference
    Zon Quar: between good and bad ?
    Strannik Zipper: If I have cultivated awareness and I am aware of your feelings and such, I will feel pain if I cause you pain
    Calvino Rabeni: good and bad are kind of relative, but - the ability to see the effects of action would require awareness and discrimination - not to cause more suffering
    Calvino Rabeni: for oneself and for others
    Strannik Zipper: the foundation of the Golden Rule is awareness of others
    Zon Quar: but it means u r differetn from others
    Zon Quar: u r separte
    Strannik Zipper: more awareness = less separation, yes?
    Calvino Rabeni: I think the Rule points to the idea of not being different than others
    Zon Quar: waht if u feel u r one with others
    Zon Quar: and there is no separation really¨
    Zon Quar: is there good or bad
    Strannik Zipper: If I am sensitively aware of you, I will be more considerate of how things affect you, yeah?
    Zon Quar: if i feel u r me, id feel the same
    Zon Quar: and aware we r just playing to be separate
    Strannik Zipper: in this case it would appear that more aware = more sensitive conscience
    Calvino Rabeni: By this logic, one's own suffering is inflicted on others
    Calvino Rabeni: Seems so, Stran
    Zon Quar: but if i believe u r separate of me..why should i care of u
    Strannik Zipper: What do you mean by that Cal?
    Calvino Rabeni: If we are not separate, and have similar levels of sensitivity to one another, than if I suffer, you will feel it.
    Calvino Rabeni: Thus to inflict on myself is to inflict on you
    Calvino Rabeni: It is also implied by the golden rule
    Zon Quar: yes Cal
    Strannik Zipper: Yes, I will be more sensitive, and will bear more suffering in that regard
    Calvino Rabeni: The corrolary is - if you take another's suffering on - be able to do something with it
    Zon Quar: to make him more aware
    Strannik Zipper: that sounds very much like what a saint or bodhisattva does
    Zon Quar: or to try
    Calvino Rabeni: it does
    Strannik Zipper: so as a result of growing in awareness, I will suffer more, but what if I don't see that suffering as a problem ?
    Zon Quar: lol
    Calvino Rabeni: yes both true
    Zon Quar: yes
    Zon Quar: or u feel the pain
    Strannik Zipper: maybe its a solution
    Zon Quar: but not suffer
    Zon Quar: u r sensitive
    Zon Quar: and act
    Calvino Rabeni: Act, yes,will requires sensitivity but is more active
    Strannik Zipper: brb
    Zon Quar: so is there a problem ?
    Strannik Zipper: hahaha
    Zon Quar: i think Osho put it this way..
    Zon Quar: life is not a problem to be solved
    Zon Quar: but a mystery to be lived
    Strannik Zipper: My cat just jumped on a table and broke an heirloom - I have to see if I want to consider that to be a probllem ;-)
    Calvino Rabeni: I'm not familiar with buddhist ideas - I assume the bodhisattva idea involves conscious suffering and help - does it imply transformation of the suffering?
    Calvino Rabeni: I wasn't an Osho follower but many friends were - he had a lot to say
    Zon Quar: i think buddha said ..there is an end to suffering
    Strannik Zipper: Calvino, I can't say with any authority, but I would guess so
    Strannik Zipper: perhaps suffering is transformed into compassion
    Calvino Rabeni: When it comes down to it, life is mostly guesswork
    Calvino Rabeni: That makes sense to me
    Strannik Zipper: at least there is always an undocumented feature
    Calvino Rabeni: :)
    Strannik Zipper: I've enjoyed this discussion, but I've got to go - Cal do you want to grab the log?
    Strannik Zipper: or did Pema get it?
    Calvino Rabeni: Pema got it \
    Zon Quar: me 2, happy thihs year to u both
    Calvino Rabeni: Funny, Strannik - compassion as the undocumented feature of suffering
    Calvino Rabeni: the cheat
    Strannik Zipper: good things to ponder to begin a decade!
    Calvino Rabeni: Good talking to you - see you later
    Strannik Zipper: Happy New Year!!!!
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